Can We Actually Move Away from Zion after 2024-2025 Season?

Remainder of his contract is now non-guaranteed?

Source: wwltv.com

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...1-ffb5db7360c4

That’s probably what they would prefer to do if it came to it. Especially, so they can sign Trey

Why would you just cut him? That seems ridiculous at this point. It's fine as a fallback plan in case of catastrophe, but we're pretty far away from that.

They won't. They would only do that if he suffers a major injury.

They are better off trading him for scraps than waive him for nothing (which will never happen).

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Originally Posted by donato

Why would you just cut him? That seems ridiculous at this point. It's fine as a fallback plan in case of catastrophe, but we're pretty far away from that.

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It is a great clause in case he suffers a catastrophic injury, but we are obviously not going to cut him just to save money.

Yeah they aren’t going to cut him at all. Lol. That shouldn’t even be the question.

This is why I, and many others, have said that Zion's contract isn't a huge deal. He's not going to be the limiting factor in future money management. Either he's playing well, and then he's worth paying, or he's not and his contract is easily manageable.

The team isn't going to cut him. Thus far this season he's been healthy, the team is winning games, etc. They won't cut him and they shouldn't cut him.

It's non-story. People have been reporting that Zion's contract has these kinds of insurances built into it for literally years.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

This is why I, and many others, have said that Zion's contract isn't a huge deal. He's not going to be the limiting factor in future money management. Either he's playing well, and then he's worth paying, or he's not and his contract is easily manageable.

The team isn't going to cut him. Thus far this season he's been healthy, the team is winning games, etc. They won't cut him and they shouldn't cut him.

It's non-story. People have been reporting that Zion's contract has these kinds of insurances built into it for literally years.

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Which makes it comical that this guy literally fumbled his own bag. It not being guaranteed probably makes him much more tradeable. Someone will take a flyer and if don’t work then they can cut bait.

Zion is not the problem. When you have this many stars and this much depth in the team, the coaching is clearly the problem. I would love Zion to expand his game and add to his reportoire to avoid getting cheesed out of the game, but we tend to just take him out when that is happening anyways. And we still flop. Massive questions have to be asked of Willy. For instance, why is Hawkins all of a sudden disappearing from the team? In a team that?s biggest need is shooters, and he is a high volume good clip guy, why is he being factored out? Defense is important, but you know what is infinitely more important in the regular season? OFFENSE. Not going stale. Bad possessions turn into bad defense. If you make your buckets, you put that much more pressure on the other team to keep up. You also allow yourselves to enter into half court defense. When we have bad possessions, there tends to be poor defense. Go figure. Willy is absolutely blowing it. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. Everyone is healthy. Let?s get on track.

This just shows me how the New Orleans local media are three steps behind in reporting sports. WWL-TV.com and Nola.com are breaking this as a "STOP THE PRESSES" story, when most of the educated basketball minds that post on this forum state it's a non-story.

You would thing journalists who are paid for their work would at least do some research.

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Originally Posted by davehornet

This just shows me how the New Orleans local media are three steps behind in reporting sports. WWL-TV.com and Nola.com are breaking this as a "STOP THE PRESSES" story, when most of the educated basketball minds that post on this forum state it's a non-story.

You would thing journalists who are paid for their work would at least do some research.

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Makes me think the timing is for a reason. All of us already knew he had clauses, but now they want to bring it to the center of attention.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Zion is not the problem. When you have this many stars and this much depth in the team, the coaching is clearly the problem. I would love Zion to expand his game and add to his reportoire to avoid getting cheesed out of the game, but we tend to just take him out when that is happening anyways. And we still flop. Massive questions have to be asked of Willy. For instance, why is Hawkins all of a sudden disappearing from the team? In a team that?s biggest need is shooters, and he is a high volume good clip guy, why is he being factored out? Defense is important, but you know what is infinitely more important in the regular season? OFFENSE. Not going stale. Bad possessions turn into bad defense. If you make your buckets, you put that much more pressure on the other team to keep up. You also allow yourselves to enter into half court defense. When we have bad possessions, there tends to be poor defense. Go figure. Willy is absolutely blowing it. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. Everyone is healthy. Let?s get on track.

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Well I can’t disagree at all. Willie is just not head coach material.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Zion is not the problem. When you have this many stars and this much depth in the team, the coaching is clearly the problem. I would love Zion to expand his game and add to his reportoire to avoid getting cheesed out of the game, but we tend to just take him out when that is happening anyways. And we still flop. Massive questions have to be asked of Willy. For instance, why is Hawkins all of a sudden disappearing from the team? In a team that?s biggest need is shooters, and he is a high volume good clip guy, why is he being factored out? Defense is important, but you know what is infinitely more important in the regular season? OFFENSE. Not going stale. Bad possessions turn into bad defense. If you make your buckets, you put that much more pressure on the other team to keep up. You also allow yourselves to enter into half court defense. When we have bad possessions, there tends to be poor defense. Go figure. Willy is absolutely blowing it. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. Everyone is healthy. Let?s get on track.

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Agreed. We wanted to put shooters around Zion, but he and Trey/Hawkins hardly play together.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Agreed. We wanted to put shooters around Zion, but he and Trey/Hawkins hardly play together.

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Trey plays fewer of his minutes with Zion than with any other rotation player. That's not speculation or eye test, it is literally facts.

A huge portion of having Zion is surrounding him with shooters on offense and letting that offense go nuclear. Willie Green actually subs Zion our for Trey, rather than playing them together. Most of Trey's lineups are him as the only shooter - occasionally he'll be on the court with CJ. Meanwhile, instead of pairing Zion with Trey, Zion gets played with Dyson, Herb, Naji, and Zeller and asked to create offense from a lineup that is exclusively designed to defend, that opponents don't have to care about.

It's an appalling coaching system on offense. The team has enough depth and talent that we're winning games anyway, but the offense is almost designed to hamstring its most efficient players. Imagine what it could be if Green actually coached the team he has instead of coaching the team he wished he had.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Zion is not the problem. When you have this many stars and this much depth in the team, the coaching is clearly the problem. I would love Zion to expand his game and add to his reportoire to avoid getting cheesed out of the game, but we tend to just take him out when that is happening anyways. And we still flop. Massive questions have to be asked of Willy. For instance, why is Hawkins all of a sudden disappearing from the team? In a team that?s biggest need is shooters, and he is a high volume good clip guy, why is he being factored out? Defense is important, but you know what is infinitely more important in the regular season? OFFENSE. Not going stale. Bad possessions turn into bad defense. If you make your buckets, you put that much more pressure on the other team to keep up. You also allow yourselves to enter into half court defense. When we have bad possessions, there tends to be poor defense. Go figure. Willy is absolutely blowing it. There are no ifs ands or buts about it. Everyone is healthy. Let?s get on track.

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And with Hawk , he got a decent bit of playing time and looked pretty good. So WG pretty much benches him for the ridiculous in season crap and has not given him hardly any playing time stunting his development and now he off course. It's time to sack WG and go with Borrego
Plus the lack of development in Z is atrocious, He has not developed a short jumper or any other weapons in his bag

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Originally Posted by djrnno

And with Hawk , he got a decent bit of playing time and looked pretty good. So WG pretty much benches him for the ridiculous in season crap and has not given him hardly any playing time stunting his development and now he off course. It's time to sack WG and go with Borrego
Plus the lack of development in Z is atrocious, He has not developed a short jumper or any other weapons in his bag

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The thing about Hawkins is that he is, far and away, without any close second, the worst defender on the Pelicans. Eye test bares it out (he competes, but is ineffective) and the advanced stats make it abundantly clear.

To a defensively minded coach like Green, that's basically admitting you're unplayable.

A better coach would realise that actually, Hawkins worked well in multi-shooter lineups specifically because the scoring was so good that it meant we basically never had to defend in transition, and playing in the half-court was easier on him. Those lineups were some of our most impactful early in the season, when Hawkins was getting minutes with Matt Ryan and Jonas.

But that's a better coach. We don't have that. We got Green.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The thing about Hawkins is that he is, far and away, without any close second, the worst defender on the Pelicans. Eye test bares it out (he competes, but is ineffective) and the advanced stats make it abundantly clear.

To a defensively minded coach like Green, that's basically admitting you're unplayable.

A better coach would realise that actually, Hawkins worked well in multi-shooter lineups specifically because the scoring was so good that it meant we basically never had to defend in transition, and playing in the half-court was easier on him. Those lineups were some of our most impactful early in the season, when Hawkins was getting minutes with Matt Ryan and Jonas.

But that's a better coach. We don't have that. We got Green.

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Dude could you imagine if they just surrounded Jonas, BI, and Zion with shooters at all times. Defense wouldn’t need to be needed at all. Lol. I honestly think Jonas can get his own bucket as easy as any one of them. He has become an offensive nightmare for any one who guards him.

[QUOTE=Pelicanidae;1604190]The thing about Hawkins is that he is, far and away, without any close second, the worst defender on the Pelicans. Eye test bares it out (he competes, but is ineffective) and the advanced stats make it abundantly clear.

To a defensively minded coach like Green, that's basically admitting you're unplayable.

A better coach would realise that actually, Hawkins worked well in multi-shooter lineups specifically because the scoring was so good that it meant we basically never had to defend in transition, and playing in the half-court was easier on him. Those lineups were some of our most impactful early in the season, when Hawkins was getting minutes with Matt Ryan and Jonas.

But that's a better coach. We don't have that. We got Green.[/

If Willy and Dennis Allen were the same color I'd feel like they were the same person. Both are weak milquetoast coaches that are in over their heads

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Originally Posted by Fedupfan

Dude could you imagine if they just surrounded Jonas, BI, and Zion with shooters at all times. Defense wouldn’t need to be needed at all. Lol. I honestly think Jonas can get his own bucket as easy as any one of them. He has become an offensive nightmare for any one who guards him.

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It's why I support benching Herb for Trey.

Not because I dislike Herb. He's fantastic.

But I think the starting lineup is fatally lacking in shooting, and it's stifling everyone. Nothing on Herb, everything to do with lineup construction.

Edit: Just saw these numbers which I think add some context to my point.

Pels current starters are a +5.7 in the first half of games. -16.8 in the second half.

Why? Outscored opponents by 169 points total in first halves. Outscored by opponents by 113 points in the second half. From top 5 in the first 24 minutes to bottom 5 in the second.

Simply put: teams lose because we have more talent than them until they adjust at halftime to the fact that our starting lineup can't shoot. So they come out in the second half, don't bother defending the perimeter (note, this is often when CJ starts hitting shots) but defend the paint, our offense dies because we have no spacing and they go on a run. We lose 3rd quarters a lot, as we all know.

Need more offense. More spacing. More shooting. Start Trey.

Does the non-guarantee extend to the next team if he's traded?

Z lost his guaranteed because he didn't feel like himself. Thats hilarious . He's done this to himself.

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Originally Posted by Pierre Pelican

Z lost his guaranteed because he didn't feel like himself. Thats hilarious . He's done this to himself.

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He lost nothing because they're not going to waive him. The benefit of the flexibility in the contract is in case of a serious, career-altering injury, not just for missing games in general.

Sacrificing offense to try and build a defensive identity is not the play. We are in cap hell soon. We likely will not have a better roster soon. It is the regular season. Not the postseason. As long as we stay steady offensively, we will be okay. There is no reason Hawkins can’t see minutes off the bench against subs. There is no reason not to pair Zion and shooters on the floor. Willie will run the team into the ground if he doesn’t wise up.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Sacrificing offense to try and build a defensive identity is not the play. We are in cap hell soon. We likely will not have a better roster soon. It is the regular season. Not the postseason. As long as we stay steady offensively, we will be okay. There is no reason Hawkins can’t see minutes off the bench against subs. There is no reason not to pair Zion and shooters on the floor. Willie will run the team into the ground if he doesn’t wise up.

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100% agree.

The fact is, offense is defense to a large extent. You can get away with a mediocre lineup defensively if the offense is so potent that you never have to play in transition. That's one of the reason that Zion-led lineups have historically been a plus defensively: not because Zion is some core defensive piece (he's not) but because under SVG and during last year's Point Zion games, the offense was so flames that every defensive possession was played in the half-court and that covers for a lot of issues.

You need some defense. You're not going to win games reliably with 0 defense. But top 5 offense, top 15 defense is a lot better than top 5 defense, top 15 offense.

I'd take paolo banchero in a straight up trade.

Or Adebayo.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

This is why I, and many others, have said that Zion's contract isn't a huge deal. He's not going to be the limiting factor in future money management. Either he's playing well, and then he's worth paying, or he's not and his contract is easily manageable.

The team isn't going to cut him. Thus far this season he's been healthy, the team is winning games, etc. They won't cut him and they shouldn't cut him.

It's non-story. People have been reporting that Zion's contract has these kinds of insurances built into it for literally years.

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This is pretty short-sighted of you; it's a huge deal.

If he's not playing up to his contract, he's overpaid; thus hamstringing the team's roster financially

-or-

We waive him and have nothing to show for the first overall pick of the 2019 Draft.

....AND YOU SAY IT'S NOT A HUGE DEAL!!!!

The only chance we have after five years of this roller coaster nonsense is if he decides to address all of his on-the-court issues, his health concerns (including his bio-mechanic limitations), expands his schtick, and matures all at once. Then he has to show signs of the the player you claim he is.

As you know, I don't see it, but, certainly, hope that he (and you) proves me wrong.

DEFENSE...DEFENSE...DEFENSE!!!

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Originally Posted by WhyHornetsWhy

I'd take paolo banchero in a straight up trade.

Or Adebayo.

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Said the exact same thing about Banchero a few weeks ago.

Don't we have this same conversation about Willie every year?

He will figure it out. Unfortunately, it won't be until February.

But so far we are doing well with injuries so if he does indeed figure it out by February we should be in a good place by the end of the season with decent health.

Remember that game once when Willie was sick and the team looked amazing? Small sample but man, good times. Lol

Bottom Line on Mr. Williamson...

He is seen by some as a potential Hall of Famer who possesses a transformative game that will change the landscape of the NBA for generations to come. Then, there are some of us entrenched in reality who has seen five years of 'flash or crash' highlight/lowlight snippets that has done absolutely nothing to advance (a) his game...or (b) and more importantly if you are a Pelicans Fan, (b) the team.

The horrid truth is that these diametrically opposing, divergent views of Mr. Williamson run parallel to one another, Bear in mind: parallel lines never intersect.

His supporters want to blame his failures on everything from the coaching...the training staff...the front office...referees...the makeup of players who surround him...his stepdad...and even some sleaze bunny with a staunch internet following. Others, of whom, admittedly, I am (surprise...surprise), simply want him to look into a mirror to see the source of his bane and then take account.

Can he be a serviceable NBA player? ABSOLUTELY!!!

Can he be the cornerstone of championship team? Five years of on the court 'elevator play', says, "NO WAY"!!!!

Candidly, I think this team possesses A future All Star who plays the 4...and it ain't Mr. Williamson.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Bottom Line on Mr. Williamson...

He is seen by some as a potential Hall of Famer who possesses a transformative game that will change the landscape of the NBA for generations to come. Then, there are some of us entrenched in reality who has seen five years of 'flash or crash' highlight/lowlight snippets that has done absolutely nothing to advance (a) his game...or (b) and more importantly if you are a Pelicans Fan, (b) the team.

The horrid truth is that these diametrically opposing, divergent views of Mr. Williamson run parallel to one another, Bear in mind: parallel lines never intersect.

His supporters want to blame his failures on everything from the coaching...the training staff...the front office...referees...the makeup of players who surround him...his stepdad...and even some sleaze bunny with a staunch internet following. Others, of whom, admittedly, I am (surprise...surprise), simply want him to look into a mirror to see the source of his bane and then take account.

Can he be a serviceable NBA player? ABSOLUTELY!!!

Can he be the cornerstone of championship team? Five years of on the court 'elevator play', says, "NO WAY"!!!!

Candidly, I think this team possesses A future All Star who plays the 4...and it ain't Mr. Williamson.

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I didn’t know you thought that highly of Robinson-Earl.

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Originally Posted by Fedupfan

I didn’t know you thought that highly of Robinson-Earl.

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LOL

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

100% agree.

The fact is, offense is defense to a large extent. You can get away with a mediocre lineup defensively if the offense is so potent that you never have to play in transition. That's one of the reason that Zion-led lineups have historically been a plus defensively: not because Zion is some core defensive piece (he's not) but because under SVG and during last year's Point Zion games, the offense was so flames that every defensive possession was played in the half-court and that covers for a lot of issues.

You need some defense. You're not going to win games reliably with 0 defense. But top 5 offense, top 15 defense is a lot better than top 5 defense, top 15 offense.

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You play to your strengths. We are stupid stacked offensively. BI, Zion and CJ are all undeniably all star caliber scorers. Trey and Jonas are also arguably allstar caliber scorers. Hawk is a very good scorer for a rookie and has had some really hot games early on in his career. You add Herb into that mix, and the only defensively inclined player is Herb. We have good defensive talent on the bench. But if you look at our top guys, it?s the offense that stands out. We are not a grindy team no matter how badly Willie wants us to be. We will win games by being a top offensive team that can play defense when necessary. We will not win as a defensive first team because we are not built that way.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

You play to your strengths. We are stupid stacked offensively. BI, Zion and CJ are all undeniably all star caliber scorers. Trey and Jonas are also arguably allstar caliber scorers. Hawk is a very good scorer for a rookie and has had some really hot games early on in his career. You add Herb into that mix, and the only defensively inclined player is Herb. We have good defensive talent on the bench. But if you look at our top guys, it?s the offense that stands out. We are not a grindy team no matter how badly Willie wants us to be. We will win games by being a top offensive team that can play defense when necessary. We will not win as a defensive first team because we are not built that way.

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The main reason I think Borrego should be the coach. He’s offensive minded and the roster is perfect for him.

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Originally Posted by Fedupfan

Dude could you imagine if they just surrounded Jonas, BI, and Zion with shooters at all times. Defense wouldn?t need to be needed at all. Lol. I honestly think Jonas can get his own bucket as easy as any one of them. He has become an offensive nightmare for any one who guards him.

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No Defense? What are we, the Pacers?

If we could even have two games back of the five we lost after having double digit leads, we'd be a half game out of the #2 seed. We're our own worst enemy.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

You play to your strengths. We are stupid stacked offensively. BI, Zion and CJ are all undeniably all star caliber scorers. Trey and Jonas are also arguably allstar caliber scorers. Hawk is a very good scorer for a rookie and has had some really hot games early on in his career. You add Herb into that mix, and the only defensively inclined player is Herb. We have good defensive talent on the bench. But if you look at our top guys, it?s the offense that stands out. We are not a grindy team no matter how badly Willie wants us to be. We will win games by being a top offensive team that can play defense when necessary. We will not win as a defensive first team because we are not built that way.

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Exactly. And frankly, that's how you have to be in the modern NBA. There are no teams holding anyone to 90 points a game anymore. It's not the 90s. The best defensive team in the NBA is the Wolves and they give up 108 points a game: that's the best defense anyone has played in more than 5 seasons, and it would have been a bottom 3 defense in 2004, when the Pistons won the chip. The 3pt revolution, the concessions refereeing has given to offensive playing, etc, have mean that you can't just strangle opposing offenses anymore.

Any lineup you put out there is going to get scored on. And we know that, because when we do go all-defense and play Herb, Dyson, Jose, Naji, what happens? We get scored on and lose leads. That's not a condemnation of those players, it's just the reality of the modern NBA.

We are a team built to score. As you point out, we have multiple all-star level scorers, arguably 5 of them. There are coaches out there that would kill to get that on their team. We have it and Green is avoiding using them together as much as possible. It's bizarre to the point of ridicule.

This team should average 120+ points a game. Easily. And funnily enough, when you look at our wins, we do. We win when we score.

Like I said, you can't ignore defense completely. You have to have some baseline competence. I agree with that argument. But sacrificing offense for defense is a fool's errand.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

You play to your strengths. We are stupid stacked offensively. BI, Zion and CJ are all undeniably all star caliber scorers. Trey and Jonas are also arguably allstar caliber scorers. Hawk is a very good scorer for a rookie and has had some really hot games early on in his career. You add Herb into that mix, and the only defensively inclined player is Herb. We have good defensive talent on the bench. But if you look at our top guys, it?s the offense that stands out. We are not a grindy team no matter how badly Willie wants us to be. We will win games by being a top offensive team that can play defense when necessary. We will not win as a defensive first team because we are not built that way.

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Then I respectfully suggest we will never be a consistent winner because offense IS NOT an every night (or every quarter) thing...but defense (to include limiting second shot opportunities by the opposition) can and should be.

In our case, thus far this season, our team is a textbook example that proves this sports axiom to be true. I mean, shouldn't 20 point leads be safe? Either our defense fails us or our offense wanes. In our case, often it's both.

Have you ever wondered why we are losing the third and fourth quarters this season? It's really simple. Our opponents clamp down on our offense after halftime and our defense (to include defensive rebounding) is paper-thin.

PELICANS OPPONENTS SCORING BY HALF

1st Quarter we are ranked 8th in the league allowing 27.4 points per game.
2nd Quarter we are ranked 1st in the league allowing 26.4 points per game. (this is the quarter we play those defensive lineups many bellyache about)
3rd Quarter we are ranked 23rd in the league allowing 30.5 points per game.
4th Quarter we are ranked 21st in the league allowing 29.2 points per game.

Meanwhile we score less in the second half than we do in the first (our fourth quarter being the worst -- 27.6 points per game).

That's why the norm in team sports is that champions play defense and also-rans can't or won't.

--AND--

Defense wins in the post-season 90% of the time.

DEFENSE...DEFENSE...DEFENSE!!!

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The best defensive team in the NBA is the Wolves and they give up 108 points a game: that's the best defense anyone has played in more than 5 seasons, and it would have been a bottom 3 defense in 2004, when the Pistons won the chip. The 3pt revolution, the concessions refereeing has given to offensive playing, etc, have mean that you can't just strangle opposing offenses anymore. .

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With all due respect, you make my case. The Wolves and Celtics are currently tied with the best records in the NBA. As you say the Wolves are the best defensive team in the NBA. Meanwhile the Celtics are ranked third. Defense wins, my friend.

DEFENSE...DEFENSE...DEFENSE!!!

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Originally Posted by As I See It

With all due respect, you make my case. The Wolves and Celtics are currently tied with the best records in the NBA. As you say the Wolves are the best defensive team in the NBA. Meanwhile the Celtics are ranked third. Defense wins, my friend.

DEFENSE...DEFENSE...DEFENSE!!!

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The Wolves defensive record is all well and good. We are not built like the Wolves. We are built like the Pelicans. We have different strengths and weaknesses. We should rarely if ever have a lull offensively.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

The Wolves defensive record is all well and good. We are not built like the Wolves. We are built like the Pelicans. We have different strengths and weaknesses. We should rarely if ever have a lull offensively.

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But we do. See second half scoring this year or how we close the games and then we'll talk.

Merry Christmas.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

But we do. See second half scoring this year or how we close the games and then we'll talk.

Merry Christmas.

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Teams score on us in the second half because we have lulls and are forced to defend in transition. That needs to be addressed. Defense in half court is what we should aim for and that comes with taking care of the ball and having good possessions.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Teams score on us in the second half because we have lulls and are forced to defend in transition. That needs to be addressed. Defense in half court is what we should aim for and that comes with taking care of the ball and having good possessions.

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Well then you agree with me...we need to play better defense (I'll add rebound defensively ...but that requires work and effort on the players' part. It's not bad coaching).

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Well then you agree with me...we need to play better defense (I'll add rebound defensively ...but that requires work and effort on the players' part. It's not bad coaching).

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Defense in the half court only comes if we play well offensively which is the point. Nothing wrong with defensive players and lineups. There is a time and a place. The majority of the time we should be lining up to be efficient offensively and force other teams to play us in the half court. As Dae said we need to be aiming for at least 120 a game. Force other teams to keep up and protect the leads we build. When we go limp offensively, the other team comes back and we lose.