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I don't buy it.
Might as well...
People thinking Griff is just going to accept a low tier trade for Jrue
Jrue Holiday is available?
— Cranjis McBasketball (@Tim_NBA) December 17, 2019
Let's me just take a look at his @The_BBall_Index talent grad-OH WOW pic.twitter.com/jg48i14CnN
Send him to the Clippers. Block Davis from winning championship. Jrue gets the ring he deserves.
He wont get traded because no team will give the value griffin will want
Unless they get multiple teams involved.
In case you guys were looking for it - I have the perfect trade because I continue to lose the battle to stay the hell away from CP3's contract. pic.twitter.com/WPuDwYsGEc
— Ryan Schwan (@SchwanBSS) December 16, 2019
Thoughts?
They were saying on Sirius that a team like Miami or PHX might be willing to trade for Jrue.
A draft pick, sure. Wouldn't be one of theirs probably though, would be likely to be one of their accumulated bunch.
Schwan posted a follow up to that, that I quote here:
Quote:
It does have some logic behind it. Pels ain't gonna be great for a couple years, then CP3 is expiring. OKC gets to say they turned CP3's turdbowl contract into the former 2nd pick of the draft, and the Heat get to unleash holy hell on the east and become fun as hell to watch.
So, what would be the point of a trade if they are still going to be bad. Why not let the current players contract expire? Shwan isn’t making sense. Nobody makes a trade just to help other teams.
Exactly. It’s non sense. That’s all I been reading from anyone that writes about the Pels. Shamit thinks basketball is a math quiz. He thinks we shouldn’t judge basketball off of wins and losses. I agree with this for the first 10 games, but 27 is good enough to think a system is not working. Not to go on a tangent here, but I don’t think anybody that writes for them have actually played basketball. Apparently, the Pels have a bunch of low IQ players, that can’t think for themselves on the basketball court.
CP3 is still good at basketball. We consolidate 2 guards into 1 which clears up a bit of room on the roster, while adding someone who is actually capable of leading a half-court offense consistently. Say what you like about CP3, but the dude is one of the greatest pure points to ever lace up for an NBA game and while he's clearly slowing down, he's far from a scrub.
Thunder get CP3's monster deal off the books, adding Lonzo (who is, for all his flaws, exactly Presti's style of player: Long, athletic, can't shoot) to a team which already has an established lead guard of the future, allowing Lonzo to move more into the wing-style of play, which is where he should be.
Also gives them 2 expirings, which will get a ton of cash off their books. They're spending a lot of money right now: if they don't change anything, they'll be butting up against the salary cap next season with only 6 players signed, meaning they'll be forced to go over the cap to fill out the roster unless they get some expiring deals this year. This trade solves that issue.
As far as the Heat go, why should we care if they're good this year, or next? They're not competing for playoff spots with us, and it's not like we're making the finals any time soon. Who cares if we're making them better?
I think trading Holiday allows NAW to develop. Good or bad, I’d like to give NAW the keys to the backcourt.
Keep Jrue. We are overloaded with assets unless langdon vying for more ammunition in the 2021 draft. Which is deep, but we would be a stupid young team and essentially a farm team,because we won't be able to retain all these men before they hit their prime.
2021 short list
Jalen Green
Evan Mobley
Jalen Johnson
Cade Cunningham
Tearnence Clark
I would delete my account and never watch the Pelicans again if they did that proposed trade. It's absolutely garbage. You're effectively turning Jrue Holiday into a salary dump to get rid of Lonzo Ball. CP3 contract is an albatross not an asset. To suggest Jrue Holiday is worth LESS than him on their current deals to the point that you'd have to also include Lonzo Ball..........
I want to throw my phone against the wall just reading the suggestion. I don't say this lightly, that might be the worst trade suggestion I've ever read where the person was serious.
Guys, imagine if Zion is healthy and is playing at the level he did during preseason where he sh!t all over Rudy Golbert like he wasn't even there, and BI continues his upwards trajectory.... or even stays where he is right now...
Holiday is THE PERFECT third man. Not to say Zion and BI are at the level of Kawai and Paul George, but Holiday is like Lou Williams++. Gives up a touch on scoring maybe, but a real lockdown defender, more efficient and reliable, and far more creative playmaker. IMO, we are one good rim-protecting/rebounding center (doesn't even need offense--think this year's Dwight Howard) away from fielding a real team.
I don't really see how you get equivalent trade value for Holiday unless some contender thinks they need him to get over the hump and gives us a solid player and a couple firsts, or we get back both a solid young PG & Center with real upside. Both longshots IMO.
If I am GM, I need to see how all our pieces fit together first when healthy before I think of getting rid of Holiday.
If this is the argument for the Pelicans to do the deal then it's absolutely wrong. You cannot say, "it's not like we're making the finals any time soon" then turn around and suggest we trade YOUNGER ASSETS ON BETTER CONTRACTS for CP3 and his deal. It's insane. You trade for CP3 and his albatross if you're trying to win now. We are doing no such thing.
What's even the outcome of trading for him? Either he helps us win some games, which hurts our draft stock, or we still are losing but are more cash strapped and inflexible due to his monster deal.
I would be hard pressed to find a much worse lose/lose deal for the Pelicans in a Jrue Holiday trade. Usually it's other team's fans who present horribly one sided traded for players of value. Has losing so much frazzled our fan base to the point that they just want to dump Jrue for the sake of it? Seriously people...
Well obviously not. If Jrue wants to stay, then I'm all for just keeping him, of course. I've said a bunch of times that I want Jrue to retire here, and we can retire his jersey. I love him.
But if we must trade him, maybe because he's asked to be moved, for example, then I'd be largely fine with this deal. Gets us shot of Lonzo, brings us back someone who would actually fit our team's needs without adding salary 3+ years down the line that would obstruct building around Zion as he grows. Yeah, obviously CP3s contract is obnoxious (second worst contract in basketball? Maybe not but it's up there) but:
1) It's only one more year after this one, so it's not that big of a deal in terms of long term success
and
2) It's not my money and frankly I don't care.
Of course, in reality Jrue probably hasn't requested a trade and we probably won't end up moving him anyway: like I've said several times in other threads where Jrue trading has come up, Jrue being ''available'' for trade talks is not the same as actively shopping him. It's just telling people to make their offer.
Bottom line is, you don’t trade Jrue unless it is for future assets that will contribute to success. Not a ridiculous, expiring contract that doesn’t do anything for the future. If Jrue requests a trade, send him to the best destination that benefits both sides. I think a playoff team with some young assets. Preferably, Miami or something like that. Pels can get back Miami’s players not Chris Paul, so some people can wear their old jerseys.
Um. He has a player option for 44m for the 21/22 season. It's literally 3 years on his deal. This season and two more afterwards.
Are you going to seriously sit here and argue that this trade is even close to fair price for Jrue? That Jrue is not even valuable enough on his own and we'd literally have to trade him AND Lonzo and get a return of CP3 and that contract?
You have a lot of good takes on basketball. I'm floored that you're even arguing this one. This should be an obvious no way from anyone who has any type of knowledge of basketball beyond just famous player's names.
Yeah you're right about CP3's contract, although it still doesn't horrify me as much as it seems to horrify you. Yes, it's an egregiously disgusting contract, we all know that. But it wouldn't interfere with extending Ingram, since we have his bird rights, and by the time Zion/Hayes come up for extension, he's off the books. His contract wouldn't interfere with the upcoming FA class, because that class is garbage anyway, and with the addition of another draftee this Summer, we'll have yet another promising young player under a cost controlled contract.
It's all functional within the confines of the cap. The only reason you'd have to be specifically concerned about CP3's money is if you think it would stop us from signing/trading for someone else, because I doubt that you're particularly concerned about Gayle's bank account in general. Perhaps you would just rather hang on to the flexibility that comes with a smaller deal, sure, and I can't argue with that but frankly that's a prioritisation issue rather than someone being factually wrong.
I find it pretty odd that you're acting as if moving Lonzo is a cost rather than a benefit.
You keep saying "you'd have to lose Jrue AND Lonzo!!!"
Like yes, losing Lonzo is a good thing. That's a benefit for us. He is bad.
Edit: and I will add, that's not me defending the trade overall. Obviously you can (and you in particular probably would) still take a big issue with it, that's fine. Just not really understanding the thought there. ''Oh no! They want Lonzo?!'' Like yes, please, get rid of him, thank you.
We should have dealt Holiday when we traded Davis. This team as constructed was at best good enough to be in the hunt for a playoff spot. That's not where you want to be when you just drafted a 19year old potential franchise, maybe even generational talent. You want to be in a position where you give said player every opportunity to make as many mistakes as possible while simultaneously surrounding said player with as many young cheap talented core as you can draft. Griffin doesn't get this concept and as a result made a terrible this offseason. Luckily we are going to be bad enough anyways to potentially get another high draft pick in the offseason.
There is a benefit to providing a winning structure around Zion. If you want to worry about who's good enough to be here when we're really ready to win, the best way to evaluate that would be to see who can fill a role on a competitive team, not who can put up meaningless stats in a mindless series of losses.
The reason is very simple. You cannot just be willing to take on a garbage contract because you have the cap space. Every team has to PAY to get rid of bad contracts. You are suggesting we give up Jrue to take on a WAY worse contract. Lonzo is a 1yr deal for 11m next season. You are suggesting we take on over 100m in contracts that takes away flexibility for 3 years just to dump 1yr/11m AND give up Jrue for it? Lonzo can be moved any time we want at either a neutral trade or for a very slight negative. So we take on this terrible contract, give up Jrue, give Lonzo who is still on a rookie deal, and we get back what for our troubles?
What's even the benefit of having CP3 on this team? We have vets and can get vets much cheaper. It's not like CP3 has ever even won anything so you can't say he can teach these kids how to win. Is he a better PG than we currently have on the team? Offensively, yeah probably. But that's it. He knows how to run an offense.
This is about cost vs value. You don't GIVE UP Jrue to take back one of the worst contracts in the NBA and nothing else.
Ignoring the stuff about the contract cost, because I've already conceded that CP3s deal is egregiously bad and falls easily within the 5 worst deals in the NBA, I would add that I was fairly clear I'd also expect back at least one of OKC's accumulated haul of FRPs, probably two to be honest.
That said, I'm not going to take serious ''it's not like CP3 has ever even won anything'' as an argument. CP3 has had a career plagued by injury, both to himself and other team-mates, yes, and that's prevented him from winning it all. But it's not by mistake that prior to this season, he had won at least 50 games in 7 straight seasons. It's not by mistake that he was one injury away from the finals last year. It's not by mistake that he's 14th all time in Win Shares, or that he's the all-time NBA leader in career offensive rating. He knows how to win games better than literally everyone on our team right now, and that includes the coach.
He's also a better defensive PG than we currently have on the team. It seems insane that a 6'0, 34 year old PG is better defensively than, say, Lonzo Ball, but he is. He's still a very capable defender. He would instantly be one of the best 5 defenders on this team, day one, even if Jrue somehow stayed on the team.
Everything else is just personal view. Obviously it's fine if you don't want CP3 on the team because of how he left before, and it's fine if you think that his contract would weigh down all of the big-splash FA moves that this team apparently is capable of making in the next 3 years. But once we get to the ''lets insult CP3 as a player'' portion of the conversation, I'm not really interested frankly.
I think you addressed the issues well and agreed the contract is just too much of an albatross. However, my small nitpick would be these comments. It was made a whole lot easier that he demanded his way onto those teams. He cherry picked where he would play in order to take advantage of good teams.
I dont think that matters too much to be honest. On the Clippers, for example, a huge part of why those teams was good was CP3 himself. Blake was constantly injured and the roster was generally fairly top heavy. DJs impact on offense was made possible in large part by CP3, for example. He may have demanded a trade to get there but it's not like LAC was a world-beater he bandwagoned on, he made them good in the first place.
The Rockets is slightly different because of course Harden was awesome anyway, but compare this year's Rockets team to the Rockets when CP3 was active and it's still a fairly drastic difference.
I think I have comfortably settled on the reality I would be very pro a CP3 trade for the Pelicans, contract and all.
— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) December 20, 2019
Oh hey look, I'm not the only one :hihi:
He just brings SO much of what the Pelicans need in a lead ball handler for the next few years as they make their ascent.
— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) December 20, 2019
A team that would love to have Jrue would be the Warriors. Would Russell and a pick be enough? Would Russell fit with this team?
But see now you're changing the argument. First it was "his contract isn't that bad". Then when I pointed out that no it actually is, you turned it into, "Yeah. But..."
Then the original argument was we wouldn't need to receive additional pieces outside of CP3 himself, which I flat out said was crazy, so now it's shifted to, "Id expect an asset back from their haul.... And probably two."
Well that damn well changes the entire argument now doesn't it? I still think it's stupid to go after CP3 for this team because it pushes us towards a more win now direction than we should be. Especially after we just saw what pushing for win now with AD resulted it. I just don't understand why this fan base wants to keep trying to rush things instead of doing like the Bucks did with Giannis and just allow the team to be bad for awhile. Let's play NAW, let's play Frank, let's let our rookies grow through some stuff and get better. Let's let Favors teach Hayes.
But the ORIGINAL argument that under no circumstances I wanted anything to do with was getting CP3 and nothing back while giving up Jrue and Lonzo. If you want to sit here now and keep changing the trade around, sure there's probably one that works. For example, you quoted Kumar but his trade he suggested didn't have Jrue in it. It was Moore, Favors, Lonzo for CP3. Yeah that's ALOT easier for me to accept than Jrue, Lonzo for CP3.
I've said, clearly, that I think CP3s contract is one of the worst in the NBA. Not the worst, I think Westbrook and Wall are more terrible for example, but it's bad. And in fact, I've said that in this very thread before you even replied to me. I called it a ''monster deal'' and I quoted Schwan when he called it a ''turdbowl contract''. Then after you replied, I called it ''obnoxious'' and pointed out that it's one of the worst in basketball. I even called it ''egregiously disgusting''. Nowhere in this thread have I said that his contract ''isn't that bad''.
What I said was that even though it's bad, I don't really care about it because it wouldn't impact our ability to resign Ingram, pay our younger guys, and draft new rookies. Which it wouldn't. So I don't care that it's bad. There's a difference between saying something ''isn't that bad'' and saying something is ''egregiously disgusting'' but that I don't care.
You're saying that I ''shifted to'' expecting an asset back, when actually I had said back on the first page (before you even posted in this thread) that we would want ''a draft pick, sure'' to Fedupfan, although I also noted that it would probably be one of the none-OKC picks because they have a ton and they'd probably want to keep their own. The expectation of other assets was set before you posted.
The appeal of trading for CP3 is to provide a more stable and consistent environment for growth while also removing some of the more volatile and harmful elements of the current situation, rather than winning now imo.
The team, as it currently is, is rudderless. We have no control. The offense is unfocused, lazy, immature, devoid of style or consistency, and ineffectual. None of that is conducive to providing a good environment to acclimatise rookies to the NBA, or to develop them.
Edit: edited cause I felt like the original post sounded too condescending, which really wasn't the intention.
I feel pretty confident we can do that for significantly less than the 100+ million CP3 would cost in the next 2.5 years. Even though I'm seeing a lack of experience & a lack of cohesion (both offensively & defensively) which is losing games I'm also seeing individual improvement. At this point I'd rather let the kids get that experience by playing through it & learning through their mistakes. By the trade deadline we can dispense of some parts that will not be part of the future for some additional veteran stability, role players more so than stars. I think as they gain more experience & cohesion in addition to reinforcements from Zion & whatever vet stability they acquire they'll start seeing more success especially as this will coincide with an easier schedule.
Top 10 players by Wins Added so far this season —>
— Jacob Goldstein (@JacobEGoldstein) December 21, 2019
James Harden: 6.3
Giannis Antetokounmpo: 6.0
LeBron James: 5.3
Luka Doncic: 4.5
Anthony Davis: 4.5
Jimmy Butler: 4.2
Chris Paul: 3.6
Damian Lillard: 3.6
Bam Adebayo: 3.6
Kawhi Leonard: 3.5
CP3, still good at basketball.