Just wanna be heard.

How do I even start this.
I'm a bit scrambled with this post but will touch on what I meant to. Ok I think we have one of the best rosters in the NBA with a half decent bench. We have one of the best 3 point shooters in NBA history on the team (let that sink in), we have the most dominant player in the league on the team, we have a point guard with the potential to be a top 5 in this league, we have a center that's a rebounding juggernaut, and isoIngram who is our most complete player.

The bench- how did NAW fall completely out of rotation? It's mind boggling. Jax he should sit next to an assistant at all times on the bench he needs coaching, I think he worth the investment. JJ he needs a different type of green light, idk why we don't make defenses work by running him off off screens like Ray Allen and Rip. That would open up such much more for Zion and Iso.

Lonzo- I've come to grips knowing he would never be a vocal leader, but I would really love for him to make defenses worry about him being a inside threat. He had to start attacking the paint and look to score.

Bledsoe- I just don't see the fit

IsoIngram- everytime he gets the ball it's a instant clear out, I seen him get frustrated with teammates trying to set picks, the team needs some structure.

Rotation- this is a young team let them run especially if they're hot. It seems that Zion and Iso don't mesh well while on the court together.

Defense- we keep getting beat the same way every game, this is the NBA in the Stephen Curry era you can't leave anybody open 1-5 from 3 you can't do it and win games.

I hear you.

I agree with parts of this, but I have one big disagreement.

We flat out do not have one of the best rosters in the NBA.

Let's go through them:

Lonzo: Wouldn't start on most good teams, would be a better bench piece
Bledsoe: Can be good but his mentality is a waste and his effort is nonexistent on a poor team, completely different player.
Ingram: Really solid player, would start on the majority of teams (hurt by position here, lots of top top tier SFs)
Zion: Really solid player, would start on pretty much all teams (a few exceptions here and there)
Adams: Really solid player, would start on most teams in the league, but clearly not on a few, particular the best teams

Bench:
Redick: Washed
Hart: Decent bench piece
Hernangomez: Not a mainstay on any NBA roster for a reason
Kira: Promising but still not there, clearly
NAW: Incredibly inconsistent, shows promise but again, not even close to being there
Jax: Read the above two summaries
Wenyen Gabriel: Not an NBA player
Sindarius Thornwell: Not an NBA player
Nicolo Melli: Not an NBA player
Naji Marshall: Not an NBA player
Will Magnay: Not an NBA player.

So of the 16 players on our team (counting the 2 ways) we have:

- 3 NBA starters

Compare that to a team which does have one of the best rosters in the NBA like the Jazz, who have 6 starter calibre players, the 6MOY, and another 3 solid bench pieces, and we suddenly look very very frail.

We're not a deep team. Not yet, at least.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I agree with parts of this, but I have one big disagreement.

We flat out do not have one of the best rosters in the NBA.

Let's go through them:

Lonzo: Wouldn't start on most good teams, would be a better bench piece
Bledsoe: Can be good but his mentality is a waste and his effort is nonexistent on a poor team, completely different player.
Ingram: Really solid player, would start on the majority of teams (hurt by position here, lots of top top tier SFs)
Zion: Really solid player, would start on pretty much all teams (a few exceptions here and there)
Adams: Really solid player, would start on most teams in the league, but clearly not on a few, particular the best teams

Bench:
Redick: Washed
Hart: Decent bench piece
Hernangomez: Not a mainstay on any NBA roster for a reason
Kira: Promising but still not there, clearly
NAW: Incredibly inconsistent, shows promise but again, not even close to being there
Jax: Read the above two summaries
Wenyen Gabriel: Not an NBA player
Sindarius Thornwell: Not an NBA player
Nicolo Melli: Not an NBA player
Naji Marshall: Not an NBA player
Will Magnay: Not an NBA player.

So of the 16 players on our team (counting the 2 ways) we have:

- 3 NBA starters

Compare that to a team which does have one of the best rosters in the NBA like the Jazz, who have 6 starter calibre players, the 6MOY, and another 3 solid bench pieces, and we suddenly look very very frail.

We're not a deep team. Not yet, at least.

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There is enough talent to competently compete in this league, but its overshadowed by what we lack between the ears. We simply aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Ingram: Really solid player, would start on the majority of teams (hurt by position here, lots of top top tier SFs)

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Curious. Which teams do you think Ingram wouldn't start. Some of the "SF" teams would shift positions around I'm sure to get him in the starting lineup. So what's your list?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Zion: Really solid player, would start on pretty much all teams (a few exceptions here and there)

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Same. Which teams with Zion on the roster aren't starting him?

The talent we have is horribly inconsistent. Potential, yeah, sure plenty of it. There's loads to be excited about but on a given night there's very few guys you can rely on their effort and that's why we are what we are. A maddening team you have no idea how it will perform on any given night.

The lack of high basketball iq is so worrisome. I'm still hopeful that it's more a youth situation. It's constant when JJ is out there he's coaching the guys up defensively but our rotations are horrific. We would be best suited to get a really smart defensive stopping vet on the team to help during practices, in plane rides, etc.. coaches can only help so much. The best players often point to mentors they had as players that took them under their wings as to when their games ascended.. need more of that.

I think we already have one really smart defensive vet, Steven Adams, and he is fully engaged in imparting his knowledge to the young bigs and leading by example. Bledsoe could be that too but if he's not putting in the effort himself who is going to listen ?

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Originally Posted by donato

Same. Which teams with Zion on the roster aren't starting him?

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Lakers aren't starting Zion over AD, and when AD plays the 5 they aren't starting him over Lebron. They're probably not going to then start him at the 3, though I suppose it's possible.

Maybe a better thing to say would be that he doesn't just slot in as a starter on every team, there would have to be some fairly heavy adjustments.

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Originally Posted by KoMikaera

I think we already have one really smart defensive vet, Steven Adams, and he is fully engaged in imparting his knowledge to the young bigs and leading by example. Bledsoe could be that too but if he's not putting in the effort himself who is going to listen ?

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I think the problem is that no matter how good one individual defender is, one guy can't be a defense all by themselves. I mean, we're the Pelicans, we had both Jrue Holiday and Anthony Davis at the same time and our defense was routinely mediocre to terrible, we know that.

Adams is absolutely a really solid defender who plays with intelligence but he's but in bad positions and isn't given the support he needs to make the impact he's capable of.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think the problem is that no matter how good one individual defender is, one guy can't be a defense all by themselves. I mean, we're the Pelicans, we had both Jrue Holiday and Anthony Davis at the same time and our defense was routinely mediocre to terrible, we know that.

Adams is absolutely a really solid defender who plays with intelligence but he's but in bad positions and isn't given the support he needs to make the impact he's capable of.

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I agree. I was just defending Adams from an inference by someone else that he's not teaching defence to the youngsters. Of course it's gonna take a lot more than that to fix the team's defensive woes.

I think it's fair to say that Zion would start for EVERY team in the league by hook or by crook. I also think it's fair to say that EVERY team in the league starting Zion would be weaker defensively for doing so.

Defense is this team's biggest issue

If they could just defend a little more they would be a playoff tean

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I agree with parts of this, but I have one big disagreement.

We flat out do not have one of the best rosters in the NBA.

Let's go through them:

Lonzo: Wouldn't start on most good teams, would be a better bench piece
Bledsoe: Can be good but his mentality is a waste and his effort is nonexistent on a poor team, completely different player.
Ingram: Really solid player, would start on the majority of teams (hurt by position here, lots of top top tier SFs)
Zion: Really solid player, would start on pretty much all teams (a few exceptions here and there)
Adams: Really solid player, would start on most teams in the league, but clearly not on a few, particular the best teams

Bench:
Redick: Washed
Hart: Decent bench piece
Hernangomez: Not a mainstay on any NBA roster for a reason
Kira: Promising but still not there, clearly
NAW: Incredibly inconsistent, shows promise but again, not even close to being there
Jax: Read the above two summaries
Wenyen Gabriel: Not an NBA player
Sindarius Thornwell: Not an NBA player
Nicolo Melli: Not an NBA player
Naji Marshall: Not an NBA player
Will Magnay: Not an NBA player.

So of the 16 players on our team (counting the 2 ways) we have:

- 3 NBA starters

Compare that to a team which does have one of the best rosters in the NBA like the Jazz, who have 6 starter calibre players, the 6MOY, and another 3 solid bench pieces, and we suddenly look very very frail.

We're not a deep team. Not yet, at least.

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The Jazz are an outlier for anyone. I think many winning teams compare more closely to us talent wise. I think the Lakers are a decent example, a similar talent mold to us.

As far as offensive and defensive efficiency, the Nets show you can at least win the way we play, but we don't.

I think it's just youth. We are relying the most on young guys still finding their way. We don't know how to finish games. We don't know what works. We don't have the mental fortitude to stop a snowball effect against us. We need demonstrated ability to draw from. Right now they are just learning what not to do. A field general that was trusted and controling everything would be the best quick fix I could think of.

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Originally Posted by Stalwart385

The Jazz are an outlier for anyone. I think many winning teams compare more closely to us talent wise.

As far as offensive and defensive efficiency, the Nets show you can at least win the way we play, but we don't.

I think it's just youth. We are relying the most on young guys still finding their way. We don't know how to finish games. We don't know what works. We don't have the mental fortitude to stop a snowball effect against us. We need demonstrated ability to draw from. Right now they are just learning what not to do. A field general that was trusted and controling everything would be the best quick fix I could think of.

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Since acquiring Harden, the Nets are 10-6, which is a good record but hardly standout, and their talent level at the top is so much higher than ours. They may not have more top 50 players than us, but they have 3 top 20 players and we have zero. That's a huge huge difference.

I absolutely agree that part of our problem is youth, but it's precisely that youth that means you can't say we have one of the best rosters in the NBA, in my view. That youth impacts Ingram, Zion, Kira, Lonzo, NAW, Jax, and to a lesser extent Hart also. That's basically half the team, and well over half the actual rotation. Maybe in 3 years time, if everyone matures well and Ingram's managed to polish some of his flaws and Zion's defense has caught up like we hope it does and Kira has panned out, etc, you'll be able to say we're one of the better/deeper rosters in the league but that day is not today.

This comparison also works if you compare us to any of the top teams in the league, honestly.

Clippers give heavy minutes to, or start, 5 top 50 players, two of which are both top 15 (PG13 and Kawhi).
Lakers are a bit more normal, they probably only have about 3 starters as well (maybe 2 more fringe starters, I guess, if you're being generous) but one of their starters is arguably the greatest player on the face of the planet and one of the others is another top 10 player.
Bucks start Giannis, Jrue, and Middleton, any one of which would immediately our best 2 way player, and they back it up with legitimate depth in PatConnaughton, Torrey Craig, and Donte Divincenzo.

Philadelphia's starting 5 of Simmons/Curry/Green/Harris/Embiid contains more top talent than our entire roster.

So when you say that we have one of the best rosters in the entire league, these (along with Utah) are the rosters you're in competition with. And we are not close, in my view.

Now go ahead and tell us how many of the 16 games the Nets had all 3 guys...since you information is always fair and unbiased so others can form a full.opinion

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Since acquiring Harden, the Nets are 10-6, which is a good record but hardly standout, and their talent level at the top is so much higher than ours. They may not have more top 50 players than us, but they have 3 top 20 players and we have zero. That's a huge huge difference.

I absolutely agree that part of our problem is youth, but it's precisely that youth that means you can't say we have one of the best rosters in the NBA, in my view. That youth impacts Ingram, Zion, Kira, Lonzo, NAW, Jax, and to a lesser extent Hart also. That's basically half the team, and well over half the actual rotation. Maybe in 3 years time, if everyone matures well and Ingram's managed to polish some of his flaws and Zion's defense has caught up like we hope it does and Kira has panned out, etc, you'll be able to say we're one of the better/deeper rosters in the league but that day is not today.

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Just talking efficiency numbers with the Nets. Different team makeup though. Just saying we aren't a losing team because defense alone. It's bad but with our offense you should win more games.

I agree, I think the talent is there it's just not ripened. I'm only realy considering Ingram, Zion and Lonzo at this point though. Those others have too much to prove imo. Ingram and Zion in particular are easily puting up numbers to compare to two star teams. They just don't know how to get their teams to win yet.

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Originally Posted by Stalwart385

Just talking efficiency numbers with the Nets. Different team makeup though. Just saying we aren't a losing team because defense alone. It's bad but with our offense you should win more games.

I agree, I think the talent is there it's just not ripened. I'm only realy considering Ingram, Zion and Lonzo at this point though. Those others have too much to prove imo. Ingram and Zion in particular are easily puting up numbers to compare to two star teams. They just don't know how to get their teams to win yet.

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Which is fine, and a conversation we can have. I just think we have to be realistic about where we are as a team concept. If you think that we're one of the best rosters in the league, then yeah it's understandable that you'd be shocked and horrified at how bad we've been. If you understand that we have some good pieces surrounded by a bunch of guys who are either not ready or flat out not very good, then it's suddenly no great surprise that we're bad.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Now go ahead and tell us how many of the 16 games the Nets had all 3 guys...since you information is always fair and unbiased so others can form a full.opinion

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LOL

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Which is fine, and a conversation we can have. I just think we have to be realistic about where we are as a team concept. If you think that we're one of the best rosters in the league, then yeah it's understandable that you'd be shocked and horrified at how bad we've been. If you understand that we have some good pieces surrounded by a bunch of guys who are either not ready or flat out not very good, then it's suddenly no great surprise that we're bad.

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Not how I would describe it. It would be that the top end talent on our roster is legit but young and still trying to figure out how to win. They have pieces around them but dont know how to put it together.

The talent is fine, at least acceptable for being a winning team, they just lack experience.

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Originally Posted by Stalwart385

Not how I would describe it. It would be that the top end talent on our roster is legit but young and still trying to figure out how to win. They have pieces around them but dont know how to put it together.

The talent is fine, at least acceptable for being a winning team, they just lack experience.

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We can go back and forever, What it boils down to is they, as a group, have no acumen for the fundamentals of basketball. Whether it's a 1 on 3 fast break by a four year veteran, or turning your back to the player you are defending , or jacking up a three early in the clock when time is your ally, or knowing when to go ISO and when to share the ball., or feinting surprise to a referee when you maul an opponent and a foul is called, we simply have a very, very low basketball IQ.

And the coaching is by no means exonerated. Starting Kira, JJ, JAX. Hart, and Zion in the fourth quarter of a close, hard fought game, is probably not a smart idea, either.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

We can go back and forever, What it boils down to is they, as a group, have no acumen for the fundamentals of basketball. Whether it's a 1 on 3 fast break by a four year veteran, or turning your back to the player you are defending , or jacking up a three early in the clock when time is your ally, or knowing when to go ISO and when to share the ball., or feinting surprise to a referee when you maul an opponent and a foul is called, we simply have a very, very low basketball IQ.

And the coaching is by no means exonerated. Starting Kira, JJ, JAX. Hart, and Zion in the fourth quarter of a close, hard fought game, is probably not a smart idea, either.

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It doesn't always pan out but experience usually improves those types of things. My biggest concern is losing culture breeding losing culture. If they can't generate some positive experiences they need to bring in a respected leader to guide them.

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Originally Posted by Stalwart385

It doesn't always pan out but experience usually improves those types of things. My biggest concern is losing culture breeding losing culture. If they can't generate some positive experiences they need to bring in a respected leader to guide them.

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Welcome aboard!!

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

Defense is this team's biggest issue

If they could just defend a little more they would be a playoff tean

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They just don't defend

Celtics game proving it again

Oh I've been watching this go on since CP3 and West were here. I just can't really put the past failures on the new coach, GM and players. This is a fresh ship for them.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

They just don't defend

Celtics game proving it again

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Didn't age well...

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Didn't age well...

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Just typical isn't it.

One of the worst perimeter defenses of all time, and the moment Speakthetruth comments on it we decide to become the 2004 Pistons.