Jrue Holliday is everyone's "missing piece"

Yes, Jrue Holliday is a hot item. Every team still in the bubble is realizing that they should have called the Pels and thrown out an offer for Jrue when they had the chance. That mistake won’t be made again by our opponents. That is great for us, but what could anyone offer us that would be of interest? Eventual late round draft picks? Players not on Jrue’s level? Cap space for free agent that won’t come here?

And why should the Pels trade him? Are we looking to take a step back? Do we think our team is past needing his veteran presence?

What do people expect/want from the Jrue storyline?

Well, this is the whole thing for me.

Pels fans are simultaneously saying ''Jrue is the missing piece for X Y Z team to be a real contender'', but also saying ''Nobody is going to pay high value for Jrue!''.

Both of these things can't be true at once. If teams believe Jrue is the missing piece they need to turn into a real championship contender, they will pay highly for him.

I’m of the mind that you keep him. Any contender looking to trade for him isn’t going to give you equal value. You will net a mix of a late first rounder(s), and some middle of the pack level player (and you will pray that he doesn’t exercise his player option tying up your salary cap for a move that you do want to make).

In my mind you take advantage of the goodwill you have built up with Jrue, and let him be a key piece in the team’s growth, and count on him aging like CP3 and not Derron Williams. There is no reason to trade him as he is a big piece to the teams trajectory from both a playing and veteran standpoint.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

I’m of the mind that you keep him. Any contender looking to trade for him isn’t going to give you equal value. You will net a mix of a late first rounder(s), and some middle of the pack level player (and you will pray that he doesn’t exercise his player option tying up your salary cap for a move that you do want to make).

In my mind you take advantage of the goodwill you have built up with Jrue, and let him be a key piece in the team’s growth, and count on him aging like CP3 and not Derron Williams. There is no reason to trade him as he is a big piece to the teams trajectory from both a playing and veteran standpoint.

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I'm of the opinion that you keep him unless you get an offer you can't refuse.

If that happens, then you obviously can't refuse, by definition. Otherwise, if all we get are mediocre offers of mediocre players, maybe with a late first attached as you say then I'm not interested. Jrue is a good player, I think his game will age well, he seems to want to be here, and he's actually a pretty good fit with Zion imo, even if he's not the right age to fit ''the time line'' that people like to bring up.

Jrue's a good guy. He had a rough year this year, mostly with regards to turnovers, because he was being asked to do a lot: other than him, we don't really have a reliable halfcourt guard who can run offense, and he was also our best perimeter/wing defender who always took on the hardest matchup. Even then, he was pretty good this year, despite that. The last two years before this one, he was even better. I feel like if we can acquire a decent lead guard either in the draft or through FA/trade, then he'll be more like his best self next season again, and that's extremely good. You don't just throw players of that calibre away for a laugh or cause you think trading guys is in fashion. You only do it if you see a real benefit to it.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I'm of the opinion that you keep him unless you get an offer you can't refuse.

If that happens, then you obviously can't refuse, by definition. Otherwise, if all we get are mediocre offers of mediocre players, maybe with a late first attached as you say then I'm not interested. Jrue is a good player, I think his game will age well, he seems to want to be here, and he's actually a pretty good fit with Zion imo, even if he's not the right age to fit ''the time line'' that people like to bring up.

Jrue's a good guy. He had a rough year this year, mostly with regards to turnovers, because he was being asked to do a lot: other than him, we don't really have a reliable halfcourt guard who can run offense, and he was also our best perimeter/wing defender who always took on the hardest matchup. Even then, he was pretty good this year, despite that. The last two years before this one, he was even better. I feel like if we can acquire a decent lead guard either in the draft or through FA/trade, then he'll be more like his best self next season again, and that's extremely good. You don't just throw players of that calibre away for a laugh or cause you think trading guys is in fashion. You only do it if you see a real benefit to it.

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Go look at his contract. See the 2022 player option that he'll clearly opt out. Go back at look at our roster. Then, go look at our salary. Go back and look at our roster median age. Then, look at the outlook of resigning a 31 year old guard to a 5 year max on a super young team 5 years from hitting it's prime vs. joining a vet team that is "one" piece away.

This is probably why you trade him and get some value for him than nothing at all. Come to term with it. We need to go with a full rebuild. Quit chasing the ninth seed. Letting go of Jrue Holiday is what needs to be done. I hate it as much as you do, but it's the truth.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Go look at his contract. See the 2022 player option that he'll clearly opt out. Go back at look at our roster. Then, go look at our salary. Go back and look at our roster median age. Then, look at the outlook of resigning a 31 year old guard to a 5 year max on a super young team 5 years from hitting it's prime vs. joining a vet team that is "one" piece away.

This is probably why you trade him and get some value for him than nothing at all. Come to term with it. We need to go with a full rebuild. Quit chasing the ninth seed. Letting go of Jrue Holiday is what needs to be done. I hate it as much as you do, but it's the truth.

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I don't believe that really any of this is true. First of all I don't think that roster median age means that much. If your average median age is 25, say, you aren't suddenly banned from having any players over 30 on your roster, and there is actually a popular (and I think persuasive) argument that says on young teams the presence of vets is very valuable.

Secondly, I'm not sure that Jrue will opt out. The 2021 FA market is pretty packed out: nobody is throwing Jrue a max in a free agency class that contains people like Giannis, so he may well opt in on the basis that the next summer will have less competition for the freed up money. This assumes of course that he doesn't just extend here, which he may well, without it being a 5 year max.

Thirdly, I haven't said that I'm refusing to trade him. What I have said is that I'm not going to trade him for spare parts and some gum. If someone thinks he's their key to a ring, they can pay for him. If they don't, we can keep him and potentially extend him: that's not an issue to me. I'm not saying we need Denver to offer Jokic, MPJ, and 5 FRPs, but I *am* saying that I'm not going to move Jrue for Caris LeVerts abolished knees and the privilege to pay Dinwiddie $20m.

As much as I love Jrue and I do think he is one of the few loyal guy's still in the league, if they get a good offer you have to trade him.
The team needs to collect assets for future stars they will need to add to their core of Bi and Zion.
This team doen't need to pay Jrue 25+ per year over the next 4 years.

Let's face it, he is a great defender, great team mate and truly great person, but give me a guard who can get to the line, create their own shot and hit the 3 ball.

Set him free to a contender where he has a chance to win a ship.

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

Let's face it, he is a great defender, great team mate and truly great person, but give me a guard who can get to the line, create their own shot and hit the 3 ball.

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Jrue had the lowest percentage of his 2 and 3 point makes assisted this year our of anyone on our team that played significant minutes.

Only 57.4% of Jrue's 3s this year were assisted. That is the lowest out of anyone on our team: second lowest is Lonzo, at 82.4%, and then Ingram at 88.7%. Jrue also shot 35% on pullups this year, which may not sound great (it isn't, it's basically average) but it was enough to make him the 2nd most accurate pullup shooter on the team, behind Redick (42.1%). For comparison, Lonzo shot 31.9% on pullups, Ingram 27.9%, E'twaun 27.3%, and Hart 23%.

Only 31% of Jrue's 2pt makes this year were assisted. The only player to come within 10% of that is Ingram, who had 32% of his 2pt makes assisted (so very close). The next group of guys are all up in the 40's.

There are critiques we can make of Jrue, but the idea that he can't create his own shot is sort of just not something that applies to reality. He's almost certainly the best player on the entire team at creating their own shot; his problem is that he isn't aggressive enough to do it as much as we'd like. The actual skillset is absolutely there.

In fact, given how massively assisted almost everyone on this team was from 3,

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

Yes, Jrue Holliday is a hot item. Every team still in the bubble is realizing that they should have called the Pels and thrown out an offer for Jrue when they had the chance. That mistake won’t be made again by our opponents. That is great for us, but what could anyone offer us that would be of interest? Eventual late round draft picks? Players not on Jrue’s level? Cap space for free agent that won’t come here?

And why should the Pels trade him? Are we looking to take a step back? Do we think our team is past needing his veteran presence?

What do people expect/want from the Jrue storyline?

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To me, it all comes down to how far you think the Pels are away from the top 6-7 teams in the West next year, and to me...its pretty far. Add to that there is a pandemic that will likely keep fans out of arenas next year - or at the very least, reduce capacity of arenas - and that should add up to them purposely taking a step back next year. No, not tanking. Thats how a simple person would describe it. Just not buying, and selling strategically when you get the chance. You still go into next year with talent. You add some vets for culture. You go hard every game, and maybe you even vastly overachieve like Memphis did this year with that formula. But in the offseason, you make sell moves - and with Jrue likely to be the best player that changes teams if you trade him, you should be able to get solid value.

I would look to Brooklyn first, even though I really dont like anybody on their roster except Dinwiddie for our current team. Something like Dinwiddie, Prince, and 2-3 future picks would make me happy. I am asking as far out as possible, and I would also hope to maybe get an additional pick or two from Dinwiddie and/or Prince over the next year or two at deadlines.

But again, I probably think we are further away than most. My timeline would be 2021 as a non-playoff, let young guys take their lumps year. 2022 is go for the playoffs, maybe you make it, maybe you fall short do to bad breaks like in CP3's 2nd year, and then year 3 you make a huge leap because of a combination of internal growth and you trade in some of these assets you built up in AD and Jrue trades to round out the roster.

I would rather that timeline than: Keep Jrue, add a solid vet or two and compete for 8th or 9th this year. Pay Jrue huge money to keep him, and rinse and repeat the next year, and the next year, etc

Jrue will be traded and the feeling will be mutual. I think part of the reason for his erratic play this year was --i believe--he just wasn't mentally in it. His time here has become stale.

Best both parties move on.

Putting together a championship contender is hard work and requires careful planning. Let Jrue be a "missing piece" for another time and let him provide us assets we can use for future team building.

Jay Williams is hearing that Lonzo Ball may be used as a trading asset in New Orleans

(�� Keyshawn, JWill And Zubin) pic.twitter.com/HPiUVhNLDa

— NBA Central (@TheNBACentral) August 21, 2020

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Jrue will be traded and the feeling will be mutual. I think part of the reason for his erratic play this year was --i believe--he just wasn't mentally in it. His time here has become stale.

Best both parties move on.

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Unfortunately, THIS !!!!

Ready for him to be traded yesterday. Makes no sense for the team for him to remain a Pelican.

I love Jrue as a person and part of me wants him to retire a Pelican. However, I'm not comfortable committing $25+mil and over 3+ years to him when he may be our 3rd best player in 3 years when we may be ready to compete. His minutes and cap space could be better used. I think he's a very good player, but not great. I also need the leader of my team to give me more than 7 points in what was basically an elimination game against the spurs. Outside of his defense and the Blazers playoff series Jrue's on-court presence in NO has been underwhelming imo.

Resigning Jrue signals we are ok with mediocrity. We shouldn't be giving that impression to Zion and BI, and we as fans deserve greatness after nearly 20 years.

The annoying thing is people who equate trading someone with thinking they're bad. Which is so antithetical to what a trade is even meant to do. If we expect to get something useful for Jrue, clearly we expect another team to have a high opinion of him. But ourselves, we think he's garbage now?

We need a true point to handle the rock until Zion comes of age. I can see him being a primary ball handler eventually. Or at least someone we're fully comfortable bringing the ball up and pushing the tempo.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

The annoying thing is people who equate trading someone with thinking they're bad. Which is so antithetical to what a trade is even meant to do. If we expect to get something useful for Jrue, clearly we expect another team to have a high opinion of him. But ourselves, we think he's garbage now?

We need a true point to handle the rock until Zion comes of age. I can see him being a primary ball handler eventually. Or at least someone we're fully comfortable bringing the ball up and pushing the tempo.

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To me, the biggest need is a guard (or guards) that get to the line. Its insane how little Jrue and Lonzo get there, and how rarely they make FTs when they get there. They combine to go 2.8 for 4.2 on free throws. COMBINED

You got Zion and Ingram drawing fouls all over the place. Hayes also has an insane FTr and you can see that maintaining as he gets more minutes over the years. One more guard that gets downhill and gets to the line and we can live in the bonus every quarter. Instead, we have two guards who are allergic to getting to the line and make them at a poor clip when they get here.

Thats why I like Dinwiddie short term. Guy gets to the line. And in this draft, Hayes, Lewis, and Anthony all have shown they can get there. Yes, we need shooting, but I see a guard who can get to the line as an even bigger priority.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

The annoying thing is people who equate trading someone with thinking they're bad. Which is so antithetical to what a trade is even meant to do. If we expect to get something useful for Jrue, clearly we expect another team to have a high opinion of him. But ourselves, we think he's garbage now?

We need a true point to handle the rock until Zion comes of age. I can see him being a primary ball handler eventually. Or at least someone we're fully comfortable bringing the ball up and pushing the tempo.

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never understood this whole Jrue is garbage stuff. He is a Supplement Superstar that would do wonders as a 3rd option. Expecting to get the farm for him as Superstar on his own... He lost value, but the whole argument of selling low is only in context we could of gotten someone to overpay for Jrue's value. The interest was there, but held on to Jrue. I think you can get a pretty fair deal. I think matching salary with young players and multiple unprotected future 1st from a title contender is probably the best deal you'll get.

The Brooklyn trade deal is almost impossible to do because of salary match with a Tax team. Nets don't have the low end salary to move Dinwiddle. If it they do... It would require a combination of Din, Allen, and couple of low end salary players It'll probably require a 3rd team. Possibly unloading Ball in the process as well. Brooklyn going to have to unload salary this offseason. 140 million tax team after a pandemic. I doubt you see any tax team next year.

It stinks that we are in the same division as the Grizz and the Mavs, and that we are in the Western Conference with those teams and the Warriors, Timberwolves, Jazz, Lakers, Clippers, Blazers, Suns, Rockets, Nuggs, Thunder, and Spurs (everyone will be competitive minus the Kings). Taking a step back next year can be expected, so now is as good a time as any to not perform well, but there is a balance that needs to be struck. You can take a step back on purpose, but if you don’t have the right pieces in place it can throw you into a tailspin that you can’t get out of. That’s why keeping a guy like Jrue is key. You can perform poorly with or without him, but he keeps your guys in line as he has been through this process a couple of times in this city. IMHO that is more important than what you would get for him via trade.

No team will give equal value for Jrue, so you keep him. Just think of what he is really worth on both sides of the ball, and you will realize no team will give that for him, with the small possibility of some borderline-championship team who would sacrifice a large chunk of their future in the draft.

BUT, what is something within the realm of possibility, is packaging Jrue and Lonzo together for a REAL star-level player to put next to BI and Zion who wants out of their situation for whatever reason. Not saying these are necessarily good fits or even remote possibilities at all, but something along the lines of Siakam maybe gets tired of Toronto weather, Jimmy Butler pisses off the wrong executive, etc. With the horrendous way Paul George is playing in the playoffs (and has historically played in the playoffs), Clippers may very well try to dump him. At this point that would be a hard pass.

There is something to be said for a guy who is very pro-team, pro-city, as opposed to a Jimmy Butler/Kendrick Perkins putting poison in the well type personality. I would rather keep Jrue and him be content than trade for a guy who didn’t want to come here from the jump, or only came here to cash one last pay check.

2 deals I like:

Jrue for LaVert (3 years $52 million total) and Dinwiddie (1 year 11.4 million with player option after)


Jrue and Redick for Oladipo (1-year $21 million) and Myles Turner (3 years, $18 million a year)

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

2 deals I like:

Jrue for LaVert (3 years $52 million total) and Dinwiddie (1 year 11.4 million with player option after)


Jrue and Redick for Oladipo (1-year $21 million) and Myles Turner (3 years, $18 million a year)

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Nets will probably want Miller to get under the tax.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

2 deals I like:

Jrue for LaVert (3 years $52 million total) and Dinwiddie (1 year 11.4 million with player option after)


Jrue and Redick for Oladipo (1-year $21 million) and Myles Turner (3 years, $18 million a year)

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Not going to comment too much on the first deal, since we've all talked about it a bunch, I just want to inform you that there is almost no chance Dinwiddie takes the player option. There is no way I can imagine a dude who tried to get the fans to do a crowd-funded bitcoin based $25m deal for his own services accepting an opt in for basically half market value. There is no universe where I can see him opting in to $11m when the market for starting guards floats around at almost double that. If you're trading for Dinwiddie, you're trading for the right to pay him $20m a year.

As for the second deal, I do like Turner but you're essentially giving up the Jrue + Redick for Myles Turner and an expiring Oladipo. With Oladipo, he's been awful since his first major injury two years ago, and he's only been more injured since. So either you're not planning on resigning him (in which case, why bother acquiring him?) or you're hoping he's going to come back from the injury and have a resurgent year, in which case you're trading for the right to pay him $20m+ a year again, despite him being barely younger than Jrue (at the end of next season, Jrue will be 30 and Oladipo will be 29) which I've been repeatedly told is why we can't resign Jrue.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Not going to comment too much on the first deal, since we've all talked about it a bunch, I just want to inform you that there is almost no chance Dinwiddie takes the player option. There is no way I can imagine a dude who tried to get the fans to do a crowd-funded bitcoin based $25m deal for his own services accepting an opt in for basically half market value. There is no universe where I can see him opting in to $11m when the market for starting guards floats around at almost double that. If you're trading for Dinwiddie, you're trading for the right to pay him $20m a year.

As for the second deal, I do like Turner but you're essentially giving up the Jrue + Redick for Myles Turner and an expiring Oladipo. With Oladipo, he's been awful since his first major injury two years ago, and he's only been more injured since. So either you're not planning on resigning him (in which case, why bother acquiring him?) or you're hoping he's going to come back from the injury and have a resurgent year, in which case you're trading for the right to pay him $20m+ a year again, despite him being barely younger than Jrue (at the end of next season, Jrue will be 30 and Oladipo will be 29) which I've been repeatedly told is why we can't resign Jrue.

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Deal 1: Who cares on the Dinwiddie deal? LaVert is the real prize with Dinwiddie as Lagniappe and a possible replacement for Ball.

Deal 2: I don’t see Redick on this team beyond next year as he will likely championship chase on his next contract. Jrue will opt in on his player option as no one will pay him $27 million a year on his next deal. Turner is the prize as a true stretch center who can defend an actual center on a reasonable contract. Oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

Deal 1: Who cares on the Dinwiddie deal? LaVert is the real prize with Dinwiddie as Lagniappe and a possible replacement for Ball.

Deal 2: I don’t see Redick on this team beyond next year as he will likely championship chase on his next contract. Jrue will opt in on his player option as no one will pay him $27 million a year on his next deal. Turner is the prize as a true stretch center who can defend an actual center on a reasonable contract. Oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy.

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I care, because not only is LeVert not nearly as great as some people seem to think he is, he's also got legs made of paper mache. It's hard for me to accept someone like Dinwiddie as a throw-in when that throw-in is going to cost you $20m+.

Yes, Jrue will opt in, I don't care about that. Like you said, ''oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy'': if he can stay healthy, he's getting paid $20m+ too, at which point you're starting to talk about a similar level of price as Jrue's next contract for a player that's basically the same age, not as good, and with a worse injury history. Which is a significant loss of value.

I also agree that it's not likely that Redick will be here long term, for age reasons if nothing else, but the reality is that he has value to contending teams. You don't throw him in to deals as a buy-one-get-one-free deal, especially when the return on that throw in is broken Oladipo. Saying that trading Redick isn't a big deal because you don't see him on the team beyond next year is one thing, but if you then trade him for someone who also probably won't be on the team next year, you're just spinning wheels.

It's kind of funny that Dell spent years trading away our every asset in a rush to win now, he left, everyone was like ''hooray! now we can do it right and build properly!''

And now barely a year later, everyone is like ''QUICK, TRADE THE #13 PICK, TRADE JRUE, TRADE REDICK, WE NEED TO SHIP EVERYTHING OUT!'' as if the only two options are lose forever or win today.

Some fans of this franchise seem to be in a desperate rush to be as mediocre as possible, as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I care, because not only is LeVert not nearly as great as some people seem to think he is, he's also got legs made of paper mache. It's hard for me to accept someone like Dinwiddie as a throw-in when that throw-in is going to cost you $20m+.

Yes, Jrue will opt in, I don't care about that. Like you said, ''oladipo is an expiring who may turn out as value if he can stay healthy'': if he can stay healthy, he's getting paid $20m+ too, at which point you're starting to talk about a similar level of price as Jrue's next contract for a player that's basically the same age, not as good, and with a worse injury history. Which is a significant loss of value.

I also agree that it's not likely that Redick will be here long term, for age reasons if nothing else, but the reality is that he has value to contending teams. You don't throw him in to deals as a buy-one-get-one-free deal, especially when the return on that throw in is broken Oladipo. Saying that trading Redick isn't a big deal because you don't see him on the team beyond next year is one thing, but if you then trade him for someone who also probably won't be on the team next year, you're just spinning wheels.

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Please present a better deal, as you seem to think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league and we can only receive value as such. Jrue is proven to choke in the clutch and is really a complementary great defender/ 3rd scoring option on a contending team. We won’t be a contending team for at least the next 2-3 years.

Care to wager that Dinwiddie won’t get $20m a year on his next deal in the post COVID NBA? He will get $15-$20 million a year max.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

Please present a better deal, as you seem to think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league and we can only receive value as such. Jrue is proven to choke in the clutch and is really a complementary great defender/ 3rd scoring option on a contending team. We won’t be a contending team for at least the next 2-3 years.

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I do not think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league, don't be silly. At his absolute peak, he was top 20 (2017-18 and 2018-19), but this year he was more like top 40. Definitely not a superstar by any measure, but still very good.

What people tend not to understand is that players are often better or worse depending on circumstance. This was the first year for a couple of years where we had nobody other than Jrue who could reliably be trusted to create in the halfcourt, and that meant that on top of his already existing responsibilities (play all-league defense on the best players in the NBA, score 18+ a game, etc) he was also being asked to create for everyone else too in half court situations. That was clearly too much for him, at least at the beginning of the year, and he struggled. Nobody is denying that. But that's a product of circumstance as much as anything else.

For example, if you take the last year we made the playoffs, Jrue was top 10 in clutch time scoring in the NBA, and was the most efficient scorer in the clutch among those top 10 players in the NBA. Yes, better than AD and Lebron and Westbrook and whatnot. This is very strange for someone who is ''proven to choke in the clutch'', no? Might make you think that maybe he can be better than he was this year, when given a more suitable supporting cast and not asked to run the entire team himself. Do I think he's actually a top 10 clutch player? No, I think that year was an outlier based on a perfect storm, but it is demonstrative of more than you give him credit for when he's in the right situation.

Personally, I don't really see the need to move Jrue. But if I was forced to move him (let's say, hypothetically, he demanded a move) then I'd be talking to Denver and I'd be looking for Jamal Murray, Monte Morris, and their 2021+23 FRPs unprotected to start the negotiations. Obviously things can adjust from there, but that's 1 sub-all star young player who has shown flashes of upside but is inconsistent, a very good backup, and two FRPs from a playoff team. This is not some ridiculous top 10 trade haul, but it is what I expect a team to pay if they believe this trade will turn them into a true title contender.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I do not think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league, don't be silly. At his absolute peak, he was top 20 (2017-18 and 2018-19), but this year he was more like top 40. Definitely not a superstar by any measure, but still very good.

What people tend not to understand is that players are often better or worse depending on circumstance. This was the first year for a couple of years where we had nobody other than Jrue who could reliably be trusted to create in the halfcourt, and that meant that on top of his already existing responsibilities (play all-league defense on the best players in the NBA, score 18+ a game, etc) he was also being asked to create for everyone else too in half court situations. That was clearly too much for him, at least at the beginning of the year, and he struggled. Nobody is denying that. But that's a product of circumstance as much as anything else.

For example, if you take the last year we made the playoffs, Jrue was top 10 in clutch time scoring in the NBA, and was the most efficient scorer in the clutch among those top 10 players in the NBA. Yes, better than AD and Lebron and Westbrook and whatnot. This is very strange for someone who is ''proven to choke in the clutch'', no? Might make you think that maybe he can be better than he was this year, when given a more suitable supporting cast and not asked to run the entire team himself. Do I think he's actually a top 10 clutch player? No, I think that year was an outlier based on a perfect storm, but it is demonstrative of more than you give him credit for when he's in the right situation.

Personally, I don't really see the need to move Jrue. But if I was forced to move him (let's say, hypothetically, he demanded a move) then I'd be talking to Denver and I'd be looking for Jamal Murray, Monte Morris, and their 2021+23 FRPs unprotected to start the negotiations. Obviously things can adjust from there, but that's 1 sub-all star young player who has shown flashes of upside but is inconsistent, a very good backup, and two FRPs from a playoff team. This is not some ridiculous top 10 trade haul, but it is what I expect a team to pay if they believe this trade will turn them into a true title contender.

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I see Jamal Murray as significantly more valuable than Jrue (younger and higher upside), yet you want him and 2 unprotected firsts? Your expectations are delusional. You value Jrue way too highly.

If you’re realistically looking at a similar trade, look at Mike Conley trade. Korver, Crowder, Grayson Allen, and the 23th pick. Jrue isn’t going to net you a star player. The only reason he can net you #2 is because of a rare opportunity due to injuries from a contending team.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

I see Jamal Murray as significantly more valuable than Jrue (younger and higher upside), yet you want him and 2 unprotected firsts? Your expectations are delusional. You value Jrue way too highly.

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Jamal Murray is a defensive turnstile who has never even hit league average efficiency on the offensive end, and who has yet to demonstrate anything even resembling consistency.

If you consider that more valuable (today, as in, if the Nuggets want to try and win a championship next season, not 6 seasons from now) than probably the best two way guard in the NBA, then you're free to do that but personally I disagree.

Now, of course if the Nuggets don't think that Jrue is what will push them over the edge, then they don't make the trade. That's fine, and neither of us are psychic so we don't know their internal evaluations. But if they do think that he is that guy to pair with Jokic, then they pay up. That's how things work: we don't have to trade Jrue, so we set the price. It's up for other teams to meet it, or not, depending on how desperately they want him.

And they're two unprotected firsts from a team that, in this scenario, think they're going to be title contenders. I cannot tell you how little Denver, who didn't even bother taking a FRP in the 2019 draft and constantly pick in the mid 20s, cares about their FRPs. If you tell them ''you can be in the conversation for a ring in the next few seasons, but it will cost you the 24th pick in 2023'' they will take that deal 90% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

Please present a better deal, as you seem to think Jrue is a top 10 player in the league and we can only receive value as such. Jrue is proven to choke in the clutch and is really a complementary great defender/ 3rd scoring option on a contending team. We won’t be a contending team for at least the next 2-3 years.

Care to wager that Dinwiddie won’t get $20m a year on his next deal in the post COVID NBA? He will get $15-$20 million a year max.

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No, wouldn't care to wager on Dinwiddie getting 20, but would REALLY like some of the action that says Jrue won't get a 27 mil or better next deal.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Jamal Murray is a defensive turnstile who has never even hit league average efficiency on the offensive end, and who has yet to demonstrate anything even resembling consistency.

If you consider that more valuable (today, as in, if the Nuggets want to try and win a championship next season, not 6 seasons from now) than probably the best two way guard in the NBA, then you're free to do that but personally I disagree.

Now, of course if the Nuggets don't think that Jrue is what will push them over the edge, then they don't make the trade. That's fine, and neither of us are psychic so we don't know their internal evaluations. But if they do think that he is that guy to pair with Jokic, then they pay up. That's how things work: we don't have to trade Jrue, so we set the price. It's up for other teams to meet it, or not, depending on how desperately they want him.

And they're two unprotected firsts from a team that, in this scenario, think they're going to be title contenders. I cannot tell you how little Denver, who didn't even bother taking a FRP in the 2019 draft and constantly pick in the mid 20s, cares about their FRPs. If you tell them ''you can be in the conversation for a ring in the next few seasons, but it will cost you the 24th pick in 2023'' they will take that deal 90% of the time.

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The Nuggets’ “second star” is Jamal Murray, so I highly doubt they think trading Murray for Jrue makes them a championship caliber team. Do you think Jrue filling the role as a “second star” makes any team a championship caliber team? I would like to think NBA GMs/coachs have some reasonable sense of value. I don’t see Billy King with a job. Do you have another suggestion?

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Originally Posted by Silver Nail

No, wouldn't care to wager on Dinwiddie getting 20, but would REALLY like some of the action that says Jrue won't get a 27 mil or better next deal.

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I’d take that bet against you. $5 and a bag of chips.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

The Nuggets’ “second star” is Jamal Murray, so I highly doubt they think trading Murray for Jrue makes them a championship caliber team. Do you think Jrue filling the role as a “second star” makes any team a championship caliber team? I would like to think NBA GMs/coachs have some reasonable sense of value. I don’t see Billy King with a job. Do you have another suggestion?

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NBA GMs are professionals doing a job, and while obviously many of them are good at it, they're as capable of making mistakes as anyone else. Every year, teams make multiple moves that leave everyone scratching their heads. Don't fool yourself into thinking that NBA GMs are some kind of flawless mistake-free group.

In any case, that's not really the point. Is Jrue a downgrade from Murray on offense? As a scorer, yes, although Jrue is actually the superior passer. Is he an upgrade from Murray on defense? Absolutely, without question.

If you're the Nuggets, who have Jokic, who have Gary Harris, who have MPJ coming along nicely, who have Bol Bol sat there ready going forward, you know offense isn't your worry. Your problem is that you don't have a single goddamn wing defender worth a pair of socks, and as a result whenever you hit a team in the playoffs with a serious ballhandler who can create, you get torched. If you think that you are 90% of the way towards being a contender, and the one thing you're missing is a legitimate wing stopper, then Jrue could very well have more value to you than Murray. If Jrue only gets you 80% of Murray on offense, but is 5 times better as a defender, that's a net gain, and for a team which already has ample offensive firepower it's the defensive gain that you need.

Now, it may be well that the Nuggets don't think this. Maybe they think they're much further away from contending than that, and therefore it's worth it for them to wait on Murray some more and see if he takes a leap. That's fine. If that's the case, we don't make the trade.

Again, I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, we do not actually have to trade Jrue. We are not required to do it. There is no law or rule telling us that we have to, he hasn't asked out, he's not 38 years old, it's not like he's going to be eligible for a supermax, he seems to want to be here, here's a good player, and it's not like we're capped out or anything. The only reason to trade Jrue is if we get something out of it that is worth the deal. If we don't get an offer that is worth the deal, we don't make the trade. It's that simple. If he had asked out, it would be a different story, but he hasn't.

Not sure why so many people seem to be doing their best Dell Demps Fire Sale impression, but cool the jets.

You guys really should give up on give Dae Jrue trade ideas. He already said he wouldn't budge.

You got him on some nonsensical anecdote referencing Demps win now trade vs. Trying to get assets and young players and just take a few years to build organically with no risk on our long term future. It a fruitless conversation. He already said his piece

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Originally Posted by Taker597

You guys really should give up on give Dae Jrue trade ideas. He already said he wouldn't budge.

You got him on some nonsensical anecdote referencing Demps win now trade vs. Trying to get assets and young players and just take a few years to build organically with no risk on our long term future. It a fruitless conversation. He already said his piece

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Yeah, I've been very clear that I'm not at all interested in trading Jrue for a bunch of spare parts. If he gets moved, fine, but it should be for an offer where we tangibly get something out of it. We don't have to trade him, so unless we see an actually good reason to do so, there's no reason to make that move. Arguing that he doesn't fit our timeline and is expensive, only to turn around and suggest a deal including Spencer Dinwiddie, who is basically Jrue's age and is going to cost in the region of $20m himself, is basically just being ridiculous on purpose tbh.

Some people on this board seem weirdly convinced that you should make trades just for the sake of having made a trade. Pointless.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, I've been very clear that I'm not at all interested in trading Jrue for a bunch of spare parts. If he gets moved, fine, but it should be for an offer where we tangibly get something out of it. We don't have to trade him, so unless we see an actually good reason to do so, there's no reason to make that move. Arguing that he doesn't fit our timeline and is expensive, only to turn around and suggest a deal including Spencer Dinwiddie, who is basically Jrue's age and is going to cost in the region of $20m himself, is basically just being ridiculous on purpose tbh.

Some people on this board seem weirdly convinced that you should make trades just for the sake of having made a trade. Pointless.

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Yeah, let’s ignore Caris LeVert and Myles Turner to fit your narrative. Both younger, up and coming, players on relatively value deals. We would fair far better with a 30 year old making $27 million on a 2 year deal who is at best a 3rd option offensively and has one decent playoff series to his name with 7 years as a Pelican.

It’s time to clean house from the remnants of the last regime, and Jrue’s mediocrity is a part of that.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

Yeah, let’s ignore Caris LeVert and Myles Turner to fit your narrative. Both younger, up and coming, players on relatively value deals. We would fair far better with a 30 year old making $27 million on a 2 year deal who is at best a 3rd option offensively and has one decent playoff series to his name with 7 years as a Pelican.

It’s time to clean house from the remnants of the last regime, and Jrue’s mediocrity is a part of that.

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Caris LeVert is

1) Older than most people think (he turns 27 next year)
2) Worse than most people think (hasn't posted a league average TS% since his rookie year, mediocre defender, mediocre passer, career 33% from 3)
3) Has already had multiple serious injuries, which is why he played 45 games this year and 40 games last year

As for Turner, you'll notice that while I do have some issue with Turner (he's regressed on defense, for example, which is supposed to be his calling card) I do actually like him. You'll notice, if you actually bother to read what I write before responding, that my primary issue with the Indiana trade is the Oladipo inclusion.

yea I dont want to trade Jrue for a collection of nickels and dimes, known guys near their ceilings, and random future picks that might be in the 20s.

If you're not getting a core piece why bother. That doesn't have to be a guy currently viewed as a core piece or anything though. If the scouts in the FO decide Killian Hayes is the guy or something then I wouldn't hesitate to trade Jrue to trade up for a pick high enough to select him (obviously you'd still need more than that though to make sure the value is even, but that can be the core component.)

You trade him right away if a solid offer is on the table. He didn’t make a bad defense better, he contributed greatly to our massive turnover issues, he was too inconsistent with decision making in possession and he isn’t a consistent enough 3 point shooter to fit right next to Zion. Also, he is on a sizeable contract, we aren’t competitive enough atm and he only has one real year left (not counting the player option). On the right team, he is a very good player. On this team, he looked really bad for a large portion of our games. Not acceptable for a player on his contract.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

You trade him right away if a solid offer is on the table. He didn’t make a bad defense better, he contributed greatly to our massive turnover issues, he was too inconsistent with decision making in possession and he isn’t a consistent enough 3 point shooter to fit right next to Zion. Also, he is on a sizeable contract, we aren’t competitive enough atm and he only has one real year left (not counting the player option). On the right team, he is a very good player. On this team, he looked really bad for a large portion of our games. Not acceptable for a player on his contract.

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Find me a player good enough to fix this team lol. We had AD come runner up for DPOY twice during his tenure here and he couldn't fix our defense: we only had a top 10 defensive rating once during Gentry's entire time as head coach.

The only players who are good enough to legitimately be really good on a team which has as many problems as ours did this year are like, the top 10 players in the NBA. Jrue made less this year than Andrew Wiggins, Al Horford, Demar DeRozan, CJ McCollum, Tobias Harris, Mike Conley, and Russell Westbrook, and despite his problems he had a better year than all of them. If his performance is unacceptable for his contract, then half the contracts in the league over $25m are unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Find me a player good enough to fix this team lol. We had AD come runner up for DPOY twice during his tenure here and he couldn't fix our defense: we only had a top 10 defensive rating once during Gentry's entire time as head coach.

The only players who are good enough to legitimately be really good on a team which has as many problems as ours did this year are like, the top 10 players in the NBA. Jrue made less this year than Andrew Wiggins, Al Horford, Demar DeRozan, CJ McCollum, Tobias Harris, Mike Conley, and Russell Westbrook, and despite his problems he had a better year than all of them. If his performance is unacceptable for his contract, then half the contracts in the league over $25m are unacceptable.

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You literally just made my point for me. He is bad on this team. Realistically he will stay for one more year and bail. Why on Earth should we keep him? Will AD re-sign here?

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

You literally just made my point for me. He is bad on this team. Realistically he will stay for one more year and bail. Why on Earth should we keep him? Will AD re-sign here?

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Not really sure why you ask about AD resigning here, nothing I said had anything to do with that. My point was that getting mad at Jrue because he didn't fix the defense of this team, for example, is a really, really silly thing to do, because that's not how defense works: even DPOY level players can't single handedly fix a bad defense because defense is more about coaching scheme, technique, group trust, and teamwork than offense is. That's just how it is.

In any case, it's also abundantly obvious that Jrue isn't bad on all teams, I think you'd agree with that. The evidence of this is that he was really great for the Pelicans the last two years, so it's clear he can be good.

So when you say ''he is bad on this team'', what you really mean is ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans that existed for the 2019-20 season''.

Great news! The team that exists for the 2020-21 season won't be that Pelicans team. Lonzo's got a good shot of being traded, Favors, Frank Jackson, E'twaun Moore, Kenrich Williams, etc, all have a good chance of not being here, there might be a Didi addition, the draft could easily bring in some new faces before we even get to free agency and, oh yep, we're going to have a new coach.

Therefore ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans team that won't exist in 3 months, so we should trade him'' doesn't really work as an argument.

Trading Jrue is not some no-no, forbidden idea that we're not allowed to discuss. I just don't know why the door being open to trades means that apparently it should be open for really bad trades. Teams should make their offers and if they're good we'll take them and if they're bad we shouldn't: not sure why this is apparently some grand mystery that I need to point out to people.

Dae: I don't want to trade Holiday
Everyone else: wElL hOw aBoUt tHiS tRaDe!?
Dae: Still no
Everyone else:
https://i.redd.it/xmulu1f6urt11.jpg

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Dae: I don't want to trade Holiday
Everyone else: wElL hOw aBoUt tHiS tRaDe!?
Dae: Still no
Everyone else:

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More like

Other people: We should trade Jrue. He's too old for our timeline, too expensive, and wasn't good this year.
Me: Okay fine, I'm open to the idea of trading him but it has to be for something that tangibly improves our future.
Other people: Our suggestions include a bunch of people basically the same age as him, deals that will end up costing more than him, players with legs made of chalk powder and hope, and we haven't even added any picks.
Me: Nah, those are bad deals.
Everyone else: *shocked pikachu*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

More like

Other people: We should trade Jrue. He's too old for our timeline, too expensive, and wasn't good this year.
Me: Okay fine, I'm open to the idea of trading him but it has to be for something that tangibly improves our future.
Other people: Our suggestions include a bunch of people basically the same age as him, deals that will end up costing more than him, players with legs made of chalk powder and hope, and we haven't even added any picks.
Me: Nah, those are bad deals.
Everyone else: *shocked pikachu*

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I like my condense version. lol, It's gonna be a long off season.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Not really sure why you ask about AD resigning here, nothing I said had anything to do with that. My point was that getting mad at Jrue because he didn't fix the defense of this team, for example, is a really, really silly thing to do, because that's not how defense works: even DPOY level players can't single handedly fix a bad defense because defense is more about coaching scheme, technique, group trust, and teamwork than offense is. That's just how it is.

In any case, it's also abundantly obvious that Jrue isn't bad on all teams, I think you'd agree with that. The evidence of this is that he was really great for the Pelicans the last two years, so it's clear he can be good.

So when you say ''he is bad on this team'', what you really mean is ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans that existed for the 2019-20 season''.

Great news! The team that exists for the 2020-21 season won't be that Pelicans team. Lonzo's got a good shot of being traded, Favors, Frank Jackson, E'twaun Moore, Kenrich Williams, etc, all have a good chance of not being here, there might be a Didi addition, the draft could easily bring in some new faces before we even get to free agency and, oh yep, we're going to have a new coach.

Therefore ''he was bad on the version of the Pelicans team that won't exist in 3 months, so we should trade him'' doesn't really work as an argument.

Trading Jrue is not some no-no, forbidden idea that we're not allowed to discuss. I just don't know why the door being open to trades means that apparently it should be open for really bad trades. Teams should make their offers and if they're good we'll take them and if they're bad we shouldn't: not sure why this is apparently some grand mystery that I need to point out to people.

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The point is we probably won’t acquire the players for Jrue to be useful before his contract runs down. Do we keep him and lose him for nothing or look for a trade package that sets us up better in the long term. For me, it’s without a doubt the latter. He isn’t worth keeping (in my opinion). I’m entitled to my opinion and you’re entitled to yours. I never said you weren’t, which is not getting through apparently. You are getting a bit too defensive about this guy.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

The point is we probably won’t acquire the players for Jrue to be useful before his contract runs down. Do we keep him and lose him for nothing or look for a trade package that sets us up better in the long term. For me, it’s without a doubt the latter. He isn’t worth keeping (in my opinion). I’m entitled to my opinion and you’re entitled to yours. I never said you weren’t, which is not getting through apparently. You are getting a bit too defensive about this guy.

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It's fine that you want to look for a trade package that sets us up better in the long term.

How about people start suggesting those then, instead of asking for the privilege of paying Spencer Dinwiddie $20m a year?