Fire Monty???

Fire Monty Now!!!! Trade Evans NOW!!!! Laughing my {edited - veiled cursing} off, I'm just kidding but it is funny how a good victory can shut a lot of people. up...all the Monty haters go MIA when we play good. jus saying .. Slowly but surely the Pelicans are starting to find their way

I just wanna go streaking. Consistency will shut me the hell up and I'll eat my Crow on French bread with a bag of Zapps and a Big Shot Fruit Punch.

This is one step fwd. be ready for 2steps back

How much did MMembreno make at the bookies today?

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Originally Posted by lsutigers33

This is one step fwd. be ready for 2steps back

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Lol I sadly agree. Hope I'm proven wrong.

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Originally Posted by pelifanatic

Fire Monty Now!!!! Trade Evans NOW!!!! Laughing my azz off, I'm just kidding but it is funny how a good victory can shut a lot of people. up...all the Monty haters go MIA when we play good. jus saying .. Slowly but surely the Pelicans are starting to find their way

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I wouldnt say im totally satisfied with beating the spurs with corey joseph as their pointguard..
And Pelicans have been doing this all year, have a big win.. followed by losing an easy game or getting blown out

@Bulls next game, don't think that is really an expected win for this team.

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Originally Posted by Pantazis76

I wouldnt say im totally satisfied with beating the spurs with corey joseph as their pointguard..
And Pelicans have been doing this all year, have a big win.. followed by losing an easy game or getting blown out

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Damned if you win, damned if you lose.

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Originally Posted by pelifanatic

Fire Monty Now!!!! Trade Evans NOW!!!! Laughing my azz off, I'm just kidding but it is funny how a good victory can shut a lot of people. up...all the Monty haters go MIA when we play good. jus saying .. Slowly but surely the Pelicans are starting to find their way

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Did you really need to make a thread like this bc nxt time we lose Every one will come here and you'll be no where soooo yeeea

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

@Bulls next game, don't think that is really an expected win for this team.

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Bulls are stacked, lots of players are going to have to step up to compete.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

How much did MMembreno make at the bookies today?

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2.7million I'm sure.

Y'all are so quick to defend Monty when they win games.... Monty is a C minus coach in this league because.... Well, tell me what he has shown you in his 5 years as a head coach that makes him worth keeping!

He's got AD that's what he has going for him. He's a players coach and preaches defense. I'm not going to be easy on Monty because this is his last shot and he has the players needed to compete above a .500 record. Fire Monty is right. If we miss the playoffs I wouldn't mind him getting fired.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Y'all are so quick to defend Monty when they win games.... Monty is a C minus coach in this league because.... Well, tell me what he has shown you in his 5 years as a head coach that makes him worth keeping!

He's got AD that's what he has going for him. He's a players coach and preaches defense. I'm not going to be easy on Monty because this is his last shot and he has the players needed to compete above a .500 record. Fire Monty is right. If we miss the playoffs I wouldn't mind him getting fired.

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This team is a year away. We have two large holes on this team. SF and a backup PG . To blame Monty for everything is unfair. This team is really young. We're a year away from being a playoff team. ..

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Y'all are so quick to defend Monty when they win games.... Monty is a C minus coach in this league because.... Well, tell me what he has shown you in his 5 years as a head coach that makes him worth keeping!

He's got AD that's what he has going for him. He's a players coach and preaches defense. I'm not going to be easy on Monty because this is his last shot and he has the players needed to compete above a .500 record. Fire Monty is right. If we miss the playoffs I wouldn't mind him getting fired.

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No it is because people are so quick to blame anyone for the sake of blame, that people defend Monty. If people weren't so aggressive in their abuse of him, and actually criticised him purely for things he controls and causes, there would not be so much defense of Monty. People get angry at losses and jump to blame him for issues with the team (which is fine in the sense he is the coach, they wear that responsibility), but if you step back, we are where we should be in the development of this team (AD's team that is) considering injuries and roster.

3 years AD has been here, and he is 21. What realistically would make people think a team led by a 21 year old has any right to be playoff bound in the west? Constantly calling for Monty to be fired in the first year of having the majority of the team healthy seems ridiculous. Not only that, as mentioned, we have holes in our roster. If you don't like losing, stop watching sport. Yes Monty has faults, as do our players. We are having our best year of the 3 so far, yet people are still complaining. 1 loss, 30 threads complaining. 1 win and this place is dead by comparison. No one has argued Monty is an A+ coach, people like to create their own narrative to keep their wheels spinning.

For as many "trade Evans/fire Monty" threads as there are after a loss, there's equally as many like this after a win. If you guys were superstitious y'all would stop. ;)

Granted, i haven't been a doom and gloom guy this year, but I'm really happy. First time we ever beat the Spurs twice in a row in Pels history. I guess that's disclosing the playoffs(?) I can't remember.

It's pretty simple though: if Ryno and AD play well, we win.

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Originally Posted by SaintPelican225

This team is a year away. We have two large holes on this team. SF and a backup PG . To blame Monty for everything is unfair. This team is really young. We're a year away from being a playoff team. ..

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If we have a losing record this season I will not be disappointed if they fire Monty.

You are right. We all know that we have to add a SF and a backup point.

We should be 19-10 based on the talent we have. We probably won't make the playoffs because our defense is inconsistent and below average. Going into this season I researched our defense and was surprised to find that statistically we are not that good on defense. Even with AD and Jrue....

Monty has had 5 years. We are at 15-14. If we continue at this winning percentage we will miss the playoffs. Even with our weaknesses Our team has enough ability and talent to get in at the 7th or 8th seed. We can beat Portland AND Golden State at home. We have to start beating good teams consistently. If we win 34 more games I think we'll make the playoffs... We'll have to win .600 from here on out. Stop settling for an average record.

If ur gonna praise monty for the wins then its only fare to blame him for losses.

If Monty put Anderson at SF in the starting lineup and eventually took Asik out and put Rivers in with AD, Jrue, Ryno, and Reke then I would think that Monty was utilizing the talent more effectively.

Our team has had a lot of close losses and that's a bad sign to me. Good coaches don't lose a lot of close games. They win a lot more close games than losing close games.

Monty can be unfairly criticized. We have a lot of talent on this roster but the bench is a joke. It's not Monty's fault that the bench is terrible. But I still think he's got to get this team on a respectable winning streak for me to keep my mouth shut.

Heres the rub. No one on here has said Monty is the worst coach in the NBA. Or that he is the sole cause of our problems. Or that he isn't having to work with an incomplete roster. But these are the questions I pose to everyone who wants to defend Monty.

Do you think Monty is a championship caliber coach? I mean is he honestly an elite level coach? And can you back that up with a body of supporting evidence?

Do you think there is and has been no one that could of or can replace him who is better? I.E. there have been no recent past or current alternatives that are better then Monty. If no, can you support that without trying to stack the evidence to one side of the argument and convince a skeptic with a reasonable argument?

Do you think Monty is the sort of coach that can go toe to toe with Popovich, Rick Carlisle, Rivers, Thibadeaux or even Hornacek, Kerr, Joerger, Stotts or Brooks and outcoach them in a 7 game series? Sure he may snatch a few series once AD hits his prime but do you think he is really a coach that can consistently beat these guys(and others that will come along at that same level) that he will be up against for years to come?

What i seem to hear from most Monty supporters is a series of excuses. We have had injuries, we have an incomplete roster, we have a young team, we we're tanking, people only complain in losses, this team is where it should be, even coach X has issues. Some of those(not all) aren't untrue statements. They have merit. But they don't exonerate Monty from a number of the criticisms that keep cropping up about him(rotations, favoritism, slow to adjust, poor defense, lots of close losses, rigid coaching style, poor at adapting outside of his coaching comfort zone etc.) and pointing those excuses defending Monty doesnt prove Monty is a good coach. Even in this thread I haven't read a single compelling argument that convinces me that Monty is a coach I should be getting behind.

And before people try and say I or others are just haters, please go read some of the early threads about Monty, where many people - including me - were giving Monty a fair shake and even were early defenders and liked what we saw. But as the season has gone on a lot of the same issues that have been present for a while seem to continue. And in the end what I want is to win a championship and nothing I have seen from Monty indicates he is the guy I have confidence in holding the clipboard in a playoff run. Or at the very least serving as a bridge in creating a winning culture that re-shapes a franchise.

What the man above me said.

The Monty train has pulled into the station of its final destination. We have gone as far as we can with him, and that's as far as we will go. We all learned something in the process. We learned that Monty could develop talent (like a Doug Collins), but not get you much further than where he can get you with a maxed out roster of Cp3, DX, Ariza, Jack roster. He will land on his feet in another place coaching up talent, but he isn't the guy that will take you to that next level.

I think you are getting confused. I actually can't think of anyone on this board who said they want Monty as the head coach. As in, if George Karl and Monty had a public vote for coach, people on this board wouldn't be jumping at Monty. This thread is obviously targeting the highly emotional posts that bring no constructive feedback. People need to differentiate between haters, and people who criticize valid points. To be fair, on the other end of the spectrum, I can't think of any posters who blatantly ignore all criticism of Monty and blindly say he is the best coach. Can anyone name anyone? Most Monty "defenders" are actually people who think players need to put their hand up for their faults, and not just blame the coach. Or find it rich when people blame Monty for things he has no control over (at a looser sense, lets not get pedantic and say a coach can directly influence everything each player does, teams have off nights).

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Do you think Monty is the sort of coach that can go toe to toe with Popovich, Rick Carlisle, Rivers, Thibadeaux or even Hornacek, Kerr, Joerger, Stotts or Brooks and outcoach them in a 7 game series? Sure he may snatch a few series once AD hits his prime but do you think he is really a coach that can consistently beat these guys(and others that will come along at that same level) that he will be up against for years to come?[/INDENT

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I have never seen any evidence that any of the listed coaches other than Popovich can outcoach each other reliably, let alone in a 7-game series. Of that list, only Popovich and Rivers have won a title, both with very deep teams with a minimum of three superstars. The other coaches mentioned have better depth at their disposal for sure, so they could beat Monty head to head without providing any indication which coach was better.
If you can't see improvement in several phases of the coaching game this year over last, then you have blinders on where Monty is concerned. It would be stupid to fire Monty unless AD requests a specific (and available) replacement. If that ever occurs, I hope it is behind the scenes.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

What the man above me said.

The Monty train has pulled into the station of its final destination. We have gone as far as we can with him, and that's as far as we will go. We all learned something in the process. We learned that Monty could develop talent (like a Doug Collins), but not get you much further than where he can get you with a maxed out roster of Cp3, DX, Ariza, Jack roster. He will land on his feet in another place coaching up talent, but he isn't the guy that will take you to that next level.

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So,playing a tougher schedule than Dallas,Phoenix,Houston,Clippers & Memphis>>> While beating San Antonio 2x (once in S.A.), beating Houston, in Houston, beating OKC 2x (once in OKC), Beating LeBron & being 4 games out of the 5TH playoff position (still having to play all of the east cellar dwellers 2x) you have concluded that Monty has reached his pinnacle ! HUH ! How about this ! We are young, we throw in some clunkers but are maturing ! Capable of beating anybody physically but mental growing pains cause lapses ! We will improve as the year goes on (especially if EG10 comes back healthy) ! Cunningham is a HUGE pick-up ! 1 game out of playoff contention behind Phoenix and S.A. & thats a negative ????? WOW ! As long as we have BLACK ICE manning the ship on the post, & injuries stay away, this team will mature as the year goes on>> as San Antonio will get OLDER as the year goes on ! This team will find itself in the playoff hunt through game 82 ! MOCK ASIK if you will, but his presence has allowed BLACK ICE to EXPLODE onto the scene ! His #'s wouldnt be close if STIEMSMA was manning the middle !:cool:

Who is Black Ice?

Nobody is saying Monty is a bad coach. I am saying he has taken us as far as he can. He has the potential to be the new Doug Collins. What we need now (since we have the new Jordan) is the new Phil.

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Originally Posted by iNolaNightmare

First time we ever beat the Spurs twice in a row in Pels history. I guess that's disclosing the playoffs(?) I can't remember.

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Yes, NolaNight. That stat is a bit misleading because we beat the Spurs consecutively in Game 1 & 2 in the Western Conf. Semis in '08.

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Originally Posted by NOEngineer

Of that list, only Popovich and Rivers have won a title, both with very deep teams with a minimum of three superstars.

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For accuracy purposes, remember Rick Carlisle won a championship with Dallas in 2011.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Nobody is saying Monty is a bad coach. I am saying he has taken us as far as he can. He has the potential to be the new Doug Collins. What we need now (since we have the new Jordan) is the new Phil.

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I don't admonish you for having that opinion at all. You may be right. But for perspective on that view I'll reference Mac's stance. He wasn't the biggest Monty fan either but was never really on the fire Monty train because honestly, who out there is a sure fire upgrade that also doesn't have current coaching employment? And before anyone says George Karl, you have to acknowledge his old age and health issues and the risk involved there. Other than that and perhaps prying some happy college coaches, you'd either have to commit to a retread that has failed somewhere before or yet another unknown quantity with no coaching experience.

A Phil type would be awesome, but coaches like that don't just grow on trees.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Nobody is saying Monty is a bad coach. I am saying he has taken us as far as he can. He has the potential to be the new Doug Collins. What we need now (since we have the new Jordan) is the new Phil.

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Oh! Is that all? Simply asking for one of the 5 best coaches ever? Well then, if that's all it is going to take to make you happy let's blow it up and start searching.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Who is Black Ice?

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Luke Babbitt ! DUH

We don't need an established top 5 coach, but you do need to move on from Monty.

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Originally Posted by NOEngineer

I have never seen any evidence that any of the listed coaches other than Popovich can outcoach each other reliably, let alone in a 7-game series. Of that list, only Popovich and Rivers have won a title, both with very deep teams with a minimum of three superstars. The other coaches mentioned have better depth at their disposal for sure, so they could beat Monty head to head without providing any indication which coach was better.
If you can't see improvement in several phases of the coaching game this year over last, then you have blinders on where Monty is concerned. It would be stupid to fire Monty unless AD requests a specific (and available) replacement. If that ever occurs, I hope it is behind the scenes.

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I will note you didn't answer any of the core questions in my post and clearly didn't read everything I wrote. Other then that, you go to prove my point, you aren't making any sort of verifiable case for Monty's coaching abilities. Instead you are attempting to assert it as a fact through one-sided arguments trying to drag down his competition(which says something in and of itself that your argument tries to drag down others skills instead of arguing up Monty's skills). Then trying to claim that he has shown marked improvement(without ever listing and qualifying just what that improvement is) or providing how that improvement elevates him to the level of a longterm answer at coach or why this improvement that you failed to list indicates he will be elite in the future. The things I listed in the common critiques are still very real problems and the improvements I have seen aren't nullifying those things.

As for AD, player morale is important. But it isn't the be all end all. If we subscribed to your way of running an organization through the desires of the star player, then GS would still be employing Mark Jackson, LAL would have fired Phil Jackson during the numerous kobe/phil eruptions and Spoelstra would have been dumped after the Mavs loss. Players are a factor, but they tend to make decisions based more on emotion and not logic. Chris Paul loved Monty Williams, that wasn't enough to keep him here now was it? The fact is that for true superstar competitors they want to win.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

We don't need an established top 5 coach, but you do need to move on from Monty.

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I'm always in tune with your opinions bro, but this one. A coaching change at this juncture isn't going to yield some magic result.
He, whatever anyone says, brought AD along with care and class and they remain tight. Coach K can't be choosing bums for his assistants huh? I feel the sentiment, but we have improved. As long as that is the case, I say stay with him

I wouldn't fire him mid season unless his name was PJ Carlisimo. Fire him at the end of the year, and go hunting for the next Phil.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

I think you are getting confused. I actually can't think of anyone on this board who said they want Monty as the head coach. As in, if George Karl and Monty had a public vote for coach, people on this board wouldn't be jumping at Monty. This thread is obviously targeting the highly emotional posts that bring no constructive feedback. People need to differentiate between haters, and people who criticize valid points. To be fair, on the other end of the spectrum, I can't think of any posters who blatantly ignore all criticism of Monty and blindly say he is the best coach. Can anyone name anyone? Most Monty "defenders" are actually people who think players need to put their hand up for their faults, and not just blame the coach. Or find it rich when people blame Monty for things he has no control over (at a looser sense, lets not get pedantic and say a coach can directly influence everything each player does, teams have off nights).

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Then why do we have threads like this? If no one wants Monty as a coach then why are we seeing so many posts trying to preserve his honor and make the case to retain his tenure?

If no one on this board actually wants him to be the coach any longer then they are completely irrational in defending keeping him beyond the season. Making a case for a sunk cost that they know in their heart needs to be replaced for the long term good. I understand the argument of "is it players or coach?" "GM or coach?" But there are A LOT of AD likes him so lets keep him posts and Monty just needs more time/better players/more trust/is better then X, Y, Z,/I'd rather Monty over anyone else available. To me that is hard not to inference as meaning they want to retain Monty long term.

Monty will not be fired midseason, you guys just need to relax and enjoy THIS season because this is the team we have right now.

Mark Jackson is still out there...I think he'd put some much needed fire in this team

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Originally Posted by isitsunday

Mark Jackson is still out there...I think he'd put some much needed fire in this team

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Marc Jackson will still be available in June.

You all need to stop arguing ghosts. They don't exist. I mean that is the only conclusion I can come to considering that we have a couple of posters in here arguing against Monty being fired mid-season, because no one has posted that in here.

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Originally Posted by itsADstime

Marc Jackson will still be available in June.

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uhm okay? pretty sure I didn't say hire him now just making a statement lol

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

You all need to stop arguing ghosts. They don't exist. I mean that is the only conclusion I can come to considering that we have a couple of posters in here arguing against Monty being fired mid-season, because no one has posted that in here.

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Then we need to reconvene this discussion after the season when the full body of work can be judged. Heads will be much clearer by then.

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Originally Posted by itsADstime

Then we need to reconvene this discussion after the season when the full body of work can be judged. Heads will be much clearer by then.

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No we don't. Your argument is like saying a parent can't have a clear head and shouldn't acknowledge the problems or discuss the possible solutions of a child until he finishes the semester, even if he currently has C's, D's and F's in some of his classes.

When speaking about a man's livelihood i try to show a little respect.

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Originally Posted by itsADstime

When speaking about a man's livelihood i try to show a little respect.

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What? haha. Criticism and Respect are not mutually exclusive.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

You all need to stop arguing ghosts. They don't exist. I mean that is the only conclusion I can come to considering that we have a couple of posters in here arguing against Monty being fired mid-season, because no one has posted that in here.

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No one is arguing because it's a tiring argument. After every game people make all kinds of insane comments about how Monty can't coach and then people write books PROVING how his play calling directly lead to us scoring the points needed to win the game, or how him going with a big line-up late was the reason we were able to shut down the other team and win.

But you and numerous others just ignore all of this and keep spewing how Monty is a bad coach and has shown no improvement and every loss is directly on him. You don't want real answers. You just want everyone to suck each other off and hate on Monty. You and others have a clear agenda to **** on Monty ever chance you get without realistically looking at the NUMEROUS things he does well.

I'm not even the biggest Monty fan but no one can take a balanced view of him, or really any player here, and so it leaves it to me and a few others to try and bring reason to these asinine topics. But no, Don't assume just because no one has answered your questions that there are no answers. We simply don't feel the need to rehash this again for the 1000th time.

Also, might as well get it out there now and say "Cool Story Bro" too.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I will note you didn't answer any of the core questions in my post and clearly didn't read everything I wrote. .

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OK. Here are my direct answers to your post:

Yes, he can be a championship caliber coach if he has the same caliber of players as most other championship coaches were when they won their chanmpionships.

No, I don't see anyone available that would be an overall upgrade over Monty. Unavailable or unable to handle the grind: Karl, Sloan, Phil, Pops, CArlisle, Thibs, Coach K, Izzo. Not an upgrade: Van Gundies, Karl, Spoelstra, Marc JAckson, any players who haven't coached, any other college coach, any foreign coach. This is the only point which really matters, and therefore the only one I addressed.
No, he probably can't outcoach Pops or Carlisle on his first try. Nor does he have the caliber of players that a fully healthy GSW, HOU, OKC, or LAC team will have, so he probably won't beat them either. Our players might be on par with POR, MEM, and Phoenix, and I think he can hold his own against their coaches if we draw one of those teams.
So, I don't think we can significantly upgrade over Monty, so if AD is happy with him then I would stay the course. I don't care if you or other fans are happy with him, as long as the players work hard for him and we are competitive. They do, we are, and so I say quit pining for a mythical coaching upgrade.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

No one is arguing because it's a tiring argument. After every game people make all kinds of insane comments about how Monty can't coach and then people write books PROVING how his play calling directly lead to us scoring the points needed to win the game, or how him going with a big line-up late was the reason we were able to shut down the other team and win.

But you and numerous others just ignore all of this and keep spewing how Monty is a bad coach and has shown no improvement and every loss is directly on him. You don't want real answers. You just want everyone to suck each other off and hate on Monty. You and others have a clear agenda to **** on Monty ever chance you get without realistically looking at the NUMEROUS things he does well.

I'm not even the biggest Monty fan but no one can take a balanced view of him, or really any player here, and so it leaves it to me and a few others to try and bring reason to these asinine topics. But no, Don't assume just because no one has answered your questions that there are no answers. We simply don't feel the need to rehash this again for the 1000th time.

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Quoting my ghost comment is pretty apt considering you are doing that here.

This is the common attack that keeps propping up. Asserting some sort of unqualified agenda and associating all posters that can be labeled supporting some sort of position as being irrational based on the acts of a minority few. I could take all the irrational and idiotic things Monty apologists say and try and conflate them to representing your viewpoint but I don't do that? Know why? Because its a sign of intellectual dishonestly.




Now, to move on from the personal attacks.....


To simplify lets look at coaching as a sliding scale of 0-10.

The truth is no NBA coach is making 0 decisions, ever. The talent is too high.

But what separates the great coaches from the good coaches and the good coaches from the average and the average from the bad is the matter of degrees in their decision making and the cumulative effect of those decisions. Every decision a coach makes, from lineups, to playcalling, to drills in practice, to defensive system, to points of emphasis, to matchups, to player morale, has opportunity costs and alternatives.

You are making the assertion that people like me are claiming that Monty are making a bunch of 0 ranked decisions when that isn't what I or anyone else that I have read has argued. Instead what is being argued is that Monty makes a bunch of decisions that would rank as a 5 or 6, when there are clearly 7, 8 or 9 decisions available to him. Or where Monty has consistently proven to make overall 6 decisions in area X, he is trending below his peers who generally make better quality decisions in area X or have other areas that make up for falling below Mont'y area.

The argument is ultimately that Monty is an overall 5 or 6 - with no real 9's or 10's - in a league that has a lot of 8's, 9's and maybe one almost 10(Pop). That to succeed with Monty ultimately requires a talent level that can overcome his coaching inefficiencies.

So no one is arguing Monty can't call good plays. Or that he hasn't done positive things. Or that he hasn't experienced growth. Or that he hasn't had spurts of 9 or 10 level decision making in some area.

The problem is that a number of posters, you included, want to try and mis-frame the arguments being made on here to skirt addressing actual arguments. The argument is ultimately a bunch of people arguing that Monty is a 4, 5, or 6(a few probably think he is less then that, but ultimately that he is around average or slightly above or below it) and that we can't win with him in the long run. Arguing mostly with a bunch of people that either A.) Claim he is better then that(a few much better then that, SEE NoEngineer.) B.) Even if he is a 4, 5 or 6 we can win with him or C.) that he may or may not be better then that but he deserves more time.

As for the so-called need to rehash for the 1000th time, perhaps you could point me to these well delivered, well written defenses of Monty that are supposedly so abundant? Because I have seen very little from the A, B or C posters that count as a legitimate, well-constructed defense of Monty.

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Originally Posted by NOEngineer

OK. Here are my direct answers to your post:

Yes, he can be a championship caliber coach if he has the same caliber of players as most other championship coaches were when they won their chanmpionships.

No, I don't see anyone available that would be an overall upgrade over Monty. Unavailable or unable to handle the grind: Karl, Sloan, Phil, Pops, CArlisle, Thibs, Coach K, Izzo. Not an upgrade: Van Gundies, Karl, Spoelstra, Marc JAckson, any players who haven't coached, any other college coach, any foreign coach. This is the only point which really matters, and therefore the only one I addressed.
No, he probably can't outcoach Pops or Carlisle on his first try. Nor does he have the caliber of players that a fully healthy GSW, HOU, OKC, or LAC team will have, so he probably won't beat them either. Our players might be on par with POR, MEM, and Phoenix, and I think he can hold his own against their coaches if we draw one of those teams.
So, I don't think we can significantly upgrade over Monty, so if AD is happy with him then I would stay the course. I don't care if you or other fans are happy with him, as long as the players work hard for him and we are competitive. They do, we are, and so I say quit pining for a mythical coaching upgrade.

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Can you substantiate this with more then assertions and hunches?

That is the meat of what I am asking for. A compelling argument in defense of retaining Monty.

I go around these threads and around the web and hear a lot of specific examples of Monty's failures in coaching - many not warranted or are overstated - but some have value. And none have given a strong case that Monty is a championship caliber coach. So the onus is on you to prove your case. Your are making the thesis statement that he can outcoach most in the league and is a championship caliber coach. Now is the time you provide your body paragraphs and give us the supporting evidence.

Bronco what the hell.

First of all, recognize the context of his claim. His claim is basically that most championship coaches have high caliber rosters to go along with whatever coaching abilities they may have. Despite whatever pros and cons MW may have, he's good ENOUGH to get a great roster there, so he says. That's just his opinion...there may be nothing specific and deep behind it. You're strawmanning the premise of his claim by making him construct a 15 point thesis of Month's coaching pros when he clearly is of the stance that talent has more weight than coaching.

Secondly, you are the pot calling the kettle black with your "GIVE ME DETAILS NOT GENERALITIES!!" schtick. All your claim is that Monty has bad rotations (how?), loses close games (what coach doesn't? And in such cases who's to say that the coach is the sole blame?), doesn't adjust well (your opinion, and honestly can't be quantified either way), etc.

Thirdly, as other posters have already stated, none of the "Monty defenders" claim that he is the greatest coach ever. They're all basically of the stance of be reasonable, balanced, patient, and consider the big picture and likely consider MW to at least be an average coach who has decent knowledge of the game but flaws. You're constructing your own narrative to suit your point better. We're not claiming to be smarter than an NBA coach and micro-analyzing each coaching decision as blatantly cut and dry dumb or smart. You're the one with all these sharp hot takes that Monty isn't good enough for us, so it should be on YOU the prosecutor here to back yourself up.

By the way, you don't have to do that last part. It was more hypothetical than anything. I also don't care that much to argue. Like I told UNO, if you don't think MW is the right coach, that's cool. You might be right, maybe he's not. Some of us are in evaluate, wait and see, and be fair mode, while I guess your mind is made up.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Quoting my ghost comment is pretty apt considering you are doing that here.

This is the common attack that keeps propping up. Asserting some sort of unqualified agenda and associating all posters that can be labeled supporting some sort of position as being irrational based on the acts of a minority few. I could take all the irrational and idiotic things Monty apologists say and try and conflate them to representing your viewpoint but I don't do that? Know why? Because its a sign of intellectual dishonestly.




Now, to move on from the personal attacks.....


To simplify lets look at coaching as a sliding scale of 0-10.

The truth is no NBA coach is making 0 decisions, ever. The talent is too high.

But what separates the great coaches from the good coaches and the good coaches from the average and the average from the bad is the matter of degrees in their decision making and the cumulative effect of those decisions. Every decision a coach makes, from lineups, to playcalling, to drills in practice, to defensive system, to points of emphasis, to matchups, to player morale, has opportunity costs and alternatives.

You are making the assertion that people like me are claiming that Monty are making a bunch of 0 ranked decisions when that isn't what I or anyone else that I have read has argued. Instead what is being argued is that Monty makes a bunch of decisions that would rank as a 5 or 6, when there are clearly 7, 8 or 9 decisions available to him. Or where Monty has consistently proven to make overall 6 decisions in area X, he is trending below his peers who generally make better quality decisions in area X or have other areas that make up for falling below Mont'y area.

The argument is ultimately that Monty is an overall 5 or 6 - with no real 9's or 10's - in a league that has a lot of 8's, 9's and maybe one almost 10(Pop). That to succeed with Monty ultimately requires a talent level that can overcome his coaching inefficiencies.

So no one is arguing Monty can't call good plays. Or that he hasn't done positive things. Or that he hasn't experienced growth. Or that he hasn't had spurts of 9 or 10 level decision making in some area.

The problem is that a number of posters, you included, want to try and mis-frame the arguments being made on here to skirt addressing actual arguments. The argument is ultimately a bunch of people arguing that Monty is a 4, 5, or 6(a few probably think he is less then that, but ultimately that he is around average or slightly above or below it) and that we can't win with him in the long run. Arguing mostly with a bunch of people that either A.) Claim he is better then that(a few much better then that, SEE NoEngineer.) B.) Even if he is a 4, 5 or 6 we can win with him or C.) that he may or may not be better then that but he deserves more time.

As for the so-called need to rehash for the 1000th time, perhaps you could point me to these well delivered, well written defenses of Monty that are supposedly so abundant? Because I have seen very little from the A, B or C posters that count as a legitimate, well-constructed defense of Monty.

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Cool story bro.