After the smoke has cleared we really aren't that bad

I'm as gulity as the next guy upset and complaining about the lack of "success" (the way we perceive it) the Hornets had this season. Yeah I'm very dissapointed but after thinking it through more and more now that the smoke is clearing. The Hornets won 49 games.
Oh yeah sure you can say but they finished poorly and they were knocked out in the 1st round by a very hot Denver team. But the bottom line is they won 49 games and were only a few games from a top 4 seed. Now they did this basically playing with patched up starting 5 throughout the season. They didn't have a respectable back up at PG,no center, no bench and were missing our so called "3 point" ace (Peja)throughout the season. Even when he return he was not even of a ghost of what he was last season. In addition they were without West,Paul and Posey for several games. Yet despite all of this they were in the Western Conference race for a top 2 seed until the very end. They beat some pretty darn good teams this season. I guess many of you forget the Lakers win at the forum or the Cavaliers game at the arena. Again they did this without some of their starting five. We just ran out of gas and the injuries finally took their toll on us. The house should not be burned down. All it needs is some remodeling and a new contractor (coach). The foundation (Paul and West) is there. I know it sounds corny but it's true.

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Originally Posted by dvdman

After the smoke has cleared we really aren't that bad

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Yes, we are.

Bad teams don't win 49 games.
It's the equivalent of saying the Saints
are bad if they went 10-6 or 11-5 next season.
Come on folks wake up and smell the coffee. :)

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Originally Posted by GrandAdmiral

Yes, we are.

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Originally Posted by dvdman

Bad teams don't win 49 games.
It's the equivalent of saying the Saints
are bad if they went 10-6 or 11-5 next season.
Come on folks wake up and smell the coffee. :)

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Finally someone else speaking the same truth...


Few years ago many of us would have been happy with just a playoff berth, then we go crazy and go finish as the 2nd seed in the west and beat the mavs in the first round... now the fanbase has super high expectations.. Like you said 49 games is still a lot in the west.. Along with injuries.

No one can argue that lot needs to be done to improve this team, but to say that we are actually "bad" isn't true considering the circumstances.

I surely see what you are saying. After watching the last five games, it's amazing that they won 49 games.

No they weren't that bad. You don't win 49 games as a bad team--even with the bad finish & the swift playoff exit.

The bad showings have seemingly dwarfed the good showings they've had this season. People do forget that the 2-8 seeds were up for grabs in the final 2 weeks of the season. The Hornets did run out of gas though. We need a bench. We can't afford to go into next season without a plan for the 2nd unit. Next season will be win-or-you're-fired-time for Byron. We've got to pick up a decent player or 2 in the draft.

If the team didn't have a mega-meltdown at the end of the season, one might say that Byron did a better job this season than last. The team only won 7 less games. :)

It's not how you start, it's how you finish. This team sucks right now. Denial of this fact is, well, amazing.

We are indeed THAT bad.

Seriously, have we been watching the same playoff games?

We aren't that bad but we have lost that special something that makes you better than other teams of equal talent. I don't know when it happened exactly but this current roster, which is more talented than last year's roster, is just not together anymore.

I bet Shinn and company want to hold onto West and CP, and I seriously doubt we will see major moves. West and CP will be in every single trade rumor because everyone is looking at us to cherry pick, they figure Shinn is broke and we need to dump everyone. :hihi:

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Originally Posted by NYKF Hornet

we need to dump everyone. :hihi:

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Agreed (minus CP of course).

to me we really are not that bad either, we just need a little tweaking thats all, we dont need to bulldoze this team, we just need a legit back up point guard and center, maybe we can get that in the draft, we need to trade some of the dead weight we got on the bench, imo maybe ryan bowen, mo pete, melvin ely, devin brown, antonio danials.

To me we need to strengthen our bench, that is our main problem, we gotta work on our bench, we need better shooters, younger players, and we need our instant offense back(pargo)...........im done rambling

You lose by 58 points in a playoff game on your own home floor and you're not considered bad?

You guys do realize when your stars are healthy it's pretty easy for a team to make the playoffs? DX and CP were healthy for most of the season and we won 49 games, surprise, surprise. That is no great feat, the last month proved how bad this team is. I mean they just lost a playoff series by an avg. of 31 pts a game. They aren't that bad?! Get real.

Given all the injuries the team has faced this season, yes, squeaking out 49 wins is commendable but we clearly got exposed in this series. So much so that, in the future, if the offensive strategy for the Hornets remains as it is, every team will now know how to beat the Hornets handily. Whoever scouted the Hornets for Denver this series is a genius. Wait, scratch that. They're not a genius. Our offense is just that predictable. Seriously, if we can't get someone else on this team who can create his own shot, we're screwed. It's as simple as that. Byron obviously isn't going anywhere next year so our only hope to compete would be to find someone in the offseason, if at all possible, who can create their own shot and wouldn't need Chris to do everything for him.

A new GM and new coach, would do wonders for the players on our roster, except for TC.

The lost a playoff series by an avg of 31 points? Come on people....this current will not win 40 games this season..

Basically the logic here is: ''Let's ignore the last and most important month of basketball b/c the team won 49 games! hornets are teh awesoem!!11"

Pathetic.

this is the same type of crap we heard during the season when we were dropping those awful games to the Kings and Knicks. "so and so lost to them too, it's not just us." and "we're only 3 games back of our record from last year, it's not that bad!"

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Originally Posted by NIH

Basically the logic here is: ''Let's ignore the last and most important month of basketball b/c the team won 49 games! hornets are teh awesoem!!11"

Pathetic.

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Seems like the other prevailing logic here is: "See! We actually suck! See how much we lost by? Trade EVERYONE!!!!!! I TOLD YOU!!!! HA! You rose colored glasses wearing DIEHARDS!!!! WAKE UP! We suck this year, and will suck next year too!!!! I'M A REALIST!!!"

:huh:

No, that's my observations from the Hornets folding like a cheap tent during the most important time in the season. Good teams don't back into the playoffs and then lose by an NBA record in terms of avg. Due to injuries and age it's not going to get much better either.

/reality.

Then, wouldn't that make us average(above or belows notwithstanding)? Since the bad teams are lottery teams.

Or is that being unrealistic?

If the SOLID teams in the playoffs can steamroll us then we're nowhere close to where we need to be.....that's pretty bad. Being one of 16/30 teams to make the playoffs isn't some amazing accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by Hornet603

If the SOLID teams in the playoffs can steamroll us then we're nowhere close to where we need to be.....that's pretty bad. Being one of 16/30 teams to make the playoffs isn't some amazing accomplishment.

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Just curious, but coming into the playoffs, with hindsight flipped to "Off", where would the Hornets have fallen in a power ranking of those 16 teams? And I'm not talking about just the last 10 games before the playoffs, because then Portland would be #1.

I don't think anyone is ignoring the last month. No one is ignoring the fact that our team imploded towards the end of the season.
In the last few weeks of the season, the Hornets still had a chance to finish anywhere from 2-8 and finished 7th.

But to dismiss the fact that they DID win 49 games with all the injuries, is an injustice to the team. They made the playoffs and they got beat--pretty badly. I don't think the Hornets should be judged on 1 game. When you look at the season as a whole in context, the Hornets did an adequate job this season.

The win difference is only -7 from 07-08. A big part of the Hornets past success was a healthy roster. They weren't afforded that luxury this season.

I'm just as mad as the next person about losing by 58, but I'm not letting that block what this team managed to accomplish.

If they lost by 8, would the season be the "Failure" that some are saying it is?

Well technically, any season not resulting in a NBA Championship could be considered a failure.

But, the mindset that a total overhaul is needed wouldn't be so rampant in that situation because people would feel that we weren't that far behind the Nuggets.

Heres my thoughts, were not horrible, but were not good either. We are an average team.

The problem I see, which shouldnt be controversial, is that outside of CP3, the anchors of this team are only going to go downhill. TC has a lingering injury he will probably never recover from, West(while very good still) is not the youngest man out there. Posey is not the same man he was in Miami or even Boston. Peja is on the decline with a lingering back injury and Rasual has most likely peaked. And besides julian and maybe Armstrong, our bench has little promise or upside.

and all of this is wrapped in the fact that we have financial issues and contracts that no one will really want this year, so it hampers our ability to improve.

All these facts point to one conclusion, we are at this point an average team but only because we are lucky enough to have an allstar and one of the best players in the league making up for it. So because of that, we will probably always remain an above 500 team thanks to CP3.

But if this team ever wants to sniff a championship we are going to need a fairly substantial overhaul or a heck of a lot of luck that other teams have severe injuries that happen at just the right time for us to capitalize on.

this my honest assessment

They accomplished 49 wins and a 7th seed, mainly because of CP3 and DX being healthy.

My comparison is almost like the Saints the season after the 06 run. Everyone thought they were one or two pieces away. But it turned out they were much further than they thought. it seems to be the same situation with the Hornets.

The problem I see, and what makes me optimistic about the Saints, is that they have a Coach that gets the most out of there players, and isnt scared to make changes (Gregg Williams), and is a good game planner and executioner. A Front Office and scouting department that makes pretty high quality moves and ownership, that while not lavish, is willing to spend to win. My fear is that i just see none of that in this current Hornets regime which makes me scared that the Hornets will just linger and not improve for a long time.

The apparent difference between the Saints and Hornets is that while the Saints have a respected, capologiest(is that even a word?) as their GM in Mickey Loomis. I'm not sure Bower is that good of a talent evaluator, and might not be a good wheeler and dealer. And it certainly doesn't look like he's working our cap room well.

the saints have finished the last two season 7-9 and 8-8. they needed to revamp their defense and failed at making significant changes until this season in which the jury is still out. it took them two years to do that. the situations are different. the hornets being over the lux tax is not being cheap. they spent money on players, just not wisely. the way contracts are handled differ from the nfl and the nba which factor in how you get better. if you have buyers remorse in the nba while making bad decisions you're stuck. in the nfl you have more wiggle room getting rid of under achieving players.

Give me the Saints FO over the Hornets any day.

It is going to be a mystery next season.

I keep remembering how good we looked at the beggining of the season. That team hustled on both ends, and our players didn't look like former shades of themselves. This was a season of atriction, and our guys came out the regular season grinder worn out and banged up, due to the weakness of our bench and injuries.

But, if you look at the core, I would put it up against most teams if we were healthy. THe question is, can that happen ever again? I don't think so with Tyson and Peja. That is why it is time to re-tool the team. It sucks b/c the potential was there for greatness, but it wasn't to be.

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Originally Posted by JKM

A new GM and new coach, would do wonders for the players on our roster, except for TC.

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Man, you are a broken record. A broken record of Kenny G.

Get this team a backup center (Diop'ish), backup point guard (Farmar'ish), and the greatest need of alll.....a STARTING SHOOTING GUARD! This is realistically all they can hope to accomplish this off-season before more major moves in 2010.

This won't guarantee a championship next year, but a definite top 4 seed.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

My comparison is almost like the Saints the season after the 06 run. Everyone thought they were one or two pieces away. But it turned out they were much further than they thought. it seems to be the same situation with the Hornets.

The problem I see, and what makes me optimistic about the Saints, is that they have a Coach that gets the most out of there players, and isnt scared to make changes (Gregg Williams), and is a good game planner and executioner. A Front Office and scouting department that makes pretty high quality moves and ownership, that while not lavish, is willing to spend to win. My fear is that i just see none of that in this current Hornets regime which makes me scared that the Hornets will just linger and not improve for a long time.

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Please don't say Sean Payton gets the most out of his players and is a good game planner. Must I remind you of the NFCCG? The classic end-around? The constant 5 yard pass plays 60 times per game?

Let's not forget the waisted 1st round pick on offense when the needs were screaming for defense.

The Saints have been given time to correct their mistakes without the fan vitriol for some reason. Let's grant the same to the Hornets. The sky is not falling on a 50 win team.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Please don't say Sean Payton gets the most out of his players and is a good game planner. Must I remind you of the NFCCG? The classic end-around? The constant 5 yard pass plays 60 times per game?

Let's not forget the waisted 1st round pick on offense when the needs were screaming for defense.

The Saints have been given time to correct their mistakes without the fan vitriol for some reason. Let's grant the same to the Hornets. The sky is not falling on a 50 win team.

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And must I remind you of him dominating his mentor to the tune of 42-17 and outdueling Andy Reid twice? Yeah, he's made mistakes, but what young coach doesn't? He doesn't get the most out of his players? Who was Lance Moore before Payton and his offense? Who was Pierre Thomas? Don't even think that it's all Brees that makes those players that good. And you know...he does kind of orchestrate the #1 offense in the NFL. >_>

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

Seems like the other prevailing logic here is: "See! We actually suck! See how much we lost by? Trade EVERYONE!!!!!! I TOLD YOU!!!! HA! You rose colored glasses wearing DIEHARDS!!!! WAKE UP! We suck this year, and will suck next year too!!!! I'M A REALIST!!!"

:huh:

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This is flat out ridiculous. This stuff isn't going on here. Apparently, you are a glass is half-full kind of guy. That's great. Be positive if you want. Neekie's post on page 1 I think sums things up quite well. People are willing to recognize the regular season accomplishments while also taking the team to task for what happened in the last 4-6 weeks or so of the season. So let's keep some semblance of perspective here, please. This isn't a follow-the-team blindly kind of board. Sorry.

Speaking of the Saints, they just drafted a punter. :hihi:

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Originally Posted by West Coast Hornet

This is flat out ridiculous. This stuff isn't going on here. Apparently, you are a glass is half-full kind of guy. That's great. Be positive if you want. Neekie's post on page 1 I think sums things up quite well. People are willing to recognize the regular season accomplishments while also taking the team to task for what happened in the last 4-6 weeks or so of the season. So let's keep some semblance of perspective here, please. This isn't a follow-the-team blindly kind of board. Sorry.

Speaking of the Saints, they just drafted a punter. :hihi:

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But by the same token, some are acting as if we need to cut everyone and fire everyone. There needs to be a middle ground.

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Originally Posted by West Coast Hornet

Speaking of the Saints, they just drafted a punter. :hihi:

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just to reiterate, they drafted a punter in the 5th round and traded up and with a pick next year for him! :shakehd2:

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

And must I remind you of him dominating his mentor to the tune of 42-17 and outdueling Andy Reid twice? Yeah, he's made mistakes, but what young coach doesn't? He doesn't get the most out of his players? Who was Lance Moore before Payton and his offense? Who was Pierre Thomas? Don't even think that it's all Brees that makes those players that good. And you know...he does kind of orchestrate the #1 offense in the NFL. >_>

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Dallas was not a good team that year. Not a good comparison to make. How'd he do against Baltimore? Tennessee? Tampa Bay? Any top 5 defense?

D. West was not an all-star before Scott arrived. If Peirre Thomas makes the pro-bowl this season, there is your comparison.

Secondly, if you can "orchestrate" a #1 offense at the expense of the defense (he is the HEAD COACH, not offensive coodinator), that doesn't speak well. The Saints have gotten "Denver'd" by many teams for that reason. Remember opening night against the Colts?

My main point is that the Hornets need to tweak their roster just like the Saints and deserve the time to do so. It's the Hornets that have made the playoffs and finished WELL above .500, which cannot be said for the Saints.

They know what they need to fix and they will find a way to get it done. If the losing, mediocre football team is given time, then definitely the winning, above average basketball one deserves the same.

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Originally Posted by HORNETSFAN

But by the same token, some are acting as if we need to cut everyone and fire everyone. There needs to be a middle ground.

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I said it in jest, for example. Why? Because it was just a disastrous series and a disastrous end to the season. I think it is legit to be concerned about almost everyone on the roster, what they bring, what's going on with them, and what is their future. IMHO, the org has some serious re-tooling to do, but I realize they are limited in what they can probably do. Above all else, I think a lot of just don't want to see more of the same next year.

To echo what WCH said, this team will grow stale to me if moves are not made. I don't want to see the same one dimensional players, mistakes, motivational issues, etc. being at the forefront next year. I really don't.

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Originally Posted by geaux hornets

just to reiterate, they drafted a punter in the 5th round and traded up and with a pick next year for him! :shakehd2:

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They gave up a 7th that probably wouldn't have made the team and another 5th round pick. If this guy can beat out Pakulak, all is gravy. If he doesn't, they release him back to the wild. Wouldn't be the first time the Saints traded for someone then cut him a few months later.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Dallas was not a good team that year. Not a good comparison to make. How'd he do against Baltimore? Tennessee? Tampa Bay? Any top 5 defense?

D. West was not an all-star before Scott arrived. If Peirre Thomas makes the pro-bowl this season, there is your comparison.

Secondly, if you can "orchestrate" a #1 offense at the expense of the defense (he is the HEAD COACH, not offensive coodinator), that doesn't speak well. The Saints have gotten "Denver'd" by many teams for that reason. Remember opening night against the Colts?

My main point is that the Hornets need to tweak their roster just like the Saints and deserve the time to do so. It's the Hornets that have made the playoffs and finished WELL above .500, which cannot be said for the Saints.

They know what they need to fix and they will find a way to get it done. If the losing, mediocre football team is given time, then definitely the winning, above average basketball one deserves the same.

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Pierre Thomas averages about 4.8 ypc. If he can keep that up and gets the carries, he'll be a Pro-Bowler.

Payton isn't the offensive coordinator? When did this happen? Yes, being the head coach means defense should be just as important to him as his offense, but only a few coaches can coach up an offense and a defense, and when they do rarely are any one of them very good. Payton is still an offensive guy primarily. He's never had any experience coaching a defense. So, to take care of the D, he brought in Gregg Williams. A guy who has three times orchestrated a top 5 defense with 3 different teams. And now the Saints' defense is his to mold and shape.

But, anyway as far as the Hornets go, I'm all with you. We need to do some roster changing, and we aren't bottom feeders. It won't take much to get this team on track again, no matter what the score differential was. Coaching change? I'm not against it, but I'm not really for it either. GM change? I'm definitely leaning towards "Yes".


And also, I don't follow blindly, but up to that point, that's just how it seemed things were going. Like what'shisname said, there didn't seem to be any middle ground being upheld, no one saying we were just average and not bad...

Not turning this into a Sean Payton discussion but.........

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

And you know...he does kind of orchestrate the #1 offense in the NFL. >_>

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Agreed. But with the post you were replying to :

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Must I remind you of the NFCCG?

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This..

I don't think I will EVER EVER ever EVER ENVNERLNELNL!N!! ... you get the point ... ever..

Forgive SP for NOT running Deuce more in that game, it was a ridiculous amount of pass plays to runs in a bone chilling cold.

Anyway! Back on topic.

I definitely agree that something needs to be done this offseason, I don't think many of us aren't in agreement. I will however, not grow stale on this team if next year turns out to not have a huge rotation of players, it's not like they have much to work with this offseason unfortunately. :help:

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Originally Posted by NYKF Hornet

We aren't that bad but we have lost that special something that makes you better than other teams of equal talent. I don't know when it happened exactly but this current roster, which is more talented than last year's roster, is just not together anymore.

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no, we're better than teams of equal talent, the problem is we don't have much talent