Man luka Is amazing and looks like a future MVP. He does it completely on skill not really athletic. We know zion can be very special as well. Who would you take?
Luka or Zion - if you had to pick one to start a franchise
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11-02-2019, 01:20 PMSpeakthetruthLuka or Zion - if you had to pick one to start a franchise
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11-02-2019, 01:23 PMPelicanidae
Zion, but Luka wouldn't be a bad choice.
I mean, I feel like the risk here is that Zion is (for all of his huge upside) still technically an unknown because he's never played in the NBA officially, whereas with Luka, he's a known commodity since he's already shown his star qualities on an NBA roster for over a year now. -
11-02-2019, 01:43 PMMythrol
If I am building a franchise I want someone who has great handles and can dominate with the ball in their hands. I don't know how good Zion's handles are at this moment.
Because of that I go with Luka atm. I think there's a far more interesting debate between Luka and Trae Young. Although I'd still go Luka. If Zion comes in and shows you can put the ball in his hands and he can create his own opportunities then I would chose him. But in the playoffs you simply have to have a guy who you put the ball in his hands and he breaks down the defense. -
11-02-2019, 01:44 PMJJackisangry
The Lakers had to put a hit on Luka to win that game last night and showed some of the worst sportsmanship I have seen in some time. Way I see it, superstars that can run a team (Luka, Lebron, etc.) are more valuable than superstars that can’t. Luckily for us, Zion seems to check that box too. He has no qualms being the man.
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11-02-2019, 03:47 PMMythrolI didn't see the Lakers game. What did they do?Quote:
Originally Posted by JJackisangry
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11-02-2019, 03:50 PMPelicanidaeHe got ''roughed'' a little bit. Looked clearly concussed for the last little while, a lot of people were concerned that he looked half out of it. After the game, Luka claimed he didn't have a concussion because he'd been checked, but NBA protocol for concussion tests require the recipient being in a quiet and distraction-free environment and he never left the bench. Had to get 3 stitches in his head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythrol
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11-02-2019, 03:56 PMJJackisangryLuka was down and the Dallas players were checking to make sure he was all right and the Lakers just made a transition basket while everyone was checking on him. It just rubbed me the wrong wayQuote:
Originally Posted by Mythrol
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11-02-2019, 05:03 PMbloodypelican
Lakers got away with murder in that game
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11-02-2019, 05:51 PMDarkhorse985
Taking the Pelicans glasses off to see that Luka is the obvious choice. He is a point forward who is already clutch and will likely be a top 10 player in the league this year at the age of 20.
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11-18-2019, 09:54 PMSpeakthetruth
40 point triple double ewww
Lebron with a better shot
Worse defender, much worse athelism -
11-18-2019, 10:38 PMUNO Gracias
I would take Luka, his game won’t break down as he gets older. Plus, nobody knows what Zion is, or how he will play.
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11-18-2019, 11:02 PMPelicanidaeI mean, surely the fact that Zion is a slight unknown could be taken as a pro or a con? The con being, of course, that Luka has proven his ability, and the pro being that all of the historically-great projections surrounding Zion could still be totally true as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by UNO Gracias
I would also disagree that Luka's game won't break down. Firstly, because I think the assumption that Zion's will is a kind of speculative one: I think Zion has enough IQ, passing feel, touch as a finisher, etc, that even as his athleticism cools off he will still be a top quality player. On the other hand, Zion's defensive ceiling is far higher than Luka's, and as Luka ages and his already fairly low footspeed and athleticism takes that dip, it would be easy to see Luka becoming a truly dreadful defender.
There's also an issue of peak vs sustain. Would you rather pick 10-12 years of Luka as an A tier player, or 7-10 years of Zion as an A++ player? -
11-18-2019, 11:56 PMAs I See ItKind 'a like Larry Bird?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
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11-19-2019, 12:13 AMmsusousaphone
We put soooooooo much emphasis on a player's offense and ignore the defensive side, too often. That's why Kawhi and the GS boys win championships while the Hardens of the World rack up stats. Because of that, I'll go Zion. Luka is amazing and has the potential to be an MVP but Zion has the ability to become the best two way player in the NBA......and that means ships.
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11-19-2019, 12:34 AMPelicanidaeI mean, not really since Bird was, in his younger years, a better defender than Luka has shown any signs of being (although in Luka's defense, he's still younger than Bird was as a rookie, so there's always the possibility of growth as a team defender even if his 1v1 D is lacking). So Bird had further to fall.Quote:
Originally Posted by As I See It
But even if I do mean like Bird, so what? I don't think it's a contentious claim to say that Bird's value at 33 was lower than it was when he was 28 and could still play strong defense. -
11-19-2019, 08:29 AMMythrol
Is there a world that exists where Zion is not just one but two tiers better than Luka and sustains that level of production for 10 years? I just don't see it. Luka is playing at nearly the same level as LBJ at the same age. That's rare territory to begin with. To suggest that Zion will come in multiple levels higher than Luka and then sustain that for 7-10 years is I think a bit ahead of ourselves. That's basically saying Zion will be the best player ever to play the game and will sustain that level of play for a decade. Not impossible but that's a big projection compared to the guaranteed level that Luka is already playing at.
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11-19-2019, 09:54 AMmsusousaphone
Luka is only playing at LeBron's level on half the things that a player does. You just can't compare a one sided pony to a two way player. Would you rather have Harden or Kawhi?
Why do we keep undervaluing defense? -
11-19-2019, 10:04 AMfullcourtpress
luka unfortunately. it's close but its hard not to go with the known commodity
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11-19-2019, 10:17 AMAs I See It
Investors were faced with this question a few years back when the question was: IBM or Apple? One was a known; the other was a start-up. As things have played out, Apple has surpassed IBM as the Number One Computer company in the world. This is not to say that 'Big Blue' is not still as sound an investment as there is.
Personally, IBM; I mean Luka. -
11-19-2019, 11:08 AMkinglio21093
Zion hasn't played a game yet. Luka is a star. I'll take Luka until Zion proves it.
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11-19-2019, 01:41 PMPelicanidaeYeah, I do think that's an absolutely fair viewpoint, and it may end up being the "right" viewpoint as well. When im defending the Zion choice, I don't want to play that I think anyone is stupid for picking Luka, cause they're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by kinglio21093
We're talking about two generational talents here. -
11-19-2019, 04:35 PMMythrolPeople forget that Lebron was not the defender in his first year that he was in his prime. If you go strictly off of stats Luka in his rookie year had a very similar defensive impact as rookie Lebron and in multiple categories was better.Quote:
Originally Posted by msusousaphone
Of course numbers only tell you so much but offensive Luka was better as a rookie than LBJ and defensive numbers say it was push between them.
Luka is not Harden on defense and people need to stop that narrative. Even if Luka was Harden, there's no guarantee that Zion is Kwahi so to paint the decision like as false narrative. We just don't know what Zion will be yet. It's expected he will be better on defense but it's very likely he won't reach Luka's level on offense. I don't think there's a wrong answer to picking Zion or Luka but let's not minimize Luka to try to build up a guy who hasn't played a single minute in the NBA yet. -
11-19-2019, 05:08 PMPelicanidaeJust to respond to this specific section: yes, it's true that Luka is not Harden on defense, but in Harden's defense, he isn't Harden on defense anymore either :hihi: And a large part of why Luka is a superior defender to Harden is just to just his innate size and strength advantage, rather than because he's actually that much better overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythrol
Secondly, Zion wouldn't have to be Kawhi to be multiple times better as a defender than Luka in the situation where Luka was Harden. He'd just have to be like, Mo Harkless on defense, and he'd wipe the floor with Luka on that side of the ball. -
11-21-2019, 12:31 AMPelicanidae
Lol, I'm sticking with Zion just because I do genuinely believe that his 1% top outcome is better than Luka's top 1% outcome, but man, Luka really is something.
Like I said earlier in this thread,
Luka's last 7 games:Quote:
I don't want to say that I think anyone is stupid for picking Luka, cause they're not.
We're talking about two generational talents here.
35pts, 10rbds, 11asts on 61% shooting in 26 minutes (only second person to ever register at least 30/10/10 in under 30 minutes, with Jokic)
42pts, 11rbds, 12asts on 52% shooting
26pts, 15rbds, 7asts on 36% shooting
33pts, 10rbds, 11asts on 44% shooting
34pts, 6rbds, 9asts, on 52% shooting
24pts, 14rbds, 8asts on 56% shooting
38pts, 14rbds, 10asts on 50% shooting
He's not even 21 until the end of February and he's just annihilating everything.
He is 4th in ppg, 11th in rpg, 2nd in apg, shooting 62% TS. He has 7 triple doubles in 14 games. -
11-21-2019, 04:45 PMpelicanchamp
Zion. Pure dominance unseen since Shaq. I honestly think he’s going to be like a cheat code. Luka is incredible but I don’t believe he has the intangibles that Zion has.....
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11-21-2019, 05:58 PMSoCal4Pels
Part of me says that over the long-term, Zion's insane explosiveness may cause his joints and connective tissues to explode at a premature date, and Luka's game, which is not predicated on really any type of speed or athleticism, could be indicative of an extremely long and fruitful career.
I think Barkley and Kemp are the closest thing we have to predict for Zion's physical longevity, and Barkley did alright I think, and Kemp I think would have if he had a nutritionist.
So, even though I think Luka is amazing, one of my favorite players in the league really, gonna have to go with Zion for biased/emotional reasons; he has the potential to be the most exciting player in history. -
11-21-2019, 07:15 PMEman5805Zion's game is not just speed or athleticism either. Those augment his other attributes and give him GOAT potential, but you're basically implying that Zion is just a high flying player.Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels
He's got great vision, he's going to hustle, he's got great hands, excellent touch, strong as an ox, has solid handle, and his feel for the game is advanced.
He would have all those things even if he had the athleticism of Zach Randolph. -
11-21-2019, 07:35 PMPelicanidaeThis is my take as well. It's easy to look at Zion, who obviously benefits from being stunningly fast and having nuclear bounce, and say ''well that's what he's got, so when he ages and he slows down athletically, he'll be chopped liver''.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman5805
But as you point out, he has other skills that don't require him to have any bounce whatsoever, and some of those skills will only improve with age. His handle is better than many give him credit for, and it's only going to get better; that will not leave him as he ages. You point out his vision, which I think is truly a special part of his game that will give him a lot of added value, and that vision doesn't die as players age either: look at Lebron averaging a career high in assists 17 years into his career, or Stockton being a positive passer at age 39 and 40. Obviously Zion's vision isn't on quite Lebron's level, sure, but the point remains.
I feel like it's obviously possible that Zion never reaches his absolute peak of potential: most players never do, and that isn't a knock on them. It requires hard work, luck, good situations, general good health, a good development staff, etc, for a player to truly hit 100%. But if he does, he has top 10 all time ability, imo. -
11-21-2019, 09:40 PMSoCal4PelsI watched every single Duke game last season, and you can bet I have NEVER said nor implied that Zion is just a high flyer ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eman5805
My point was simply, from a physiological longevity standpoint if you are picking a 'franchise player', regardless of Zion's other skills (which you barely even touched on), there is a greater than average possibility that the career of an athlete generating inhuman amounts of torque could be shorter than an average or below average athlete. I am not saying Luka's game is not predicated on athleticism 'compared to Zion', I am saying his game is not predicated on athleticism compared to a large number of superstars.
Now, if you would like to chat about whether Zion or Luka would be preferable if they had identical athletic abilities, i.e. an older 'post-athletic Zion', that is another discussion...