Working on his Jumper Should NOT be Tyreke's top priority

I know people often say that this is what Tyreke needs to concentrate on first and foremost this summer, but I disagree. Yes, it would be nice if that got better, but I think other things should be addressed first. Here's why:

http://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/20...his-jump-shot/

We need an elite rim scorer, while jrue and eric were supposed to be able to get to the rim, we clearly need someone that can have a shot at dunking around the Lebron's of the league. We have plenty of jump shooters and 3 pointers...

I agree that Reke needs to make more around the rim (I've said that a few times in threads), but him having a better jumpshot would not only help HIS shooting %, it'll open up so much more for the offense.

Sure, making a few more of those layups will help, but if you give Reke a consistent mid-range jumper, then defenders won't be able to sag off of him and sit in the paint (fringe of the paint, but still...).

Same with Austin. We all know he could stand to make a few more of those layups, but if he gets a jumper, then he's unguardable.

If Tyreke could be as consistent making his layups as he has been the last 2 games, then I can't friggin wait to see him with a full cast of healthy teammates to stretch the floor next season.

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Originally Posted by DroopyDawg

I agree that Reke needs to make more around the rim (I've said that a few times in threads), but him having a better jumpshot would not only help HIS shooting %, it'll open up so much more for the offense.

Sure, making a few more of those layups will help, but if you give Reke a consistent mid-range jumper, then defenders won't be able to sag off of him and sit in the paint (fringe of the paint, but still...).

Same with Austin. We all know he could stand to make a few more of those layups, but if he gets a jumper, then he's unguardable.

If Tyreke could be as consistent making his layups as he has been the last 2 games, then I can't friggin wait to see him with a full cast of healthy teammates to stretch the floor next season.

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Again, this is the conventional wisdom argument that people often say just because it seems to make sense, but often times the numbers dont support it. Instead, guys fall in love with the jumper and dont attack as much and that isnt good for anyone.

Read the article, look at the numbers and tell me if you still have this belief.

I always appreciate your perspective on things Mike. It was a good article, and I think it's a sound theory. Actually, I think he should do away with the mid-range jumper and work more on his 3-point shooting like Rivers did. If Reke can hit 37% or more in catch-and-shoot situations, that's more than enough. It allows Jrue to handle the ball more, so Reke doesn't have to waste all of his energy. It also spaces the floor, because right now he is in Aminu territory.

I opened this thread expecting to write a rebuttal but decided to actually read the article first.

Now I don't really have a rebuttal because I agree with everything you wrote. :bah:

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Originally Posted by SeaLegs

I opened this thread expecting to write a rebuttal but decided to actually read the article first.

Now I don't really have a rebuttal because I agree with everything you wrote. :bah:

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I love that you admit it. I got so any rebuttals today and it was clear people didn't read it. Thanks for reading, glad you enjoyed it. Or I think you did, but your emoticon looks mad!

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I know people often say that this is what Tyreke needs to concentrate on first and foremost this summer, but I disagree. Yes, it would be nice if that got better, but I think other things should be addressed first. Here's why:

http://www.bourbonstreetshots.com/20...his-jump-shot/

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I see your point and you know far more about it than I but, it seems by the examples you showed that it's more a matter of those players falling in love with their new TOY and forgetting what they did best . It seems that if he did improve the mid game defenders would have to respect that and opening up he drives. The trick is making sure he does not fall in love with the new toy and that would be on Monty . Just a thought

I'm pretty much on board with this article. I will say that Gerry V had some good insight as well in the comment section

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Originally Posted by djrnno

I see your point and you know far more about it than I but, it seems by the examples you showed that it's more a matter of those players falling in love with their new TOY and forgetting what they did best . It seems that if he did improve the mid game defenders would have to respect that and opening up he drives. The trick is making sure he does not fall in love with the new toy and that would be on Monty . Just a thought

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Agree. They don't HAVE to use it, but they do tend to.

And again, I am not saying that he should NEVER improve it, just that he should focus on the other things more. That is the part that I think some people fail to read


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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I love that you admit it. I got so any rebuttals today and it was clear people didn't read it. Thanks for reading, glad you enjoyed it. Or I think you did, but your emoticon looks mad!

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:hihi:
Mad because I couldn't use the scathing rebuttal that I had prepared! Very much enjoyed the article though, as always. Keep 'em coming!

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Originally Posted by SeaLegs

:hihi:
Mad because I couldn't use the scathing rebuttal that I had prepared! Very much enjoyed the article though, as always. Keep 'em coming!

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Got a few other pieces coming out I am super excited about. Looking forward to them and the convos we start


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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

I always appreciate your perspective on things Mike. It was a good article, and I think it's a sound theory. Actually, I think he should do away with the mid-range jumper and work more on his 3-point shooting like Rivers did. If Reke can hit 37% or more in catch-and-shoot situations, that's more than enough. It allows Jrue to handle the ball more, so Reke doesn't have to waste all of his energy. It also spaces the floor, because right now he is in Aminu territory.

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This is about where I stand too. Focus on improving skills at the rim first and foremost, but also work on being effective without the ball, too (like the spot-up 3pt shooting).

Evans should only ever take a mid-range shot if everyone else is covered and there is no room for him to drive into the paint. Or in desperation situations. Those are probably one and the same. If he only ever becomes below average at 6-12 foot shots, I will be happy.

The only reason I disagree with this article is because Tyreke already is a great finisher. Last year he shot 64% from 0-3ft. The year before he shot 65%. The year before that he was 62%. This year was an anomaly for him he shot 54%. He has averaged 60% for his career w/ this year counted. I think the issue was a new team and learning the system/players. He has shown already that he can do it. And I believe more than him working on this summer he needs to get comfortable here.

So because of this I think he needs to 100% work on his jumper. He's already shown he can do both. Last year he shot 64% from 0-3ft and 34% from 3pt. But unlike his finishing at the rim his jumper has been streaky throughout his career.

And my argument is backed up because it was announced earlier in the season and Rivers and Tyreke were going to stay in NO this off-season specifically to work on their jumper together. So Tyreke and the coaching staff have addressed this and realize the best course for him.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

The only reason I disagree with this article is because Tyreke already is a great finisher. Last year he shot 64% from 0-3ft. The year before he shot 65%. The year before that he was 62%. This year was an anomaly for him he shot 54%. He has averaged 60% for his career w/ this year counted. I think the issue was a new team and learning the system/players. He has shown already that he can do it. And I believe more than him working on this summer he needs to get comfortable here.

So because of this I think he needs to 100% work on his jumper. He's already shown he can do both. Last year he shot 64% from 0-3ft and 34% from 3pt. But unlike his finishing at the rim his jumper has been streaky throughout his career.

And my argument is backed up because it was announced earlier in the season and Rivers and Tyreke were going to stay in NO this off-season specifically to work on their jumper together. So Tyreke and the coaching staff have addressed this and realize the best course for him.

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But based on that logic, I can say he is already a solid shooter because he shot 34% from three and on his midrange last year (shot 22 and 25 percent this year)

I cant take a whole season as an abberation and even eye test, we all saw him miss some easy looks this year or take some crazy junk. He has to improve there, and if you look at the post up numbers in the article, I dont think you can argue improvement is needed there.

And your final argument, that X is what he WILL do is not an argument for what he OUGHT to do. This is the conventional wisdom; something I would have believed before digging into the numbers. But conventional wisdom is not always right.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

But based on that logic, I can say he is already a solid shooter because he shot 34% from three and on his midrange last year (shot 22 and 25 percent this year)

I cant take a whole season as an abberation and even eye test, we all saw him miss some easy looks this year or take some crazy junk. He has to improve there, and if you look at the post up numbers in the article, I dont think you can argue improvement is needed there.

And your final argument, that X is what he WILL do is not an argument for what he OUGHT to do. This is the conventional wisdom; something I would have believed before digging into the numbers. But conventional wisdom is not always right.

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No. Look at his career averages. 60% from 0-3ft. From there out he's shot 33%, 33%, 32%, 27%. I wonder which he should work on?

The bigger problem I think is you are basing your entire argument off of a career low season and saying, "this is what he needs to work on." But he's already really good in that area. Every other season has shown this. We have 4 years of data to back this up. We also have 4 previous years of data showing he's been poor shooting from 3ft out. If I'm looking at Tyreke and I'm trying to figure out where he has the most room to improve, it's in his jumper.

You also didn't address the fact that he took a career high % of attempts from 0-3. He took 57% of his shots at the rim. That's 11% higher than his career average and 6% higher than his next closest season, which was his rookie year. When you look at these %s they match up with his least productive seasons for FG% around the rim. This to me looks like he drove and took so many shots around the rim that the quality went down. But the problem is understanding why. Was it because we were an injury ridden team that Tyreke felt he had to produce for? I think that's likely.

Personally, with the type of season we had it's very hard to evaluate what is best for Tyreke. But gun to my head, I think you have to assume 4 years of data isn't wrong and he's better off focusing on his jumper this offseason. I think you have to assume his FG% around the rim will go back toward his career average. Whereas even if his jumper is a career average, it's still bad and needs to improve.

The post up is whatever. Sure he can work on that.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

No. Look at his career averages. 60% from 0-3ft. From there out he's shot 33%, 33%, 32%, 27%. I wonder which he should work on?

The bigger problem I think is you are basing your entire argument off of a career low season and saying, "this is what he needs to work on." But he's already really good in that area. Every other season has shown this. We have 4 years of data to back this up. We also have 4 previous years of data showing he's been poor shooting from 3ft out. If I'm looking at Tyreke and I'm trying to figure out where he has the most room to improve, it's in his jumper.

You also didn't address the fact that he took a career high % of attempts from 0-3. He took 57% of his shots at the rim. That's 11% higher than his career average and 6% higher than his next closest season, which was his rookie year. When you look at these %s they match up with his least productive seasons for FG% around the rim. This to me looks like he drove and took so many shots around the rim that the quality went down. But the problem is understanding why. Was it because we were an injury ridden team that Tyreke felt he had to produce for? I think that's likely.

Personally, with the type of season we had it's very hard to evaluate what is best for Tyreke. But gun to my head, I think you have to assume 4 years of data isn't wrong and he's better off focusing on his jumper this offseason. I think you have to assume his FG% around the rim will go back toward his career average. Whereas even if his jumper is a career average, it's still bad and needs to improve.

The post up is whatever. Sure he can work on that.

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And Lebron is shooting 70% around the rim this year, so even if he returns to his avg, can he not improve even more?

Again, I am not saying to ignore the jumper. But if, out of 10 shots, you take 6 from A, 2 from B, 1 from C, and 1 from D - why wouldn't you become the best you possibly could be at A?

You ask a guy to work on his jumper for months and then still tell him to just use it when absolutely necessary; I dont see that being possible. You will want to show off all that hard work. And he will never, ever be nearly as efficient from there. Ever.

So, I wouldnt make it a huge priority, partly for that reason. I just don't believe you can improve that list without the unintended consequence of having him take it more, like Ewing and Rondo and countless others.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

But based on that logic, I can say he is already a solid shooter because he shot 34% from three and on his midrange last year (shot 22 and 25 percent this year)

I cant take a whole season as an abberation and even eye test, we all saw him miss some easy looks this year or take some crazy junk. He has to improve there, and if you look at the post up numbers in the article, I dont think you can argue improvement is needed there.

And your final argument, that X is what he WILL do is not an argument for what he OUGHT to do. This is the conventional wisdom; something I would have believed before digging into the numbers. But conventional wisdom is not always right.

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I think variables like learning a new system, playing with new teammates and injuries need to be recognised to gain some context, before you can slot this seasons stats in next to the others and form a critical analysis.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

And Lebron is shooting 70% around the rim this year, so even if he returns to his avg, can he not improve even more?

Again, I am not saying to ignore the jumper. But if, out of 10 shots, you take 6 from A, 2 from B, 1 from C, and 1 from D - why wouldn't you become the best you possibly could be at A?

You ask a guy to work on his jumper for months and then still tell him to just use it when absolutely necessary; I dont see that being possible. You will want to show off all that hard work. And he will never, ever be nearly as efficient from there. Ever.

So, I wouldnt make it a huge priority, partly for that reason. I just don't believe you can improve that list without the unintended consequence of having him take it more, like Ewing and Rondo and countless others.

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This argument doesn't hold up because Reke has shown the more he relies on one shot the less efficient he is from there. When he was taking more shots away from the rim his % around the rim ROSE. This has held steady his entire career. Therefor, if you want to make him better around the rim, work on his jumper so he can take and make it, allowing him to get to the rim easier.

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Originally Posted by Perth_Hornet

I think variables like learning a new system, playing with new teammates and injuries need to be recognised to gain some context, before you can slot this seasons stats in next to the others and form a critical analysis.

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All I ever hear is "Tyreke should work on his jumper." It bores me when everyone has the same opinion and it really isnt based on anything but repeating what others say or some very simple logic. I wanted to jump in and explore for myself. I do agree his jumper needs to get better, but people have to realize the unintended consequences of that, because there usually is some.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

This argument doesn't hold up because Reke has shown the more he relies on one shot the less efficient he is from there. When he was taking more shots away from the rim his % around the rim ROSE. This has held steady his entire career. Therefor, if you want to make him better around the rim, work on his jumper so he can take and make it, allowing him to get to the rim easier.

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It does? Wasn't he like 1-7 in that 41 point game? I mean, he can take more just to take them and miss more. He can do that now. But I can't imagine that if he went to the hole those 7 times, he would have scored less.

My theory is that his rim% will rise when he has shooters on the floor - as it did this year. He had no illusiion of a jumper and somehow he did great. Just get the Steamer off the floor!!!!

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

It does? Wasn't he like 1-7 in that 41 point game? I mean, he can take more just to take them and miss more. He can do that now. But I can't imagine that if he went to the hole those 7 times, he would have scored less.

My theory is that his rim% will rise when he has shooters on the floor - as it did this year. He had no illusiion of a jumper and somehow he did great. Just get the Steamer off the floor!!!!

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That's the easy part :p

I like the article but I think you should probably mention that Rondo played 30 games this year coming off a major injury to return mid season. That could easily affect his shooting/play style as much as if not more than "falling in love with his jumper."

and I agree that Reke could be more efficient at the rim, but I think the easiest way he does this is to pick his spots better and not force it to the rim all the time, I think this is where his "struggles" at the rim come from, not his ability to finish there. If he had a consistent jumper from somewhere on the court at all as a fall back instead of trying to finish through 4 people it would make his game more efficient. I don't think this falling in love with the jumper thing would happen to tyreke, he has said many times that he just feels that he can always beat the guy in front of him that is how he plays. We know he is a great finisher at the rim, we watch him do it all the time, I think the way he gets more efficient at it is not being so predictable/forcing it, and having an improved jumper would very much help that.

When we got him people were talking about him having his most efficient season with the kings was last year when he shot a career best 47.8% and that just so happened to coincide with his career best 3pt shooting %(33.8) and him shooting a career low 11.8 shots a game. He became more efficient by picking his spots I think.

But I am definitely still on the side of him working on his jumper

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Originally Posted by jgman

I like the article but I think you should probably mention that Rondo played 30 games this year coming off a major injury to return mid season. That could easily affect his shooting/play style as much as if not more than "falling in love with his jumper."

and I agree that Reke could be more efficient at the rim, but I think the easiest way he does this is to pick his spots better and not force it to the rim all the time, I think this is where his "struggles" at the rim come from, not his ability to finish there. If he had a consistent jumper from somewhere on the court at all as a fall back instead of trying to finish through 4 people it would make his game more efficient. I don't think this falling in love with the jumper thing would happen to tyreke, he has said many times that he just feels that he can always beat the guy in front of him that is how he plays. We know he is a great finisher at the rim, we watch him do it all the time, I think the way he gets more efficient at it is not being so predictable/forcing it, and having an improved jumper would very much help that.

When we got him people were talking about him having his most efficient season with the kings was last year when he shot a career best 47.8% and that just so happened to coincide with his career best 3pt shooting %(33.8) and him shooting a career low 11.8 shots a game. He became more efficient by picking his spots I think.

But I am definitely still on the side of him working on his jumper

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His non 3pt range in 2k14 is off the charts.

You are who you are. I agree that Tyreke should focus on what he is great at doing.

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Originally Posted by Perth_Hornet

His non 3pt range in 2k14 is off the charts.

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haha well he is a great finisher! he was clearly not used in the right role for a lot of the season with bad line ups around him, we all know this, plus the whole bench role with 25mins a night clearly threw him off. Once in the starting role this year, he shot 51% in march and 47.6% in April! He should obviously work to continue to get better at it(finishing at the rim) but in no way should it be his top priority this offseason

When he went off and scored 41 in his career game against OKC Tyreke missed 6 of 7 from beyond 13 ft and 5 of 6 from beyond 24 ft. This means he made 13 of 19 from close range and 12 of 16 free throw attempts. If he can make 69% of his close range shots and only 14 % of his mid-range and long range shots why should he even take those? Plus going to the line is a good thing if you can hit 75%. Add 9 Rebounds, 8 assist and 3 steals which arguably could have been better and this is his blueprint. Starting & with a better lineup plus an unselfish PG in Jrue I think Tyreke's value is in owning who he is. So definitely agree with article.

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Originally Posted by DRDJ1

You are who you are. I agree that Tyreke should focus on what he is great at doing.

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With a healthy squad his bread and butter will be getting to the rim to either score or dish.

He won't need to be parked at the 3 point line for any good reason.

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Originally Posted by jgman

haha well he is a great finisher! he was clearly not used in the right role for a lot of the season with bad line ups around him, we all know this, plus the whole bench role with 25mins a night clearly threw him off. Once in the starting role this year, he shot 51% in march and 47.6% in April! He should obviously work to continue to get better at it(finishing at the rim) but in no way should it be his top priority this offseason

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How about the low post? What scares the opposition more - Tyreke taking one of their guards down there or an average jumper?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

How about the low post? What scares the opposition more - Tyreke taking one of their guards down there or an average jumper?

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well clearly yea he is better in the low post. But I am just saying he is going to work on more than one thing this offseason, he won't work solely on the post or jumper, but he should focus on where he has the most realistic room for improvement. I think the times he does shoot, because he will eventually have to shoot the ball or will get wide open outside shots, it would benefit our team tremendously, especially in the post season, if he was to hit a shot more than 20-30% of the time. I like your point that 5% increase at the rim would be much more beneficial than 5% outside, but being a 60% career finisher from 0-3ft he is only going to 5% better maybe, there is much more room for improvement in other areas. I don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that he can shoot much closer to league average from 3 or midrange, might take more than one offseason but still.

As long as he comes back nest season close to the form he finished the season in and far away from the form he started this season in I'll be happy, he is already a great player to have

When he went off for 41 points in his career game against OKC he shot 1 of 7 from beyond 13 feet and 1 of 6 from beyond 24 feet. He always seems to be leaning away when he takes a jump shot even when not contested. He shot almost 69% from close range on 13 of 19 shots and hit 75 % of 16 free throw shots. Not to mention 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 3 steals with only one turnover. He accomplished this without any other starters in the lineup. He only made 3 points on 7 shots from mid range and long range but scored 38 points on close range and free throw shots. This is Tyreke's blueprint for success. Putting him in as a starter with an unselfish Jrue feeding assists and vice-versa is his ticket to success.

yes to this

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Originally Posted by DRDJ1

When he went off for 41 points in his career game against OKC he shot 1 of 7 from beyond 13 feet and 1 of 6 from beyond 24 feet. He always seems to be leaning away when he takes a jump shot even when not contested. He shot almost 69% from close range on 13 of 19 shots and hit 75 % of 16 free throw shots. Not to mention 9 rebounds, 8 assists and 3 steals with only one turnover. He accomplished this without any other starters in the lineup. He only made 3 points on 7 shots from mid range and long range but scored 38 points on close range and free throw shots. This is Tyreke's blueprint for success. Putting him in as a starter with an unselfish Jrue feeding assists and vice-versa is his ticket to success.

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If you read my articles or listen to the podcast, you probably know that I think that ‘a bigger Rajon Rondo’ is the best player comparison for Tyreke. They are two guys who can get into the paint at will, rebound well for guards, are terrors in the open court, and can get their teammates easy looks. For years, people said that Rondo needed only a better jump shot to make himself an elite guard. But guess what happened? He improved that shot and has now started to fall in love with it and because of that we just witnessed the least efficient season of his career.
Coming into this season, Rondo’s three-point rate was under 6 percent. This season, it is at nearly 26 percent! At his peak, he was taking nearly 56% of his shots within three feet of the basket. This season, just 32.6% of his shots are from within three feet. And it’s no surprise that with more threes and less shots at the rim, his free throw rate has plummeted as well – from as high as 41% his rookie year to just 19% this year.

While I agree with Rondo comparisons, using this season with almost an entire new cast of players around him while coming off injury and pretending that isnt the reason for his drop in efficiency and instead is him falling in love with his jumper really is off the mark. Big time.

Rondo falling in love with his jumper is not at all the only or main reason for a drop in efficiency and I question you for not noting that. Thats actually an embarrassing mistake for someone who writes for ESPN. This is what happens when people fall in love with stats instead of watching & understanding what is actually happening with a team or player.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

It does? Wasn't he like 1-7 in that 41 point game? I mean, he can take more just to take them and miss more. He can do that now. But I can't imagine that if he went to the hole those 7 times, he would have scored less.

My theory is that his rim% will rise when he has shooters on the floor - as it did this year. He had no illusiion of a jumper and somehow he did great. Just get the Steamer off the floor!!!!

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One game is meaningless compared to 5 years of data. The data clearly shows the seasons he took his most shots at the rim the lower his FG % from around the rim was.

I think him missing those jumpers are the exact reason he should work on them. He's never going to take 100% of his shots at the rim. And I don't think it's realistic for him to spend the majority of his summer working on a skill he's already over 60% for his career. If he could have made 3 or 4 of those 7 that would have made his job a ton easier driving.

I do agree that shooters will help his game out. But when I'm imagining this summer and I'm thinking if doing 2000 layups or 2000 jumpers will help his game out more, it's the jumpers more than the layups that I want him doing.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

All I ever hear is "Tyreke should work on his jumper." It bores me when everyone has the same opinion and it really isnt based on anything but repeating what others say or some very simple logic. I wanted to jump in and explore for myself. I do agree his jumper needs to get better, but people have to realize the unintended consequences of that, because there usually is some.

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Fans in Sac said more than that and they've watched far more of Reke than most here. He's already excellent at the rim and numbers would have been better this year if he didnt miss part of training camp and wasn't battling ankle issues early on. He missed a lot of shots at the rim he'd make his first 3 years.

What Reke needs is a mid range game. In the playoffs when the defense tightens up and teams have some of the better shotblockers and his avenue to the rim gets cut off, he needs runners, flip shots, a little stop and pop jumper like Westbrook has. You compare Reke to Rondo which I agree with but I'd compare him more to Wade, just a less athletic version. Wade added the midrange game and flip shots, so did Tony Parker. Derrick Rose had that too before his injuries. You need something when your path to the rim gets cut off. Wade still is terrible shooting 3's but his mid range game did help him out a lot.

I'd also say, if Reke plays PG next year, then a mid range game is more important to add as he'll be attacking from the top either in iso's or P&R's and will be getting into the lane, hopefully with shooters spreading the floor around him. But if he plays SG and Jrue is back, he'll be attacking more from the wing where a 3pt shot and ability to hit a jumper is more important and spacers/shooters spreading the floor don't have as much of a benefit from those spots. Yes PG/SG are just labels but in Monty's offense he generally has one single ball handler most of the time. Just look at how much time Reke spent watching Roberts running in circles up top and if Monty doesn't force Roberts to give Reke the ball, Jrue ant giving it up. It's not nearly split 50/50 and even then Reke needs to handle the ball more than any other guard he's out there with IF the goal is to play to his strengths. Cant go comparing him to Rondo while also wanting him playing SG and handling less than 50% of the time which is what you've done over the past month or two. If you think he's something like Rondo, you gotta give him the ball like Rondo up top and let him keep attacking. But we've seen many times he doesn't get much a chance to attack until Roberts is resting on the bench or Rivers shows he isn't having that good of a game.

Oh, the one thing Reke does need to improve on at the rim which he hasn't and you missed is his left hand.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

My theory is that his rim% will rise when he has shooters on the floor - as it did this year. He had no illusiion of a jumper and somehow he did great. Just get the Steamer off the floor!!!!

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My theory is that his ankle trouble kept him from elevating for much of the year, and hurt his finishing percentage. I hope he get those ankles right for the start of next year. I would not be surprised to hear about a minor surgery soon, although I hope he does not need it.

I am also glad to be rid of Stiemsma, and hope we get somebody that is an awesome rebounder to take his spot.

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Originally Posted by NOEngineer

My theory is that his ankle trouble kept him from elevating for much of the year, and hurt his finishing percentage. I hope he get those ankles right for the start of next year. I would not be surprised to hear about a minor surgery soon, although I hope he does not need it.

I am also glad to be rid of Stiemsma, and hope we get somebody that is an awesome rebounder to take his spot.

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Interesting. Maybe that's it. He did only have 5 dunks this year compared to in the teens or more every other year. But, I've noticed that with every other player that's not a PF/C, they just don't dunk here. Austin Rivers won a HS dunk contest. He has mix tapes with him doing 360 dunks, and he only dunked 7 times this year - that's less than what Manu at 36 did this year. So maybe Monty coaches them to not dunk to save energy or something.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

One game is meaningless compared to 5 years of data. The data clearly shows the seasons he took his most shots at the rim the lower his FG % from around the rim was.

I think him missing those jumpers are the exact reason he should work on them. He's never going to take 100% of his shots at the rim. And I don't think it's realistic for him to spend the majority of his summer working on a skill he's already over 60% for his career. If he could have made 3 or 4 of those 7 that would have made his job a ton easier driving.

I do agree that shooters will help his game out. But when I'm imagining this summer and I'm thinking if doing 2000 layups or 2000 jumpers will help his game out more, it's the jumpers more than the layups that I want him doing.

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I don't want him doing 2000 layups. I want him working on his explosiveness; that will help him finish at the rim better IMO.

And if he hit "3 or 4" of those 7 three-pointers, he would be one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. That will never happen. At best, he will someday become a below avg three-point shooter. No thanks. I don't want him ever taking 7 threes in a game. He is listed as a guard, so people think he has to develop an outside shot, but I don't see it that way. I look at skill sets. We have a PF that takes 50% of his shots from deep, so that leaves room for a guard who hits the low post and dominates.

If you are an opposing coach, what scares you more - this Tyreke with an average jump shot or this Tyreke with more explosiveness and a low post game?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I don't want him doing 2000 layups. I want him working on his explosiveness; that will help him finish at the rim better IMO.

And if he hit "3 or 4" of those 7 three-pointers, he would be one of the best 3 point shooters in the league. That will never happen. At best, he will someday become a below avg three-point shooter. No thanks. I don't want him ever taking 7 threes in a game. He is listed as a guard, so people think he has to develop an outside shot, but I don't see it that way. I look at skill sets. We have a PF that takes 50% of his shots from deep, so that leaves room for a guard who hits the low post and dominates.

If you are an opposing coach, what scares you more - this Tyreke with an average jump shot or this Tyreke with more explosiveness and a low post game?

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So are you suggesting Tyreke take 100% of his shots around the rim? Because your entire argument seems to say he's so bad at jumpers that he shouldn't focus on them. But I think the exact opposite way. He's always going to take some. He NEEDS to, to be better at the rim.

You compared him to Rondo but he actually gets less efficient the more shots he takes at the rim. That's the exact opposite of Rondo according to your article. Tyreke actually fits exactly into the mold that you are trying to say he needs to not be. The seasons he took more jumpers the more he was efficient at the rim. This feeds directly into he should improve his jumper because he needs to take some. I'm sorry, I think you have an interesting idea but you just happened to miss a few stats that point to the exact opposite being the best way. Sadly, sometimes conventional wisdom IS right.

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Here is what I am saying:

People seem to say, "If his jumper is better, the lane opens up." That is just too simple for me. So, let me ask this - How good would Tyreke's jump shot have to become for defenses to actually play him different? To switch on pick and rolls or go under as opposed to just going under. I mean, if he improves by 5-8%, do we really think teams now all of a sudden play him differently? They will crowd him in isolation or switch on P&R's. Of course not So, then, how does the lane magically open up?

No, I do not want 100% of his shots at the rim. But people have to recognize the unintended consequences of his jump shot getting better. You can't make a human being work on something for hundreds of hours and then turn around and ask them to use it sparingly. That goes against our human nature - he will want to show off his hard work. I would rather him show off his hard work in the post. Again, NOWHERE in my article does it say he should never improve his jumper. Just that it should be his third priority behind 1.) Increased explosiveness 2.) Post game

I don't mind if people disagree; in fact I love it and the debate that follows. But please don't exaggerate or misread my argument and then debate that new, made up argument.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Again, this is the conventional wisdom argument that people often say just because it seems to make sense, but often times the numbers dont support it. Instead, guys fall in love with the jumper and dont attack as much and that isnt good for anyone.

Read the article, look at the numbers and tell me if you still have this belief.

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I read it... totally understand what you meant. Having more confidence in their shot, they would take more, and have their % drop. I get that.

The point of my post is that right now defenders sag off of him and bait him to take the jumper, and for the most part he still blows by them. But when defenders can sag off, then they can play off of him and help others... basically how they're playing Aminu now. Aminu's defender could care less about him making a jumper so they help elsewhere.

If Reke has a better jumper then the defender has to guard him. I don't think Reke will be the type of guy that's gonna take more jumpers... he knows his game is getting to the cup. Him having a better jumper will open up things for others was my point, because they can't play him like a scrub that can't shoot (like they're doing now).

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Originally Posted by DroopyDawg

I read it... totally understand what you meant. Having more confidence in their shot, they would take more, and have their % drop. I get that.

The point of my post is that right now defenders sag off of him and bait him to take the jumper, and for the most part he still blows by them. But when defenders can sag off, then they can play off of him and help others... basically how they're playing Aminu now. Aminu's defender could care less about him making a jumper so they help elsewhere.

If Reke has a better jumper then the defender has to guard him. I don't think Reke will be the type of guy that's gonna take more jumpers... he knows his game is getting to the cup. Him having a better jumper will open up things for others was my point, because they can't play him like a scrub that can't shoot (like they're doing now).

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I do think improving his spot up will help. But what I did see them do a lot with him off the ball at the end of this year is have him run baseline cuts and get some layups off passes from big men. Again, if he is being defended by guards and you have bigs in Ryno and AD who can shoot, there are so many ways to get him the ball near the basket.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Here is what I am saying:

People seem to say, "If his jumper is better, the lane opens up." That is just too simple for me. So, let me ask this - How good would Tyreke's jump shot have to become for defenses to actually play him different? To switch on pick and rolls or go under as opposed to just going under. I mean, if he improves by 5-8%, do we really think teams now all of a sudden play him differently? They will crowd him in isolation or switch on P&R's. Of course not So, then, how does the lane magically open up?

No, I do not want 100% of his shots at the rim. But people have to recognize the unintended consequences of his jump shot getting better. You can't make a human being work on something for hundreds of hours and then turn around and ask them to use it sparingly. That goes against our human nature - he will want to show off his hard work. I would rather him show off his hard work in the post. Again, NOWHERE in my article does it say he should never improve his jumper. Just that it should be his third priority behind 1.) Increased explosiveness 2.) Post game

I don't mind if people disagree; in fact I love it and the debate that follows. But please don't exaggerate or misread my argument and then debate that new, made up argument.

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What do you mean it is too simple for you? Yours is too complicated, you are making too many jumps as to why he shouldn't have the jumper as his first priority. He doesn't need to change the way defenses play him or how he plays, he won't try to show off his new found jumper, he isn't going to completely change how he plays because he has a slightly better shot. I want him to play the same way he is now but with a better outside shot, so the times he does take 7 3's he can make more than 1. If he improves 5-8% on the outside shots he does take, because he does take them, every single game, and teams don't change the way they defend him then great! That is a success. They straight up give him open looks now, if he could make a couple more of those shots he does take when they sag way way off of him or clog the paint too much then that is a great improvement, end of story.

Again how much more explosive is he going to get? No way should tyreke's number 1 priority be explosiveness, I just don't think you could possibly make a better argument for that than for jumper or post game. Post game sounds great, but he needs to add to his game, not focus on the one thing he already does really well. That is like saying Ryno's main priority this summer should be getting even better at 3's.

All the great players come into a new season with something added to or something improved on in their game. Jordan, Lebron, those guys came into the league able to get to the rim at will, every year they came back with more range and a better jump shot, it didn't change the way they played, it made them all time greats. Davis came in this year with a much more improved jumper, look what it did for him, he hasn't fallen in love with it or changed everything, it made him better. Ryno, from what we saw this year, added to his offensive repetoire and it didn't make him worse it made him better. I would love a post game or a jump shot, but he needs to add to his game, not work on explosiveness, thats the only thing I'm arguing, that he needs to add something(i.e. improve on something he doesn't do well). His finishing and explosiveness do not hurt our team, his lack of jump shot/post game does sometimes, especially when he starts to force up bad shots in traffic, so he should work on that first.

The "X does not hurt us" argument never sits well with me. Yes, he is very good at finishing at the rim (though several layup attempts have been blocked where dunks would have been points or free throws). I can't believe people can argue he can't get better; that he has reached his absolute max peak as a rim finisher. As I have said, the super elite guys can get up to 70, 72%. Yes, he does that at a B+ level, but why is it crazy to want to try to get that to an A? Especially if he takes so many shots there.

If I look at a guy who takes 6 shots from this spot and he is a B+ even at his best from them.
Then he takes 2 shots from that spot and is a D+ from there.

Now, I have the choice: Turn the B+ into an A or the D+ into a C, why would I change the D+?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

People seem to say, "If his jumper is better, the lane opens up." That is just too simple for me. So, let me ask this - How good would Tyreke's jump shot have to become for defenses to actually play him different?

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All I want is for him to be able to hit the shots they dare him to take. A wide open jumper SHOULD be a higher percentage play than attacking 3 guys in the paint. In general I agree with your argument of maxing out his strength before working on his weakness.

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Originally Posted by BP225

All I want is for him to be able to hit the shots they dare him to take. A wide open jumper SHOULD be a higher percentage play than attacking 3 guys in the paint. In general I agree with your argument of maxing out his strength before working on his weakness.

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Yep, I want everything to improve. I would just improve on the shot I take 600 times over the shot I take 100 times if I only got to pick one.

And a lineup of AD, Ryno, Jrue, and Morrow next to him should put an end to that whole three defender thing.

But I agree, I would love to see the jumper improve. Just want to see rim finishing and post game improve more.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Yep, I want everything to improve. I would just improve on the shot I take 600 times over the shot I take 100 times if I only got to pick one.

And a lineup of AD, Ryno, Jrue, and Morrow next to him should put an end to that whole three defender thing.

But I agree, I would love to see the jumper improve. Just want to see rim finishing and post game improve more.

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Not that I disagree with your argument, but wouldn't it be more advantageous for Reke to improve his spot up 3pt shot in order for him to be a more attractive option for Jrue / Austin dribble drives? Or would we prefer him never being put in that situation?

here's a sobering thought, regardless of what has been said, what do you think reke will be looking to improve this off season based on the news we're hearing.

I actually think an easy way to improve his explosives is for him to lose a little weight and get fitter starting out the season, not his fault this start because of the able issues, but all things equal if he can do that, I think it'll work wonders

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Originally Posted by Tin_Food

here's a sobering thought, regardless of what has been said, what do you think reke will be looking to improve this off season based on the news we're hearing.

I actually think an easy way to improve his explosives is for him to lose a little weight and get fitter starting out the season, not his fault this start because of the able issues, but all things equal if he can do that, I think it'll work wonders

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I think the jumper WILL be the primary focus. And that's fine - I am glad he will be working on something. But someday he will develop that post game, and that is where we will see a bigger leap IMO.

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Originally Posted by Tin_Food

here's a sobering thought, regardless of what has been said, what do you think reke will be looking to improve this off season based on the news we're hearing.

I actually think an easy way to improve his explosives is for him to lose a little weight and get fitter starting out the season, not his fault this start because of the able issues, but all things equal if he can do that, I think it'll work wonders

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It will. I think as the season went on he got lighter, and folks forget that he had ankle problems all season long. So did he ever really get to the point where he was "in shape" and his ankle was a non-factor? I wonder...