I agree with Jake here...

Like him or hate him... I can't say that he's wrong.

Says he thinks Ingram will be re signed and no major changes incoming

Ingrams shot chart is terrible

Players don't buy into the offense..

Would like to see Hawkins , but the coach didn't prepare him in the reg season and now can't throw him into the fire

If CJ can't make a shot play Dyson

So basically he talks about the issues this team has, but thinks the front Office will just use Zion to save the day

Yep. Things probably won’ t change. Gayle and the board just happy to be in playoffs. Agrees Willie has no clue how to develop talent or rotations.

If Ingram is resigned, it has to be for less money than we thought he'd get. Surely he's lost money with this performance.

Personally I think we should be exploring ways to move on from him, but not by doing something desperate and making the team worse.

The thing is I think Ingram could force some team like Detroit into paying him. He's not worth that contract, but all it takes is one team and this team will not just let him walk.

You have to move him though, even if it's for less than they would like. Locking yourself into that deal is a death nail. Zion is the franchise player and Ingram doesn't fit.

X

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mount_Zion

The thing is I think Ingram could force some team like Detroit into paying him. He's not worth that contract, but all it takes is one team and this team will not just let him walk.

You have to move him though, even if it's for less than they would like. Locking yourself into that deal is a death nail. Zion is the franchise player and Ingram doesn't fit.

---

That's the rub. You have to choose between them, it's fairly clear that relying on them both is an endless cycle to failure. They don't play particularly well when they're together and apart, you have a team that's not really committing to either of their strengths.

So when you're forced to choose between them, you have Zion - who is a better player on a friendlier contract - or Ingram, who's worse and will cost more.

The choice has been made for us by circumstance and the salary cap. If Griff can't see it, he's an idiot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mount_Zion

The thing is I think Ingram could force some team like Detroit into paying him. He's not worth that contract, but all it takes is one team and this team will not just let him walk.

You have to move him though, even if it's for less than they would like. Locking yourself into that deal is a death nail. Zion is the franchise player and Ingram doesn't fit.

---

Locking yourself into what deal exactly? Do you still think Ingram is getting 50 mil a year?

The next six months or so we will be inundated with all kinds of bogus takes on why the sky is falling and it will mostly ignore the actual reason for why the sky always falls......injuries. But it's boring to just say "injuries" and "stay healthy" over and over again. Season after season. So we create the lesser issues.

Brandon Ingram is like AD. He can't carry a franchise through the postseason alone. He is an AMAZING compliment #2 guy to someone who can. I have never seen anyone claim BI is THAT guy. So to take him when he is forced to be THAT guy and is failing at it is disingenuous. Same thing with CJ when we try to force him to be the #2 guy.

There isn't a single team in this league that would win a series without their top guy. If we had Zion and SGA were the one injured, we would sweep the Thunder. Without Jokic, the Nuges would be out in weeks. We all know this. It's just boring to say it over and over again so we embellish these lesser things.

The only question this franchise needs to really be asking is "can we keep everyone healthy?"

Ignore everything else. All that other stuff is to generate clicks because the reality is too boring and simple.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Brandon Ingram is like AD. He can't carry a franchise through the postseason alone. He is an AMAZING compliment #2 guy to someone who can. I have never seen anyone claim BI is THAT guy. So to take him when he is forced to be THAT guy and is failing at it is disingenuous.

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I respect you far too much as a poster and I've seen you on this forum for far too many years to think you believe that for a second.

We've both seen multiple people claim that. Especially when the Phoenix series was going on a few years back.

In any case, I completely disagree that ''all that other stuff is to generate clicks''. We are 5 full seasons deep into Zion and BI as a tandem, and have won zero playoff series and fewer playoff games than fingers on one hand. Whether you like it or not, whether you think it's injuries or not, this team has NOT won anything. And now the time is here to either commit to it with no real ability to pivot, or move off it.

It's entirely reasonable to want to pivot before completely committing long term to something you have no proof can work, and a fair amount of proof it can't. Even if you think the only reason we've not seen the proof is injury, that alone is enough: how many seasons are we supposed to waste waiting. Five apparently isn't enough. Seven? 10? We gotta wait 12 years before we decide it's just not working? What's your limit. Are we still going to be trying to get 60 games of Zion and BI healthy in 2030, and saying ''well, we can't move on, the ONLY QUESTION we need to be asking is health?'' even when in the 400 games they'll have played together by that point they've produced a net +0 rating the entire time?

It's absurd at the 5 year marker to act like all we have to do is be patient and see if we can luck out on a healthy season. Absolutely absurd. That's even without pretending people didn't hype BI up more than they should have, because they did and we both saw it.

Willie did not even make the list. Not a wasted click. Nobody buying the injury B.S. anymore. Enjoy Galveston!

The complete voting results for the 2023-24 NBA Coach of the Year. pic.twitter.com/QatGZpJjYj

— NBA Communications (@NBAPR) April 28, 2024

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Locking yourself into what deal exactly? Do you still think Ingram is getting 50 mil a year?

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Some team like Detroit would offer him it or another bottom feeder. Detroit isn't going to get a better player than Ingram to sign there.

Quote:

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There isn't a single team in this league that would win a series

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Sure, but they might not even win a game. The Heat roster can win a game against the Celtics.

Oh and I don't want to go back in time, but if they handled the first game against the Lakers and got the 6th seed they wouldn't have needed to be stuck in the play in and Zion is still standing maybe

The pels lineup of

Zion
Ingram
CJ
Herb
Jonas

115 off rating

116 def rating

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mount_Zion

Sure, but they might not even win a game. The Heat roster can win a game against the Celtics.

Oh and I don't want to go back in time, but if they handled the first game against the Lakers and got the 6th seed they wouldn't have needed to be stuck in the play in and Zion is still standing maybe

---

ill go back in time...if we dont loose to houston twice,,memphis twice and the spurs twice then we wouldnt have been in the play in and zion may have played in his first playoff series ...

The announcer in the suns game said,when the twolves were trying to get gobert from the jazz..the owner made the coach promise him that he would not take gobert off the court when teams go small against them....and so far the coach stuck with his promise.......

The twolves owner said that the jazz were taking gobert off the court when teams went small against the jazz and he didn't want to make that mistake since the twolves were trying to get him.....

Maybe Benson should have had that talk with Willie about Jonas......

The more I am looking at this roster and the more I overthink, the more I realized we aren't even close to becoming a championship team like the Nuggets/Celtics/Wolves.

*sigh*

This team is desperately missing a mega super star at the SG position such as Booker or Edwards.

Love Herb, but he has no offense to be putting up 25 PPG consistently.

There is no doubt that CJ McCullum has a great season shooting the ball. That said he was 22% from deep in this years playoffs and was 33 % from deep last time we were in the playoffs. Neither year did he average 40% or above from the field.
This year he is averaging 4.3 turnovers a game while being a
defensive liability.
His leadership has been invaluable and he was a straight sniper this year on catch and shoots. He will be 33 next year and we have drafted guards in the 1st two years in a row to replace him. He's the most overpaid player we have and it only makes sense to move him to in order to keep the team together from a fiscal perspective.

Ingram has shot 40% from deep both times we were in the playoffs and over 40% from the field as well. All that he needs to do is listen to coaches and take more threes and less difficult twos.

Saying we should let Ingram go is nuts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mount_Zion

Some team like Detroit would offer him it or another bottom feeder. Detroit isn't going to get a better player than Ingram to sign there.

---

I doubt anyone is giving Ingram a max deal

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fullcourtpress

There is no doubt that CJ McCullum has a great season shooting the ball. That said he was 22% from deep in this years playoffs and was 33 % from deep last time we were in the playoffs. Neither year did he average 40% or above from the field.
This year he is averaging 4.3 turnovers a game while being a
defensive liability.
His leadership has been invaluable and he was a straight sniper this year on catch and shoots. He will be 33 next year and we have drafted guards in the 1st two years in a row to replace him. He's the most overpaid player we have and it only makes sense to move him to in order to keep the team together from a fiscal perspective.

Ingram has shot 40% from deep both times we were in the playoffs and over 40% from the field as well. All that he needs to do is listen to coaches and take more threes and less difficult twos.

Saying we should let Ingram go is nuts

---

BI has been abysmal. There is no defending his play in the offseason. Saying he is shooting 40% from 3 is a bit disingenuous. He has taken a whopping 5 threes in the postseason. He seems like he just refuses to take 3s despite constant requests to do so. He turns down open 3s to take contested 2s on a regular basis. I don't think anyone is saying to let go of BI, but to consider trading him instead of overpaying him. It really seems he and Zion do not work well together. BI is very content on playing a lot of ISO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WhyHornetsWhy

The more I am looking at this roster and the more I overthink, the more I realized we aren't even close to becoming a championship team like the Nuggets/Celtics/Wolves.

*sigh*

This team is desperately missing a mega super star at the SG position such as Booker or Edwards.

Love Herb, but he has no offense to be putting up 25 PPG consistently.

---

They might be able to trade for Donovan Mitchell

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mount_Zion

They might be able to trade for Donovan Mitchell

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Why stop there? Trade Ingram for DE'AARON FOX works on the trade machine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Why stop there? Trade Ingram for DE'AARON FOX works on the trade machine.

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Just imagine a timeline in which we draft Garland instead of trading the 4th pick away. Just imagine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

BI has been abysmal. There is no defending his play in the offseason. Saying he is shooting 40% from 3 is a bit disingenuous. He has taken a whopping 5 threes in the postseason. He seems like he just refuses to take 3s despite constant requests to do so. He turns down open 3s to take contested 2s on a regular basis. I don't think anyone is saying to let go of BI, but to consider trading him instead of overpaying him. It really seems he and Zion do not work well together. BI is very content on playing a lot of ISO.

---

This.

Arguing that BI has been a 40% postseason shooter from 3 is like saying Zion is a career 34.1% 3pt shooter so he's nearly league average. Complete obfuscation of the reality by use of a number that applies to a sample size that nobody takes seriously.

Gotta trade BI. Not because he's garbage, because he isn't (overall: he's playing like it right now). Not because he can't be a good player on a decent team, as maybe the 3rd option or potentially 2nd if everything else breaks right. But because the fit is dodgy with our superstar and the price to retain him is unacceptable. He wants Number One Megastar money to be maybe the third option in a year or two if Trey continues improving, and his fit makes even filling that secondary or tertiary role difficult.

Move on from BI. Good luck to him elsewhere.

Do not tie up any more money with Ingram. This experiment is over. It does not work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

Just imagine a timeline in which we draft Garland instead of trading the 4th pick away. Just imagine.

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Yup

It does not work. That's not out of animosity toward Brandon. But you can't have two main stars who don't shoot threes and compete in the modern NBA. Keep Brandon and you'll be running uphill against good teams for the next five years. I have no doubt a pairing of Zion/Ingram will get you to around 50+/- wins a year, if healthy (and that's a big if). But--barring a radical change in either player's game--you are not going to get the volume of 3-point shooting you need to compete against the top teams and get to conference finals or win a chip.

There are no solutions, just trade-offs. Is it riskier to trade Ingram and face the uncertainty that you can make the roster better by giving up on a proven but limited player that hamstrings your team. Or is it better to lock yourself in with that player and hope some combination of motivation, coaching alchemy and good fortune propels a roster you know to be pretty good but flawed into contention. I'd opt for path one--every time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by new city champ

It does not work. That's not out of animosity toward Brandon. But you can't have two main stars who don't shoot threes and compete in the modern NBA. Keep Brandon and you'll be running uphill against good teams for the next five years. I have no doubt a pairing of Zion/Ingram will get you to around 50+/- wins a year, if healthy (and that's a big if). But--barring a radical change in either player's game--you are not going to get the volume of 3-point shooting you need to compete against the top teams and get to conference finals or win a chip.

There are no solutions, just trade-offs. Is it riskier to trade Ingram and face the uncertainty that you can make the roster better by giving up on a proven but limited player that hamstrings your team. Or is it better to lock yourself in with that player and hope some combination of motivation, coaching alchemy and good fortune propels a roster you know to be pretty good but flawed into contention. I'd opt for path one--every time.

---

Great post! It all comes down to what ownership wants. Does Ms. B want to compete for titles or is she happy with a competitive team that will make the playoffs most years but may never get to the top? I suppose with the team as constructed there's a very slight chance everything breaks the right way and they sneak into a conference finals appearance. I just don't see a way this team ever gets to the finals as currently constructed unless Murphy takes a major leap and maybe Hawkins gets to play and goes nuclear.

Oh yeah, and health. Everyone finds a way to stay healthy the entire year.

I'm old enough to remember when suggesting trading BI for KD would get you laughed at

For those of you that want Ingram gone so bad.. who do you really think is going to come to NO willingly?? And of the willing, how many are of the same caliber as Ingram?

Keep Ingram with Zion, hope for a 3rd fringe all-star to join them, and get a new coach. Or move Ingram, and forget about getting the 3rd all-star. Then lose Zion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nichols

For those of you that want Ingram gone so bad.. who do you really think is going to come to NO willingly?? .

---

Don't know, don't care.

''But if you trade Ingram, you won't be contending and might lose Zion'' is not an argument when WITH Ingram we aren't contending and might lose Zion.

We had this same argument last year. ''Gotta keep the team together, see how far it can go, who knows!''

Why should this franchise pay through the nose to keep together a team that has won nothing. Nothing. I can understand going over the cap, entering the luxury tax, incurring penalties, if that's the price of keeping together a contender. This is not a contender. On what planet is it acceptable to enter cap torture to keep together a squad that continually underachieves?

5 years of Zion and Ingram together. Not one secure playoff run. Two total playoff game wins until today - maybe that becomes three tonight, but I doubt it.

How many years are we expected to just run it back, the contract situation getting worse and worse.

''hope for a 3rd fringe all star to join them'' HOW.

With WHAT money? With WHAT salary cap flexibility? We have a third fringe all-star now, you're saying some team is going to trade their guy for CJ and that'll make us better? Someone has a player that's more impactful than CJ but we're going to somehow acquire that player with CJ, without giving up either Herb or Trey?

This is what irritates me. People saying to move BI are saying to do so because of the actual, real life problems with the salary cap, and are suggesting actual, real life potential moves that we could look into to try and improve the situation.

People saying to keep BI are basically just saying ''welp, not gonna get anything better so just hope for someone to show up, I guess? Might help.''

And then that's being sold as the voice of reason. Absurdity.

Nichols is just an Ingram fanboy. Refuses to see reality both in on-court results and the reality of the New Orleans market/cap situation. Bigger concern is whether the front office is willing to make the smart decision.

And for what it's worth, the whole ''who will you get back that's as good as him'' argument means even less to me, because I've personally said multiple times that I'm happy to take back for example, two worse players with better fit.

Take this season for example. Let's say we wanted to trade BI. I've seen some Piston's fans proposing trading BI and our pick for Ivey and their pick.

Would I do that? No, Ivey isn't a position of need player and I don't rate him that highly.

Would I trade BI + 17 for Duren + Flynn + 1?

I think so. You can then move JV and Nance and try and shore up the PG position a little further, because you'd have Duren as a solid C option (I wanted him during his draft, and while I don't think he's as good as BI right now, I think the upside is there and he's already a huge rebounder and rim protector, both skills we need) and we'd be able to draft Alexandre Sarr at #1, and he's another mobile rim protecting big who's showing shooting potential which would be improved fit alongside Zion and would help us towards playing 5-out. As well as providing potential all-star upside for a cost controlled rookie deal.

We'd also get a near $30m trade exception, which in a season like this one where the luxury tax is going to come rushing in as it's the final season before the cap changes, would present a huge amount of opportunity to absorb larger contracts for players who are still good but maybe overpaid a little, in exchange for replenishing the 'war chest' of assets.

Would solve our C problems, give us an opportunity to try and address the PG issue, would re-set our salary cap timer by adding quality play on rookie deals, and potentially clear up the fit issues.

Edit: for clarity, Pistons obviously don't have the #1 pick locked down right now, that's just a hypothetical. I'd still do it even if they got #3 or something though, I do think there's obvious upside picks in the top 5

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

Just imagine a timeline in which we draft Garland instead of trading the 4th pick away. Just imagine.

---

Makes me sick whenever I think about it. Griffin has completely wasted almost every part of the AD trade.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nichols

For those of you that want Ingram gone so bad.. who do you really think is going to come to NO willingly?? And of the willing, how many are of the same caliber as Ingram?

Keep Ingram with Zion, hope for a 3rd fringe all-star to join them, and get a new coach. Or move Ingram, and forget about getting the 3rd all-star. Then lose Zion.

---

I really like BI. However, it really appears he and Zion do not fit together. If I have to choose, I choose Zion. We need a more modern NBA player that will open up the floor and let Zion work. I do not think we will get a player that is as good as BI, but hopefully we can get a player that fits with Zion and opens up cap to extend Trey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pr1840

Nichols is just an Ingram fanboy. Refuses to see reality both in on-court results and the reality of the New Orleans market/cap situation. Bigger concern is whether the front office is willing to make the smart decision.

---

You're clearly not working with a full deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I really like BI. However, it really appears he and Zion do not fit together. If I have to choose, I choose Zion. We need a more modern NBA player that will open up the floor and let Zion work. I do not think we will get a player that is as good as BI, but hopefully we can get a player that fits with Zion and opens up cap to extend Trey.

---

Zion's not staying with someone almost as good as Ingram.

I do think he stays with Ingram, plus another talent of that level. It's not so much about Ingram as it is having a player of that talent with another to pair with Zion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Don't know, don't care.

''But if you trade Ingram, you won't be contending and might lose Zion'' is not an argument when WITH Ingram we aren't contending and might lose Zion.

We had this same argument last year. ''Gotta keep the team together, see how far it can go, who knows!''

Why should this franchise pay through the nose to keep together a team that has won nothing. Nothing. I can understand going over the cap, entering the luxury tax, incurring penalties, if that's the price of keeping together a contender. This is not a contender. On what planet is it acceptable to enter cap torture to keep together a squad that continually underachieves?

5 years of Zion and Ingram together. Not one secure playoff run. Two total playoff game wins until today - maybe that becomes three tonight, but I doubt it.

How many years are we expected to just run it back, the contract situation getting worse and worse.

''hope for a 3rd fringe all star to join them'' HOW.

With WHAT money? With WHAT salary cap flexibility? We have a third fringe all-star now, you're saying some team is going to trade their guy for CJ and that'll make us better? Someone has a player that's more impactful than CJ but we're going to somehow acquire that player with CJ, without giving up either Herb or Trey?

This is what irritates me. People saying to move BI are saying to do so because of the actual, real life problems with the salary cap, and are suggesting actual, real life potential moves that we could look into to try and improve the situation.

People saying to keep BI are basically just saying ''welp, not gonna get anything better so just hope for someone to show up, I guess? Might help.''

And then that's being sold as the voice of reason. Absurdity.

---

The entire point.. is you need a 3rd all-star type player. With a better coach. If this team stays pat Zion is gone. Trade Ingram for better fits, Zion is gone. Get another all-star, he stay's and you're playing for something.

And yes, you'll have to pair a bad contract with an asset to move it. And after the playoffs there's going to be quite a few all-star talents available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nichols

The entire point.. is you need a 3rd all-star type player. With a better coach. If this team stays pat Zion is gone. Trade Ingram for better fits, Zion is gone. Get another all-star, he stay's and you're playing for something.

---

Fantasy land. Keep Ingram, you're not getting another star. Already outlined the problems with the contract situation and our position with relation to the cap. If you don't want to listen that's not my problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Fantasy land. Keep Ingram, you're not getting another star. Already outlined the problems with the contract situation and our position with relation to the cap. If you don't want to listen that's not my problem.

---

Of course it's not your problem. You're just a fan on a message board. We don't need to agree. You act like there aren't other teams in the league with 3 bloated contracts on their cap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Zion's not staying with someone almost as good as Ingram.

I do think he stays with Ingram, plus another talent of that level. It's not so much about Ingram as it is having a player of that talent with another to pair with Zion.

---

We cannot afford to keep BI AND get another talent of that level. Zion staying is not dependent on BI. He just wants to win. What we have now may not be the answer, especially if re-signing BI means jettisoning players like Trey, Naji, JV, Jose, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Fantasy land. Keep Ingram, you're not getting another star. Already outlined the problems with the contract situation and our position with relation to the cap. If you don't want to listen that's not my problem.

---

Don't bother Dae.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nichols

The entire point.. is you need a 3rd all-star type player. With a better coach. If this team stays pat Zion is gone. Trade Ingram for better fits, Zion is gone. Get another all-star, he stay's and you're playing for something.

---

You have no idea what will make Zion want to leave or stay. He is under contract for 4 more years. If he eventually wants to leave, so be it...hopefully he's healthy and we can get a giant trade haul for him. We already have 3rd all-star type players in CJ and Murphy (assuming continued improvement with Trey)...the issue is that this current roster has been proven to be a bad fit at the top. Financially locking in the top of the roster seems, at best, foolhardy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

Just imagine a timeline in which we draft Garland instead of trading the 4th pick away. Just imagine.

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Why? The team had Jrue and Lonzo Ball. Garland had major questions going into the draft, including injury concerns (played only 5 games in college). The draft was seen as a major drop off after the 3rd pick, who turned out to not be that great anyway.

There was not a ton of hype around getting Garland with that pick on this board if I recall, so why go back and wish about a player that ended up turning out better than expected? This scenario isn't anywhere close to Kings fans imagining that they drafted Luka.

If you want to imagine something, then why not just imagine a timeline where Zion and Lonzo weren't constantly injured?

I can remember clearly half the board pissed when Dyson Daniels was drafted. Not shocking that some of the major people pushing nonstop for the team to draft him, and then trashing anyone who disagreed with them, are nowhere to be seen now. But I don't remember hardly anyone pissed when the team traded down from 4 to 8/17/35 in that draft.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brad01

Why? The team had Jrue and Lonzo Ball. Garland had major questions going into the draft, including injury concerns (played only 5 games in college). The draft was seen as a major drop off after the 3rd pick, who turned out to not be that great anyway.

There was not a ton of hype around getting Garland with that pick on this board if I recall, so why go back and wish about a player that ended up turning out better than expected? This scenario isn't anywhere close to Kings fans imagining that they drafted Luka.

If you want to imagine something, then why not just imagine a timeline where Zion and Lonzo weren't constantly injured?

I can remember clearly half the board pissed when Dyson Daniels was drafted. Not shocking that some of the major people pushing nonstop for the team to draft him, and then trashing anyone who disagreed with them, are nowhere to be seen now. But I don't remember hardly anyone pissed when the team traded down from 4 to 8/17/35 in that draft.

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Because I'm cheating by using the magic of hindsight. So again, where would the team be right now had they taken Garland with that pick? I was okay with the trade down at the time but I would also have been good had we taken Garland. It's above my pay grade to make that call. But with hindsight it would have changed the trajectory of the franchise had they taken him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Willie did not even make the list. Not a wasted click. Nobody buying the injury B.S. anymore. Enjoy Galveston!

The complete voting results for the 2023-24 NBA Coach of the Year. pic.twitter.com/QatGZpJjYj

? NBA Communications (@NBAPR) April 28, 2024

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What?s the joy that you and others get about the constant Galveston comments? The team isn?t leaving and it honestly just makes people look like huge D?s.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

Just imagine a timeline in which we draft Garland instead of trading the 4th pick away. Just imagine.

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I was screaming Garland when he wasn?t picked before us. Even without knowing how poo Jaxon and NAW would turn out, who ever thinks trading 4 for 9 and 17 is a good deal? That?s just?.dumb

I honestly think we should be targeting garland in a trade. If Cs win out 4-1 who knows Cleveland might be willing to part with him.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brad01

But I don't remember hardly anyone pissed when the team traded down from 4 to 8/17/35 in that draft.

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There were many who said that trading down in an NBA draft is never a good idea. We were strapped by some dumb contracts (i.e. Solomon) that Griff had to dump in his desire to get JJ.