E'twaun Moore, Small Forward

With Solomon Hill out, SF is the remaining open spot in the starting line up

1 - Rondo
2 - Holiday
3 -
4 - Davis
5 - Cousins


Cunningham, Allen, and Miller are all options at SF, but Moore could actually be the best fit in the starting lineup. He is the best perimeter shooter on the team, and there's enough ball handling in the starting lineup that Moore can play to his strength as a spot up shooter. He has shown the defensive ability to guard bigger players on the wing. It kind of makes sense on both sides of the ball.

hell no too small

I advocate for Tony Allen to start. Play him the first 5 minutes of the 1st and 3rd quarters then substitute when needed.

He's not the best perimeter shooter on the team, either.

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Originally Posted by PelicanNation

hell no too small

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Moore and Allen both listed as 6'4"

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

He's not the best perimeter shooter on the team, either.

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Who is better?

Cunningham shot a higher percentage on almost exactly the same number of attempts per game (2.8 per game for Moore, 2.7 per game for Cunningham). Crawford shot a higher percentage for 2+ more attempts per game.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Cunningham shot a higher percentage on almost exactly the same number of attempts per game (2.8 per game for Moore, 2.7 per game for Cunningham). Crawford shot a higher percentage for 2+ more attempts per game.

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To be fair though, Moore shot like 45% his last year in Chicago. So he at least has a better track record.

Gentry appears to like having Moore come off the bench and he's been reluctant to use three guard lineups in the past. I would expect to see Miller start so Cunningham can take the backup PF minutes. That would leave the backup SF minutes to be divided between Allen and Clark.

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

To be fair though, Moore shot like 45% his last year in Chicago. So he at least has a better track record.

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Maybe if that happened during more than one season I’d be more inclined to go along. He took 100 three point shots that year in Chicago. The 650 three pointers he has taken before and since he has hit at only 35.5%.

I would hope with continual repetition, the open looks our bigs can generate, and our shooting coaches, that Moore can at least be as good or better than his 37% last year, but I’m not ready to expect an Eric Gordon type output.

Though he’s always been streaky, so maybe with the other shooting guards we have, we relegate him to usage on the nights he is hot, at least maximizing his output. IDK. Just hot-taking it up.

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

To be fair though, Moore shot like 45% his last year in Chicago. So he at least has a better track record.

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That's true, he shot 45.2% on less than 2 attempts per game. It would be a dream if he could meet somewhere in the middle and shoot something like 42% on 3/4 attempts per game. No clue if that will ever happen though.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Maybe if that happened during more than one season I’d be more inclined to go along. He took 100 three point shots that year in Chicago. The 650 three pointers he has taken before and since he has hit at only 35.5%.

I would hope with continual repetition, the open looks our bigs can generate, and our shooting coaches, that Moore can at least be as good or better than his 37% last year, but I’m not ready to expect an Eric Gordon type output.

Though he’s always been streaky, so maybe with the other shooting guards we have, we relegate him to usage on the nights he is hot, at least maximizing his output. IDK. Just hot-taking it up.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That's true, he shot 45.2% on less than 2 attempts per game. It would be a dream if he could meet somewhere in the middle and shoot something like 42% on 3/4 attempts per game. No clue if that will ever happen though.

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Agreed!

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Moore and Allen both listed as 6'4"

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Yes, but one is tough as nails, physical, rebounds, and has been part-iming at SF for years.

The other is really a pure SG that would be playing up out of position in a murderous Western Conference. Gentry has threatened to platoon the spot, which I generally think is a bad idea because it doesn't allow a team to settle in and develop chemistry. But in this case..maybe. You could start Moore against the teams that don't have threats at SF. He could start against the Jazz or the Kings or the Rockets. But he would get slaughtered if you messed around with that against Golden State or OKC or the Spurs.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Cunningham shot a higher percentage on almost exactly the same number of attempts per game (2.8 per game for Moore, 2.7 per game for Cunningham). Crawford shot a higher percentage for 2+ more attempts per game.

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You really think Cunningham is the best perimeter shooter on the team? Last season was the first time Cunningham has looked good shooting from the perimeter, and he shot almost exclusively open corner 3's. He did look much improved shooting the corner 3 and I think that should earn him an increased role. But it doesn't mean he is a better spot up perimeter shooter than Moore. If you look at their career numbers from the perimeter there is a pretty big difference.

Crawford played 19 games in the last 3 years, so yeah.... Moore is our best perimeter shooter.

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Originally Posted by Bricklayer

Yes, but one is tough as nails, physical, rebounds, and has been part-iming at SF for years.

The other is really a pure SG that would be playing up out of position in a murderous Western Conference. Gentry has threatened to platoon the spot, which I generally think is a bad idea because it doesn't allow a team to settle in and develop chemistry. But in this case..maybe. You could start Moore against the teams that don't have threats at SF. He could start against the Jazz or the Kings or the Rockets. But he would get slaughtered if you messed around with that against Golden State or OKC or the Spurs.

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Don't the Pelicans switch on defense a lot? He already has experience guarding 3's. As I understand the Pelicans are quite comfortable with Moore guarding small forwards, a big part of his value is the ability to guard guys bigger than him.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

You really think Cunningham is the best perimeter shooter on the team? Last season was the first time Cunningham has looked good shooting from the perimeter, and he shot almost exclusively open corner 3's. He did look much improved shooting the corner 3 and I think that should earn him an increased role. But it doesn't mean he is a better spot up perimeter shooter than Moore. If you look at their career numbers from the perimeter there is a pretty big difference.

Crawford played 19 games in the last 3 years, so yeah.... Moore is our best perimeter shooter.

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Not at all. Obviously Moore has the potential to be our best perimeter shooter, but you have to consider attempts too. The year he shot over 45% from 3, he took less than two shots from that distance per game. Last year was actually the first year in his career that he took more than 2 per game and shot over 36%. Cunningham, by contrast, shot over 39% from 3, on an equal number of attempts in only his second year shooting threes at all. Obviously Moore has shown the potential to be a truly knockout shooter, but you'd be lying to yourself to think that Moore's 45% year was anything other than a huge anomaly in his career so far.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Not at all. Obviously Moore has the potential to be our best perimeter shooter, but you have to consider attempts too. The year he shot over 45% from 3, he took less than two shots from that distance per game. Last year was actually the first year in his career that he took more than 2 per game and shot over 36%. Cunningham, by contrast, shot over 39% from 3, on an equal number of attempts in only his second year shooting threes at all. Obviously Moore has shown the potential to be a truly knockout shooter, but you'd be lying to yourself to think that Moore's 45% year was anything other than a huge anomaly in his career so far.

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If you are going to dismiss Moore's best shooting season as an outlier have to do the same with Cunningham. I'm not saying Moore is lights out, but he is a better perimeter shooter than Cunningham and he's the best we got.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Don't the Pelicans switch on defense a lot? He already has experience guarding 3's. As I understand the Pelicans are quite comfortable with Moore guarding small forwards, a big part of his value is the ability to guard guys bigger than him.

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Well, Moore's defensive value is a bit dubious. By the numbers he's a mildly minus defender. And whatever defensive scheme the Pels have used in the past is necessarily going to have to be adjusted to a new roster full of combo guards and big F/Cs and Cs. Makes it hard to switch effectively without many quality midsize bodies.

I think Miller is pretty clearly the best fit if he has truly improved his confidence. He has every tool the Pels want in a starting SF, and gives them freedom to run DC at the backup 4. All he has to do is hit the 3 and not have sticky hands on O, and provide average D. Not really asking much and I think he'll provide.

Love Moore's skill set but his versatility is needed on the bench unit.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

If you are going to dismiss Moore's best shooting season as an outlier have to do the same with Cunningham. I'm not saying Moore is lights out, but he is a better perimeter shooter than Cunningham and he's the best we got.

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Even if the %s are the same, Moore is taking more difficult 3s than Cunningham, it's not really close.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

I think Miller is pretty clearly the best fit if he has truly improved his confidence. He has every tool the Pels want in a starting SF, and gives them freedom to run DC at the backup 4. All he has to do is hit the 3 and not have sticky hands on O, and provide average D. Not really asking much and I think he'll provide.

Love Moore's skill set but his versatility is needed on the bench unit.

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I wonder how his defence is gonna look like. Did he get better or worse while playing in Europe. My guess is that he got better offensively but possibly get worse defencively as probably it wasnt really required from him and he didnt have to guard NBA level players. I remember him being a bit slow but decent defensively.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

If you are going to dismiss Moore's best shooting season as an outlier have to do the same with Cunningham. I'm not saying Moore is lights out, but he is a better perimeter shooter than Cunningham and he's the best we got.

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I'm not dismissing it, I've already said he definitely has shown the potential, but the fact is that he also has multiple other years shooting 2+ attempts per game, and falling well short of 40%. They both have one season of 40% shooting, the difference is that Cunningham has only tried twice whereas Moore has been trying for a long time and has just fallen short. And in their individual 40% seasons, Cunningham shot way more attempts, so if anyone had the more massive sample size at 40%, it's Cunningham and we can't just assume Moore will be our best shooter.

SOURCE: NBA DRAFT COMBINE






Looking at the physical measurements several players can guard the three. In rare cases AD can also be used



PLAYER HEIGHT W/SHOES WINGSPAN STANDING REACH NO STEP VERTICAL

E'TWAUN MOORE 6'4" 6'9.5" 8'3.5" 32"

JORDAN CRAWFORD 6'4.5" 6'7" 8'5" 31.5"

JRUE HOLIDAY 6'4" 6'7" 8'4.5" 28.5"

TONY ALLEN 6'4" 6'9" 8'6" 31.5"

DARIUS MILLER 6'7.5" 6'9" 8'5" 33"

SOLOMON HILL 6'7" 6'9" 8'7" 29.5"

DANTE CUNNINGHAM 6'8" 6'11" 8'10.5" 28"

I see Cunningham as the starting SF. Moore will be a liability guarding other SF. If we put Moore in at SF it should be off the bench and he should have Tony Allen playing SG with him so they can switch against tough SFs.


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#DoItBig

Rondo, Clark

Holiday, Moore

Miller, Allen

Davis, Cunningham, Diallo

Cousins.

Cunningham plays 3 when the matchup is intense.

AD is the "back up Center"

Ajinca and Crawford spot start or play more, if injury. Simple.


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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I'm not dismissing it, I've already said he definitely has shown the potential, but the fact is that he also has multiple other years shooting 2+ attempts per game, and falling well short of 40%. They both have one season of 40% shooting, the difference is that Cunningham has only tried twice whereas Moore has been trying for a long time and has just fallen short. And in their individual 40% seasons, Cunningham shot way more attempts, so if anyone had the more massive sample size at 40%, it's Cunningham and we can't just assume Moore will be our best shooter.

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Almost all of Cunningham's 3pt attempts came from the same spot. He has not demonstrated an ability to shoot from anywhere besides the corner. And Moore has better career 3 point percentage. I don't see how you can say Cunningham is the best perimeter shooter on the team just because he had 1 season of shooting the corner 3 well.

I like Darius Miller at SF. He was really good in Europe.

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Originally Posted by OnesieBells

I like Darius Miller at SF. He was really good in Europe.

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All he has to do is knock down open threes

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Almost all of Cunningham's 3pt attempts came from the same spot. He has not demonstrated an ability to shoot from anywhere besides the corner. And Moore has better career 3 point percentage. I don't see how you can say Cunningham is the best perimeter shooter on the team just because he had 1 season of shooting the corner 3 well.

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I'm not going over this again. This will be the last thing I say about this topic, because frankly it's boring and it's becoming increasingly obviously you aren't even reading what I'm writing.

Moore is a good shooter. He has shown that when he shoots low volumes he can have insane percentages. He has also shown through multiple years that as soon as he is needed to shoot higher volumes, that percentage plummets.

Dante has no track record, because prior to last 2 seasons he never took any threes. So we can only judge on what we have seen, and in the two seasons he has been shooting threes his ability has been abundantly obvious, even with the same volume that sinks Moore's consistency.

There is no evidence to show that Cunningham can only shoot from the corners and that Moore can shoot from anywhere. In fact, if you look at their shot charts, they both shoot essentially the same percentage from the corners, and again, Dante does so on more attempts. Moore made more attempts from elsewhere around the arc, but his actual percentages are no higher: in fact, Cunningham has more hotspots around the arc with numerous shots made than Moore does.

Again, to clarify, I am NOT saying that Cunningham is invariably and inevitably our best perimeter shooter due to one season. I am saying it is very presumptive to gift that title to Moore before the season even begins despite him having a career filled with low shooting at higher volumes. I think it is more likely that Cunningham remains the same this year as he did last than it is for Moore to suddenly shoot 45% again on almost twice the number of attempts.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I'm not going over this again. This will be the last thing I say about this topic, because frankly it's boring and it's becoming increasingly obviously you aren't even reading what I'm writing.

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Yes your responses are pretty boring, so I will appreciate you not repeating yourself again because unfortunately I have been reading what you wrote.

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Moore is a good shooter. He has shown that when he shoots low volumes he can have insane percentages. He has also shown through multiple years that as soon as he is needed to shoot higher volumes, that percentage plummets.

Dante has no track record, because prior to last 2 seasons he never took any threes. So we can only judge on what we have seen, and in the two seasons he has been shooting threes his ability has been abundantly obvious, even with the same volume that sinks Moore's consistency.

There is no evidence to show that Cunningham can only shoot from the corners and that Moore can shoot from anywhere. In fact, if you look at their shot charts, they both shoot essentially the same percentage from the corners, and again, Dante does so on more attempts. Moore made more attempts from elsewhere around the arc, but his actual percentages are no higher: in fact, Cunningham has more hotspots around the arc with numerous shots made than Moore does.

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Here is the evidence. Last season Cunningham shot over 46% from 3pt in one spot on the floor and shot < 36% from everywhere else behind the arc.

http://nbasavant.com/player.php?ddlY...ayer_id=201967

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Again, to clarify, I am NOT saying that Cunningham is invariably and inevitably our best perimeter shooter due to one season. I am saying it is very presumptive to gift that title to Moore before the season even begins despite him having a career filled with low shooting at higher volumes. I think it is more likely that Cunningham remains the same this year as he did last than it is for Moore to suddenly shoot 45% again on almost twice the number of attempts.

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To recap, I said Moore is our best perimeter shooter, you disagreed and said Cunningham is better. Now you are trying to back away from it because upon further examination it is hard to defend that argument. According to you Cunningham has no track record shooting threes (did you mentally block out the previous season in which he put up over 150 attempts and did not have a good percentage?) According to the data he has a hot spot in the corner and below average everywhere else. A guy who has 1 year of good shooting from 1 spot on the floor is not our best perimeter shooter.... that just doesn't ring true.

I just don't see how ppl are putting Crawford behind Clark... The dude name is instant grits..

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Yes your responses are pretty boring, so I will appreciate you not repeating yourself again because unfortunately I have been reading what you wrote.

Here is the evidence. Last season Cunningham shot over 46% from 3pt in one spot on the floor and shot < 36% from everywhere else behind the arc.

http://nbasavant.com/player.php?ddlY...ayer_id=201967

To recap, I said Moore is our best perimeter shooter, you disagreed and said Cunningham is better. Now you are trying to back away from it because upon further examination it is hard to defend that argument. According to you Cunningham has no track record shooting threes (did you mentally block out the previous season in which he put up over 150 attempts and did not have a good percentage?) According to the data he has a hot spot in the corner and below average everywhere else. A guy who has 1 year of good shooting from 1 spot on the floor is not our best perimeter shooter.... that just doesn't ring true.

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I looked at those shot charts for both dante and etwuan and it seems to me that you can't really make an argument that one of them is that much better than the other except that one shoots better than they other on different parts of the floor. When you have them both on the floor at the same time what you have is a greater than 45% shooter from each of the corners. At least based on last year's numbers.

This is a lot of argument over a fairly meaningless decision imo. I think everyone should agree that Moore should play the most minutes out of the bunch, as well as finish most games. He's undoubtedly the 5th best player on the roster. I don't think Gentry will stick to the same starting lineup unless Miller proves he deserves to be in there. If Miller can't play, Gentry will rotate starters depending on matchups

I would argue Allen, Cunningham, and maybe even Diallo and Crawford are better than Moore. Miller might be as well but I will wait on that one.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

This is a lot of argument over a fairly meaningless decision imo. I think everyone should agree that Moore should play the most minutes out of the bunch, as well as finish most games. He's undoubtedly the 5th best player on the roster.

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What is this E'Twaun Moore fascination that occasionally pops up around here? There's very little evidence of him being much more than an entirely mediocre player. Let alone any evidence for him as a SF.


Last year:
PER: 12.1 (NBA Rank: 272nd)
RPM: -1.82 (NBA Rank: 286th)
BPM: -1.3 (NBA Rank: 233rd)
DEF Diff: +2.6% (NBA Rank: 353rd)

Now, you can score poorly in one of those categories, and maybe it's just a statistical blurb. I rarely trust single stats alone. That RPM is nearly identical to Rondo's last year. The BPM is identical to fading Dirk. But to be down in the bottom half of the league in EVERYTHING is hard to dismiss...what is the fascination with a 10pt 2reb 2ast slightly undersized pure SG again? His VORP was 0.3 last year. To get an estimated wins over replacement player you multiply VORP x2.70. Meaning by that estimate E'Twaun was worth about 0.8 wins over the course of the full season compared to just Joe Anybody. His defensive differential, even mostly at his main position, was right down there with Marcus Thornton, Ryan Anderson, and Nik Stauskas (and also Dante Cunningham, who sometimes gets more credit defensively than seems warranted). He's AN option in a sea of flawed options. But the idea that he's adding much in any area of the game is not born out by any stat you can uncover. At best he's a placeholder who won't singlehandedly kill you.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

I would argue Allen, Cunningham, and maybe even Diallo and Crawford are better than Moore. Miller might be as well but I will wait on that one.

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This is entirely absurd. Sure Tony Allen was a great defender but he's not the same player he once was. Cunningham didn't get an offer above the minimum because his game is so one dimensional. Diallo? Crawford? Miller? Three guys on minimum contracts who combined did not play as many minutes last season as Moore. Nearly every national writer said Moore was worth what we paid for him last year. He's a very solid, smart basketball player who is good at just about every phase of the game. He doesn't particularly excel at any single element (if you ignore his 2016 3 point percentage) but he does plenty enough for the team to make him the fifth best player.
He's not a small forward but that really doesn't matter when it comes to minutes played. He can guard any backup wing in the NBA and most starting wings, as well as knock down the open 3 and make smart cuts. The guys you mentioned can all do one or two of those things, but Moore is the only player who can do all of those things consistently at an average to above average level. If a player does everything at an average level, that makes him an above average player. He's kind of the epitome of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Asik was paid a lot of money too. The size of the contract means little to me in evaluating a player.


I didn't even think of Ian Clark, he might be as good as Miller too.

It's all opinion on who the 5th best player on this team is. Maybe you feel it is clear cut, I don't think that it is at all.

I think you can make a reasonable case for Crawford and Clark. If Crawford continues his play from last season, then I'd say he may be better than Moore. If Clark continues to improve, he could become slightly better than Moore. At this point, though, I believe Moore is the 5th best player, and I think its pretty clear from the scrimmage that the team feels so as well.

All things considered, its a good thing for the Pels that maybe you can make a case for someone else other than Moore to be our fifth best option. First of all, that means theres 4 players on the roster that are well-deserving of starting spots, something that had never been said of a Pelicans team before. Second, this roster is still very deep even with the Hill and Jackson injuries, and it was done on minimal contracts. Theres 4-5 bench players on this roster with about league average skill, but well above average bball IQs.

I think that the 5th starter will be platooned. I wouldn't even consider them a "Small Forward". It's all about who they match up against. Some nights it could be Moore, other nights Allen, Miller, or Cunningham.

The nights you play against a weak defensive front court with a strong backcourt/wings, could get more offensive game from Davis/Cousins. Maybe you start Allen since you will get higher offensive production from the front court. Maybe Gentry sees an advantage to start Moore/Miller due to better match-ups on the perimeter.

Also, Jrue has been known to match up well on defense against the other teams "small forward". So technically, Jrue could be your "small forward" and you start Moore with that in mind.

I just think it's not so cut and dry with this team.

If Miller actually plays to his potential that would help this team soooooo much.

Dante is starting tomorrow (per AG).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYOiMDO3Fa8

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Originally Posted by DroopyDawg

Dante is starting tomorrow (per AG).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYOiMDO3Fa8

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Interesting, with Ajinca out and Dante starting at the 3 that means they are going to take a hard look at our young bigs. Gotta watch Diallo, Jones, and Alexander. Especially Diallo he will prob get a ton of minutes.

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Nice perimeter shooting from Moore in the first preseason game, 4 of 6 from 3pt land

Moore looks good in the new system. Suits him very well.