Would you want budenholzer if the bucks fire him?

could be coming soon, especially since they will be fighting to keep giannis there

Difficult to say. On one hand I'm fully confident that he would be a good regular season coach, would be able to work well with our defense, etc.

On the other hand, I also know that in 3 or 4 year's time when we're making deep playoff runs we will hate him for the same reason he's on thin ice with the Bucks now. He didn't learn his lesson from ATL going to MIL, and I have no idea why we'd expect him to learn it now coming from MIL if he came to NOLA.

Do you hire a coach to ''stabilise'' the franchise knowing full well you're going to have to kick him to the kerb in a few years to get anything done in the playoffs? Nah.

If you're so desperate to get a Budenholzer/Bucks alumn, just interview Darvin Ham. Hopefully he knows how to play guys more than 36 minutes.

No question. The team still needs to win in the regular season. He will at the very least do that while load managing your star player in the process.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

No question. The team still needs to win in the regular season. He will at the very least do that while load managing your star player in the process.

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Sure, but unless you have a reason to suspect he's suddenly figured out that he's allowed to play people heavy minutes in the post-season, then you know you're going to have to replace him in a few years.

Do you really try and construct your new team by firing Gentry after year 1, then firing Bud in year 4 or 5, and then having to take another swing at things?

Surely you just try and get someone who will stick now, rather than taking someone you're fairly sure will be a stopgap coach.

I already feel like the next coach will be a stopgap no matter who it is. The coach who comes on board will have very little power and say in the construction and the direction of the team. Griffin has made it fairly clear in his press conference.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

I already feel like the next coach will be a stopgap no matter who it is. The coach who comes on board will have very little power and say in the construction and the direction of the team. Griffin has made it fairly clear in his press conference.

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You might as well kiss Zion's tenure here goodbye then. You don't get anywhere by flipping through coaches every two or three seasons. It's just not how good teams run. 3 or 4 coaches within Zion's first 7 years (that's how long you get control for) is basically begging him to walk. Makes the franchise look unstable, prevents a team from building continuity and an identity, etc.

If you hire a coach and things break in such a way that you end up having to get rid of them in a couple of years then that sucks, but it happens. On the other hand, if you hire a coach knowing in advance that they're definitely not the guy, then it's your fault when it fails.

You’re being a bit dramatic. The team have a good 6-7 years to get it to work.

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Originally Posted by Snarly

You’re being a bit dramatic. The team have a good 6-7 years to get it to work.

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When you begin a build around a rookie that you think is going to be special, you essentially have 7 years to get it 'there'.

The reason it's 7 is that that's how long you have your special young player for, guaranteed (unless they demand a trade). So that's your timeline to make serious progress. By the end of that deal, most players are about 26 years old, so they're starting their prime and they want to be winning.

We've just had Zion's year 1. It ended with a crushing disappointment and Gentry getting fired.

Let's say you then hire Budenholzer, and he's better. We become a good regular season team, coached pretty well, but make no real championship contention noise for the completely predictable Budenholzer reasons, and then in Zion's year 4, you fire Bud.

Now you have to find a brand new coach and hope that they can get you over that hump in 3 years to be a real contender. Why would you waste years 2, 3, and 4 on Budenholzer if you're going to be on this hunt again anyway? Why not just search for that new coach in the first place and give them 6 seasons to work, instead of 3?

The minutes issue is def a problem with bud, but i ll defend him here. Giannis is a flawed star. His lack of shot and bricking free throws is a huge issue.

Middleton and lopez were carrying him for a while in this game. It happened last year vs toronto and he hasn't fixed his game at all.

You could say bud should have him playing out of the post and just surround him with shooting, but this maimi defense is legit. Spo would figure that out fast as well. He needs to improve his skill level, but its. Very low right now for a soon to be 2 time mvp

Also no idea why they reisgned bledsoe so quick, brogdon Is a much better fit . Its a lowkey big loss for the bucks

Nobody discussing Erik Spoelstra’s assistants?

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Nobody discussing Erik Spoelstra’s assistants?

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Point them out , what's the name of them

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

Point them out , what's the name of them

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Dan Craig
Assistant Coach Malik Allen
Assistant Coach/Director of Player Development Chris Quinn
Assistant Coach/Player Development Octavio De La Grana

Yea I would look into any good coach teams assistant

Including Brad stevens

Nick nurse

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

The minutes issue is def a problem with bud, but i ll defend him here. Giannis is a flawed star. His lack of shot and bricking free throws is a huge issue.

Middleton and lopez were carrying him for a while in this game. It happened last year vs toronto and he hasn't fixed his game at all.

You could say bud should have him playing out of the post and just surround him with shooting, but this maimi defense is legit. Spo would figure that out fast as well. He needs to improve his skill level, but its. Very low right now for a soon to be 2 time mvp

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The problem is also that Bud won't play Middleton or Lopez either: nobody on this Bucks team is getting over about 34 minutes with any regularity. Budenholzer has an allergy to playing guys for real minutes: it has nothing to do with Giannis in particular, Bud just doesn't get it.

And it's nothing to do with playing Giannis out of the post either. The problem is that Giannis is fundamentally a movement big who has auxiliary dribbling skills and good passing. He's an elite roller for this reason: he puts up something like 1.56 points per possession on rolls, which is incredible. So what does Bud do? He gives Giannis the ball at the top of the key, puts 4 stationary shooters around him and tells him to create like a wing. Boggling.

This works somewhat in the regular season, when Giannis' size and speed overpowers people and the Bucks can really get transition going, but when it's the playoffs and it comes down to half court basketball more frequently and your opponent has time to figure you out, it gets old. Coaches need to be able to adjust what they're doing to fit their opponent and response. Spoelstra does this, Nurse does this, Stevens does this. Budenholzer hasn't made one (1) real adjustment in this entire playoffs so far, and he switched back to his normal scheme before the end of the half. I

It's just not good enough. Complete coaching malpractice.

Edit: Also, Bud has used Giannis as a roll man like 11 times in this entire series so far. That number might be a touch off, but it's not by much. Just zero interest in doing it, despite it being incredibly effective on the rare occasions they do.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The problem is also that Bud won't play Middleton or Lopez either: nobody on this Bucks team is getting over about 34 minutes with any regularity. Budenholzer has an allergy to playing guys for real minutes: it has nothing to do with Giannis in particular, Bud just doesn't get it.

And it's nothing to do with playing Giannis out of the post either. The problem is that Giannis is fundamentally a movement big who has auxiliary dribbling skills and good passing. He's an elite roller for this reason: he puts up something like 1.56 points per possession on rolls, which is incredible. So what does Bud do? He gives Giannis the ball at the top of the key, puts 4 stationary shooters around him and tells him to create like a wing. Boggling.

This works somewhat in the regular season, when Giannis' size and speed overpowers people and the Bucks can really get transition going, but when it's the playoffs and it comes down to half court basketball more frequently and your opponent has time to figure you out, it gets old. Coaches need to be able to adjust what they're doing to fit their opponent and response. Spoelstra does this, Nurse does this, Stevens does this. Budenholzer hasn't made one (1) real adjustment in this entire playoffs so far, and he switched back to his normal scheme before the end of the half. I

It's just not good enough. Complete coaching malpractice.

Edit: Also, Bud has used Giannis as a roll man like 11 times in this entire series so far. That number might be a touch off, but it's not by much. Just zero interest in doing it, despite it being incredibly effective on the rare occasions they do.

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So you’re using Giannis’ roll man efficiency from the regular season yet saying the 4 shooters with Giannis creating is only effective in the regular season yet not the playoffs? I see no reason Giannis as a roller would not also drop in efficiency in the playoffs, especially considering Bledsoe just shrinks in the playoffs, and Middleton isn’t quick enough to put pressure on the rim.

I see no issues with bringing in bud. You’re overreacting to his flaws. And if he’s the coach before the coach that isn’t unusual in the timeline of a rookie star. (Jordan, Dirk, Curry)

D’Antoni may save his job if he wins this series.

That is hard no. I

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Originally Posted by Pelifan

So you’re using Giannis’ roll man efficiency from the regular season yet saying the 4 shooters with Giannis creating is only effective in the regular season yet not the playoffs? I see no reason Giannis as a roller would not also drop in efficiency in the playoffs, especially considering Bledsoe just shrinks in the playoffs, and Middleton isn’t quick enough to put pressure on the rim.

I see no issues with bringing in bud. You’re overreacting to his flaws. And if he’s the coach before the coach that isn’t unusual in the timeline of a rookie star. (Jordan, Dirk, Curry)

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The numbers I gave for Giannis' roll man efficiency are from the playoffs so far, including the Orlando series. So Orlando series + first 2 games of the Miami series.

And Gentry already was the coach before the coach. You're talking about you're talking about bringing in the coach before the coach after the coach. See how that's a little extra step?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The numbers I gave for Giannis' roll man efficiency are from the playoffs so far, including the Orlando series. So Orlando series + first 2 games of the Miami series.

And Gentry already was the coach before the coach. You're talking about you're talking about bringing in the coach before the coach after the coach. See how that's a little extra step?

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ok my bad, thats a tiny sample size though. I think it's troubling Bud hasnt made adjustments, but we need to establish SOME winning first imo and bud can at least do that. we're a talented young team but so is Minny, Memphis, Atlanta, Phx

Jordan had 3 coaches before Phil.

A lot can change in 5 years and thats really our timetable to get on the championship track.


Sure everyone would love to strike gold on the next IDK brad stevens? for the next hire but it's far more likely you get an Alvin Gentry when hiring an unknown. Bud has his limitations but he's not going to irrecoverably wreck a franchise with a 2nd year Zion, another Gentry absolutely would.

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Originally Posted by Pelifan

ok my bad, thats a tiny sample size though. I think it's troubling Bud hasnt made adjustments, but we need to establish SOME winning first imo and bud can at least do that. we're a talented young team but so is Minny, Memphis, Atlanta, Phx

Jordan had 3 coaches before Phil.

A lot can change in 5 years and thats really our timetable to get on the championship track.


Sure everyone would love to strike gold on the next IDK brad stevens? for the next hire but it's far more likely you get an Alvin Gentry when hiring an unknown. Bud has his limitations but he's not going to irrecoverably wreck a franchise with a 2nd year Zion, another Gentry absolutely would.

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I don't think Bud would wreck the franchise, I just think that he would be a dead end. Decent caretaker coach, sure, but if I know that he's not the coach of the future - which I think we probably do know - why would I waste 2 or 3 years on him before ''trying out'' a new coach during our win-now period, when I could do the trying out now and have someone in place that I trust in time for us to be in ''win now'' mode?

I get that you can argue about us never reaching win now if the next coach sucks bad enough, that's a fair argument, but that's not really an argument in favour of Bud, it's just an argument in favour of someone who doesn't suck completely. Which might be Bud, but it could be a bunch of other people too.

I am a yes. Dae’s criticism are fair, however, I would argue he is more than a decent caretaker coach. His best teams with the Hawks ran into Lebron , and these Bucks teams don’t have a top 20 player outside of Giannis. We saw Ty Lue win a championship without exhibiting any of the coaching acumen Bud has shown. Point blank I think he is a top ten coach in the league. I would put him 7th behind Nurse, Stevens, Pop, Carlisle, Kerr, and Spo. I think Dae has said his top realistic pick would be Becky Hammond. I would rather have the guy who I know is a top ten coach in the league despite his flaws, than swinging for the fences with the new up and coming assistant. There is an important caveat here though, I don’t think its a given after year 3,4, or 5 we are looking for a new coach with Bud. It is entirely plausible he wins a championship at some point somewhere. Part of the problem with objectively looking at Bud as a candidate is extreme recency bias.

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Originally Posted by bogiesfedora

There is an important caveat here though, I don’t think its a given after year 3,4, or 5 we are looking for a new coach with Bud. It is entirely plausible he wins a championship at some point somewhere. Part of the problem with objectively looking at Bud as a candidate is extreme recency bias.

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I don't think it's guaranteed that we'd be looking for a new coach, I just think it's likely. The problems he's showing now with the Bucks are tendencies he also had with the Hawks, they just weren't as disastrous on the Hawks because that wasn't a team that revolved around a Batman/Robin combo like the Bucks do. It was more of a collective effort, which is why spreading minutes more evenly wasn't a huge problem there.

The issue for me is that Bud has been a HC for 7 years total, and the problems he has now are the problems he had 5 or 6 years ago. Again, it didn't show too badly back then because nobody expected those Hawks to win rings anyway and they had no star, but he's treating a 2x MVP and DPOY like he treated Jeff Teague or Kent Bazemore, and it's just not good enough. If he recognised this after last year and fixed it this year, that would be fine. Hell, if he recognised it now and fixed it, that would be fine, but here we have the Title Favourites for most people down 0-3 in the 2nd round because of these problems, and Bud is still telling people in interviews that he thinks 36 minutes is the upper limit on minutes he'll allow.

That's just obstinate. That's refusing to learn. That's why I don't expect him to win a ring anytime soon: he has preconceived game plans that he cannot adjust, and even the idea of deviating for the plan is unthinkable for him. Rigid coaching like that doesn't win rings.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I don't think it's guaranteed that we'd be looking for a new coach, I just think it's likely. The problems he's showing now with the Bucks are tendencies he also had with the Hawks, they just weren't as disastrous on the Hawks because that wasn't a team that revolved around a Batman/Robin combo like the Bucks do. It was more of a collective effort, which is why spreading minutes more evenly wasn't a huge problem there.

The issue for me is that Bud has been a HC for 7 years total, and the problems he has now are the problems he had 5 or 6 years ago. Again, it didn't show too badly back then because nobody expected those Hawks to win rings anyway and they had no star, but he's treating a 2x MVP and DPOY like he treated Jeff Teague or Kent Bazemore, and it's just not good enough. If he recognised this after last year and fixed it this year, that would be fine. Hell, if he recognised it now and fixed it, that would be fine, but here we have the Title Favourites for most people down 0-3 in the 2nd round because of these problems, and Bud is still telling people in interviews that he thinks 36 minutes is the upper limit on minutes he'll allow.

That's just obstinate. That's refusing to learn. That's why I don't expect him to win a ring anytime soon: he has preconceived game plans that he cannot adjust, and even the idea of deviating for the plan is unthinkable for him. Rigid coaching like that doesn't win rings.

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I would have to go back and check, but I would assume this is the first series he has been favored in that he is going to lose. The Hawks were dogs against the Cavs, and I have to imagine the Raptors were the favorites in the ECF last year (which was a competitive series). Something like what we are seeing may be what he needs to change. Your criticisms are warranted though.

hell no

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Originally Posted by bogiesfedora

I would have to go back and check, but I would assume this is the first series he has been favored in that he is going to lose. The Hawks were dogs against the Cavs, and I have to imagine the Raptors were the favorites in the ECF last year (which was a competitive series). Something like what we are seeing may be what he needs to change. Your criticisms are warranted though.

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As far as I remember the Bucks were favourites over the Raptors last year as well. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure general was consensus was that the Bucks were the probable finals team.

In support of Dae’s point:

https://youtu.be/nmxuGgGD5ik

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

As far as I remember the Bucks were favourites over the Raptors last year as well. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure general was consensus was that the Bucks were the probable finals team.

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You may be right I thought the money line favored the Raptors but I think I misremembered. I placed a $500 futures bet on the Raptors to win the finals at +1200 the minute after they got Kawhi. I think I got the twitter alert from WOJ and within 20 seconds had the bet placed. Just don’t ask me how all my futures went this year

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Originally Posted by bogiesfedora

You may be right I thought the money line favored the Raptors but I think I misremembered. I placed a $500 futures bet on the Raptors to win the finals at +1200 the minute after they got Kawhi. I think I got the twitter alert from WOJ and within 20 seconds had the bet placed. Just don’t ask me how all my futures went this year

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You could be totally right about the betting numbers, I literally have no idea. I don't check them and I don't gamble.

But the discourse surrounding the playoffs from NBA writers and commentators was pretty in on the Bucks, I think. Less so than this year, but it was there. That's why everyone was so shocked when the Raptors dealt so handily with the Bucks. Then this year, Miami isn't a team most people had as a finals contender, and here they are mopping the Bucks up.

Bud don't got the juice

I think he has a record of choking in Atlanta too.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

I think he has a record of choking in Atlanta too.

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It's not even choking, I don't think. Choking is when you have the potential to win and you do something out of the ordinary to mess it up.

Bud's whole problem is that he refuses to ever do anything out of the ordinary, and as a result they have little potential to win in post-season situations.

In that case, you're not choking, you're just outmatched.

Assuming Budenholzer explains to management what he (will have learned) from his losses to Miami in the playoffs, especially how he intends on improving the way his teams defend the three-point shot, I am open to him as coach.

Unless, he really is the one responsible for this... which, he probably should take responsibility for if he allowed a shooting coach to do this kind of insane damage...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHE3X9-WnPs

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Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels

Assuming Budenholzer explains to management what he (will have learned) from his losses to Miami in the playoffs, especially how he intends on improving the way his teams defend the three-point shot, I am open to him as coach.

Unless, he really is the one responsible for this... which, he probably should take responsibility for if he allowed a shooting coach to do this kind of insane damage...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHE3X9-WnPs

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I honestly don't care too much about the defensive strategy overall. It works. They had the best defense in the league this year: it's just good fundamentals to protect the rim at high priority. Obviously you need the personnel to run that, and not every team does, but the actual concept isn't the problem, at least in the regular season.

If he got fired and we sat him down and interviewed him and asked what lessons he learned from his previous role that he can take forward, and he said something to the effect of ''I realise now that my minutes management priorities were a serious mistake, and that I was too slow to make adjustments when my team was struggling. Going forward, I'll keep my minutes low in the regular season but I accept that in the playoffs I need to be more reactive as a coach and more willing to play my guys heavier minutes'' then that's one thing.

But what's the likelihood of him doing that? When even after game 3 he was in interviews insisting that 36 minutes is too many. I know he played Middleton a heavier minute load tonight but that was after Giannis got injured. Imagine he comes here and refuses to play Ingram 40 minutes in the playoffs until Zion breaks his arm or something. Just absurd.

As for who broke Giannis' jumpshot, the majority of the damage happened under Kidd iirc

^ I think that is correct and makes me feel better. I easily see Kidd being that stupid but was having some cognitive dissonance trying to wrap my brain around Budenholzer doing that to him.

If Bud is available, I would absolutely hire him.
I am not a believer in title-or-bust. I think he is one of the few coaches who is a difference-maker in winning, at least in the regular season.
And I think it will be at least a few years before we have to worry about winning in the playoffs regardless of who we hire.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

Point them out , what's the name of them

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Bulls interviewed Dan Craig
https://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/...rzi-story.html

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Originally Posted by Biasvasospasm

If Bud is available, I would absolutely hire him.
I am not a believer in title-or-bust. I think he is one of the few coaches who is a difference-maker in winning, at least in the regular season.
And I think it will be at least a few years before we have to worry about winning in the playoffs regardless of who we hire.

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If you have any intentions of keeping Zion past his 7 year free trial, it is absolutely title or bust. (See Bucks and Giannis)