Tonight in Cleveland!
— New Orleans Pelicans (@PelicansNBA) December 21, 2023
🏀: vs Cavaliers
🕡: 6:30 pm CT
📺: @BallySportsNO
📻: @995WRNO #Pelicans | @SmoothieKing pic.twitter.com/WqSUKQfbIl
After a horrible loss last game, the Pels are on the road again to take on the Cleveland Cavaliers.
Cleveland has a 16-12 record too, and their net rating - while worse than ours - isn't actually far off. They're a decent team.
They are, however, struggling with injuries right now. Evan Mobley is Out, Darius Garland is Out, and Donovan Mitchell missed last game with an illness that may still be lingering.
The Pels, however, are not immune; this non-COVID illness has been going around the league (other than Donovan Mitchell, it's caught Gordon Hayward, Killian Hayes, Jae'Sean Tate, Norman Powell, and Amen Thompson, just to name a few), and unfortunately that has included the Pelicans. According to our latest injury report, posted last night, Zion, Herb, and Jonas are all also questionable with this non-COVID illness. We'll see how that pans out and if they play.
Last game rightfully caused a lot of upset. There were problems on the court from players, yes, but there was also a complete deviation from the strategies that have been winning lately (made 22 3s in our last win, only shot 25 in Memphis game, for example) and a lack of effort in getting into those better looks. However, one thing that was good to see was Willie Green speaking to the media yesterday and admitting that he thinks he messed up the lineups towards the end of the game. This is absolutely true, and it's good of him to acknowledge it.
Willie Green is a defensively minded coach working with an offensively minded roster. Now, that can work, if the uses his defensive mindset to create a baseline level of competence on defense that allows the offense to flourish without worrying about turning into Indiana. Unfortunately, this is not what he does most of the time: instead, he stifles the offense considerably in an attempt to create a League First Defense with a roster that isn't equipped to do so with any consistency. This is why Naji Marshall and Dyson Daniels - good players who definitely should be getting minutes, don't get me wrong - are getting minutes ahead of Jordan Hawkins, and it's why Trey Murphy is getting 21 minutes in a game we need shooting, and it's why Trey rarely plays together with Zion despite that being an obvious offensive pairing, and it's why we constantly see single-shooter lineups despite us finally having shooters.
It shouldn't take a genius to work this out, but if last game has given Green the motivation to fix it, then I'll take it. Better late than never.
Let's see how Green adapts going forward and find out if we can pick up another win here.
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12-21-2023, 11:50 AMPelicanidaeDecember 21st - New Orleans Pelicans @ Cleveland Cavaliers - 16-12
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12-21-2023, 11:56 AMPelicanidae
For those interested in reading more about Willie Green's defensive focus clashing with the roster, I recommend these reads:
https://intheno.substack.com/p/forgot-about-trey - Forgot About Trey by Shamit Dua
And this post on Reddit by user 'asapshrank', titled ''8 blown double digit leads in only 28 games: How Willie Green is keeping the Pelicans from reaching their full potential'': https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comment...only_28_games/Quote:
After the game, Murphy told media that defenses would have to “pick their poison” with he and Zion, and no matter their choice, the opponent would lose either way.
The staff has no interest in forcing defenses to pick this poison. [...] They are content throwing Murphy out there as lone shooter to try and carry defense heavy units that have no ability or desire to create good looks - a departure from the early season philosophy that saw multiple shooter heavy units leading to success.
[...] Sometimes things are simple and not worth overthinking. The Pelicans are 22-7 over Murphy’s career when he attempts 8 or more threes. They are 41-60 when he attempts 7 or less, in games he has played at least 10 minutes. There is likely a fair amount of survivorship bias at play, but it is on the whole organization to figure out if there is actual truth to the data. There needs to be a prolonged effort to rectify this failure.
Quote:
In the modern NBA, when your team goes up significantly, you go balls-to-the-wall with offense to keep and extend your lead. You put 2-3 shooters out on the floor at once, and just keep the shots coming. It's simply the way the NBA has worked for years now. The modern NBA is simply too offensively oriented and talented - no matter what defensive lineup you put out there, the other team is going to score. If you have a lineup full of non-scorers on the floor for defense's sake, you are going to find the other team suddenly closing that large gap you built.
Unfortunately Willie Green doesn't realize this, and continues to put defensive lineups or lineups with no shooters on the floor when the Pelicans are up big, leading to complete collapses and blown leads.
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12-21-2023, 01:34 PMFedupfan
It’s utter non sense what Willie Green does. Bottom 3 coach.
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12-21-2023, 05:04 PMPelicanidae
Zion OUT with non-COVID illness
Herb and Jonas both game-time decisions with the same issue. -
12-21-2023, 05:39 PMPelicanidae
Herb Jones (non-COVID illness) and Jonas Valanciunas (non-COVID illness) will be available tonight in Cleveland.
— Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) December 21, 2023
Cody Zeller will be out with a right ankle sprain. -
12-21-2023, 05:42 PM6warddude
so jonas is the only big and he is sick also....
i guess the saints will beat the rams tonight... -
12-21-2023, 06:14 PMPelicanidae
Trey got the start instead of Dyson.
I used to dream of days like this. -
12-21-2023, 07:00 PMPelicanidae
Oh hey look, Trey's really good at basketball.
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12-21-2023, 07:01 PMPelicanidae
I hope that Green's taking notes this game about how much better your offense looks when you start with 2 guys who can shoot instead of 1.
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12-21-2023, 07:05 PMAs I See It
We've already enjoyed a double digit lead in first quarter.
Number nine?
We'll see!!!!
DEFENSE...DEFENSE...DEFENSE!!! -
12-21-2023, 07:21 PMFedupfan
The Dyson Herb lineup is terrible
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12-21-2023, 07:26 PMPelicanidaeIt's because it's never just Dyson/Herb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedupfan
If Green was like, okay Dyson/Herb but the other three are CJ, Trey, and Matt Ryan - for example - you might be able to get away with it. Only player under 6'5, three shooters, two elite defenders, it might work.
But he doesn't. He goes Dyson/Herb/Naji/Jose/Nance or something (when Nance is healthy) and now your team has a bunch of defense on it but it can't score or rebound so yeah, you get beaten in those minutes. -
12-21-2023, 07:33 PMAs I See ItYou mean like Dyson and Herb plus Naji, Jose, and 'HIM" (bowing reverently)?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
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12-21-2023, 07:33 PMPelicanidae
Pels win first half 66-52 behind Trey Murphy continuing to prove that when you play him and give him shots, he will reward you.
Some very good play from BI as well, particularly liking his passing tonight. Looking sharp. -
12-21-2023, 07:47 PMhornetsrebirth
Im watching the Saints still not talking to the Pelicans
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12-21-2023, 07:49 PMhornetsrebirth
but that might change soon if the saints keep this up smh
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12-21-2023, 08:09 PMhornetsrebirth
Holy **** Trey with great defense to stop a fast break. He is playing his ****** off today
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12-21-2023, 08:12 PMPelicanidae
Oh hey look, it's the Herb/Dyson/Jose/Naji/JRE lineup.
What were we saying about Green playing lineups with zero scoring? -
12-21-2023, 08:13 PMJJackisangry
Good close. Trey has been phenomenal
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12-21-2023, 08:31 PMPelicanidae
Trey's a menace. Start this man.
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12-21-2023, 08:32 PMhornetsrebirthin place of who?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
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12-21-2023, 08:34 PMPelicanidaeHerb.Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth
Love Herb, still think he needs 30 minutes a night to play, and you can close with whoever is doing best at the time, but I just think JV, Zion, and BI benefit massively from the additional shooting and the defense should still be good enough to stay afloat give CJ and JV's massive improvements on defense this year.
It's not about him being a better player than Herb overall (though he clearly is offensively, and clearly isn't defensively) but about the compound effect that adding a guy with his skillset will have on everyone else. -
12-21-2023, 08:38 PMPelicanidae
Tonight Trey took 4 3PAs from at least 30 feet and went 2/4 on them lmao.
Another of his makes was a 29 footer. -
12-21-2023, 08:40 PMPelicanidae
17-12 (our current record) is on pace to win 48 games.
Last year's 3rd seed in the West won 48 games. -
12-21-2023, 08:41 PMhornetsrebirthmaaaaybe. im not convinced but would be interested to see what happens with itQuote:
Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
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12-21-2023, 08:44 PMPelicanidaeThe way I see it, Trey's about to get a $30m a year extension at the end of this season. You gotta find out just how far this ''he's unbelievably efficient'' thing goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth
In my view, Trey and Zion should basically share the court together for 75% of their minutes. Glue those boys together. They have good chemistry when they're both on court, it just rarely happens. See how far it takes you before you pay the guy $150m, not after. -
12-21-2023, 08:44 PMPelicanidae
Pels are now 23-7 in Trey's career when he takes at least 8 3PAs.
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12-21-2023, 08:48 PMhornetsrebirthMy issue with him in the starting lineup is there is only 1 basketball to go around. I want to see JV utilized more on offense, he is really good. Obviously BI, CJ, and Zion all need to get a lot of shots up. I want to see Trey featured more on offense but just not convinced having him on the floor with our 4 best offensive players is the recipe for him getting more shots up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelicanidae
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12-21-2023, 08:53 PMPelicanidaeJV's an expiring contract, unfortunately, and I don't know if we're going to be able to keep him. So in terms of the future of the team, as much as I want him to play and play well (because I agree, he is really good and ultra consistent) I think it's more important to find out exactly what you actually have in Trey.Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth
And like I said, it's not necessarily about Trey himself, even, though I do think he would work well. It's about the cumulative effect his spacing has on others. If him starting makes Zion, BI, CJ, and JV all - let's pick a number - 20% better offensively each because of the space they gain to operate in and the options they have to pass to, then it's worth the slight drop in defense even if Trey himself isn't the one getting those shots. And I do think he'd get those shots, because both Zion and BI have shown that they are very very willing to pass it off to Trey to shoot. Zion/Trey DHO is one of the best instant-good-shot options this team has, and we barely run it.
There is only one basketball to go around, but both CJ and Trey can play very effectively off-ball so it's not like there would be arguments. Zion usually sits as the first sub after about 6 minutes anyway, so you bring Herb in then and suddenly there's more ball-handling for CJ and Trey to use up. Who starts doesn't dictate what else goes on, it's just making sure your first punch is as potent as it can be. -
12-21-2023, 10:30 PM13 - 3
After watching the Aints this is some relief. Glad we won.
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12-21-2023, 10:41 PMJJackisangry
Notice how the other team waves the white flag once we establish consistency. It?s a psychological game as well as a physical one. You go through droughts, other teams get hopeful and give you problems. You take care of things offensively and they crumble. More of that
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12-21-2023, 11:26 PMhornetsrebirthThey also were missing their top 3 scorers, teams crumble easier like thatQuote:
Originally Posted by JJackisangry
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12-22-2023, 01:56 AMImpose
This roster construction has some vibes of 'one of these things doesn't belong' but sometimes it feels good... I really hope the egos get out of the way and the talent gets to shine and this team gels. Because the only thing that doesn't seem right is we have so much talent but don't play to our potential night in night out
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12-22-2023, 02:43 AMMrakar
Funny how things feel different when we play against G-League roster...
Next game is a real test. We already lost to Rockets in a typical Pels fashion. Lost double digit lead, a lot of turnovers.
They are also still in contention for playoffs. They have a lot of players with questionable decision making, but unlike the Pels they have really good and strict/authoritarian coach. -
12-22-2023, 07:09 AMdonatoQuote:
Originally Posted by Mrakar
Is it though? We should be at or near full strength depending on if players will be over this illness. Rockets will be playing on the road on the second night of a back to back. It's definitely a let-down if we come out of that game with a loss. -
12-22-2023, 08:25 AMAs I See ItSee 12/19/23 Memphis game for context.Quote:
Originally Posted by donato
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12-22-2023, 10:34 AMJJackisangryMy point stands even more. We didn’t put teams like Utah, Chicago, Memphis, etc. away and look what happened? We need to put these games to bedQuote:
Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth