Vasquez sets record for turnovers in a season

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Greivis Vasquez is one of the most polarizing New Orleans Hornets on the 2012-13 roster. Vasquez has legions of fans who point to his league-leading assists numbers and the possibility of him winning the 2013 NBA Most Improved Player Award.

On the other hand, Vasquez's lack of speed has rendered Hornets' fast breaks almost nonexistent and he has struggled on defense against the NBA's better point guards. Greivis Vasquez has also had an exorbitant number of turnovers this season. In fact, on April 14, Vasquez set the Hornets' franchise record for turnovers in a single season with 247.

For a while, it looked like Greivis Vasquez would only tie this dubious turnover record for the Hornets. He was stuck on 246, in a tie with Baron Davis, for a couple of games and Vasquez even missed the previous game with an injury. It looked like he might even make it through Sunday's game without a turnover, but a late failed alley-oop attempt to Robin Lopez doomed Vasquez.

Now that Vasquez is the single-season turnover leader for New Orleans, a dose of perspective is necessary to assess the impact of this record. Much like an NFL quarterback who throws a lot of interceptions, Vasquez only holds this record because he is the Hornets' best ball handler. If New Orleans had a better option at point guard, Greivis Vasquez would never have had the opportunity to average over three turnovers per game.

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http://m.yahoo.com/w/sports/nba/team...tl=US&.lang=en

Yep...He started on my fantasy team. I lost the turnover category every week BUT i always won Assist.....:hihi:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7b32e336b...f5p6o2_400.gif

Non mobile link: http://sports.yahoo.com/news/greivis...0900--nba.html

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

Yep...He started on my fantasy team. I lost the turnover category every week BUT i always won Assist.....:hihi:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/7b32e336b...f5p6o2_400.gif

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Between him, Steph Curry, and (shocker) Kobe, my assist category was like 2nd/3rd in the league

he's gotta go while some teams still see value in him

I don't think this is that big of a deal. His defense is more of an issue. Like the article states, there are 6 players above him in turnovers, and all play for playoff teams. We either need better talent at PG or a lot better talent at the other positions.

How's it among the rest of the lg?

IM fine with it

It would obviously be better if the number of turnovers were lower, but I agree that you need to look at the stat in context. It is a problem, but it isn't an "OMG, why is he even on the team?!?" type problem.

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Originally Posted by Gumbo Jackson

It is a problem, but it isn't an "OMG, why is he even on the team?!?" type problem.

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True. His defense however is another story. He's a backup PG.

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Originally Posted by ItsPaulyP

True. His defense however is another story. He's a backup PG.

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A great backup PG or an average starter. :shrug:

I turned the ball over alot, but did you see who he passed for that record? Not Dan Dickau, not Jarret Jack, not Speedy Claxton, not Joe Blow, but he passed Baron Davis. The same Baron Davis that many thought was a top 5 pg in his prime. Not bad for a 1st year starter.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

I turned the ball over alot, but did you see who he passed for that record? Not Dan Dickau, not Jarret Jack, not Speedy Claxton, not Joe Blow, but he passed Baron Davis. The same Baron Davis that many thought was a top 5 pg in his prime. Not bad for a 1st year starter.

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I am confused as to what you are trying to say

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

I turned the ball over alot, but did you see who he passed for that record? Not Dan Dickau, not Jarret Jack, not Speedy Claxton, not Joe Blow, but he passed Baron Davis. The same Baron Davis that many thought was a top 5 pg in his prime. Not bad for a 1st year starter.

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It's true you have to play a lot and have the ball in your hands all the time to set this record but what bothered me was the type of turnovers he committed. This guy had to have gotten stripped at half court more than any guard in the league and those turnovers almost automatically lead to points.

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Originally Posted by jgman

I am confused as to what you are trying to say

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Change the I to he as in Vasquez. That's how I took it.

Yeah sorry, I meant he, not I (however that would fuel the "UNO Gracias is GV").

He played a lot, and he did a good job, and a less than equall bad job handling the ball.

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Originally Posted by GESWhoseBack

It's true you have to play a lot and have the ball in your hands all the time to set this record but what bothered me was the type of turnovers he committed. This guy had to have gotten stripped at half court more than any guard in the league and those turnovers almost automatically lead to points.

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I remember so many inbound plays where he cause a turnover for us, just simple things

So he passes more than most, plays more minutes more than most, and that results in turnovers.

So what?

Oh, they didn't tell you the real story. I see . . .

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Originally Posted by 42

So he passes more than most, plays more minutes more than most, and that results in turnovers.

So what?

Oh, they didn't tell you the real story. I see . . .

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Like they say, there are always 3 sides to a story, your side, my side, and the truth. An outsider Would give an entirely different opinion than what we hear on this board every day.

Who's the my here?

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Originally Posted by 42

So he passes more than most, plays more minutes more than most, and that results in turnovers.

So what?

Oh, they didn't tell you the real story. I see . . .

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Ok let's put it this way, Lillard is a rookie who played more minutes than anyone in the league almost 500 more than GV and he had less turnovers than GV. Not saying GV bad but he can be upgraded on definitely.

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Originally Posted by 42

Who's the my here?

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Who's on 1st?

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Who's on 1st?

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Why you asking me?

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Originally Posted by GESWhoseBack

Ok let's put it this way, Lillard is a rookie who played more minutes than anyone in the league almost 500 more than GV and he had less turnovers than GV. Not saying GV bad but he can be upgraded on definitely.

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Let's put it this way:

Lillard: 3166 minutes, 531 assists, 243 turnovers

Vasquez: 2685 minutes, 704 assists, 247 turnovers

So, GV has a turnover or assist every 2 minutes 49.4 seconds, with an AST/TO ratio of 2.85, AST%/TO% of 2.41

Lillard has a turnover or assist every 4 minutes 5.4 seconds, with an AST/TO ratio of 2.19, AST%/TO% of 1.99.

Lillard had a solid passing game, but Greivis' engaged in these very good or very bad passes (not all TO are passes, but let's assume these affected both players equally), far more often and at a jaw-dropping rate. The net result was a few more turnovers (4). Projecting his minutes out to equal Lillard's, GV would have gotten about 291 TO and 830 assists.

So pick all you want on those numbers, but tell the whole story.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Who's on 1st?

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Naturally.

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Originally Posted by 42

Let's put it this way:

Lillard: 3166 minutes, 531 assists, 243 turnovers

Vasquez: 2685 minutes, 704 assists, 247 turnovers

So, GV has a turnover or assist every 2 minutes 49.4 seconds, with an AST/TO ratio of 2.85, AST%/TO% of 2.41

Lillard has a turnover or assist every 4 minutes 5.4 seconds, with an AST/TO ratio of 2.19, AST%/TO% of 1.99.

Lillard had a solid passing game, but Greivis' engaged in these very good or very bad passes (not all TO are passes, but let's assume these affected both players equally), far more often and at a jaw-dropping rate. The net result was a few more turnovers (4). Projecting his minutes out to equal Lillard's, GV would have gotten about 291 TO and 830 assists.

So pick all you want on those numbers, but tell the whole story.

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So Lillard passed the ball less, I knew that but the you telling that makes it ok to throw the ball away more?

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Originally Posted by GESWhoseBack

So Lillard passed the ball less, I knew that but the you telling that makes it ok to throw the ball away more?

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Where did 42 say it was ok to throw the ball away?

It is times like this that I wish we had access to the super-secret stats that teams do. :( They have ways to track "bad" passes and "good" passes independent of if it resulted in a turnover, assisted score, or just added to ball movement.

One way to possibly explain Lillard's lower turnover rate is by asking how many times he shoots. After all, a missed shot doesn't count as a turnover. A ball-dominant guard that shoots more than he passes tends to have fewer turnovers than a ball-dominant guard that passes more than he shoots.

e: just looked it up: Damian shoots the ball ~3 times more each game than Greivis. It was also 3.0 to 3.2 turnovers per game for the players, favoring Lillard.

Yes.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Let's say we compare the driving record of two people. One person has been in 1 accident, the other, 2. Second driver seems worse, right? The first driver was looked at for a full two years, while the second had a surgery and was only on the road for 18 months. Getting worse, right? Well, the first one drove 100 miles a week because he was retired, while the second was a sales rep logging 1000 miles a week. So 1 accident in 10400 miles driven or 2 in 78000 miles?

More attempts means more failures and more successes expected than fewer attempts. Both increase. The rate is what is important: failures per opportunity for failure.

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Originally Posted by Kibner

Where did 42 say it was ok to throw the ball away?

It is times like this that I wish we had access to the super-secret stats that teams do. :( They have ways to track "bad" passes and "good" passes independent of if it resulted in a turnover, assisted score, or just added to ball movement.

One way to possibly explain Lillard's lower turnover rate is by asking how many times he shoots. After all, a missed shot doesn't count as a turnover. A ball-dominant guard that shoots more than he passes tends to have fewer turnovers than a ball-dominant guard that passes more than he shoots.

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Excellent point on missed shots... May affect GV too!

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Originally Posted by 42

Excellent point on missed shots... May affect GV too!

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Yeah, I edited my post with a quick and dirty lookup of simple per game numbers for them:

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    Lillard  Vasquez
TOV      3.0      3.2
FGA    15.7    13.0
AST      6.5      9.0

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I don't really have much to say about it other than I believe Vasquez is a league average PG and has almost peaked while Lillard is a bit better right now with a much higher ceiling.

e: Assists and turnovers are really hard to use when trying to accurately depict how well a player controls an offense. Neither of them can tell whether the recorded stat was generated by a good or poor decision. Still, 9.0 assists a game is not easy.

It has been done 28 times in the last 10 seasons.

The only people on that list are Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Rajon Rondo, Deron Williams, and Greivis Vasquez.

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Originally Posted by 42

Yes.

That is exactly what I am saying.

Let's say we compare the driving record of two people. One person has been in 1 accident, the other, 2. Second driver seems worse, right? The first driver was looked at for a full two years, while the second had a surgery and was only on the road for 18 months. Getting worse, right? Well, the first one drove 100 miles a week because he was retired, while the second was a sales rep logging 1000 miles a week. So 1 accident in 10400 miles driven or 2 in 78000 miles?

More attempts means more failures and more successes expected than fewer attempts. Both increase. The rate is what is important: failures per opportunity for failure.

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I understand your premise but what I said in the beginning is that I don't think most of Vasquez's turnovers would be considered on good passes as kibner stated or even on passes at all. GV had a tendency to get stripped often when pressure and I can't prove this but it seemed to be at a higher rate than the average PG and definitely more than he was stripping his man on defense. Like I said GV has the ball a lot whether I agree with or not and that will lead to him having more turnovers but that doesn't mean he should be satisfied with being a victim to ball pressure cause guys like Westbrook and Bradley smell blood in the water when they see him coming. But like I said I don't have any numbers to back this up but I watched a lot of games this season and this is how I saw it.

I doubt Vasquez was happy with his handling of on-ball pressure or his misplaced/mistimed/missed passes in transition and PnR offense this year. Whether he can improve there and being able to force his man into help defense will determine if he will be able to become a long-term starter for someone or a journeyman.

It's very easy to say "this cost is bad." What is harder, but more appropriate to do here, is to compare the various costs and benefits a player give you to the alternatives. The fact is that GV is well worth the costs, even if he's not the pg going forward.

You can talk about nonpassing turnovers, but if he'd passed it, he couldn't turn it over (once it arrived successfuly). So some of those are passing related... He should have passed. It's all an imperfect metric, like Kibner pointed out. Personally, I think most thinking on basketball value is just all wrong. Even shot attempts are far from really informative on terms of prediction.