Is there any real reason why Rivers cannot play Roberts' role next year?

Some might find this thread amusing or counter intuitive since I've been pushing drafting Burke if we're out of the top five draft range (and I'm still leading that train, got my conductors hat on and everything), but hear me out.

Save for a few supporters (Monty notwithstanding), we can all agree that Roberts is hardly an NBA player much less a quality backup, yes? I think that's safe to assume, but if not you can stop reading right now. :smarty:

Let's take a look at some stats from this year:

Roberts:

14.4 MPG
6.6 PPG
2.2 APG
5.98 PER

41% FG
37% 3PT
92% FT

Rivers:

23.3 MPG
6.2 PPG
2.1 APG
5.46 PER

35% FG
32% 3PT
55% FT

Now we all know just how horrid Rivers' start was. He has brought up his percentages slightly and I think we can all agree that he's improving. Even with the slow start his arc % and PER almost match Roberts, albeit not playing the same role.

Now a little bit more in depth:

Roberts: http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?...rian%20Roberts

Rivers: http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?...ustin%20Rivers

Biggest thing to grasp from most of the advanced stats: Rivers is markedly better defensively. Which I think we all knew. He's as quick if not quicker than Roberts down court, quicker laterally, and plays screens better. In addition is Defensive Rebound Rating is around 25% higher.

Add to that the fact that he has not in the last 77 minutes of playing turned the ball over once.

In closing I want to reiterate that I think Burke should be our pick if we're picking 7-10 or so. He would be perfect in the backup 1 role and have tons of time to learn behind Vasquez before either GV leaves or he simply outplays GV for the starting spot. But if McLemore, Oladipo or Smart are there when we pick, Rivers is the answer at backup point and the same situation could unfold.

:coolg:

Forget next year. This is what everyone has been screaming for this year. Fact is, the offense runs better when Austin initiates it. Which isn't surprising considering Roberts doesn't initiate anything but his own shot.

Roberts would be a solid injury insurance 3rd string combo guard. Rivers is already better than Roberts this year though IMO, and by next year he should have passed Roberts by a good margin.

I've seen MORE than enough to say Rivers should be getting every single minute as the main ball handler whenever he's on the floor. Even when Gravy is on the floor at times.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

I've seen MORE than enough to say Rivers should be getting every single minute as the main ball handler whenever he's on the floor. Even when Gravy is on the floor at times.

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I honestly don't see why rivers and davis arent above 30mpg

I don't understand why you guys are so in love with Rivers. He's terrible! No left-hand, no range and he looks tiny. I thought this kid was suppose to be able to jump out of the gym. I have yet to see that explosive ability.

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

I don't understand why you guys are so in love with Rivers. He's terrible! No left-hand, no range and he looks tiny. I thought this kid was suppose to be able to jump out of the gym. I have yet to see that explosive ability.

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Rivers playing Roberts role is being in love with him :hihi: ?

Roberts is an ideal 3rd PG... not a backup. probably even better off the ball and let Rivers run the point and Roberts spot up

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Originally Posted by AD23nEG10

Roberts is an ideal 3rd PG... not a backup. probably even better off the ball and let Rivers run the point and Roberts spot up

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IMO, our wings are terrible outside of Gordon. Roberts is the best option we have at the backup PG spot. Monty can see that... And yes, there is a love affair with Rivers. I don't understand it. He is a kid without a position. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to be a PG (all he has is his "AND 1" crossover) or the shooting ability to be a SG or size to play anything else.

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

IMO, our wings are terrible outside of Gordon. Roberts is the best option we have at the backup PG spot. Monty can see that... And yes, there is a love affair with Rivers. I don't understand it. He is a kid without a position. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to be a PG (all he has is his "AND 1" crossover) or the shooting ability to be a SG or size to play anything else.

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Seems like you hate him more than we love him.

I don't think Roberts is significantly better than Rivers at anything. At least the ball moves when Austin has it. Roberts only tries to get himself going.

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

IMO, our wings are terrible outside of Gordon. Roberts is the best option we have at the backup PG spot. Monty can see that... And yes, there is a love affair with Rivers. I don't understand it. He is a kid without a position. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to be a PG (all he has is his "AND 1" crossover) or the shooting ability to be a SG or size to play anything else.

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Austin will make u eat your words in 2 years. Austin is my homie!

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

IMO, our wings are terrible outside of Gordon. Roberts is the best option we have at the backup PG spot. Monty can see that... And yes, there is a love affair with Rivers. I don't understand it. He is a kid without a position. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to be a PG (all he has is his "AND 1" crossover) or the shooting ability to be a SG or size to play anything else.

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man you gotta stop eating these things...they'll kill ya.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_z2gdXVWbur...hater_tots.jpg

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Originally Posted by The JNR

Seems like you hate him more than we love him.

I don't think Roberts is significantly better than Rivers at anything. At least the ball moves when Austin has it. Roberts only tries to get himself going.

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Hate him??? I don't know him to hate him. However, I do know that he is not ready for the NBA. Sorry I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

man you gotta stop eating these things...they'll kill ya.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_z2gdXVWbur...hater_tots.jpg

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LOL! I guess that's the best you can do. No good points to support your argument so just call me hater. Brilliant...

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

LOL! I guess that's the best you can do. No good points to support your argument so just call me hater. Brilliant...

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Yea we've never debated Austin Rivers' talents on this site before...... This is the first time all season someone brought it up. Ground breaking stuff here :)

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

Yea we've never debated Austin Rivers talents on this site before...... This is the first time all season someone brought it up. Ground breaking stuff here :)

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True. But I didn't start this thread. ;-)

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

True. But I didn't start this thread. ;-)

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No you did not but you did click on it to come hate on him, hence the responses you received.

I gave my point. The reason I think you hate him is because you must hate him to think Roberts is better. At least with Rivers, the potential for improvement is there. I don't see it in Roberts. To me, which I know is my opinion, Roberts isn't nearly as good as Rivers. I'd much rather Austin run our point off the bench.

I don't think anyone has professed their love for AR though. I think people love him versus Roberts all day, but in general people have been down on him. He's starting to show flashes (finally) and people are starting to cling on that a bit, but i don't recall anyone saying AR is going to be an All star.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

I don't think anyone has professed their love for AR though. I think people love him versus Roberts all day, but in general people have been down on him. He's starting to show flashes (finally) and people are starting to cling on that a bit, but i don't recall anyone saying AR is going to be an All star.

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Silvefoxx did.

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Originally Posted by The JNR

Silvefoxx did.

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Yeah but he did specify that it would take some years before that happend. LOL

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Originally Posted by The JNR

Silvefoxx did.

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After he posted about people being in love with him, not before.

But seriously I think next year you see a much improved Austin. I don't think he'll light the world on fire but I'll think Monty will trust him more to run the point full time with the 2nd unit. Roberts is 27 years old. Aint no upside left in him.....

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

True. But I didn't start this thread. ;-)

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You might not like Austin or you might think hes terrible. Fair enough. If your acting like hes not improving your just as ignorant as the people you criticise; if not more so. There are maybe a couple of ppl touting Rivers to be great, so i dont know where your love afair BS applies. The thing that Im noticing is Rivers is learning to play off the ball a little better as well as his improved finishing. Before he would really struggle to get involved without having the ball in his hands. Now he actually takes some shots even if he doent get too mant touches. He just gotta keep working at it.

And yes i believe in this kid. His on ball defense looks good and he is only 20. He has plenty of room to improve.

I think Rivers is on the court as a 2 to watch and learn how to play the point.
Yes he can do this from the bench but moving around going to the right places
on the court and creating offence off the ball will do his confidence wonders.

Should Gordon have been healthy all season, then noone would have ever even noticed Austin's struggle. We had noone to step in and start, Austin was overwhelmed going against players that he wasn't more skilled than for the first time in his career. He's been working hard on when to take what shot and it shows. He plays 10 minutes (at the most) for the first couple of months with a healthy Gordon and Mason, and theres no reason for anyone to cry bust. Shame thats not the case.

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Originally Posted by Mr. West

Should Gordon have been healthy all season, then noone would have ever even noticed Austin's struggle. We had noone to step in and start, Austin was overwhelmed going against players that he wasn't more skilled than for the first time in his career. He's been working hard on when to take what shot and it shows. He plays 10 minutes (at the most) for the first couple of months with a healthy Gordon and Mason, and theres no reason for anyone to cry bust. Shame thats not the case.

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Exactly. With Gordon out Rivers was forced into a starting role and the media took no prisoners. People bash players bc of the things they do see in the boxscore. Rivers struggled with his finish mightily, but he beat defenders at will off the dribble. The media just likes to highlight his weaknesses and forget there are plenty of other rookies struggling as well. Hype can kill a players confidence when one doesnt perform to the standards expected.

I'm high on Rivers because of the player he will be in 2 years, not because of the player he is today.

In high school, the guy dominated more than any other high school player dominated anyone else in the whole country. He was ranked as the #1 prospect, and I believe he set some sort of a scoring record his senior year. His game wasn't based on athleticism like so many high school guys games are - that isn't to say he lacks athleticism, because he certainly has extreme quicks and a good verticle. He was a scorer in multiple ways, and he beat people with superior skill, basketball I.Q., and confidence. The point is that, on an equal playing field, he was able to dominate his age group.

In college, he had a very slow start, and everyone was wondering what was up with him. Come the 2nd half of the season, his game really starts to pick up. Towards the end of the season, he worked his way back into the top-10 of the draft. That means something. So, he took some time to adjust to the college level, but he did it in under a season and regained his dominant form.

Now he is in the NBA, and he is one of the youngest players in the league, and he had some major struggles through the 1st half of the season, and you people are surprised? Really?!?! I mean, Demps warned you all that Rivers would take time to adjust to the league. Anyone who has followed Rivers up to this point would know that, but the vast majority of people on this board haven't, so they don't know. Rivers, for whatever reason, isn't very quick out the gate. You all brought this on yourselves, as BOTH Demps and Monty told you all there will be growing pains. And now you guys are crying because he isn't what you thought he'd be out of the gate? Get out of here with that weak BS.

That said, he was the most dominant high school player in the nation his senior year, and he was one of the most dominant freshman in college ball last year at the end of the season, and he is obviously starting to get better at the NBA level. There is a trend here. After a slow start, Rivers dominates. The guy wouldn't even take a family vacation because there wasn't a gym where he could shoot at. That's dedication. That's heart. That's the type of competitive drive that truly great players have, and that is the reason that Rivers will be successful in this league. How can any of you guys hate on a 20 year old kid who has heart like that? I don't get it. You guys are spoiled and ungrateful and just plain ridiculous.

It's pretty simple, Rivers was drafted as a project. If you haven't seen any improvement from game 1 to now I don't know what you're watching?
His defense has improved significantly since the start of the year.
He is finishing at the rim much more then he was to start the season.
You can see the game is STARTING to slow down for him.

Don't take it from me take it from Monty :

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``Austin is working his butt off, he’s been playing a little more solid basketball and we’re going to give him a shot,’’ Williams said. ``He works at it, he goes through ups and downs like most rookies, but he really works at it. He’s starting to understand how much we want him to succeed. He’ starting to find his niche, starting to drive to the basket and taking open shots and he’s getting better at weak side defense.’’

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

It's pretty simple, Rivers was drafted as a project. If you haven't seen any improvement from game 1 to now I don't know what you're watching?
His defense has improved significantly since the start of the year.
He is finishing at the rim much more then he was to start the season.
You can see the game is STARTING to slow down for him.

Don't take it from me take it from Monty :

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Sure... He definitely improvement, relatively speaking. He couldn't be any worse than he was in the beginning of the season.

I think if we were to draft Burke like PH desires, we could move Rivers to the 2 and if he plays well, he could make Gordon expendable for a low price. Rivers and Burke could be a phenomenal back court in the future. My only concern is that it may be a tiny back court.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

It's pretty simple, Rivers was drafted as a project. If you haven't seen any improvement from game 1 to now I don't know what you're watching?
His defense has improved significantly since the start of the year.
He is finishing at the rim much more then he was to start the season.
You can see the game is STARTING to slow down for him.

Don't take it from me take it from Monty :

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Yep.

It's also little things too that casual fans don't notice. For instance, they didn't like that Rivers shot a 2-footed floater, so he worked on it, and now you can see that he does the 1-footed floater the majority of the time. Also, they didn't like how he kicked his foot out on his jumper, so now, he doesn't kick his foot out. You guys may think that's an easy fix, but it really isn't. Imagine doing that your whole life, every single day you practice that hundreds of times, multiply that by years, and that is how ingrained those habits are... Rivers, who is only 20, was so dedicated to improving that he fixed those issues in less than half of a season. That's beyond impressive, especially when you factor in the fact that he's a rookie and his head is already spinning, and it's even more impressive when you factor in the fast paced NBA lifestyle where you are always traveling, playing back-to-back games, and to top it all off, they barely even practice!!!

I know most of you guys don't notice these things, but some of us do. I can tell you Monty does, and that is why he praises Rivers, even though his numbers aren't great.

Side note: I bet you guys don't notice this either, but Rivers is one our best guys at boxing out. He boxes out all the time, and most of the time he doesn't get the rebound, but it really opens things up for other guys to get easy boards. That kind of stuff goes unnoticed, but it's beautiful to watch because you can really see how many "little things" he does and how high his basketball I.Q. really is. Also, I've never seen anyone improve so dramatically on the defensive end in one season like Rivers has. The guy is really something... His defensive rotations are SO much better than what they were when he first started here. His 1-1 defense is amazing **points to the game where he totally shut Kobe down at the end of the game, despite Kobe isolating him every time** If you can hold your own against Kobe Bryant, the best 1-1 player in the league, as a rookie... Man... How can you guys not get excited about his potential?

I dunno if it was last game or game before last but they showed a replay and Rivers actually boxed out the opposing teams Center!
What he is doing OFF THE BALL now compared to the start of the year is impressive.
Scoring will come, Monty knows that. You can see how much he is working on his defense.
I agree with Slim his Rotations to start the year were TURRIBLE now he is growing to be one of the best defenders on the team imo.
Kid plays with a ton of heart on both sides of the ball. His heart plus his work ethic won't allow him to fail.
Give him 3 years then hate at all you want. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatPelican

I dunno if it was last game or game before last but they showed a replay and Rivers actually boxed out the opposing teams Center!
What he is doing OFF THE BALL now compared to the start of the year is impressive.
Scoring will come, Monty knows that. You can see how much he is working on his defense.
I agree with Slim his Rotations to start the year were TURRIBLE now he is growing to be one of the best defenders on the team imo.
Kid plays with a ton of heart on both sides of the ball. His heart plus his work ethic won't allow him to fail.
Give him 3 years then hate at all you want. Time will tell.

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It was last game on Wednesday. I was actually quite impressed with that, because that's stuff that goes unnoticed during the course of the game, but ESPN made a point to show how hard Rivers works.

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

Yep.

It's also little things too that casual fans don't notice. For instance, they didn't like that Rivers shot a 2-footed floater, so he worked on it, and now you can see that he does the 1-footed floater the majority of the time. Also, they didn't like how he kicked his foot out on his jumper, so now, he doesn't kick his foot out. You guys may think that's an easy fix, but it really isn't. Imagine doing that your whole life, every single day you practice that hundreds of times, multiply that by years, and that is how ingrained those habits are... Rivers, who is only 20, was so dedicated to improving that he fixed those issues in less than half of a season. That's beyond impressive, especially when you factor in the fact that he's a rookie and his head is already spinning, and it's even more impressive when you factor in the fast paced NBA lifestyle where you are always traveling, playing back-to-back games, and to top it all off, they barely even practice!!!

I know most of you guys don't notice these things, but some of us do. I can tell you Monty does, and that is why he praises Rivers, even though his numbers aren't great.

Side note: I bet you guys don't notice this either, but Rivers is one our best guys at boxing out. He boxes out all the time, and most of the time he doesn't get the rebound, but it really opens things up for other guys to get easy boards. That kind of stuff goes unnoticed, but it's beautiful to watch because you can really see how many "little things" he does and how high his basketball I.Q. really is. Also, I've never seen anyone improve so dramatically on the defensive end in one season like Rivers has. The guy is really something... His defensive rotations are SO much better than what they were when he first started here. His 1-1 defense is amazing **points to the game where he totally shut Kobe down at the end of the game, despite Kobe isolating him every time** If you can hold your own against Kobe Bryant, the best 1-1 player in the league, as a rookie... Man... How can you guys not get excited about his potential?

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You're making good points, slim, but you're kind of beating us over the head with the "you don't notice this" aren't you? Comes off condescending.

I don't see him as a backup if he keeps improving like this, if so he'll be a starter. I'm impressed by his growth already. I'm mean man he SUCKED lol after he fixes every little thing that's wrong(which he's slowly doing) he can only get better.

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Originally Posted by The JNR

You're making good points, slim, but you're kind of beating us over the head with the "you don't notice this" aren't you? Comes off condescending.

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My bad man. I'm really not trying to be this way. I just know that when I watch games with my friends, I see a lot of stuff that they don't see because I played the game for so long. I also get frustrated when people say how much Rivers sucks just because he doesn't put up gaudy numbers. He is a better player than people give him credit for, and he has all the tools you look for going forward.

I appreciate you pointing it out, because when I re-read it, it may come off that way, but it was not my intention. I'll try to word things a little better, but again, it's just a lot of little things that I would imagine the average fan doesn't pick up on. It's the same idea as to how basketball defenses switch based on the batter's hitting tendencies. I never notice that stuff because I didn't play much baseball growing up, but I have a buddy that plays college ball, and he points that stuff out all the time when we watch games. Same idea.

During Rivers' prime, what do you think his role will be in this team?

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Originally Posted by Emilio

During Rivers' prime, what do you think his role will be in this team?

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Honestly, he is a big moment guy, and I can see him being our 2nd best player (because I expect Gordon to probably be gone in 4 years, unless his health improves). So, if that's true, I can see him being our closer (along with AD), and I can see him being a leader of this franchise. I think he and Davis will do big things together. Again, I am biased because I've followed Rivers for a while, but he certainly has that potential. I think he'll be an All Star, and I think we will win a championship with him and AD leading the way. That said, I still expect Davis to be the better player by far. Davis could revolutionize the game. Rivers could be a great #2.

Most people will laugh at this, but I think they change their tune in a couple of years.

Do you see him more of a PG or SG long term? I know he isn't playing a lot of PG, but I am intrigued by him developing into our starter there in a couple years.

Roberts is a better player. He's a good 3-point shooter and essentially never turns the ball over. Austin takes care of the ball too - that's really his one notable strength at this stage - but he's just not ready to contribute to a winning team right now.

That said, Roberts is a decent, but very replaceable player. I don't argue that Rivers shouldn't get the minutes, because he's got more upside to develop and we're not exactly gunning for the postseason.

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Originally Posted by MonsterMash

Roberts is a better player. He's a good 3-point shooter and essentially never turns the ball over. Austin takes care of the ball too - that's really his one notable strength at this stage - but he's just not ready to contribute to a winning team right now.

That said, Roberts is a decent, but very replaceable player. I don't argue that Rivers shouldn't get the minutes, because he's got more upside to develop and we're not exactly gunning for the postseason.

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It might as well be a turnover every time he dribbles the clock down to 3 seconds to jack up a bad shot.

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Originally Posted by donato

Do you see him more of a PG or SG long term? I know he isn't playing a lot of PG, but I am intrigued by him developing into our starter there in a couple years.

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I think his natural playing style is that of a PG. He doesn't pass like a Chris Paul or a Steve Nash, but he is an above average passer, with potential to grow because he has great court vision. That said, I think he is tall enough to play SG. If you can stop Kobe Bryant 1-1, you can defend any SG in the league. I'd like him to put on some weight no matter what, but he could pay both. His production is much better at the 1 though, and you can see how much more confident he is with the ball in his hand.

So to answer your question directly, I like him better at PG.

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

I think his natural playing style is that of a PG. He doesn't pass like a Chris Paul or a Steve Nash, but he is an above average passer, with potential to grow because he has great court vision. That said, I think he is tall enough to play SG. If you can stop Kobe Bryant 1-1, you can defend any SG in the league. I'd like him to put on some weight no matter what, but he could pay both. His production is much better at the 1 though, and you can see how much more confident he is with the ball in his hand.

So to answer your question directly, I like him better at PG.

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I like him as a PG as well. Strong ball-handler, penetrator, quick feet. I think he needs to model his game similar to Tony Parker. That's the kind of playing style Rivers reminds me of.

River' ball handling>>>> Vasquez's

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Originally Posted by DC-Hornet

IMO, our wings are terrible outside of Gordon. Roberts is the best option we have at the backup PG spot. Monty can see that... And yes, there is a love affair with Rivers. I don't understand it. He is a kid without a position. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to be a PG (all he has is his "AND 1" crossover) or the shooting ability to be a SG or size to play anything else.

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I agree with our wings are not that good on the offensive end outside of Gordon. It would really be good for us to get an athletic scoring wing in the draft and another one in free agency. But Rivers is better option at PG and Guard for that matter than Roberts. I don't see Rivers as a starting PG or SG in this league at this moment, but I do see him as a solid 1st swing guard off the bench.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

I like him as a PG as well. Strong ball-handler, penetrator, quick feet. I think he needs to model his game similar to Tony Parker. That's the kind of playing style Rivers reminds me of.

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Agreed. I see him as a more explosive/athletic Tony Parker. Really, I see him as a Russell Westbrook w/ a higher basketball I.Q., but he is slightly less athletic. I like Rivers off the dribble better than Westbrook though. Rivers has better functional speed because he understands the game better, whereas Westbrook is just running around like a chicken with his head cut off, but he can dominate because of how athletic he is.

Parker and Westbrook are great guys to model your game after, and I can see Rivers as a hybrid.

Roberts is seriously the most ridiculed players on this forum in a long time, it's sad. The guy puts up a good amount of points at what, 12-14 minutes a game?

Rivers averages 10 more minutes than Roberts, he's already in that role. I wish nothing but the best out of Rivers but he's still way too raw to count on him every single night to back up Vasquez. Roberts has been distributing the ball a lot more lately and the offense has been flowing well when he's on the court. Yet, when he makes a mistake, everyone is done with him.

I've been done with Roberts for weeks. I've been done with Vasquez as starter even longer. But by the same token, the moment either have a good game it's sticking it to people like me.

Roberts' defense is as bad as Vasquez, without the excuse of Vasquez being too slow. The only thing he can do is shoot. If his shot isn't falling, he's utterly useless. But it won't stop him from jacking up shot after shot. Someone like that should be relegated to barely even seeing the floor.