point guard.....pass first or shoot first?

This has been kicked around in various threads, but here it comes again.....a pass first "floor general" with elite court vision who should probably be a bit more unselfish {Kendall Marshall} or......an extremely efficient shooting point who needs to work on his vision and passing skills and probably become less selfish {Damian Lillard}....best fit for the direction we are moving in?

There's more to the debate between the two. If Marshall had Lillard's athleticism it wouldn't even be contest

In general I would say a pass first point guard. But in all honesty, when you start the conversation with specific players, you would have to say Lillard. The dark horse in the who is the best point is Wroten. He's a guy who can be a pass first point guard and look for his own shot. He came out way too early though, he's really raw right now, maybe more so than any other prospect, he can't shoot, he can't go right, and he is too reckless at times, that being said between the 3 of them he has the most talent. I would warn point guards to stay at least two years. It's a position where you can't always excel by just being more athletic than everyone.

It doesn't matter. Whoever you think will make our team better the most, that's who we want.

Anyway. Don't assume Lillard is selfish or all about getting his own cuz he scored a lot. He only lost the conference finals cuz he spent the whole game trying to set up his teammates. The dude is a playmaker. He's not the perfect passer, but he's a willing passer.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

It doesn't matter. Whoever you think will make our team better the most, that's who we want.

Anyway. Don't assume Lillard is selfish or all about getting his own cuz he scored a lot. He only lost the conference finals cuz he spent the whole game trying to set up his teammates. The dude is a playmaker. He's not the perfect passer, but he's a willing passer.

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Yea I think he's a lot like Irving or Curry in the way that he doesn't look to score, he looks for whoever will get the best shot, but often it's himself. He's not Westbrook or Rose where he often looks to score where he could have passed it for a better shot.

Lillard was really efficient at Weber. He is an older prospect so that gives him less margin of error compared to younger prospects.

Unlike at Weber, he will play next to Gordon and Davis.

The only question is will he take shots at the expense of the rest of the team or fit within the team concept and play off the ball more with his deep range and attack when necessary. I do think he is a slightly better prospect than Marshall right now and would give the team an extra perimeter scorer and floor spacer.

I think it comes down to risk vs. proven. I like Lillard alot, and have no doubt that he will come into the league and be at the very worst an average scorer and an average passer. But Marshall WILL be a above average passer and have a good, if not great, assist to turnover ratio. Will Lillard come in and be Russel Westbrook, or fall closer to an average PG like Mike Conley? I don't really know, and I'm not trying to heat up any Lillard lovers by saying that.

I personally like Marshall myself, if you look at them in a vacuum. I just love the idea of someone coming in and making their teammates better and just controlling the tempo and offense like a well oiled machine... But then you take it out of a vacuum and who does he pass it to? Of course Gordon for one, and Davis for alley oops for two, but then who? Ariza? Aminu? Oak? I mean, we are a defensive first team, but we can't expect Davis to come in and average 19 ppg his rookie season any more than we can expect Gordon to put up 30 every night. We really need more scorers and Lillard is undoubtedly the better scorer of the two. His shot and lane penetration may be unrivaled in the whole draft. If we plan on keeping Ariza/Aminu at the 3 and Oak at the 5, we need a scorer at the 1. That's just common sense.

So basically I'm saying... I don't have a clue if I would prefer Marshall or Lillard. Either would make me a happy man with the tenth, personally. Kind of a cop out answer, but I honestly don't prefer one or the other.

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Originally Posted by Mr. West

I think it comes down to risk vs. proven. I like Lillard alot, and have no doubt that he will come into the league and be at the very worst an average scorer and an average passer. But Marshall WILL be a above average passer and have a good, if not great, assist to turnover ratio. Will Lillard come in and be Russel Westbrook, or fall closer to an average PG like Mike Conley? I don't really know, and I'm not trying to heat up any Lillard lovers by saying that.

I personally like Marshall myself, if you look at them in a vacuum. I just love the idea of someone coming in and making their teammates better and just controlling the tempo and offense like a well oiled machine... But then you take it out of a vacuum and who does he pass it to? Of course Gordon for one, and Davis for alley oops for two, but then who? Ariza? Aminu? Oak? I mean, we are a defensive first team, but we can't expect Davis to come in and average 19 ppg his rookie season any more than we can expect Gordon to put up 30 every night. We really need more scorers and Lillard is undoubtedly the better scorer of the two. His shot and lane penetration may be unrivaled in the whole draft. If we plan on keeping Ariza/Aminu at the 3 and Oak at the 5, we need a scorer at the 1. That's just common sense.

So basically I'm saying... I don't have a clue if I would prefer Marshall or Lillard. Either would make me a happy man with the tenth, personally. Kind of a cop out answer, but I honestly don't prefer one or the other.

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I agree with this post. Its close either way and really wouldn't get upset at either pick.

I could also live with the team going for Meyers Leonard if they believe he will develop into a strong solid center.

Right now my gut is leaning towards Lillard/Marshall and Leonard over Lamb/Ross and Terrence Jones.

Its really close with Lillard/Marshall/Leonard.

I wouldn't draft Leonard with the 30th pick,
Lillard
Sullinger
PJ3
Lamb
Marshall
At least one of those guys will be there, I wouldn't take anyone else.

It's tough to say. I'd normally prefer a pass first point guard, but it's not like we have great scorers on the team already. Gordon is not a 25 point a night scorer, or at least not yet. Plus there are injury concerns. Of Lillard and Marshall, I would have to go with whoever I feel is the better overall player... not just go off their playing styles. Certainly that's where working out these players will come in play for the team. The Hornets will probably work out the top 20 players in the draft... and rightfully so with the 1st and 10th picks.

I'd still prefer Sullinger at 10 since he's a good low post scorer and has very good basketball IQ. However, it's now looking like he will be long gone by 10 if doctors pass him on health issues.

Score first PG off the bench, pass first pg starting.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Score first PG off the bench, pass first pg starting.

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Marshall to Davis alley oops. Jack or Dyson off the bench to score.

If you want to speed up Davis development on offense, you need a pass first point guard who can get the ball to him in his favorite spots. If you aren't expecting him to be an offensive force any time soon and would only like him to focus on defense, you'd want a shoot first PG to take pressure off of him to score.

Either way, it's going to interesting to see what this staff does in the coming months. We do have a shoot first PG and a pass first PG on the roster at the moment.

Pass.

We don't need a PG. We need scorers.

Because of recent events, I'm slowly moving to the Marshall zone instead of Lillard. Here's why...

With Gordon | Ariza (Aminu) | Davis | Okafor, Monty could EASILY hide Marshall's lack of foot speed (the same way he used to do with Belly). Also, Marshall is a very CEREBRAL player - one that's attested just by watching him. He's one of those PGs who you could actually say controlled the game without getting any points or assists. He was that good of a floor general.

Now, how does he fit with Gordon you say? Well, all he needs to learn is how to catch and shoot -- a very simple skill that a lot of NBA players eventually acquire (a skill that according to David Thorpe is the easiest thing to teach). Plus. I'm so impressed with his basketball acumen.

What really scares me though is his defense. Although I've thought of a way to cover that up - is it possible that Gordon guards the quick ones and Marshall guards the big ones? Marshall is listed as 6'4 (although he also has a 6'4" wingspan), so I think there can be times where he guards the big guards. That's just my opinion though.

In the end, I love Lillard but I'm also warming up to the idea of Marshall. Whoever, Hornets will be AWESOME!

Pass first.

The comparisons don't really matter between Marshall and Lillard anymore because I think there is a fat chance Lillard is still there at 10. But if he is, I'd be just as happy with Lillard as I would with Marshall. I think he's going to be a heck of a pg.

Hard to say for me between Lillard and Marshall. Neither have been good defenders in college even though I think Lillard has more upside defensively with his athleticism and foot speed.

Offensively Lillard can play off the ball and spread the floor or create a shot if needed while Marshall can run the offense and make the right plays and shoot decently.

I give the slight edge to Lillard because I think he's a more dynamic prospect with his scoring and athleticism. I'm also looking at Leonard closely and Terrence Ross and Lamb not far behind. I like Terrence Jones too, but he's behind those guys. If i had to make a list of guys available:

Lillard
Leonard
Marshall
Ross
Lamb
TJones

This list is fluid and will probably change.

Marshall would be a reach at 10th. And chances are there will be a better player available to preclude the option of trading down. This team is not in dire need of a point guard this upcoming season -- it can survive with Jack/Vasquez for purposes of growth/rebuilding. If Lillard is available, however, you take him because of his offense potential/athleticism. I just see no need to draft Marshall.

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Originally Posted by TPDG22

We don't need a PG. We need scorers.

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This.

Greivis Vasquez could take over the starting role next year and I'd be perfectly ok with it. I think him and Gordon play great together and despite his lack of quickness, I think he makes up for it with height and length. I mean, did anyone see this guy play last year?!

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Score first PG off the bench, pass first pg starting.

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Ok then, Greivis starting and Jack off the bench.

Why waste a pick(s) on something we already have?

If I were to get a PG in this draft, I'd trade down and get Teague. Explosive, played under one of the best coaches in CB, all -around game, and familiar with AD (obviously).

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Originally Posted by iNolaNightmare

Ok then, Greivis starting and Jack off the bench.

Why waste a pick(s) on something we already have?

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I agree whole heartedly

You get your bigs first who take longer to develop then next year or the year after add a point who can adjust to the game faster IMO

For our team, the ideal PG is one who is a good passer, but can also knock down the open shot.

Late in games, EJ will be doing most of the ball handling, so we will need a PG who can help space the floor for EJ.
If our PG cannot make open threes, other teams will pack the paint, which will destroy the little offense we already have. This is why I also do not like Ariza or Aminu at the SF position. With Davis and Mek in the middle, we can sacrifice some length at SF for more scoring/shooting ability.

If I am forced to choose between Lillard and Marshall, I would take Marshall. I value passing ability much more than scoring ability for a PG. It's much easier to develop a shot than it is to develop court vision.

Lillard's team sucked... Even if you check out some of his highlights he made some assist when the guys were WIDE open, but his team was so bad that he had to score 25 ppg... Even with that kind of pressure the kid averaged 4.0 assist per... He's not selfish, just didn't have the type of talent that would allow him to be unselfish.

Lil Lard.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Poster

Marshall would be a reach at 10th. And chances are there will be a better player available to preclude the option of trading down. This team is not in dire need of a point guard this upcoming season -- it can survive with Jack/Vasquez for purposes of growth/rebuilding. If Lillard is available, however, you take him because of his offense potential/athleticism. I just see no need to draft Marshall.

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My question to that is: who DO you draft down the line (I assume we're talking 1-2 years) that will be as good as Marshall will be with 2 years NBA experience? If we're rebuilding, why not let a floor general like Marshall grow with us and let the team grow around him?

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze

My question to that is: who DO you draft down the line (I assume we're talking 1-2 years) that will be as good as Marshall will be with 2 years NBA experience? If we're rebuilding, why not let a floor general like Marshall grow with us and let the team grow around him?

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My answer to that is: get back to me in a year. Or two. I honestly have no idea what free agent PGs will be available during that time span nor does anyone honestly know how good Marshall will actually be two years from now. All you can do is play the percentages during the here and now and while I can't pretend to be an expert talent evaluator; I don't think I've seen any mock draft that has Marshall going as high as 10th (unless they have the Hornets taking him). So, again, I say you take the best player available at the 10 spot and I just don't think that's going to be Marshall.

To add: Many teams have had success/won titles without a premier point guard and there have been premier point guards that have never won a title.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Poster

My answer to that is: get back to me in a year. Or two. I honestly have no idea what free agent PGs will be available during that time span nor does anyone honestly know how good Marshall will actually be two years from now. All you can do is play the percentages during the here and now and while I can't pretend to be an expert talent evaluator; I don't think I've seen any mock draft that has Marshall going as high as 10th (unless they have the Hornets taking him). So, again, I say you take the best player available at the 10 spot and I just don't think that's going to be Marshall.

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So what's he a value pick at? 15? 13? I think that vein of thinking can cloud judgement. I'm not all in on Marshall, just saying that someone "isn't worth" a pick as high as ten doesn't sit well with me. That being said I'd be happy with about 5 different players at our pick.

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze

So what's he a value pick at? 15? 13? I think that vein of thinking can cloud judgement. I'm not all in on Marshall, just saying that someone "isn't worth" a pick as high as ten doesn't sit well with me. That being said I'd be happy with about 5 different players at our pick.

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It's not something anyone can give an objective answer to -- all I can go off of is my opinion and the other opinions I've read looking through these mock drafts and reading the analysis write ups from the journalists. It's also problematic because there is potentially a lot of flux after the Hornets pick first. You could come up with half a dozen or more plausible scenarios/draft orders at this point. Drummond could be there. Sullinger could be there. Lillard could be there. Waiters, one of the Jones', etc.

Drafting is less about getting the player your team is absolutely fixed on and more about playing the meta game of getting the best value out of your pick. That could entail drafting another player who has more potential talent/upside or possibly trading down.

The main thing to remember is that patience is by far the most important quality in achieving long term success. It has been said accurately that the Hornets ultimately squandered a great collection of core players (namely CP, DWest, and Tyson) by stretching our resources to acquire over-valued veterans. While winning is obviously the ultimate goal, one just has to look at OKC and San Antonio to see the advantages of patience combined with wise scouting.

That said, we really should just take the best player available with our pick at 10. After watching some of his tape, I really believe Lillard would definitely meet this criterion if he falls to us, although it's unlikely. While somewhat undersized, he's a great athlete who can shoot phenomenally well and IMO grow to become a more than solid distributer and defender. He also happens to compliment Gordon's game as he would provide perhaps the best perimeter shooting available in the draft. His ability to drive in the paint also makes him a compliment to Davis who can clean up for second chance points. Lillard has the talent and desire to make him a very good pro, but unfortunately I think others teams will catch on too soon.

On the other hand, I feel Marshall would be a reach at 10 and would be a mistake. His lack of athleticism limits him defensively, and I just don't see him improving his offensive game substantially. Although a great passer, the Hornets lack the scoring talent to really capitalize on that, and adding him would add little improvement over Jack/Vasquez.

Lillard may not be the best player available at the 10th spot.

Plus, even though PG may be need, improving our offense is a need as well, especially perimeter shooting and post offense. Now Lillard does fill some of that with his scoring and is a fantastic offensive prospect, but he's also older than guys like Marshall, Leonard, Ross, and Lamb who all could be better long-term.

if ur team sucks and u STILL score 25 while being double teamed and get 4 assists, ur a hell uv a player

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

if ur team sucks and u STILL score 25 while being double teamed and get 4 assists, ur a hell uv a player

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Nope. DOesn't matter cuz he played weak competition and had his weakest games vs decent teams. So, obviously, he's going to be...ah screw that.

Agree all the way.

Again, we don't need PG's. We need shooters. He clarified that in the conference video.

IMO Lillard is a scorer not a tradtional point guard .. While I think he fits the team, I don't really like him.

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

Lil Lard.

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Boris Diaw is already in the NBA :hihi:

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

Nope. DOesn't matter cuz he played weak competition and had his weakest games vs decent teams. So, obviously, he's going to be...ah screw that.

Agree all the way.

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I'll say it again. Weak competition with a weak feel for the game. Scores well but isn't the type to will your team to a win at all cost. If his scoring is off, he disappears. Look at his final game, he doesn't attempt to score for a whole 15 minute or so in the second half letting his team fall to a 20+ point deficit. The same thing happened against BYU and Cal. But you're enamored with his skillset.

I'd take a guy like Ross and Lamb in a strong SG draft over Lillard in a weak PG draft.

I think the Hornets need a PG that can hit an open 3 with regularity, can get across mid-court with little trouble, and does not dribble until the shot clock is down to 4 before trying to run a play. Personally, I love how hard both Jack & Vasquez play the game and also, the way they both get into the game from the bench, but an upgrade is needed at the starting PG spot.

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Originally Posted by Savagetaint

I think the Hornets need a PG that can hit an open 3 with regularity, can get across mid-court with little trouble, and does not dribble until the shot clock is down to 4 before trying to run a play. Personally, I love how hard both Jack & Vasquez play the game and also, the way they both get into the game from the bench, but an upgrade is needed at the starting PG spot.

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Your description sounds like a Mario Chalmers.

Chalmers has been a diggity doggone beast since Bosh went down.

This team doesn't need a true PG with the starting unit. Gordon is a hybrid guard as it is and has shown to be quite adept penetrating and passing.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

Your description sounds like a Mario Chalmers.

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I was actually thinking of Stephen Curry or Jrue Holiday. They need someone that is good with or without the ball since the offense will run primarily through Gordon.

just a reminder that the original post never did make mention of a 10th pick (or anywhere else in the draft for that matter)...solely looking for discussion based on two different styles at the point....additional question now....how would you describe Dragic's game compared to a Lillard and a Marshall?

I personally think we need a scoring SF who can knock down the open 3.
If a SF isn't there at 10 then I think we go after a C.

What are peoples thoughts on DJ Augustin from Charlotte if we can't Dragic?
He has said he wants to come home and I think that the Bobcats are higher on
Walker playing the point in their future.

I think he would cheaper than both Dragic or Lowry!

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Score first PG off the bench, pass first pg starting.

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Agreed. Look at a list of starting poing guards on championship teams since 2000. None of them fit the Lillard mold who is another A.I. in my opinion. It's filled with names like Derek Fisher, Tony Parker, Kidd, and Rondo. My point is pass first starting point guards will lead you to the promised land. Shoot first point guards don't. This MAY be the first year that could happen with Russell Westbrook but we'll have to see how it plays out. I have no problems with a score first point guard coming off the bench but I want my primary pg to be a facilitator. I take Marshall because he's a facilitator, he makes his team better, and he's proven against way better competition than Lillard.

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Originally Posted by BRHORNETSFAN

Agreed. Look at a list of starting poing guards on championship teams since 2000. None of them fit the Lillard mold who is another A.I. in my opinion. It's filled with names like Derek Fisher, Tony Parker, Kidd, and Rondo. My point is pass first starting point guards will lead you to the promised land. Shoot first point guards don't. This MAY be the first year that could happen with Russell Westbrook but we'll have to see how it plays out. I have no problems with a score first point guard coming off the bench but I want my primary pg to be a facilitator. I take Marshall because he's a facilitator, he makes his team better, and he's proven against way better competition than Lillard.

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True however I think you can find a pass first PG. You look at your list and non of those guys are the best player on their team. You could argue that many are not the second best player on their team. I think we need another scorer, whether in the low post or at the point, but low post is by far my biggest wish. Not a jump and dunker either (although it does not hurt) more of a create his own shot/shoot for range. Like D West that is able to drive and is willing to rebound. If we are looking at ten, I hope we look for offense. We can find a Derek Fisher.

In Lillard's draft workout/interview, he talks about being labeled a scorer and his passing ability. He said he was a scorer at Weber State because that was what he was asked to be. He has great basketball IQ and would be a great facilitator if needed. Monty said in his press conference that he would love to get a PG who he could develop behind Jack and Gravy. Jack is a combo guard who is a free agent after next year. Our team IS NOT set at the PG past next year, and people need to see that. Gravy is not a starter, he will be a solid career backup. Monty and Dell are obviously going to pick the best player available at #10, and Marshall will not be the best available player, so I see absolutely no chance of us drafting Marshall.

Back to the question of this post, pass first or score first? I don't think the two should be separated then force us to pick only one. A PG needs to be able to read his teams situation then decide if his team needs him to pass or score. CP3 was able to do that very well. He spoiled me because of it. Look at the rest of the all-star quality PGs: Parker, Westbrook, Rose, D. Will. They can all score and dish effectively well, depending on what their team needed them to do. So I'll go with a PG who can do both. Lillard via draft, or Dragic via free agency are the only two the Hornets have a realistic chance of getting. I'd rather Lillard because of age and our current ability to develop him without throwing him to the fire.

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Originally Posted by TPDG22

Again, we don't need PG's. We need shooters. He clarified that in the conference video.

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WTH is Lillard? So he's not a shooter? He scores point and knocks down 3s and jumpers! Go look at his statistics and scout reports.