Hornets Winning as of late... How much credit do you give to Gordon?

The Hornets are now 4-1 in games that Eric Gordon plays in, but I think we can all admit he is not playing very good ball per his standards. Tonight he was 2-12, 5 points, 6 assists, and 5 turnovers.

Is it correlation or causation? How much credit do you give to Gordon for the recent winning streak and how much do you give to other players, defense coming together, etc?

I think he is a huge contributing factor

thats the best part, he's still far off from producing how he can but you see the better defense our team is playing, guys getting open looks.

whether great players are hot or not the other team isn't going to stop focusing on them. he's been huge

but don't let J-Smith's return get lost in all this either

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Originally Posted by Vinny6420

I think he is a huge contributing factor

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I think we would all agree with that- but an exact percentage. Sometimes I feel like we give him all the credit. Is that fair? Should he get 10%? 50? More? Less?

I think the defense is much improved because of Gordon so that alone is big.

Then I think he was completely responsible for the Charlotte win, and you could argue we definitely don't win against SA or DAL without him.

Has he been the best player in these 5 games? No, but I don't think we win without him so I give him a lot of the credit.

We don't win a single one of those games with out him. No question in my mind. Even tonight, he didn't score at the end, but he was setting up people left and right. Then Vasquez tried to take over, and he lost the ball 2 straight possessions.

I think its a combination of Eric Gordon and Jason Smith coming back, Grevis playing with a swagger, and better defense. I think Eric Gordon is just so much better than a Roger Mason/Rivers starting 2. Eric Gordon, even if shooting terribly creates a lot of attention and he's a willing passer especially in a pick in roll with Jason Smith. I know +/- aren't really reliable but even today he was a plus 2 on the floor.

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Originally Posted by Bee-Fense

I think the defense is much improved because of Gordon so that alone is big.

Then I think he was completely responsible for the Charlotte win, and you could argue we definitely don't win against SA or DAL without him.

Has he been the best player in these 5 games? No, but I don't think we win without him so I give him a lot of the credit.

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This is something that nobody seems to be talking about, but he is completely locking down his man. There is a direct correlation between our massive defensive improvement as a team, and Gordon returning to the lineup.

Stats since Charlotte game (against real teams)

MPG: 30
FG%: 31
3pt %: 7 (not a typo)
PPG: 13.5
APG: 3.8
RPG: 2.3
TO: 3.5

Those are very similar to some Austin Rivers stretches when he was starting.

I personally think he gets some credit (25% or so) but I think it is more correlation than causation. Other guys have looked great, even when EG was on the bench. And that's what makes us scary, like CP and DX said. Imagine how good this team can be when he actually starts playing well

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

We don't win a single one of those games with out him. No question in my mind. Even tonight, he didn't score at the end, but he was setting up people left and right. Then Vasquez tried to take over, and he lost the ball 2 straight possessions.

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Okay, but do we win a single one of those games without Vasquez or Anderson? You can say that about several guys, right?

I think "his standards" was the key word. He's still replacing a guy in Austin Rivers who was playing terrible on both ends of the floor.

Guys have stepped up with him on the court, but he has a lot to do with the better defense as well.

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Originally Posted by nolaslim213

This is something that nobody seems to be talking about, but he is completely locking down his man. There is a direct correlation between our massive defensive improvement as a team, and Gordon returning to the lineup.

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Actually, our defensive rating when Gordon is off the court has seen a dramatic spike as well. These guys are playing much better overall. We can't give him credit for other guys play even when he is on the bench, can we?

No doubt it is bc of Gordon. Even in the games he played poorly his pretense alone took pressure of of Vasquez and other players. He is penetrating at will and passing more than he ever has in his career. Ryno is the teams leading scorer and has bad some bad games recently, we haven't noticed bc of Gordon's contributions on both sides of the floor.

I dont have a number but we are 3-1 when he plays, we are on a three game winning streak against our division foes, and we playing very well defensively

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Actually, our defensive rating when Gordon is off the court has seen a dramatic spike as well. These guys are playing much better overall. We can't give him credit for other guys play even when he is on the bench, can we?

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i actually think you can, he instills confidence in his teammates, he's vocal, he's a veteran compared to a lot of these guys. it rubs off, they set a good example as starters and it carries into the bench. that energy, flow, chemistry, etc. wasn't there without him

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The Hornets are now 4-1 in games that Eric Gordon plays in, but I think we can all admit he is not playing very good ball per his standards. Tonight he was 2-12, 5 points, 6 assists, and 5 turnovers.

Is it correlation or causation? How much credit do you give to Gordon for the recent winning streak and how much do you give to other players, defense coming together, etc?

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Definitely agree with this, but IDK about anyone else, I myself never really understood the whole game shape thing, and there are times where after Gordon has a few trips up and down, he just looks tired. Maybe I'm just looking too much into it though. However I do think there is something to getting arguably your best player playing again that has seemed to kick the guys up a notch

I would say 50%, the players on the team have a renewed sense of confidence now that the team is healthy. There are no more excuses with Gordon being on the team. The combination of confidence and a sense of pride have galvinized the team and caused them to believe that they are capable of winning games, and when they lose, it is a true reflection on them as players and not simply based on the team being incomplete (unhealthy)

"The presence" argument can't be debated. It can't be proven or unproven, so I guess some will just believe and others won't. I definitely see an improvement when he is on the floor, but I also see some guys playing much better than they were earlier this season even when he is off the floor. Aminu, for instance, plays a lot when Gordon is on the bench and looks much better. Smith is hitting his jumpers again in that 2nd unit that Gordon is not on. Mason killed it tonight and Gordon was on the bench- he had nothing to do with that run.

I guess I am just weary of giving one guy all the credit because that kind of disrespects the other guys who I think have been lights out lately, both with Gordon on and off the floor

i think the fact that we were 6-3 with him last yr also plays a role in my theory that we just play with more confidence with him on the court...monty mentioned early in the season that we didn't believe we could win...you can tell we are playing with confidence now...and by reading some of the quotes by some of the players, you can tell they believe now more than ever that they can win any game

i give him 50% credit due that and am just so excited to see how good this team can be with a healthy game-shape gordon

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Originally Posted by Vinny6420

I dont have a number but we are 3-1 when he plays, we are on a three game winning streak against our division foes, and we playing very well defensively

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Ahem. 4-1

When you are a 10 win team every W is huge LOL

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBrow

Ahem. 4-1

When you are a 10 win team every W is huge LOL

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Sorry I meant meaningful ones ;))

can't we just enjoy that we are winning again?? lol

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Originally Posted by CP4MVP

can't we just enjoy that we are winning again?? lol

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My point with this thread was to point out that other guys are playing great too. Gordon is playing poorly and we are winning. Imagine when he gets up to full speed and these other guys keep playing at this level. That will be scary

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

My point with this thread was to point out that other guys are playing great too. Gordon is playing poorly and we are winning. Imagine when he gets up to full speed and these other guys keep playing at this level. That will be scary

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and for the non-tankers

winning=greater chance of davis winning rookie of the yr, vasquez winning MIP, and ryno winning 6th man

If other players are stepping up their game it is more evident of a mental hurdle that was cleared rather than a increased level of skill. That being said Monty did say that he would not be able to evaluate the team fully without Gordon being healthy. The coaching may have improved along with the level of play. When you have a reliable player that returns the playbook can open up. It is obvious that the team spaces better now, and players are better understanding their roles, probably without Gordon on the court guys could not be in their proper roles, with him back, other players are free to play within their skill set rather than try to overcompensate

I think one of the biggest thing he gives you is direction. We've seen countless times where this team would blow leads or run out of gas right after taking a lead and then come up short.

With Gordon on the court, the offense no longer looks confused and lost when they need someone to give the ball to. Even when he's cold from the field, at least you have someone who will be aggressive and look to attack. We've seen countless times where no one knows what to do with the ball because everyone is looking for someone to do anything. This usually results in a turnover or a very poor possession with no rhythm or flow.

Gordon is an automatic spacer. Teams are less likely to sag off of him and will more than likely draw attention of multiple defenders and he takes pressure off our guard due to his ability to handle the ball. This opens up things for Vasquez and his production has improved along with his consistency.

Last but not least, he gives up the ability to close games. This is probably the single most important thing he adds. We are starting to win games we've lost in the past because of his ability to take over when we need it.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

My point with this thread was to point out that other guys are playing great too. Gordon is playing poorly and we are winning. Imagine when he gets up to full speed and these other guys keep playing at this level. That will be scary

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I agree with almost all of this, but Gordon's poor play is pretty much on the offensive side only....and to his credit, he hasnt allowed this to hinder his defense at all....and watch out for his offense once it all starts to click again....like you said....scary....

His contribution can't be measured with stats. Whats overlooked is he has an extremely high basketball IQ so he will contribute even if the shot is not falling (or getting battered and the refs go blind). He can play off the ball or be one of the league's better point guards if asked.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

His contribution can't be measured with stats. Whats overlooked is he has an extremely high basketball IQ so he will contribute even if the shot is not falling (or getting battered and the refs go blind). He can play off the ball or be one of the league's better point guards if asked.

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He can do those things, but has he been doing those things or are we assuming those things and confusing causation with correlation?

I guess I will ask this- Do we win more games in this last stretch with Vasquez and no Gordon or Gordon and no Vasquez?

If you see any of the games live, the answer is apparent. Gordon runs the point and sets his help on defense with the best.

Definite NO and probably yes. Mason was big in that Charlotte comeback as well, but they probably lose to Dallas without Vasques. They needed all hands on deck for that W.

He is 100% the reason we are winning. Even when his shot is off, defenses still have to stay honest, and he has been creating for other players on the team. He also takes the load of Vasquez and makes him a starter-quality PG. His defense is also extremely good and he has elevated AFAs performances because now AFA can stick to rebounding, running and defending.

Yeah I agree with that. Plus, he gives you a guy that can score 20 a night on a consistent basis plus he can create his own shot.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Okay, but do we win a single one of those games without Vasquez or Anderson? You can say that about several guys, right?

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Of course not. Basketball isn't about 1 player. It takes a team to keep it close, and it takes a "superstar" to put you over the edge. Most of our games this year have been close like these last 4-5 games, but we didn't have a guy who can literally take over the last 5 minutes of the 4th quarter and win the game like Gordon can. Same deal as last year. No Gordon = no wins. Gordon comes back, and we are over .500.

There are no statistics that can measure the type of intangibles that Gordon provides for this team. Vasquez, Anderson, Davis, they are all good players, but Gordon can get take over the game. That is what this team has needed most. It's no coincidence that we are 4-1 since Gordon returned.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Actually, our defensive rating when Gordon is off the court has seen a dramatic spike as well. These guys are playing much better overall. We can't give him credit for other guys play even when he is on the bench, can we?

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I think we can all agree that Gordon is a significant upgrade for the perimeter defense. That makes it easier on the bigs. Ripple effect....

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

"The presence" argument can't be debated. It can't be proven or unproven, so I guess some will just believe and others won't. I definitely see an improvement when he is on the floor, but I also see some guys playing much better than they were earlier this season even when he is off the floor. Aminu, for instance, plays a lot when Gordon is on the bench and looks much better. Smith is hitting his jumpers again in that 2nd unit that Gordon is not on. Mason killed it tonight and Gordon was on the bench- he had nothing to do with that run.

I guess I am just weary of giving one guy all the credit because that kind of disrespects the other guys who I think have been lights out lately, both with Gordon on and off the floor

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It most certainly can. Not the way you want to debate, because there is no hiding behind numbers with your analysis. There are some things that you just have to use your eyes for, and this is one of them. You are trying to quantify what Gordon brings to this team, but that isn't possible.

Gordon is a great defender... This aspect of his game is always forgotten.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Okay, but do we win a single one of those games without Vasquez or Anderson? You can say that about several guys, right?

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But in the context of us "winning as of late" and playing well I think that about 40% goes to getting a dynamic talent Gordon(who's also our BEST player keep in mind) on the floor. Im pretty sure any team of any sport that gets their best player back will get a boost of confidence.

Gordon's 1 on 1 defense is superb. I love how he gets in the opposing player's chest and doesn't allow them to get a head of steam off the dribble. His D tonight allowed the rest of the team to mostly stay home on their shooters. I even remember one point where he guarded TWO guys on the perimeter by himself. He ran out and forced the pass to the corner, cut to the corner, closed out, and forced a dribble along the baseline. It's just fun to watch. Yeah, James Harden got 25, but he also committed 7 TO's compared to 3 assists while only shooting 6 FT's. Gordon set the tone for his night. If he wasn't hitting the hero jumpers he normally misses, we would have broken his scoring streaks. Also, I just get a much different tone from the team knowing he's playing. It gives them a confidence boost to know that they have their best player and their closer on the court, and that alone is massive.

Long answer short. He is THE reason we are 4-1. I don't care what anyone says. The team is just flat out better with him on the floor. He turns GV into not only a serviceable PG, but a damn good one. He is the anchor of our defense. He is our closer. I just hope he's ok after appearing he tweaked his knee tonight.

Will throw out my full basketball analytical skills for you....

We win a lot when he plays. We lose a lot when he doesn't.

There ya have it.

We are great because we have a young quick frontline, who's length and Debth is superior; that's wwe won with Anderson and cou and Gordon now with not doing well.

but none of this can happen without a player like like Eric Gordon. he has given the whole team competitions

We have been playing hard all year. It's not surprising that we have pulled out a few wins. I think it's that time of year where good teams start to over look bad teams. However I think giving Gordon a fourth of the credit for this win streak is fair. The team does seem more lively with him than without and you can't discredit the big shots he's hit.

Yes!
He is why we can play a suffocating defensive frontline to begin games whie remaining
the only a couple of teams that could beate us with a hea. lthy gordon in a serie, s. it's great to have depth on the front line

but Roberts and rivers wouldn't be in the rotation of a top notch team. if we could sign Eric Bledsoe next year, and have a Vasquez as a sixth man backing up both guards, how's second unit would kick your *** and I first unit would be the best defense by far

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Actually, our defensive rating when Gordon is off the court has seen a dramatic spike as well. These guys are playing much better overall. We can't give him credit for other guys play even when he is on the bench, can we?

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I think you can. He has shifted roles, something I think you pointed out in a podcast about Mason now being able to just be a spot up shooter rather than a primary ball handler and Rivers is now going against 2nd units. Trying to assign a percentage to Gordon's effect on the team is like trying to assign a percentage to what makes a car go, the engine, the wheels, the gas? The engine may be the most important part but all parts are needed for it to work. Gordon is the engine, that's about as far as you can go in quantifying it IMO.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

My point with this thread was to point out that other guys are playing great too. Gordon is playing poorly and we are winning. Imagine when he gets up to full speed and these other guys keep playing at this level. That will be scary

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And you want to trade him because??????

It's simple. Last year and this year combined we are 31-70 (30.6 win%). Of those games when Gordon plays we are 10-4 (71.4 win%). Give credit where credit is due. Vasquez and Smith has been playing great, Mason hitting some big shots, but Gordon is the key to all of this.

100% agree that it's his fault we're better... He actually scares the opposing defense an they have to account for him on the court. When Rivers started, they just played as if it was 5 on 3 basketball bc our SF doesn't produce. Also I think Aminu's rebounding is helping out a lot since Lopez and Smith aren't the greatest rebounders.

If the question (which I think it is) is how much has Gordon individually had to do with us winning, I don't think it's much. You're right in that if you remove Vasquez or Anderson, we also are not likely to win those games. So no, Gordon is not "carrying this team on his shoulders".

However, having Gordon back makes the team better. Being able to take Rivers out of the starting lineup, for instance, takes the pressure off of him and reduces the number of minutes the team has with an underperforming 2. As has been mentioned in this thread, it allows players to go back to their more natural roles. It also simply makes us a much deeper team. The guys coming off the bench are higher quality than what we had to do with Gordon and Davis injured.

We saw that this team was close several times during the time Gordon was out. I think getting Gordon back is more of the piece that pushes the team over the edge, rather than being a "savior."

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Originally Posted by RaisingTheBrow

And you want to trade him because??????It's simple. Last year and this year combined we are 31-70 (30.6 win%). Of those games when Gordon plays we are 10-4 (71.4 win%). Give credit where credit is due. Vasquez and Smith has been playing great, Mason hitting some big shots, but Gordon is the key to all of this.

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Hell yeah!

Because he's injuried often, he's yet to prove he can have an impact that warrants a max deal(yes I know he has the potential), he appears to be mentally weak or at the very least immature(so while some are ecstatic he appears to be "happy" now that immaturity means his state of mind is subject to change) and he's injuried all the time.

I understand anybody in the camp of gambling on Gordon however I don't know why some are shock that others would rather not risk the franchise on Eric Gordon.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

Last but not least, he gives up the ability to close games. This is probably the single most important thing he adds. We are starting to win games we've lost in the past because of his ability to take over when we need it.

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This is the main point right here. When that Houston game and SA game came down to the final moments, that is where you will see Gordon's biggest effect. I give Gordon 70% of the credit. 25% of his physical effect and 45% mental effect of the confidence the rest of the team has when they know we have one of the best players on the court on our team. Go back and watch the 4th Q of the past two games. When there is doubt in the outcome, everyone knows we can give it to Gordon and let him bring it home.

I know this may come off as sounding trivial, but I think having Gordon back has allowed the team to exhale, and everyone can relax and settle into their natural roles. With that comes the ability to focus on the little things on both ends of the floor that help you win close games.

Part of his game that is lost is his defense. Yes, he's struggled offensively in the games that he's been back from. but he creates a lot of open baskets for other players. Just like the guy above me, he's not "carrying this team on his shoulders" but he's made other players play better and you can tell there is a spark to this team that four weeks ago they did not have.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Hell yeah!

Because he's injuried often, he's yet to prove he can have an impact that warrants a max deal(yes I know he has the potential), he appears to be mentally weak or at the very least immature(so while some are ecstatic he appears to be "happy" now that immaturity means his state of mind is subject to change) and he's injuried all the time.

I understand anybody in the camp of gambling on Gordon however I don't know why some are shock that others would rather not risk the franchise on Eric Gordon.

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They like the risk because the reward (10-4) is better than getting average players in return and having a mediocre team for the next few years.

Even though Gordon isn't producing well statistically, I do think he has had a big impact on the floor with his ball-handling, play-making, defense, and threat as a scorer. I don't think its coincidence that Vasquez's game has taken off since Gordon's arrival. Plus with Gordon starting, it means alot less minutes for Rivers which helps the team overall.