Who would you have in the starting lineup next season? Gordon or Vasquez

It seems every member on this board wants atleast one of them to be traded and replaced. Some want both gone. Vasquez more so because most feel he's not a quality starting PG, and Gordon because of his injuries and max contract. Some people don't feel he's worth it or will ever be able to stay healthy for a full season. So I was curious who the majority prefers to be replaced. For me personally, it's Vasquez. He's a huge liability on defense and the hero ball stuff has gotten old since we have better scoring options (Gordon, Ryno, AD). Id like for him to stick around and be our "7th man" since Ryno will continue to be the great 6th man he is. That's why I titled the thread "Who would you rather be in the starting lineup next season" and not "Who would you rather trade before next season". So vote for the player you would prefer to be back in the starting lineup next season.

Well I was going to have a poll to make it simple, but I posted it before I made the poll accidently. :confused:

Now it won't let me add one, so maybe a Mod could help me out. :help:

Delete the thread and make a new one

Gordon, probably. But I'm one of the few that really wouldn't mind having either in the starting lineup next year. We aren't winning the ship next year so Vasquez and his leadership are welcome, and Gordon in the lineup means he's at least healthy.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Delete the thread and make a new one

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My computer is down, and I had to do this off my phone. Couldn't figure out how to post the poll using my phone. It would let me pick how many choices were on the poll, but I couldn't figure out how to put in what the choices were. I submitted the thread accidentally while trying to figure it out.

Move both or keep both. No point is ridding yourself of one without getting rid of the other. It's not like either has set the world aflame, but giving them a year to work together might help you.

Kind of hard to make a reasonable assumption/opinion right now as the roster can change a lot from now to August.

I want GV gone, I want Gordon to stay, unless we could get a stud for him, regrdless of position besides PF, we have enough of those. Only problem though idk who I would want to give Gordon up for. Some people will say a couple rookies but still i dont want a player who might be good, now would I give up Gordon and our 2014 1st for paul george? yes, then draft mclemore and sign jennings.

just noticed GV has a better assist to turnover ratio than rondo, jrue holliday, deron williams, but this doesnt show hero ball and missed shots but now if I can look up his TS% and compare it to the others we could really see how good GV is on paper, offensively that is.

anybody have a website where i can find advanced stats like players TS%?

one more question, sorry for thread jacking, the lower the defensive rating the better correct? I wanna compare GV offensively and defensively with some good PG's

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

just noticed GV has a better assist to turnover ratio than rondo, jrue holliday, deron williams, but this doesnt show hero ball and missed shots but now if I can look up his TS% and compare it to the others we could really see how good GV is on paper, offensively that is.

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It doesn't show Hero Ball, because that is a fabricated term people use to describe GV. His hero ball has kept us in as many games as it has out of, meaning, there have been far more problems than our pg play this season. PG play is probably #4 on list of things we need to improve on. Dude might be a backup pg, but he is a top 20 pg.

Gordon on the other hand, people say he is a stud, but his per is actually lower than Gordon's. People will say "well he is coming back from an injury." While those same people will also say "Well, he could play back to backs if he wanted, we are just playing it safe." What is it, is he not playing up to his standards (which aren't very high apparently considering his career), or is he just not as great as people make him out to be. To call him a stud, or an all star is a lie to your basketball senses. You know, and deserve better than to call him an all star.

I'm banking on Vasquez being part of a three way trade to Dallas. Cuban loves the stats and Vasquez fits into a demographic for Dallas like Lin did in Houston.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

It doesn't show Hero Ball, because that is a fabricated term people use to describe GV. His hero ball has kept us in as many games as it has out of, meaning, there have been far more problems than our pg play this season. PG play is probably #4 on list of things we need to improve on. Dude might be a backup pg, but he is a top 20 pg.

Gordon on the other hand, people say he is a stud, but his per is actually lower than Gordon's. People will say "well he is coming back from an injury." While those same people will also say "Well, he could play back to backs if he wanted, we are just playing it safe." What is it, is he not playing up to his standards (which aren't very high apparently considering his career), or is he just not as great as people make him out to be. To call him a stud, or an all star is a lie to your basketball senses. You know, and deserve better than to call him an all star.

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1. hero ball does exist
2. while i agree with u GV's hero ball has helped us out many many times this year it has also hurt us at times to, which is why i wanna know his true shooting %
3. PER is a crappy stat

Really wasnt asking if hero ball is a real thing or if GV does it or not, im just trying to compare him to other PG's which im doing now if I can find a decent website to show me.

And also I agree GV is a top 20 PG, maybe even top 10 offensively, but with monty's system we need a better defender.

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Originally Posted by Sleeper

I'm banking on Vasquez being part of a three way trade to Dallas. Cuban loves the stats and Vasquez fits into a demographic for Dallas like Lin did in Houston.

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Sign me up

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Originally Posted by Sleeper

I'm banking on Vasquez being part of a three way trade to Dallas. Cuban loves the stats and Vasquez fits into a demographic for Dallas like Lin did in Houston.

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What do you expect Dallas to give us or the third team? I don't see anything attractive over there.

Vasquez has a ts% of 50.4

-I don't know who we could get from Dallas for GV. Seeing as how GV is still on his rookie contract, you probably wouldn't get equal value.
-Does CP3 play hero ball? LBJ? Wade? Williams? Rose? If what they do is play hero ball, then yes, GV does play hero ball, somebody on our team has to. And seeing as how gordon is so often MIA, and our team is young, somebody has to carry that weight. If he didn't people would be upset we were starting a pg that did nothing.
-Per is as crappy a stat as any advanced stat. You get out of advanced stats what you want. You can't cast one away, while expecting others to take the one you subscribe to as true. It's like religion.

Are "Value added", or "estimated wins added" advanced stats that we can all subscribe to? Since PER is not a stat everyone agrees with (looking for a common ground)?

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Vasquez has a ts% of 50.4

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Thanks, where can I go to find out other players that I am comparing him to? Thanks!

name the player
Player A) TS%.504, TO 12.2, Reb 7.5, AST 34.8, USG 24.2, Value Added 216.7, Estimated Win Average 7.2
Player B) TS% .529, AST 14.9, TO 12.5, USG 27.6, Reb 3.5, VA 89.6, EWA 3.0
Player C) TS% .566, Ast 16.3, TO 10.1, USG 25.0, Reb 4.5, VA 254.2, EWA 8.5
Player D) TS% .593, Ast 15.0, TO 11.4 , USG 19.2 , Reb 4.3, VA 178.9, EWA 6.0

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

Thanks, where can I go to find out other players that I am comparing him to? Thanks!

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http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/holli.../_/position/sg

I don't "need" anyone gone ATM. I like what both players have to offer depending Vasquez's contract and willingness to accept a lesser role, and Gordons level of play going forward.

I would love see Vasquez as a 7th man coming in with the bench anywhere he can get minutes at the 1-3 (match-ups permitting for SF minutes) and as a spot starter at PG if needed (also match-up permitting. lol).

Theres no question we should be "actively shopping" Vasquez since he only has a year left on his contract and he possibly has inflated trade value, but if:
1.)the returns aren't there in the trade market
2.)the price is right in free agency
3.) He is willing to accept a lesser role
..then i say he's a pretty good dude to have on your side. The chances of all the happening? You can never be sure, which of course, is why you "actively shop".

Look we all know Gordon is overpaid this year, but lets be honest we weren't paying him to put us on his back and take us to the playoffs or anything this year anyway. He's being payed in the hopes that by the time our team is more or less filled out and ready to compete (1 y&1/2 to 2 years min) he will be worth the money, and will be a key cog on that team. we can afford to over pay now, due to our underpaying many other players. Frankly, we should consider ourselves lucky we have an owner with the $$$ and the ballz match such a deal in the hopes that:
A.) Gordon's potential is actualized
B.) We are able to get ANY value for him. doesn't matter what kind or how much

assets aren't just going to walk out the door for nothing if this new ownership and management can help it, unless they are and unrestricted FA. Even if so then we'll sign and trade:evilsm:

to answer the OP's question, I would start Gordon, but start rivers/smart;)/FA/whoever over Vasquez. That is not to say I want him gone of course

Question: Why do you think PER is a crappy stat? :)

Both will be gone, but not at the same time. Vasquez is our biggest trade chip and at the very least we have Rivers waiting in the wings. Gordon will be moved during the summer imo.

Gordon on the lineup and Vasquez off the bench.

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Originally Posted by RUFshreve

Well I was going to have a poll to make it simple, but I posted it before I made the poll accidently. :confused:

Now it won't let me add one, so maybe a Mod could help me out. :help:

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Poll added.

Neither, but again if I have to choose one Vasquez. For me Gordon should be moved as soon as a respectable deal is in place. I feel the longer we keep Gordon the less we'll get for him.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Neither, but again if I have to choose one Vasquez. For me Gordon should be moved as soon as a respectable deal is in place. I feel the longer we keep Gordon the less we'll get for him.

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I can't wrap my head around this position. The only way Gordon's value goes any direction other than up is if he gets re-injured - no more likely than any once-injured-knee player like cp rondo rose granger griffin or whoever. Those teams are going to get full value in a trade unless their player is forcing their way out. Theres no justifiable reason to rush/settle for a trade.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Mojo

I can't wrap my head around this position. The only way Gordon's value goes any direction other than up is if he gets re-injured - no more likely than any once-injured-knee player like cp rondo rose granger griffin or whoever. Those teams are going to get full value in a trade unless their player is forcing their way out. Theres no justifiable reason to rush/settle for a trade.

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He has an opt out clause going into year 4. So he'll have that hanging over the franchise's head the following year. So if we trade him next year that other team only has Gordon locked up for the rest of that year and the following year.

You gloss over the potential of him getting injured again like he hasn't every year for the past 4 seasons. Another injury plagued season will kill his trade value IMO. This is not even mentioning if he has problem with the team or his production isn't consistent. In order for Gordon stock to raise everything has to go prefect. With his history all it takes is for one thing to go wrong and his value will take a hit.

I just think it's far to soon to trade Gordon for scraps. He's going into the offseason healthy for once. Let's get a PG who can push the pace and penetrate, then we'll see what Gordon is capable of. I'm willing to keep him and risk another injury. I think the risk is worth the reward.

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Originally Posted by RUFshreve

I just think it's far to soon to trade Gordon for scraps. He's going into the offseason healthy for once. Let's get a PG who can push the pace and penetrate, then we'll see what Gordon is capable of. I'm willing to keep him and risk another injury. I think the risk is worth the reward.

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This once again is implying that all we can get for Gordon are scraps. Next how long does it take to realize the guy gets hurt every year. He's going into the off season healthy because he wasn't healthy coming into the season. Not to mention DNP's in back to back games.