The Grizzly Way...

Ok Big Brains help me out. As much as I love my Pels it feels like every time I look up the effing Grizzlies are stealing a march on us. Drafting Brandon Clarke last year? Check. Snagging Justise Winslow from Miami at the trade deadline? Check. Somehow turning guys like Dillon Brooks and Grayson Allen into legitimate NBA players? Check!

Now comes this draft where we are loaded up with picks and they?ve got jack squat yet somehow they come out of it with Desmond Bane, Xavier Tillman, Robert Woodard and Killian Tillie?-all of whom stand a good chance to be decent role players on cheap deals?and we wind up with a bunch of picks vesting on the 12th of never all because as a small market team we have to stack up assets in order to compete in the NBA.

This just in: Memphis is a small market team!!! How is it that they can so flagrantly draft actual prospects to develop and help their squad while we are required to hoard our picks like Scrooge McDuck until...when exactly? Bradley Beal magically becomes available and is willing to sign an extension to play here?

We?ve already lucked out and won the lottery?twice! Two generational talents who have left us in good shape to build our team for the future. Start already. Stop looking to the horizon and start drafting and developing high character role players brought up in your culture. At this point it feels like For the Pels it?s always too early until it?s too late....

They had two good drafts based on doing what I constantly say teams should do but which they rarely will: Memphis has drafted people who are good at basketball.

We could have had Tillman. We could have had Bane. We could have had Tillie. We decided to trade the picks for future stuff, which may or may not pay off in the long run, but for now we know that their result is at least so far nothing, whereas their end-game has already been reached: they used the picks.

Now, its too early to judge. It's not like we're in a bad position either: we have Zion, Ingram, Kira, Jax, all of whom are either already good or who I believe can be starter calibre players at the minimum, and we have a millionty one future assets to either draft or trade for other high calibre players. We're not in a bad situation. Whether we or Memphis will look better 5 years from now, it's impossible to say, but we're both in good spots now just using different approaches.

That said, draft good basketball players. Crazy how that works.

I cannot tell you how significant it is for Grizzlies fans that the team finally seems to have found a "type" and is actively seeking those types of players out -- high IQ, overachievers, versatile, skilled, "guys who can just play". There is a real culture being cultivated.

— Peter Edmiston (@peteredmiston) November 19, 2020

Memphis fans seem to have noticed it too lol

I don't understand why we trade Hampton for a pick we won't see until 2023. Like wasn't making the playoffs the goal last year now we don't care about being competitive until 2024 or 2025? Once you draft Zion we are on the clock. I understand aiming for the future but the team needs to start showing promise while Zion is on his rookie deal.

How about some of us aren't envious of any of the low ceiling players they churned in the 2nd half of this draft? And trust me, many grizzlies fans would love nothing more than to upgrade Dillon Brooks.

Relax your nerves. Let this franchise do it its way and let Memphis do them.

Also did they draft Woodard? That looks like a Kings pick. Thought Memphis gave up 40.

So you're looking at Bane, Tillman and a 2-way for Tillie vs Kira Lewis and a 2-way for Naji Marshall...plus another future 1st?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I don't understand why we trade Hampton for a pick we won't see until 2023. Like wasn't making the playoffs the goal last year now we don't care about being competitive until 2024 or 2025? Once you draft Zion we are on the clock. I understand aiming for the future but the team needs to start showing promise while Zion is on his rookie deal.

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These future picks aren't for us to use to draft. They are to use in a trade. So when X star comes available we can throw 5, 6 firsts at the team if we have to without mortgaging everything.

They will get used for a very good to great player before Zions rookie deal is up. And teams prefer a future pick to something you already drove off the lot. Example -- what would have more value in a trade right now, NAW or our 2021 pick? The future pick of course, even if it was lotto protected. Because humans are optimists about things they haven't seen and pessimists about things they have seen that weren't great.

Griff is getting these picks to use on a real player. We aren't drafting a guy for ourselves in 2023 with the Nuggets pick

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I don't understand why we trade Hampton for a pick we won't see until 2023. Like wasn't making the playoffs the goal last year now we don't care about being competitive until 2024 or 2025? Once you draft Zion we are on the clock. I understand aiming for the future but the team needs to start showing promise while Zion is on his rookie deal.

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We have three young players who all still need development in Zion, NAW, and Hayes. We also have Lonzo, BI, and Melli who are all still developing. We have Didi sitting overseas developing still. We have enough cooking in a short season on the development front. We've added one very good young prospect who will not get much development this year because of the short offseason. I think it was very wise to kick this can down a few years. We haven't lost anything other than adding several more young players we wouldn't have the resources to develop right now anyway. If we're going to inject anything in the short term, it should be some veteran role players to help the young guys. Patience.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

How about some of us aren't envious of any of the low ceiling players they churned in the 2nd half of this draft? And trust me, many grizzlies fans would love nothing more than to upgrade Dillon Brooks.

Relax your nerves. Let this franchise do it its way and let Memphis do them.

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Haha.

True. These guys are more coveted my internet forums than NBA teams and even the internet forums admit these guys probably would have been late 2nd rounders to undrafted in a better draft.

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Originally Posted by DarkHornet

We have three young players who all still need development in Zion, NAW, and Hayes. We also have Lonzo, BI, and Melli who are all still developing. We have Didi sitting overseas developing still. We have enough cooking in a short season on the development front. We've added one very good young prospect who will not get much development this year because of the short offseason. I think it was very wise to kick this can down a few years. We haven't lost anything other than adding several more young players we wouldn't have the resources to develop right now anyway. If we're going to inject anything in the short term, it should be some veteran role players to help the young guys. Patience.

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And honestly, if you watch RJ Hampton attempt defense, you want to kill it with fire. If you want players now there is a whole free agency that hasnt even begun yet.

Memphis is slowly creeping towards the abyss that is the 5th-8th seed in the playoffs. None of the moves you mentioned are championship moves. They're moves that will put them into position to compete for a playoff spot, maybe. Brooks, Allen, Winslow, Bane, Tillman, Tillie, Woodard--none of these dudes are moving the needle. Honestly, if any of these guys were on the Pels, we'd be begging SVG to play NAW, Hayes, Kira to over them.

What about at Ja-JJJ-Clarke core makes you think this is a future championship caliber team. To me, this team is building the same team they had all throughout the previous decade. They're good enough to be in the playoffs every year but never good enough to seriously compete. In addition to the low ceiling players with basically no trade value mentioned above, they have minimal draft picks outside of their own for the next 7 years. If that's what you're into, good luck.

OKC is the team we should be afraid of

For the Pels: this is where you take your swings on big time talent. We're still in the early stages of a rebuild. We don't need to draft 4 guys who will be 7th-10th men; we need one guy who could turn into a star. Do the same thing next year.

I actually think this draft was pretty deep for solid role players. I disagree that the draft picks we gave up didn't have any value. However, I am completely okay with what we did. We have a plan and we are going through with it.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

I actually think this draft was pretty deep for solid role players. I disagree that the draft picks we gave up didn't have any value. However, I am completely okay with what we did. We have a plan and we are going through with it.

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I would say trading current picks for future picks slightly devalues picks. That is how it is looked at in the NFL. However, they have 7 rounds. Offsetting that would mean getting multiple picks back on a trade into the future. But it appears the 2nd round trades were pick for pick and none of those appear to be in 2021. In the "I don't give a d*( mode you move picks to a time and place you think you will need them or use them as draft capital. I am trying to figure out how the Denver first round pick two years from now is better than number 24. Multiple picks or a pick and a player might have made better sense.

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Originally Posted by Lee2000

I am trying to figure out how the Denver first round pick two years from now is better than number 24. Multiple picks or a pick and a player might have made better sense.

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So its not that the pick is more valuable in a vacuum. The point is that, in 2 years, the pick will more than likely be more valuable as an asset because whichever player we would've drafted at 24 likely will be valueless in 2 years. The draft pick will not lose value until the pick is made, and could potentially gain value if something drastic happens with the Nuggets.

For example, 2 years ago, picks 20-30 were:
Josh Okogie, Grayson Allen, Chandler Hutchison, Aaron Holiday, Anfernee Simons, Moritz Wagner, Landry Shamet, Robert Williams, Dzanan Musa, and Omari Spellman.
Based on the trade last night, I think Shamet is the only player of that group who has more value today than the night they were drafted.

That's why everyone makes the "drive the car off the lot" analogy.

Thanks for the feed back. Good thoughts.

I suppose it boils down to a philosophical difference. I much prefer the baseball model: Draft good prospects, make good use of your G-League operation, bring players along in your system, who reflect your culture and play with toughness character and a high basketball IQ. Very little of this is getting done in college now with early graduation. Some guys will pan out as contributors, maybe even key pieces. Many won't. But the key is you develop a culture, a deeper pool of competitive players that perhaps have a higher value to you than they do on the open market.

McNamara has written extensively about how developing young talent is a sucker play in the NBA because so many guys don't become valuable contributors until they are on their second or third teams. This seems at least in part a cultural choice franchises make not to hang on to their own talent. And there are no guarantees that stock piling resources to obtain "real" players down the road is going to work out either. We hung on for years and years in the Davis-era for the big roster-transforming deal that never materialized--until Davis's departure

As a fan, it's more satisfying to see the franchise--like the Grizzlies--draft good, smart prospects and try to develop them and/or deal them while cultivating a distinct identity and team culture. I get that draft picks are a purer form of currency, but they aren't exactly money on deposit. Will Denver's future first rounder be better than 24? Will the pick swaps with the Bucks ever be executed? Neither are a sure thing. We've seen enough top tier teams--the Spurs, the Warriors, the Bucks--surround their franchise players with very good role players taken later in the draft and developed in-house (Parker/Ginobili; Green/Looney; Middleton/Brogdon), to know that model can work as well.

I think constantly deferring assets in hopes of the big score down the road can be its own kind of false promise. We've got our Tim Duncan our Steph our LeBron (or as close as we are likely to get). I'd rather use our later draft picks to surround Zion and Brandon with smart role players that we develop in-house rather than continually banking future assets for theoretical moves. We actually have enough assets to do some of both. Hard time seeing that Charlotte's 2023 2nd rounder is going to be the key to swinging some future blockbuster deal.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

So its not that the pick is more valuable in a vacuum. The point is that, in 2 years, the pick will more than likely be more valuable as an asset because whichever player we would've drafted at 24 likely will be valueless in 2 years. The draft pick will not lose value until the pick is made, and could potentially gain value if something drastic happens with the Nuggets.

For example, 2 years ago, picks 20-30 were:
Josh Okogie, Grayson Allen, Chandler Hutchison, Aaron Holiday, Anfernee Simons, Moritz Wagner, Landry Shamet, Robert Williams, Dzanan Musa, and Omari Spellman.
Based on the trade last night, I think Shamet is the only player of that group who has more value today than the night they were drafted.

That's why everyone makes the "drive the car off the lot" analogy.

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In fairness, that is true, but last year Brandon Clarke, Grant Williams, and Matisse Thybulle all went between 20 and 30 and they're all guys who I think have shown a lot of promise. I know people like to get whiny about Clarke because he was an older rookie, but the reality is that he's good at basketball and there's something important about that in the NBA.

A lot of fans do take the Simpsons Mystery Box approach. Do you take a yacht, or the mystery box? Well, you gotta take the mystery box! There could be anything inside, even a yacht!

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

In fairness, that is true, but last year Brandon Clarke, Grant Williams, and Matisse Thybulle all went between 20 and 30 and they're all guys who I think have shown a lot of promise. I know people like to get whiny about Clarke because he was an older rookie, but the reality is that he's good at basketball and there's something important about that in the NBA.

A lot of fans do take the Simpsons Mystery Box approach. Do you take a yacht, or the mystery box? Well, you gotta take the mystery box! There could be anything inside, even a yacht!

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Wrong cartoon young grasshopper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZpI...nel=CutawayGuy

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Wrong cartoon young grasshopper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZpIog7e-R4&ab_channel=CutawayGuy

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Eh, close enough.*

*and with that, I anger everyone who was a teenager in the 90s, during prime Simpsons era

haha yeah simpsons mystery box episode is the washer and dryer.

Just as a cap off to this discussion, Sam Vecenie at The Athletic has now weighed in on the Grizzlies draft night...

Memphis. The Grizzlies entered the night with just one pick, at No. 40. They ended it with the Nos. 19, 27, and 40 overall players on my board. And all they had to do was give up three future second-round picks plus pick No. 40. It’s very clear that they have a type. They clearly want guys who are tough dudes with great frames, a lot of skill, and a real backing of production. All of the guys they took could not be better fits with the core of Ja Morant and Jaren Jackson Jr.

Desmond Bane at No. 30 was my 19th-ranked player, an elite-level shooter in college who consistent hit over 40 percent from 3 over the course of his four-year collegiate career. He’s also a really smart player, a good decision-maker, and a dedicated team defender, despite lacking length. I think he’s going to be a perfect fit.

They then moved up to No. 35 to get Xavier Tillman, who I think has a chance to develop into a perfectly complementary starter next to Jackson Jr. Tillman’s rugged physicality around the basket as a rebounder will help shore up Jackson’s biggest flaw. His incredible positioning defensively will allow Jackson to continue his freewheeling ways as a rim protector. And he’ll be an extremely strong complement to Morant in pick-and-rolls while the team runs Jackson off of the screening actions that it loves in order to get him loose from distance.

I had Tillman at No. 27 on my board. I get that it’s a big call to say that a second-round pick is going to end up being a starter, but I actually think this is about the perfect situation from Tillman to reach that upside. Finally, after the draft, the team swooped in and grabbed Killian Tillie on a two-way deal. He went undrafted because of an extensive injury history at Gonzaga. Had he gotten a clean bill of health, it would have been very easy to imagine him in the first round, as he’s that skilled as a shooter, passer and defender. Hopefully he stays healthy.

We’ve added 4 rookies, well 7 if you count the draft & stash in Didi along with undrafted Cheatham & Marshall, in Griff’s first 2 drafts with the franchise. Some teams may not add any rookies in an offseason, is that Dell Demps lol. We have plenty of young guys to work with, with the possibility of many more to come lol

So let me get this straight, the bellyaching is because the Pelicans only drafted 1 rookie this year and Memphis drafted 2 rookies? All teams will have two 2-ways on their roster.

Since last year:

Pelicans drafted 5 players and signed another from overseas. That's 6 rookies since last year, 5 of whom are still on the roster except stashed Didi who we saw in SL. This includes 3 lottery picks.

Grizzlies drafted 4 players. Not aware of any stashed players. This includes 1 lottery pick.

The Pelicans also have a war chest of draft picks all the way out to 2027. The Grizzlies may not have a 1st next year (if it lands 8 - 14), and only their own after that.

So I'm not quit sure how the Pelicans just have a bunch of picks vesting on the 12th of never, when they've got more young talent and lottery picks on the current roster to develop than Memphis does.

As far as non-drafted players to develop, I think I'd rather Brandon Ingram and Josh Hart to Dillon Brooks and Grayson Allen.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

So let me get this straight, the bellyaching is because the Pelicans only drafted 1 rookie this year and Memphis drafted 2 rookies? All teams will have two 2-ways on their roster.

Since last year:

Pelicans drafted 5 players and signed another from overseas. That's 6 rookies since last year, 5 of whom are still on the roster except stashed Didi who we saw in SL. This includes 3 lottery picks.

Grizzlies drafted 4 players. Not aware of any stashed players. This includes 1 lottery pick.

The Pelicans also have a war chest of draft picks all the way out to 2027. The Grizzlies may not have a 1st next year (if it lands 8 - 14), and only their own after that.

So I'm not quit sure how the Pelicans just have a bunch of picks vesting on the 12th of never, when they've got more young talent and lottery picks on the current roster to develop than Memphis does.

As far as non-drafted players to develop, I think I'd rather Brandon Ingram and Josh Hart to Dillon Brooks and Grayson Allen.

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As Mac says, 90% of who you draft ends up on other teams anyway.

I'm only interested in the real top, top end talent. The other holes get filled by trading/FA