Does wanting your team to lose make you less of a fan?

I have been going back and forth on this issue, both personally and as an overall issue. I will first admit that during the Clippers game, i was not rooting for us to lose per se but my ideal outcome would have been for the rookies to play great- along with West and Okafor- and for the Clippers to beat us by a point or two. My logic was that I want the pieces who might be here long term to improve and play well but I wanted to get as many ping pong balls as possible in the lottery.

After we won, I was kind of apathetic and have been thinking more and more about it and while I still would bet we arent going to make the playoffs, I will no longer prefer a loss to a win this season. However, for those who do want to see us hit rock bottom, I do not see them as any less of a fan. Their logic is that the suffering that will occur this year will make us a better team in the future- and will be best for the franchise overall.

I doubt these people root for our players to get hurt or play horrible, rather they would just prefer we play well but the other team plays just a little better. Now while a higher pick might not be better for our franchise overall
(after the top 2 picks, it seems like the number 10 pick is the one you want based on past years)- that is just a fault in their logic- it doesnt make them less of a fan IMO because their desire is still to see the franchise thrive.

Giving up on a team or only supporting a team when they are good makes you less of a fan in my book- but any time your desires are motivated by truly wanting to see the team be the best it can be, whether it is in the present or the future, you are a true fan IMO.

That's a tough question and I honestly don't know how to vote on a straight yes/no basis. I would never pull against my team, but I think I feel the same way that you say you do. Tanking the season and getting more ping pong balls could be in the best interest of the franchise down the line (provided the right moves are made), but I'd still prefer to see the Hornets win games even knowing we're not likely a playoff team.

I do like the idea of the young guys getting the opportunity to develop this year without really having to worry about them possibly costing us wins. I would like to include JuJu in that development too, but that may well be a lost cause. I can't really say I would blame anyone for wanting more ping pong balls, as I'd like them too, so I wouldn't necessarily say you're a bad fan for wanting the opportunity for the team to get better. I'll be in section 124 tonight watching...

The Stoics believed in simply changing goals so that you would more likely be pleased with the results. That is kinda what I have done this season personally. I no longer care one way or the other whether we win- I just root for the guys who could be part of our future to play well- CP3 west, Okafor, the rooks, and JuJu. If and when Devin makes a bad play, i dont care. My goal for the season is just to see those 6 play well and if we get the number 1 pick or the number 12 pick, I will focus on that when we get there.

I just bought tickets on the ticket exchange for tonight's game, and I will be there cheering on the Hornets. That said, I won't be openly rooting against the Hornets, but I won't be nearly as upset as I was last year if we do happen to lose. I think that a lottery pick (hopefully a pretty high one) would do wonders for this team. I haven't watched hardly any college bball this year, so I can't say who I hope we land but I know Evan Turner would b perfect for this team. Where is he projected to be drafted?

IMO voting for the team to lose when it is in that team's best interest doesn't make you less of a fan at all. Now I will say that it is very hard to actually root for my team to lose on a game by game basis because it's hard to see the forest for the trees. So even though when I watch an individual game I do find myself cheering when we go on a run and booing the other team, in terms of the big picture I know that what is best for the franchise in the long run is to get a lot of ping pong balls.

Also I hate "less of a fan" discussions in general because I think it's a false choice. You're a fan if you say you're a fan whether you hate Chris Paul, think the Hornets suck, only started watching them this year or in 07-08 etc. There is really no need to start labeling fans as "good" or "bad" or more or less of a fan. I voted no.

I personally find it odd to go cheering for ping pong balls this early in the season, certainly because the teams that tank rarely win it (that is in fact one of the reasons the lottery was instigated if I remember correctly). In an NBA world where any team can win or lose against any team on a given night (expect maybe New Jersey :p) I'm not in favor of cheering for your team to lose.

Also suppose we end last and get a top 5 pick, who's to say that pick even lives up to potential and if we'll even select the right player at the right time. The hornets also aren't really a top destination for free agents either and tanking the season after ten games won't really appeal to the 'winners' in the league.

This team is far from perfect and I think everyone sees this, along with managment. So even if they do decent, they still will change the strategies that haven proven disasterous in the past, we can see the young player development already bearing fruits. I personally could never cheer against my team and never will.

Just to clarify I'm not saying the Hornets should tank. IMO they're bad enough to get a top 3 pick all by themselves without actively seeking to lose, especially with Paul injured. I predict about 25 wins this year which should be good for 2nd or 3rd worst in the NBA. Also remember that the Knicks, even though they suck right now, have every incentive to start winning since the Jazz own their pick completely unprotected. That's why they're going hard after A.I., they think he'll get them a few more wins (doubtful IMO). I just know I'll be really pissed if the Jazz get a stud with the number one pick and end up being a legit contender next year because Isiah Thomas was an idiot :bah:

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Originally Posted by nolagoblue

I just bought tickets on the ticket exchange for tonight's game, and I will be there cheering on the Hornets. That said, I won't be openly rooting against the Hornets, but I won't be nearly as upset as I was last year if we do happen to lose. I think that a lottery pick (hopefully a pretty high one) would do wonders for this team. I haven't watched hardly any college bball this year, so I can't say who I hope we land but I know Evan Turner would b perfect for this team. Where is he projected to be drafted?

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Turner is a lottery lock as of right now and could go up as high as 5 or fall to 12-13. He is not as athletic as some of the other wings that could come out Like Paul George or Ebanks from WVU, but he is polished and wont be a bust. A Brandon Roy type of safe pick- although he probably wont get that good. A better NBA comparison I saw is a rich man's Anthony Parker from 2-3 years ago, and I agree. Can shoot and score but wont average over 20 in the NBA, can rebound, can defend, great passer, etc. Would be a great fit with Paul as he can take the ball out of Paul's hands. Also, if you play him at the 2- you probably have the best rebounding backcourt in the NBA which would make up for West. If the stud PF's are gone, I'd take him.

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Originally Posted by Sengir

I personally find it odd to go cheering for ping pong balls this early in the season, certainly because the teams that tank rarely win it (that is in fact one of the reasons the lottery was instigated if I remember correctly). In an NBA world where any team can win or lose against any team on a given night (expect maybe New Jersey :p) I'm not in favor of cheering for your team to lose.

Also suppose we end last and get a top 5 pick, who's to say that pick even lives up to potential and if we'll even select the right player at the right time. The hornets also aren't really a top destination for free agents either and tanking the season after ten games won't really appeal to the 'winners' in the league.

This team is far from perfect and I think everyone sees this, along with managment. So even if they do decent, they still will change the strategies that haven proven disasterous in the past, we can see the young player development already bearing fruits. I personally could never cheer against my team and never will.

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Yeah but this arguement is an arguement against the LOGIC of them choosing to hope we tank- not against whether or not it makes them less of a fan. So, for instance, if I think we should trade CP3 for Sebastian Telfair because he is better and will make us better- that makes my logic bad, but not less of a fan.

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Originally Posted by CP3 & 11 others

Turner is a lottery lock as of right now and could go up as high as 5 or fall to 12-13. He is not as athletic as some of the other wings that could come out Like Paul George or Ebanks from WVU, but he is polished and wont be a bust. A Brandon Roy type of safe pick- although he probably wont get that good. A better NBA comparison I saw is a rich man's Anthony Parker from 2-3 years ago, and I agree. Can shoot and score but wont average over 20 in the NBA, can rebound, can defend, great passer, etc. Would be a great fit with Paul as he can take the ball out of Paul's hands. Also, if you play him at the 2- you probably have the best rebounding backcourt in the NBA which would make up for West. If the stud PF's are gone, I'd take him.

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Interesting...thanks for the analysis. I do think if we pick as high as we should be picking we need to take the best player available aside from a PG. Though I guess if we pick first we could take John Wall and trade him for the number 3 pick for a PF stud and something else let's say and get even more value in the draft.

I voted no.

The NBA is a weird sport ... you are either in the playoff hunt or you are not, if you are not it's better to be on the lower end of the win total so you can take advantage of the draft. I'll watch every single game this year and if we lose them all it wouldn't bother me ... that said I really enjoyed the Clippers win and if we can somehow make it into the playoffs then fantastic.

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Originally Posted by CP3 & 11 others

Yeah but this arguement is an arguement against the LOGIC of them choosing to hope we tank- not against whether or not it makes them less of a fan. So, for instance, if I think we should trade CP3 for Sebastian Telfair because he is better and will make us better- that makes my logic bad, but not less of a fan.

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I know, it's a bit of a loaded question this one. I voted yes but on the basis of that argument my vote would be more towards the no/undecided camp. I personally just hate it every time the hornets lose (and I've been a fan since the Glen Rice days so I've seen a lot of that), so I have a bit of problem with people actively cheering for that to happen, especially if we support the same team :p.

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Originally Posted by metalzo

Interesting...thanks for the analysis. I do think if we pick as high as we should be picking we need to take the best player available aside from a PG. Though I guess if we pick first we could take John Wall and trade him for the number 3 pick for a PF stud and something else let's say and get even more value in the draft.

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The other benefit of having a higher pick is its trade value. You can trade it plus bad contracts for quality players- like Washington did this year and a few years ago (to get Antwan), or like the Celtics did to get Ray Allen. So if we land at 5 and dont want to wait on a 19 year old, we can move it and a bad contract like Posey to a team that wants to get younger and will give us a nice piece or 2.

I think right now it's too early to be rooting for that, but if we are 20-30 and it is obvious that we aren't making the playoffs we just as well get a high draft pick.

It's important to make a distinction -- at least for the purposes of my own answer. I think wanting your team to lose is perfectly acceptable. Hell, it was my bread and butter under the Mora and Haslett regimes when it was painfully obvious to everyone but Benson that those two both overstayed their usefulness by three or four years each. When you know that the team simply isn't going to advance beyond mediocrity with their current management and ownership will only make a change when the sky falls in (accepting mediocrity and sometimes rewarding it with contract extensions) then, you bet, I want the team to lose as many games as possible so even a Benson or a Shinn is forced to make a move.

Now, to his credit, Shinn has demonstrated a quicker hook than Benson and, at least in New Orleans, I think he's 1/2 in terms of hiring decisions and his mistake of Floyd was corrected swiftly.

In terms of openly routing for your team to lose? I think that's going a bit too far. I would never attend a game and cheer when the other team scored or anything like that. Would I boo a terrible coach and/or players who weren't putting forth effort? Sure, that's hardly uncommon.

Using this Hornets season as an example: does anyone really think anything good will come from a Bower/Floyd run team? And by good I don't mean 40ish wins and mucking about in the lower rungs of the playoffs (which shouldn't include as many teams as it does in the first place)... I mean 50+ wins, competing for the division title, a high seed in the conference, and the ability to actually compete for a title.

This isn't college football. We're not talking about a quaint little program like Tulane where it's cool for them to win six or seven games and get in the Fruit Loops Bowl so the alumni can have a fun little vacation to somewhere in Florida. This is a professional league where management, coaches, and players are paid millions upon millions of dollars to produce results. If you aren't legitimately competing for the championship, what's the point?

But what if we can turn this thing around and Byrons use of the players skills were the issue?

What if Bower and Floyd make a good coach?

I think it's too early to be thinking ping pong balls...after all start break, that's a different story. hah

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Originally Posted by CP3 & 11 others

Turner is a lottery lock as of right now and could go up as high as 5 or fall to 12-13. He is not as athletic as some of the other wings that could come out Like Paul George or Ebanks from WVU, but he is polished and wont be a bust. A Brandon Roy type of safe pick- although he probably wont get that good. A better NBA comparison I saw is a rich man's Anthony Parker from 2-3 years ago, and I agree. Can shoot and score but wont average over 20 in the NBA, can rebound, can defend, great passer, etc. Would be a great fit with Paul as he can take the ball out of Paul's hands. Also, if you play him at the 2- you probably have the best rebounding backcourt in the NBA which would make up for West. If the stud PF's are gone, I'd take him.

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Thanks CP, great analysis. I also think he would b a GREAT fit with Paul and he would allow Thornton to be our JR Smith or Jason Terry (our 6th man that can light it up any given night) because I think that is a better role for Thornton than starting is.

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Originally Posted by Unknown Poster

This is a professional league where management, coaches, and players are paid millions upon millions of dollars to produce results. If you aren't legitimately competing for the championship, what's the point?

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But, realistically, what, 5 or 6 teams are competing for the championship? Out of 30. In the last 30 years, only 8 championships have been won by a team other than the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, or Spurs. That's 73% of the championships going to the same 4 teams. So... what about the other 26 teams? If you're not in it as a fan for something else -- enjoyment of basketball, the game experience, Chris Paul, hope that you might see something great any given night-- other than championships, if there's nothing else that makes it worthwhile for you, you're going to be pretty miserable.

You can probably guess how I voted.

personally i just want us to go out and play GOOD basketball.

whatever happens by the end of the season happens.... take it one game at a time.

As long as we are playing good TEAM ball i could care less what our record is.

i voted no but i never root for my team to loose no matter how bad the season is going. a W is a W whether is means playoffs or not.
I can see the logic of wanting lottery picks but its not something i really care about....right now anyway.

Basically all i want is to watch enjoyable basketball games.
Even if we get blown out by 20 points if the rookies played well and we had effective ball movement that's still an enjoyable game in my eyes.

just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatHornet

personally i just want us to go out and play GOOD basketball.

whatever happens by the end of the season happens.... take it one game at a time.

As long as we are playing good TEAM ball i could care less what our record is.

i voted no but i never root for my team to loose no matter how bad the season is going. a W is a W whether is means playoffs or not.
I can see the logic of wanting lottery picks but its not something i really care about....right now anyway.

Basically all i want is to watch enjoyable basketball games.
Even if we get blown out by 20 points if the rookies played well and we had effective ball movement that's still an enjoyable game in my eyes.

just my 2 cents.

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I understand this argument, but what would you say if soemone came up to you and said, "Well I can guarantee you 10 units of fun for every hornet game for the next 6 years or you can have 3 units of fun for this year, 9 units of fun for all their games next year, 15 units of fun the following year and 18 units of fun for every year after that."

I think that is the central case of "the tanker". I will delay my enjoyment this year so that I can get more enjoyment in future years.

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Originally Posted by CP3 & 11 others

I understand this argument, but what would you say if soemone came up to you and said, "Well I can guarantee you 10 units of fun for every hornet game for the next 6 years or you can have 3 units of fun for this year, 9 units of fun for all their games next year, 15 units of fun the following year and 18 units of fun for every year after that."

I think that is the central case of "the tanker". I will delay my enjoyment this year so that I can get more enjoyment in future years.

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I understand your argument completely. And logically its solid and i don't think it makes you any "less of a fan". Then again i always thought the idea of bandwagon fans and "who's a bigger fan" blah blah its all B.S.

On the flip side though just because you get lottery picks doesn't mean you get good players? you could easily pick a BUST with a lottery pick. Just as easily as you could find a BEAST in later rounds you know?
Great in college doesnt always translate to good in the NBA.

Bottom line is either way your still a fan. Wanting lottery picks your still a fan cause at the end of the day you feel like that because you want your team to be better.
The people who don't feel the same as you because they still want the team to play well no matter the cost.
We're both fans just different approaches to the possible future? does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by ticktock6

But, realistically, what, 5 or 6 teams are competing for the championship? Out of 30. In the last 30 years, only 8 championships have been won by a team other than the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, or Spurs. That's 73% of the championships going to the same 4 teams. So... what about the other 26 teams? If you're not in it as a fan for something else -- enjoyment of basketball, the game experience, Chris Paul, hope that you might see something great any given night-- other than championships, if there's nothing else that makes it worthwhile for you, you're going to be pretty miserable.

You can probably guess how I voted.

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Don't get me wrong, I would still enjoy the product on the court. I can still appreciate good play it's just that I don't get very excited about a given win as much as I would if the team were heading in the 'right' direction, so to speak.

Your point about championships being monopolized by a small tier of elite teams is a good one, and it is true that larger markets have a little bit more of an edge in the NBA than they would in the NFL but, still, even historically awful franchises can elevate themselves to perennial contenders with the right management and personnel. It's just a shame the Hornets have a cornerstone/franchise player like Chris Paul and could possibly squander away his career with a poor front office. He's definitely the type of player a contender can be built around.

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Originally Posted by WhoDatHornet

Bottom line is either way your still a fan. Wanting lottery picks your still a fan cause at the end of the day you feel like that because you want your team to be better.
The people who don't feel the same as you because they still want the team to play well no matter the cost.
We're both fans just different approaches to the possible future? does that make sense?

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Excellent summation.

I have always followed the Hornets closely, and the NBA, and i consider myself to know it well. But there is alot I don't really know or understand. In the lottery, how are the ping pong balls allotted? Which teams get how many balls? (is that how it even works?)

We could be getting a great player this year right? Who's to say we don't draft a really dynamic wing player? Wouldn't that instantly turn around the team?

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Originally Posted by Puddinhead

I have always followed the Hornets closely, and the NBA, and i consider myself to know it well. But there is alot I don't really know or understand. In the lottery, how are the ping pong balls allotted? Which teams get how many balls? (is that how it even works?)

We could be getting a great player this year right? Who's to say we don't draft a really dynamic wing player? Wouldn't that instantly turn around the team?

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Essentially the worse your record is, the more ping pong balls you get. But it's a set ratio so that the worst team for instance always has a 25% chance of the #1 pick regardless of their record in a given year. Every team that did not make the playoffs has a chance at a top 3 pick though it gets much slimmer as you get toward the better teams. The lottery is only for the top 3 picks though and once that is determined, the remaining 11 teams pick in reverse order of wins. It is conceivable though unlikely that the team with the worst record picks 4th since it did not get a ping pong ball for any of the top 3.

EDIT: For a much more thorough explanation, see here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Draft_Lottery#Process

The team losing and getting a few more ping pong balls is a consolation prize; that said, I will never openly root for us to lose.

Coming from my years of being a soccer fan (where if your team loses games, it's ALWAYS a bad thing, in any case) it is a bit hard for me to get this kind of mentality. It's a lot different, i think, for people who can sometimes see the games on tv and not much more, to think about this thing. If I were one going to the hornets' games i'd only go to cheer them and help them (as much as a noisy fan can) get the W. Of course as a fan you hate to see your team lose bad, or lose and lose again. Maybe when a season has no real good ending, regarding playoffs chances, you can say that to see the team lose is not that bad if it can come with a relatively high pick in the next draft. But, that's not assured, unlike in the nfl, and even if that's what i think: if we lose then ok we'll have a high pick, i don't know and i doubt i'd think the same thing living in nola and attending hornets games. Then again, i don't really think you can just judge someone as "good or bad" fan because in any case he only wants the best for the team, and wether it's to win as many games as possible or losing as many as possible, it's simply different ways of seeing the same situation, nothing more and nothing less

For me it isn't so much a matter of draft position just that I'd rather not have Bower and Floyd perform decently enough as to warrant their retention. Unless they go ahead and get to the Western Conference Finals or something (which I'm going out on a limb and say that won't happen). The organization needs to clean house and sometimes it takes a pretty awful season for ownership to realize that.

it does make you less of a fan; if you are doing that right now so early in the season....different story if there is a week left in the season

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Originally Posted by Unknown Poster

For me it isn't so much a matter of draft position just that I'd rather not have Bower and Floyd perform decently enough as to warrant their retention. Unless they go ahead and get to the Western Conference Finals or something (which I'm going out on a limb and say that won't happen). The organization needs to clean house and sometimes it takes a pretty awful season for ownership to realize that.

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This is how I feel. I was at the Clippers game the other night with my brother and he kept asking me why I seemed so angry about a win. I told him it wasn't that I just think if Bower/Floyd start to win more then expected it's not going to help the franchise if they're brought back.

I want the Hornets more to be competive in every game and have a new GM/Head coach to come in regardless of what they do. But that might just be me.

I didn't mind losing in 2005. I mind losing now.

Yes it makes you less of a fan, fan is short for fanatic and you cant be a fanatic if you want your team to lose

Unless you name is Judas lol

I voted no, I think the people who see 'ahead' or long term voted the same way. Face it, if this team somehow scraps it's way to a .500 record this year or even a low playoff seed then we're going to be ******* out of a top 5 pick and management may be deluded into thinking this team can contend. I'm not going to root for us to outright lose but at the end of the year I hope we're somewhere between 20-30 wins with two rookies who had a promising year. I'll enjoy watching them and hope we add more youth.

I voted no in theory, but when the game starts I always find it hard to think lose hornets. I want them to win everygame when the game is on, after the game well thats a different story.

Come on, y'all really sat in that building and rooted for the team to lose?

You missed out on the most fun I've had in WEEKS. :-)

I don't think it's a matter of rooting for them to lose as much as it's an early acceptance should they lose that it's probably better in the long run. I can't go to watch my team play and root for them to lose...but I can walk away....after a loss....and realize that it's probably better off under our current circumstances.

well i think you should root for your team to win but like you said harvey, after a loss, it doesnt feel so bad cuz in the long run it might have been better that you lost..a loss doesnt have the same sting as a loss would have 2 seasons ago

kinda similar story going on in philly for the eagles, apparently a lot of eagles fans are rooting for the team to miss the playoffs cuz its popular belief that andy reid would get an extension if they made the playoffs and would be out of a job if he didn't make the playoffs, well according to sal palotonio at least

If its early in the season like this, even if the start was bad, I'm still wanting this team to win...now if its late in the season and we are mathematically eliminated from playoffs then yeah I would want them to lose(play bench players)

Its weird. I want to see us play awesome...but lose. I want to unload some contracts, as well as make a spectacular trade while hitting the draft lottery. And then celebrate the next 12 years of Hornet dominance.

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Originally Posted by ticktock6

Come on, y'all really sat in that building and rooted for the team to lose?

You missed out on the most fun I've had in WEEKS. :-)

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I know what you mean. The whole time I was watching the game I was very excited about the kind of play we are getting out of these guys.

I understand we need drastic roster changes ... but like CP said, we can always win while learning and changing. :D

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Originally Posted by NIH

I voted no, I think the people who see 'ahead' or long term voted the same way. Face it, if this team somehow scraps it's way to a .500 record this year or even a low playoff seed then we're going to be ******* out of a top 5 pick and management may be deluded into thinking this team can contend. I'm not going to root for us to outright lose but at the end of the year I hope we're somewhere between 20-30 wins with two rookies who had a promising year. I'll enjoy watching them and hope we add more youth.

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Seems to me though we did a pretty good job in the draft without a Top 5 pick this year....

Looking ahead, I think making wise personnel decisions once our big wasteful contracts expire is going to be more important to the future of this team than a single draft pick....

I think a lot of us have righteous desires. We want to win but we know it is 1 and done with this unit, and if we do make the playoffs Bower and Floyd stick around. What we really want is to miss the playoffs this year grab a nice lottery pick, trade off some bad pieces, get a legit gm/ coach tandem, and next year kill the nba.