Rebounding - What to do about it

I think we've seen a big enough sample of the season now to say that one of the larger areas of concern for the Pelicans is our rebounding, particularly when JV isn't on the floor.

The question then becomes what to do about it.

So this is a space for people to speculate: most of us agree that something needs to be done with the C position on the team - basically, we just don't have a reliable backup. Yes, Nance can play those minutes in some contexts as a small ball C, and that can work well, but sometimes you just need someone who is actually a C and JV can't play 40 minutes a night.

Looking at the trade market, who are some targets you would be interested in, and what price do you think it might take to pry them away? I'm specifically working on the following assumptions here:

1) Obviously, you're not getting any all-stars. So while yes, Joel Embiid would solve the problem, it's not happening.
2) We don't want to trade any of the major pieces: BI, Zion, etc, aren't on the block. Really we're working with Graham, Temple, Jax, potentially Naji here.
3) Picks are on the board but again, I don't really think anyone wants to trade multiple first rounders so we're really working with maybe a future first with protections or 2nds.

Who do you think is out there that could address some of our issues, particularly on the defensive glass?

For me, I think there are a few options. Jakob Poeltl exists, is on a woeful Spurs team, is relatively young, and does all the little things. My concern with him is that he's a horrific FT shooter and that might make him unplayable in the clutch, which some might consider an issue.

I also wonder if Richaun Holmes might be available from SAC. He's only 29, he's under contract for another 2 years after this one (though one is a player option) for only about $12m, and they're not playing him in SAC; he's averaging about 8 minutes a game this year despite having been pretty solid when he has played. Historically speaking he's a pretty good defensive rebounder, he's a pretty solid shot blocker, he's about 6'10, and he's a career 74.5% from the FT line.

What do you all think? Who's on your mind?

I think we play small ball too much when the other team still has a true 5 on the court (Kessler, Biyambo, etc). The obvious answer to me is to play Billy (21.5 rebound%) and let him block those guys out vs Nance (13.9%) or Zion (12.5%). If we play a team like the Clippers, then playing Nance as a small ball 5 to match up with Marcus Morris makes sense because we still own the rebound advantage. We need to play matchups better vs just trotting out the same guys just because.

Any disadvantages we have on defense with Billy should be negated by his ability to finish on the offensive end. At the very least, I would adjust the lineup for 10-15 games to see if it makes a difference before going straight to the trade route.

Just for reference btw, Graham for Holmes works straight up in terms of salary.

Also going to add that Myles Turner does not fix the issues of this team imo, which is why I haven't considered him.

So, I did a quick search. Here is the full list of NBA players who are

1) Currently averaging at least 20% defensive rebounding
2) Earning under $15m a year
3) Under the age of 30
4) Not stars on their team or untradeable youth (Banchero, for example)

- Christian Wood
- Bobby Portis
- Jakob Poetl
- Jalen Smith
- Nic Claxton
- Jalen duren
- Isaiah Hartenstein

I'm ruling out, in my own estimations, guys like Jokic, Nurkic, Vucevic, Embiid, who are higher tier players, and I'm also ruling out guys who are not stars but who are pretty much guaranteed not to be on the trade block, like Jabari Smith Jr.

There's some of those options who I just don't think teams have any reason to trade: Claxton is doing good for a surging Nets team, for example. Portis plays real minutes for the Bucks, they're not likely to move him for any price we'd want to pay. There are also reasons I wouldn't want someone like Wood back - fairly well known reasons by most.

So that leaves, as more 'gettable' targets in my eyes, Hartenstein, Poeltl, duren, Smith, and I'm going to keep Holmes noted: he doesn't meet the 20% rebounding criteria this year but he also doesn't play. Prior to this season, he met it in every season so I'm calling an audible on including him.

Of those, Jalen Smith is young but hasn't been very good so far in his career, so I'm sceptical about bringing him in to 'fix' something when he has so many other issues. The other Jalen, duren, is more interesting to me - I'm not sure that the Pistons would part for him without asking for more than we'd be willing to give, since they're in the rebuild anyway, but he's a guy I had top 10 in the last draft anyway and he's shown real signs that he's got the potential in him. Poeltl does all the little things and would fix the rebounding issue but he's a horrific FT shooter. Hartenstein is perhaps one of the most intriguing guys here - he's a good passer as well as a capable rebounder, and though he's not a shooter he does have a pretty solid array of floaters/push shots out to around 15 feet which might help unclog the lane at times. Holmes is in a similar spot, where he's not a shooter but really is just a wizard from floater range - he may have one of he best floaters in the league, which is wild for a big.

I think overall in terms of semi-realistic targets, Holmes, Hartenstein, duren, and Poeltl seem like the most fitting candidates.

Is there anyone I'm just blatantly missing?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

So, I did a quick search. Here is the full list of NBA players who are

1) Currently averaging at least 20% defensive rebounding
2) Earning under $15m a year
3) Under the age of 30
4) Not stars on their team or untradeable youth (Banchero, for example)

- Christian Wood
- Bobby Portis
- Jakob Poetl
- Jalen Smith
- Nic Claxton
- Jalen duren
- Isaiah Hartenstein

I'm ruling out, in my own estimations, guys like Jokic, Nurkic, Vucevic, Embiid, who are higher tier players, and I'm also ruling out guys who are not stars but who are pretty much guaranteed not to be on the trade block, like Jabari Smith Jr.

There's some of those options who I just don't think teams have any reason to trade: Claxton is doing good for a surging Nets team, for example. Portis plays real minutes for the Bucks, they're not likely to move him for any price we'd want to pay. There are also reasons I wouldn't want someone like Wood back - fairly well known reasons by most.

So that leaves, as more 'gettable' targets in my eyes, Hartenstein, Poeltl, duren, Smith, and I'm going to keep Holmes noted: he doesn't meet the 20% rebounding criteria this year but he also doesn't play. Prior to this season, he met it in every season so I'm calling an audible on including him.

Of those, Jalen Smith is young but hasn't been very good so far in his career, so I'm sceptical about bringing him in to 'fix' something when he has so many other issues. The other Jalen, duren, is more interesting to me - I'm not sure that the Pistons would part for him without asking for more than we'd be willing to give, since they're in the rebuild anyway, but he's a guy I had top 10 in the last draft anyway and he's shown real signs that he's got the potential in him. Poeltl does all the little things and would fix the rebounding issue but he's a horrific FT shooter. Hartenstein is perhaps one of the most intriguing guys here - he's a good passer as well as a capable rebounder, and though he's not a shooter he does have a pretty solid array of floaters/push shots out to around 15 feet which might help unclog the lane at times. Holmes is in a similar spot, where he's not a shooter but really is just a wizard from floater range - he may have one of he best floaters in the league, which is wild for a big.

I think overall in terms of semi-realistic targets, Holmes, Hartenstein, duren, and Poeltl seem like the most fitting candidates.

Is there anyone I'm just blatantly missing?

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Noel
Drummond
Mo Bamba
Isaiah stewart

Where we this bad last year rebounding wise? Cause wasn't it one of our strengths when we faced Phoenix in the playoffs last year?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

Noel
Drummond
Mo Bamba
Isaiah stewart

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I don't think Orlando is trading Bamba. If they were, I'd be interested though.

Not interested in Andre drummond. He's obviously a talented rebounder but his defensive awareness has always been pretty woeful, and he seems to think of himself as far more of an offensive player than he is. His EPM this year is -3.9, as a demonstration of that. He is super cheap at the moment though, and yeah, nobody questions that he can rebound. I just think he creates more holes than he fixes, particularly when it comes to defending the PnR.

Stewart is more interesting. Obviously the rebounding is there, but he's a really negative passer (6%AST to 11%TOV) and pretty much every advanced metric has him as a negative defensive player. I think the Pistons are more likely to want to hold on to him because of his shooting indicators though, so that might drive the cost up, combined with his youth. Still, there's interest there for sure.

Noel is a weird case. He's been awful when he's played this year, but he's also barely played - 6 games. He wasn't great last year either but again, it was small sample. You'd be taking a flyer on the assumption that he'd bounce back to his pre 2020 form, really, but it could be a gamble that plays off if he's willing to take that minimal backup role. Not sure how well he fits with Zion though, given he's pretty paint bound.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaKwAn

Where we this bad last year rebounding wise? Cause wasn't it one of our strengths when we faced Phoenix in the playoffs last year?

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Last season JV averaged 31 minutes a game, this year he's averaging 23. He's also one of the league's best defensive rebounders, with a dREB% over 30%. Him being off the court more is painful beyond belief, but if Green isn't going to play him it doesn't matter how good he is - gotta get someone who Green will play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I don't think Orlando is trading Bamba. If they were, I'd be interested though.

Not interested in Andre drummond. He's obviously a talented rebounder but his defensive awareness has always been pretty woeful, and he seems to think of himself as far more of an offensive player than he is. His EPM this year is -3.9, as a demonstration of that. He is super cheap at the moment though, and yeah, nobody questions that he can rebound. I just think he creates more holes than he fixes, particularly when it comes to defending the PnR.

Stewart is more interesting. Obviously the rebounding is there, but he's a really negative passer (6%AST to 11%TOV) and pretty much every advanced metric has him as a negative defensive player. I think the Pistons are more likely to want to hold on to him because of his shooting indicators though, so that might drive the cost up, combined with his youth. Still, there's interest there for sure.

Noel is a weird case. He's been awful when he's played this year, but he's also barely played - 6 games. He wasn't great last year either but again, it was small sample. You'd be taking a flyer on the assumption that he'd bounce back to his pre 2020 form, really, but it could be a gamble that plays off if he's willing to take that minimal backup role. Not sure how well he fits with Zion though, given he's pretty paint bound.

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Thanks for the info.

A smaller name: Nick Richards is having a mini break out year in Charlotte and will be a RFA after this season... If Charlotte decides that Mark Williams is their future center (and also maybe want to tank a bit for Wembanyama), they might entertain a trade offer for him. His progress as a player has been slow and steady but I think he looks like a legit back up center at this point, and is averaging 12+ rebounds per 36, which is Top 20 in the league currently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicansfun

I think we play small ball too much when the other team still has a true 5 on the court (Kessler, Biyambo, etc).

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Yep, and it showed the other night when we were faced with Markkanan (7'0''), Olynyk (6'11'') and Kessler 7'0") to close out the Utah game. Is anyone going to tell me that H'Gomez wouldn't have been a better option than what was on the floor? LNJ (6'8"), Naji (6'7"). and our 6'6'' All Star PF looked like a biddy basketball team in overtime by comparison.

The obvious quick fix is Olynyk. Long-term the best answer might be UFA, Naz Reid, (cheapest too) and he's no giant either but will bang and stretch the floor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eyquem

A smaller name: Nick Richards is having a mini break out year in Charlotte and will be a RFA after this season... If Charlotte decides that Mark Williams is their future center (and also maybe want to tank a bit for Wembanyama), they might entertain a trade offer for him. His progress as a player has been slow and steady but I think he looks like a legit back up center at this point, and is averaging 12+ rebounds per 36, which is Top 20 in the league currently.

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I think my concern with Nick Richards is that his progress, while real, has been very slow and steady. He's better now than he was last year, and the year before that, I think pretty clearly, but he's also maybe a year away from being legitimately good which might make sense if we're trying to collect an investment for the future but might be a problem if we're trying to get someone who is a fix to a problem now.

Just to illustrate what I mean, you're absolutely right that his rebounding fits the kind of thing we want, but it's basically the only thing that does. TOV% is over double his AST%, is posting a -1.3 BPM (career high) which is almost entirely the result of negative defensive stuff (-1.8 dBPM), and is currently a -1.5 EPM (12th percentile in dEPM). I get really concerned when I see stuff like that because it makes me think that while he'd help the rebounding, he'd potentially just open up other holes we'd have to try to compensate for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Yep, and it showed the other night when we were faced with Markkanan (7'0''), Olynyk (6'11'') and Kessler 7'0") to close out the Utah game. Is anyone going to tell me that H'Gomez wouldn't have been a better option than what was on the floor? LNJ (6'8"), Naji (6'7"). and our 6'6'' All Star PF looked like a biddy basketball team in overtime by comparison.

The obvious quick fix is Olynyk. Long-term the best answer might be UFA, Naz Reid, (cheapest too) and he's no giant either but will bang and stretch the floor.

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Im on team JV. He is an excellent rebounder not to mention what he brings in offense. I understand subbing him out when matchup calls for it but when they have 3 bigs on the floor, why not JV? I dont see getting a better big via trade than the one we already have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Im on team JV. He is an excellent rebounder not to mention what he brings in offense. I understand subbing him out when matchup calls for it but when they have 3 bigs on the floor, why not JV? I dont see getting a better big via trade than the one we already have.

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Just want to clarify - I am also team JV. I'm not looking for a replacement, I'm looking for a backup who can play maybe 15 minutes a night without tanking either the defense or the offense and provide real rebounding in those minutes, of a kind that the small-ball Nance units don't deliver.

I don't have any interest in moving JV outside of a blockbuster trade, and I think he should be getting more minutes and more opportunities than he is currently getting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think my concern with Nick Richards is that his progress, while real, has been very slow and steady. He's better now than he was last year, and the year before that, I think pretty clearly, but he's also maybe a year away from being legitimately good which might make sense if we're trying to collect an investment for the future but might be a problem if we're trying to get someone who is a fix to a problem now.

Just to illustrate what I mean, you're absolutely right that his rebounding fits the kind of thing we want, but it's basically the only thing that does. TOV% is over double his AST%, is posting a -1.3 BPM (career high) which is almost entirely the result of negative defensive stuff (-1.8 dBPM), and is currently a -1.5 EPM (12th percentile in dEPM). I get really concerned when I see stuff like that because it makes me think that while he'd help the rebounding, he'd potentially just open up other holes we'd have to try to compensate for.

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Totally understandable concerns, but the thing that makes me just a bit more optimistic is how his impact stats stack up against the rest of his team. He's 5th overall in BPM, 2nd in WS, and #1 in WS/48 on a pretty bad team. I think his strengths might be amplified being the 5th most important guy on the floor with a good team like the Pels, as opposed to trying to help carry a team with a whole bunch of extremely net negative guys on the floor... Generally, I agree with you though-- I think he's better as a future bet that catches him as he potentially starts to be legit, as opposed to a significant help now addition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eyquem

Totally understandable concerns, but the thing that makes me just a bit more optimistic is how his impact stats stack up against the rest of his team. He's 5th overall in BPM, 2nd in WS, and #1 in WS/48 on a pretty bad team. I think his strengths might be amplified being the 5th most important guy on the floor with a good team like the Pels, as opposed to trying to help carry a team with a whole bunch of extremely net negative guys on the floor... Generally, I agree with you though-- I think he's better as a future bet that catches him as he potentially starts to be legit, as opposed to a significant help now addition.

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That's a fair thing to take into consideration, and changes in scenery/context can sometimes fix a lot for a player so I'm not counting him out. I guess I would say that I just haven't watched enough of him in detail (not an avid Hornets viewer, can't lie) to project him out like that - but that's mean, obviously if you buy in then I get it.

To my surprise, Shamit and Mason from the In The N.O. Pod just did a big man live-search addressing, among other things, this very problem.

I'm not going to transcribe the entire thing because it's over 2 hours long, but I'll bullet point out/block quote anything I think that is interesting or new, for the sake of other people who don't have 2+ hours to put on a podcast about backup centres.

From the Big Man Roulette pod, posted above. Note, they only discuss fairly big names, so stuff like Isaiah Hartenstein, Isaiah Stewart, etc, just don't come up here.

Shamit introducing the premise of the pod:

Quote:

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Over the last three games, the three losses that the Pelicans have had, we've noticed somewhat of a trend, and its kind of been a trend this season with how they're playing JV and how they utilise him. On both ends, offensively, defensively, and where his minutes are coming from. It seems to us that, in our opinion, there isn't a great deal of trust for JV at the end of games and we're not sure why given what he was able to accomplish last year but there's a pre-determined rotation going into games, regardless of how the game goes, and JV can't seem to get on the floor in the 4th quarter or overtime. Now the Pelicans have lost several games in a row where offensive rebounding has been a key factor, we haven't been able to prevent opposing bigs from tearing up Larry Nance, even guys like CJ who end up with bigs on the switches. We feel that we need to find someone that the Pelicans would be willing to play because clearly they don't believe in JV.

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MASTER TABLE OF INFO (NBA Stats and Cleaning the Glass rather than BBall-Ref)

Player	dFG% at rim	dRB% + %ile	dRB% on/off	3pt% and volume + 3pt Rate	Opp Rim Frequency	Opp Rim Accuracy	Overall def. on/off	Contract	Vibes
Jonas Val.	67.8%	26.1% (93rd)	-1.1% (65th)	35.9% (93/259) - 16% Rate	-3.1% (85th)	-2.8% (75th)	+0.2 (49th)	$15m/yr through 23-24	B+
Myles Turner	57.8%	21.1% (77th)	-1.9% (73rd)	35.3% (170/482) - 35.4% Rate	+0.3 (44th)	-2.6% (73rd)	-1.5 (62nd)	$18m exp.	C
Bam Adebayo	unattainable							$34m/yr through 25-26
Clint Capela	unexplored due to Collins							$21m/yr through 24-25
Mo Bamba	59.3%	18.0% (53rd)	+2.0 (27th)	36.8% (172/468) - 46.6% Rate	-2.0% (77th)	+0.8% (42nd)	-1.0 (59th)	$10m ($10m TO 23-24)	B+
deAndre Ayton	63.0%	23.3% (88th)	+0.9 (41st)	28.3% (15/53)	+2.1% (24th)	+3.3% (21st)	+5.3 (18th)	$33m/y through 25-26	C
John Collins	59.4%	18.8% (60th)	-5.1% (92nd)	35.7% (163/457) - 34.3% Rate	-1.5% (71st)	+0.2% (49th)	-5.7 (88th)	$25m/y through 24-25 (25-26 PO)	B
Kristaps Porzingis	57.9%	19.9% (71st)	-2.1 (75th)	34.2% (226/661) -34% Rate	-2.5% (81st)	-3.7% (81st)	+0.6 (44th)	$34m/y ($36m PO23-24)	F

Note:
This chart is reproduced from their stream, and is not my data - so things like the vibes are their opinions, not necessarily mine.
Percentiles are listed below the main statistic in pure form: so 93rd means 93rd percentile.
3P% and Volume is calculated since the 2020-21 season, giving a larger sample size. Rate is single year.

Player Notes:

Jonas Valanciunas
- They start with JV to use his numbers and production and impact as a baseline: Shamit mentions he's like the 'control' in a science experiment.
- JV's dFG% at the rim is pretty bad: for comparison, league leader in this stat this year so far is Giannis, who only allows 49% at the rim.
- Speculation that JV's dRB% is down this year on past years is a combination between JV's not being at his best this season combined with things like missing Ingram who also helps team rebounding who often shared the court with JV last year.
- This year's overall def on/off for Jonas is a huge regression. He was at least 80th percentile in each of the last 3 years before this.

On Myles Turner
- Career high 21.1% def rebounding: he is not a great defensive rebounder at C over his career.
- Not a major factor in this evaluation, but he is a woeful offensive rebounder and has been his entire career. Career high was 32nd percentile, 4 years ago: it's been under 10th percentile both of the last two years.
- Turner is shooting 43% from 3 this year and this is probably skewing his 3pt% a little: he may well cool down as this season progresses. Each of the last two seasons before this were under 35% accuracy.
- Vibes are horrible, this is a man who literally went on Woj's podcast and basically said ''trade me to the Lakers'' just a few months ago.
- New deal is incoming so he's probably going to want shots and we have to be aware of the danger of ''contract year'' play with regards to things like his career high def rebounding rate. Plus, then you're on the hook for potentially extending him for $20m+ per season - is he worth that, to us?

On Bam Adebayo
- One of the least likely guys to be up for a trade, for very obvious reasons

On Clint Capela
- Hawks probably less likely to give him up than Collins, because of Collin's discontent with the team historically along with Capela's classic PnR threat with Trae.

On Mo Bamba
- Wouldn't be particularly excited in trading for Bamba as a starter type.
- On/off numbers are going to be a ''cesspool of noisy data'' because of how awful the Magic have been for years now.
- dREB% is a career low, probably associated with coming off the bench more
- Has only had one year where he's made the rebounding better in his career.
- On the plus side, trading for him wouldn't really mean you were moving off JV. On the downside, the reality is that if you have both Nance and JV still on the roster, there's no way Willie Green is playing Bamba in the close moments anyway, which is the entire motivation for acquiring another big: to get someone that Green might actually play.

On Kristaps
- Reputation for being soft, but rebounding has been better with him on the floor every year which says something
- He shoots a lot, and his percentages have been extremely hit and miss.
- Has only played more than 60 games twice in his career. He usually averages about 45-50 a year. Not great, especially when we're a team that already leads with BI and Zion who are both likely to miss games in any given season.
- He's likely going to pick up his option but there's always the chance that he doesn't, and if so you're probably on the hook for another huge contract sat on the books immediately: $30m+ a year, for multiple years.
- Had massive drama with Luka.
- Unresolved sexual assault allegations in NY: it's been a few years with zero reporting, some people said it was legit, some said it was extortion, no confirmed outcome.
- Has complained about not getting enough touches in the past, forced his way out of NY, got into street fights in Lithuania.

On Ayton
- Not only is Ayton's defensive on/off bad, but it's been bad most of his career which is really worrying when you consider that his backups aren't exactly elite defenders either so it's not a case of being shown up by staunch bench play.
- Ayton's also one of the worst showings as a 3pt shooter, which is mitigated slightly by him having a legitimate midrange, but is still worth noting.
- Phoenix's general defense with people like Bridges and CP3 seems to have masked Ayton's overall terrible defensive production. All of these numbers have been bad pretty much his entire career, it's not a single year slump.
- Signed the offer sheet with the Pacers, Monty benched him in the playoffs, they really didn't want to pay him it seems. They don't seem to prioritise him particularly highly and his vibes would probably be better outside of Phoenix, though it can't be guaranteed how much better that would be.
- Green would probably play him.

On John Collins
- Hawks constantly have him in trade rumours so he's presumably attainable, like Myles Turner.
- Obviously has had some drama with ATL's FO in the past, mostly because they held out on the contract. That said, he also just doesn't like Trae Young according to most people and that probably plays a role. But that doesn't guarantee that he's instantly going to be cool the minute he's out of ATL.
- Shamit's very limited anecdotal experience is that he sat courtside at a Hawks game last year and he seemed really nice, to fans and teammates, orderev candy for kids near the court, etc. Obviously this is just a small anecdote, not larger data.
- His defensive on/off this year is by far a career high and probably not representative of him in most contexts. His career more generally hovers around the 65th percentile here.
- Extremely mediocre def rebounding for a C individually but his team is significantly better at it with him on, and that's true for most years of his career.
- Collins' numbers have a lot of fog surrounding them because while he does play with Capela a lot, which you would think would inflate his statistics on the glass, he also plays most of his minutes with Trae Young, who tanks those lineups. Searching for lineups without either Capela or Trae tilts his numbers fairly wildly in either direction: seems fair to assume he's somewhere between the two individually but is just in a very volatile context, which is what shows up when you look at his numbers from last season in lineups which had neither Trae nor Capela. Pretty solid but not as eyepopping as this year.
- Is more offensively versatile than JV and could stabilise non-Zion unites slightly more than JV currently is doing in his context.

Trade Market Talk
- We know LA won't give up 2 firsts for Turner and Hield so wouldn't want to give up that much for Turner either, given that he's less vital to the team (i.e, we're deeper than LA)
- Collins would need matching salary, which is doable in a number of ways. Would require picks on top of salary - Mason says he's willing to give up more picks than for Turner, but not much more because of the higher dollar amount. Says the ceiling would be roughly similar to the trade we made for CJ - Shamit says he would trade this year's pick top 10 protected (which means if the LA pick is top 10, we keep it; if not, it goes to ATL) but would not for Turner. Wouldn't go multiple FRPs for Collins because his market seems fairly small.
- Bamba is probably going to be the cheapest to acquire, largely because the TO lets you kick the can down the road if you want. Mason himself prefers the Bamba option because the other guys require more investment.
- Acquiring Kristaps would require Jonas as the centrepiece of the trade, so it's a swap again rather than a backup. Trade market isn't likely to be giant because he makes so much money and has the looming new contract, but WAS is still likely to want a FRP which we wouldn't want to give up. Would you do the CJ trade for him? Mason says no, Shamit does, in terms of pure player fit - not on vibes.

Shamit's Rankings of Priority

1) John Collins: probably cheap, surprisingly good defensive numbers without Trae, shooting is there, under contract for years, Green might play him
2) Ayton
3) Porzingis
4) Just keeping Jonas
5) Turner
6) Bamba's sort of his own thing because you just keep JV in that case.

My personal opinion is pretty similar, except I would drop Porzingis down even further based on his Vibes ranking being just absolute garbage. I suggested a Collins trade a season or two ago, when the Trae controversy first started kicking off, and I think he'd be an interesting figure to look at.


Okay that's it, mammoth post over.

Personally, I would rank keeping Jonas over the other options currently given the cost in both assets and salary.

Intrigued by this. We can trade for Collins without giving up Jonas. I'd do this top 10 2023 protected trade:

https://i.ibb.co/pnbvjBV/fanspo-nba-...2-52-57-PM.png


And while we're here, we might as well also do this 2024 MIL pick lottery protected trade:

https://i.ibb.co/233kFCh/fanspo-nba-...2-55-33-PM.png
como pasar una foto de jpg a png


This puts us squarely in win-now without giving up any super high picks.

Roster:

Jonas
Zion
Ingram
Herb
CJ
TM3
Collins
Caruso
Daniels
Alvarado
Nance
Naji


That's an absolutely killer 12 deep team. Only problem would be minutes for everyone, but it would also be pretty solid in cases of injuries.

Collins doesn't want to share the ball with Trae.
You think he is going to be happy being the 3rd option behind Z and BI?

If the defense is switching and the guy who is playing the 5 is being dragged out to the 3 point line, it wouldn't matter who the Pels have.
The guy can't get defensive rebounds all the way out there.
The other guy's on the court who seem to be allergic to rebounds (Herb and Trey) need to rebound.

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

Collins doesn't want to share the ball with Trae.
You think he is going to be happy being the 3rd option behind Z and BI?

If the defense is switching and the guy who is playing the 5 is being dragged out to the 3 point line, it wouldn't matter who the Pels have.
The guy can't get defensive rebounds all the way out there.
The other guy's on the court who seem to be allergic to rebounds (Herb and Trey) need to rebound.

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This!!

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Personally, I would rank keeping Jonas over the other options currently given the cost in both assets and salary.

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I agree.

JV needs more minutes. He's averaging 23.3 minutes per game. He averaged 30.3 last year and 28.3 the year before that.

I think Wendell Carter has the best skill set for this team. Not sure if he’d cost much more than Collins. We also need a good shooting guard that can spread the court. Vassell is my favorite but doubt Pop trades in division but next would be Beasley or Oubre.

So Jonas can hit the open 3 if he's open?
Thats all you can ask from a big.

Like I have said, nothing wrong with the Jonas, Nance and Willy combo at the expense of giving up assets.

The other players need to fight for defensive rebounds when Jonas, Nance and Zion are dragged out to the 3 point line.

They need more 3 point shooting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

So Jonas can hit the open 3 if he's open?
Thats all you can ask from a big.

Like I have said, nothing wrong with the Jonas, Nance and Willy combo at the expense of giving up assets.

The other players need to fight for defensive rebounds when Jonas, Nance and Zion are dragged out to the 3 point line.

They need more 3 point shooting.

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The problem with ''we need more 3 point shooting'' is that we have a lot of really good 3 point shooters. Ingram, Trey, CJ, Graham, even Nance this year - Jonas is good for a big, dyson looks like his shot might be way further along, etc. The issue is volume and that's nothing to do with the players. It's a purposeful stylistic choice that Green has been open about making on purpose.

Obviously that choice should change, we need to be shooting significantly more, but how do you convince Green to do that?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The problem with ''we need more 3 point shooting'' is that we have a lot of really good 3 point shooters. Ingram, Trey, CJ, Graham, even Nance this year - Jonas is good for a big, dyson looks like his shot might be way further along, etc. The issue is volume and that's nothing to do with the players. It's a purposeful stylistic choice that Green has been open about making on purpose.

Obviously that choice should change, we need to be shooting significantly more, but how do you convince Green to do that?

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Sorry, should have explained myself better.
More consistent 3 point shooters!!

Yes I agree, they need to be putting up 30-35 attempts at minimum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

Sorry, should have explained myself better.
More consistent 3 point shooters!!

Yes I agree, they need to be putting up 30-35 attempts at minimum.

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I'm more in the 35-40 camp, but yeah absolutely. Shots need to go up.

The defensive rebounding is still an issue. We won the OREBs tonight by a large margin but lost the dREBs by a fair margin too, and we actually out-shot them from 3. The issue was that they got a ton more 2s because they beat us out on the glass when it came to their side of the floor. It's continuing to be an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I'm more in the 35-40 camp, but yeah absolutely. Shots need to go up.

The defensive rebounding is still an issue. We won the OREBs tonight by a large margin but lost the dREBs by a fair margin too, and we actually out-shot them from 3. The issue was that they got a ton more 2s because they beat us out on the glass when it came to their side of the floor. It's continuing to be an issue.

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Thats why I keep saying this team doesn't need to spend anymore assets or $$ on another big.
A shot blocker would be nice, but you cant have everything. This can be addressed in the offseason.

The players at the end of games need to get rebounds from their wings, like Aminu used to or more recently Hart.
You need these guys when Zion, Nance and JV are moved out from the paint.

Green also needs to stop being so defensive.
Having non shooter/spacers on the floor like Herb at the end of games is bad in place of a guy like Trey.

Interesting evening. JV gets minutes, 18 rebounds. 37 points wasn't bad either lol.

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Originally Posted by WeatherNLU

Interesting evening. JV gets minutes, 18 rebounds. 37 points wasn't bad either lol.

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Well thats the whole point. Nobody is saying JV is terrible. The issue isn't JV, the issue is getting continuously beaten on the glass.

The whole argument is ''this team is getting annihilated on the glass, Green refuses to play JV, is there someone who would fix the issue that Green might play?''

If he decides to just play JV then that's cool, problem solved. Problem is, I suspect this is more an outlier than the birth of a new trend: hopefully I'm wrong and Green has switched up.

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Originally Posted by tdcreator

I think Wendell Carter has the best skill set for this team. Not sure if he?d cost much more than Collins. We also need a good shooting guard that can spread the court. Vassell is my favorite but doubt Pop trades in division but next would be Beasley or Oubre.

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Beasley would be fine. Do not want Oubre. He is a selfish player and has been known to be a locker room issue at times.

I’m wondering if a 3 way with Hawks, Hornets and us could work. Hearing Collins will be harder to move because of salary so maybe not a lot to get him.
Hawks get
Oubre
Hayes
Temple (buyout)

Hornets get
Graham
Willy

Pels get
Collins
Richards

Maybe only have to give up a late protected 1st. Hawks get a scorer and drop salary for this year and next year. Hornets get Graham and a protected first and we get oodles of depth at the 4 and 5 with Zion and Collins at the 4 and Jonas, Richards, and Nance (small ball 5) at the Center spot.