Draft Prospects Discussion

I could see Murray going #3 depending on how he measures and does in the drills. With the way the NBA is evolving and copy cats of the Warriors teams will be all over him. He has the potential to be a Klay Thompson type of player.

Anybody else like Danuel House from Texas A&M in the 2nd round?

Like I said, whatever it takes to get Murray, do it.

lose in a hurry for murray

I'm all for the Blue Arrow, baby!!!

Would love Murray in the 1st and Moody in the 2nd. I think that would give us spacing and offense
Murray as a starter, and Moody off the bench.

anyone else slightly worried about murray's lack of athleticism, handles or defense?

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

anyone else slightly worried about murray's lack of athleticism, handles or defense?

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The athleticism concern kinda pairs with the defense. His measurables aren't great and he doesn't have the quickness that can make up for it. However, his handles shouldn't be a problem if he's used correctly because he moves so well without the ball. And he seems to try pretty hard on D which at least gives him a foundation for not being horrible. Ideally he's be a little longer with more fast-twitch athleticism, but if he had that he'd be in the discussion for #1 with Simmons and Ingram. I think he has a solid base of skills and really looks like he can make a positive impact in his first year or so, which not many rookies/sophomores can do.

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Originally Posted by Nola3

The athleticism concern kinda pairs with the defense. His measurables aren't great and he doesn't have the quickness that can make up for it. However, his handles shouldn't be a problem if he's used correctly because he moves so well without the ball. And he seems to try pretty hard on D which at least gives him a foundation for not being horrible. Ideally he's be a little longer with more fast-twitch athleticism, but if he had that he'd be in the discussion for #1 with Simmons and Ingram. I think he has a solid base of skills and really looks like he can make a positive impact in his first year or so, which not many rookies/sophomores can do.

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fair enough, and I agree, when i watch him play the kid just knows how to get open off the ball and just has an instant release, he's an assassin. And like others have said he did pretty decent when he was matched against Simmons, who has 5 inches and 35 pounds on him.

also i've been seeing a ton of boards where people are saying he might turn into the best player from this draft and say he is the next coming of Brandon Roy.

Which seems like a pretty good comparison. Average athleticism, but very smart, knock down, clutch shooter, unselfish.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

anyone else slightly worried about murray's lack of athleticism, handles or defense?

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I am. He really does have McCollum written all over him. Doesn't have the natural athleticism, size, quickness or enough current defensive IQ or ability.

McCollum is not a bad place to land but even Portland fans would tell you the lack of defense on the perimeter hurts their duo. Thankfully we have Jrue to cover the best perimeter defender but when you start talking about playing the best guard combos in the league, things get a little more tricky.

It also does baffle me the people who are knocking Buddy Hield for his measurables even though Hield has slightly better everything then Murray. Murray just has youth on his side and the allure of "potential" is always very strong.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

anyone else slightly worried about murray's lack of athleticism, handles or defense?

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Not really go look at Klay Thompson's scouting report out of college. Everyone was worried about his athleticism too. Valentine and Murray are athletic enough and make up for their slightly lesser athleticism with BBIQ and work ethic. Would take either one over Reke and his athleticism. I would be happy with any of the following: Ingram/Brown/Murray/Hield/Dunn/Valentine. This is a pretty deep draft in my opinion. A lot of good shooters at the 3 who will be available later in the draft too. I like House and Layman both a lot.


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Frankly i think there is a lot of guard talent this year that is going to translate: Murray, Hield, Dunn and Valentine and a few others I haven't seen enough to speak too but get raved about like Baldwin and Jackson.

The key, I guess, is hoping you end up with the best of the bunch if we go the guard route this draft. And given how late Valentine is projecting to go, I am less worried if we fall out of the 6 spot. Valentine really could be the best of the bunch. He really does everything you want a modern guard to do, especially in a Gentry type system.

Exact quote from draft express about Klay Thompson coming out of college: "Still, there are many questions surrounding Thompson's game and how it will transition to the next level, namely due to his lack of great athleticism and struggles on the defensive end."



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Originally Posted by JrueDat

Exact quote from draft express about Klay Thompson coming out of college: "Still, there are many questions surrounding Thompson's game and how it will transition to the next level, namely due to his lack of great athleticism and struggles on the defensive end."



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that's pretty funny, turned out to be a good athlete and good defender lol.

it's like reading those nfl scouting reports, like the one that said JJ Watt wouldn't be a good pass rusher.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

that's pretty funny, turned out to be a good athlete and good defender lol.

it's like reading those nfl scouting reports, like the one that said JJ Watt wouldn't be a good pass rusher.

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I guess it goes to show what these guys can do when they work hard. Certain levels of athleticism can't be achieved that way but they can get stronger, smarter and better conditioned. They are all more athletic than me ;)


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Originally Posted by JrueDat

Exact quote from draft express about Klay Thompson coming out of college: "Still, there are many questions surrounding Thompson's game and how it will transition to the next level, namely due to his lack of great athleticism and struggles on the defensive end."



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Yep, that is the story for A LOT of recent successful guards. Yet there are people that think a guy like Hield won't make it even though he has better athleticism then a guy like Klay Thompson at draft time.

Valentine though, man, that sort of smart guard play out of both positions is insanely intriguing. Two big guards that are great shooters, great off the ball, have good ball handling, vision and smart, high character guys that come up in big moments is an exciting thought.

I think Thompson is Murray's dream ceiling, but Klay has a lot of size on him which has let him become a really good defender. I think his realistic ceiling is JJ Reddick which would be a great fit for this team. If we stay at 6 and Murray keeps his stock rising, I'd be fine with Brown (who I think is gonna fall once scouts start picking apart his game tapes), Hield, Bender, or Valentine.

Also Valentine is currently on CBS battling Purdue. Currently at 5-8, including 3-5 from three, 7 assists and 4 boards and just made a timely steal during a Purdue run and now a no look alley oop pass.

yall see valentine as a SG or SF in the league?

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Also Valentine is currently on CBS battling Purdue. Currently at 5-8, including 3-5 from three, 6 assists and 4 boards and just made a timely steal during a Purdue run and now a no look alley oop pass.

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That pass was crazy off a defenders knee he scrambles for it and throws it up to a guy named Davis. Is that a sign? Valentine to Davis has a nice ring. I would trade anyone on our team other than Davis and Holiday to get back in and grab Valentine in the 1st if our pick is too high.


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I think Valentine can play 1-3 but I play him at 2 next to Holiday. Depending on matchup.

He probably guards 3 unless it's an elite guy. Depends on who else starts next to him other than Holiday or Davis though.


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imagine if we signed a center to a 1 year deal instead of asik and we had an extra 11 mil to spend this offseason.

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Originally Posted by JrueDat

I think Valentine can play 1-3 but I play him at 2 next to Holiday. Depending on matchup.

He probably guards 3 unless it's an elite guy. Depends on who else starts next to him other than Holiday or Davis though.


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jrue valentine and barnes would be fun to watch.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

yall see valentine as a SG or SF in the league?

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I would like to see some more measurements of the guys athleticism from the combine before fully judging him but if I had to bet I would see him as a SG that can switch between the 2 and 3 pretty regularly.

He has a 6'10 wingspan which isnt as good as Evans or Qpon but I could see him playing it occasionally.

And who knows, that measurement may go up or down at the official combine.

Could we also draft Izzo? ;)


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Did you see Valentine miss get his own rebound and then get the assist Bronco. He doesn't quit on a play. I love that.


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If only there was a science to figure out who was due for a late Paul George-esque growth spurt. I guess presence of growth plates is one way, but still. That could mean a few centimeters extra to go.

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Originally Posted by JrueDat

Did you see Valentine miss get his own rebound and then get the assist Bronco. He doesn't quit on a play. I love that.


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Yeah, he seems to have a motor that doesnt quit. if you were just looking at a guys performance and skill set, he is as good as anyone in college right now it looks like.

Finished 1 assist away from a triple double.

Both the Kentucky and Michigan State games were great today. Murray taking that three in overtime waving off Ulis was clutch. Then Valentine on the double clutch contested shot to put the nail in the coffin was also impressive. Two young guys I would like to have on our team.


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Valentine is highly skilled and has a high bbiq. He is an Izzo system player that needs to play in a pass oriented scheme like Boston, Spurs, Atl or GS. He has go to the right team. If drafted by Pels, OKC or Houston, he won't be successful due to his lack of athleticism. Gentry's system requires a certain type of play by the point guard. Right now we are an OKC clone with Holiday and Davis being lite versions of OKC two stars.

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Originally Posted by durun

Valentine is highly skilled and has a high bbiq. He is an Izzo system player that needs to play in a pass oriented scheme like Boston, Spurs, Atl or GS. He has go to the right team. If drafted by Pels, OKC or Houston, he won't be successful due to his lack of athleticism. Gentry's system requires a certain type of play by the point guard. Right now we are an OKC clone with Holiday and Davis being lite versions of OKC two stars.

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The guy who installed the system for GS is our HC. I don't see how we can't be a pass oriented team. It takes guys with BBall IQ and a skill set to actually pass the ball to run that system. Until we get the players we will never be able to properly run the system and Valentine would be a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by durun

Valentine is highly skilled and has a high bbiq. He is an Izzo system player that needs to play in a pass oriented scheme like Boston, Spurs, Atl or GS. He has go to the right team. If drafted by Pels, OKC or Houston, he won't be successful due to his lack of athleticism. Gentry's system requires a certain type of play by the point guard. Right now we are an OKC clone with Holiday and Davis being lite versions of OKC two stars.

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Bro, the only reason we look like OKC right now is because Gentry - who is a D'Antoni disciple and helped create the GS system - is stuck with an injured roster and a lot of selfish players. Gentry's ideal system is ball movement, multi-dimensional, two-way, high IQ players that can play with pace, pass, shoot well and can play with and without the ball. Valentine has the tools to be perfect in that.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Bro, the only reason we look like OKC right now is because Gentry - who is a D'Antoni disciple and helped create the GS system - is stuck with an injured roster and a lot of selfish players. Gentry's ideal system is ball movement, multi-dimensional, two-way, high IQ players that can play with pace, pass, shoot well and can play with and without the ball. Valentine has the tools to be perfect in that.

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Yea I definitely agree. Gentry is not my favorite coach but his system is ball movement. The only way that system works is having guys that are actually a threat with the ball and right now we have two. Even when we had Gordon you saw better ball movement. Right now we just have nobody

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Bro, the only reason we look like OKC right now is because Gentry - who is a D'Antoni disciple and helped create the GS system - is stuck with an injured roster and a lot of selfish players. Gentry's ideal system is ball movement, multi-dimensional, two-way, high IQ players that can play with pace, pass, shoot well and can play with and without the ball. Valentine has the tools to be perfect in that.

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this

I really do like Valentine but I would really rather a 2 way player. Valentine is a smart play and in the right system can be a plus defender like JJ Reddick but not with ours you see how much out two best defender Jrue and AD have mental lapses. He's great but he's too slow to guard 2's and too small for 3's. I think I'll be comfortable between choosing between Luwawu, Murray, and Valentine once the combine comes hopeful they all participate. So I'm torn between

Murray- a combo guard with great shooting and decent size at 6'5, great shooter he can also create his own shot I'm worried about him defending the 2 ad think he may be best at scoring pg. He also kind of makes me think he may be a combo guard off the bench he give a scoring boost. He kind of reminds me of a better shooting slower Austin Rivers in the sense He's not a great fit for the 2 but is not the best decision maker at the 1.

Valentine- I'm really warming up to him he does everything. He passes no in the sense of over dribbling but quick passes, he's a great shooter, rebounds, and has a great ball IQ. I see him having the same problem defensively he's too slow to guard the 2 but too small for the 3. He reminds me of the sg version of Kylie Anderson. I want this team to have a versatile player and he's exactly that but I also want defenders. I will feel better about him if he puts up good numbers at the combine.

Luwau- He's everything you can ask for in a sf great size, defensive skill set, passing, and shooting. He struggle going to the rim and creating his own shot but has the tools to do so and cause mismatches. I think he ready to contribute right away to be a 3 and D guy but then be developed into more of a scorer.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

I really do like Valentine but I would really rather a 2 way player. Valentine is a smart play and in the right system can be a plus defender like JJ but not with ours. He's great but he's too slow to guard 2's and too small for 3's. I think I'll be comfortable between choosing between Luwawu, Murray, and Valentine once the combine comes hopeful they all participate.

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Dude you really, really need to get your fact straights on all these athleticism knocks you throw around. I mean point out the athleticism knocks but these blanket statements that they essentially won't be able to succeed on that side of the court is just unfounded.

This is Klay Thompson:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/klay-thompson

His grades on athleticism and projected defense were worse then Valentine's, Hield's, and Murray's. This is actually a pretty common thing that happens in scouting looking over the history of it. Klay is not an outlier. Same could be said for his teammate Green. Who likewise, from Michigan State was called a "tweeter" too slow to guard 3's and too small to guard 4's. Curry was knocked as too small to ever be a decent defender too.

Murray grades out less athletic then Hield and a smaller wingspan. Yet you are saying Hield and Valentine won't be capable of defending in the NBA. This just isnt true. They may never end up great defenders at the next level but they are good defenders now and there is nothing impossibly holding them back from being good defenders at the next level. Guys like Jerryd Bayless were praised for their athleticism, quickness and ability to quickly become a good defender at the next level but it turned out Bayless would go on to be a career net negative on defense. Just look at this snippet on Bayless:

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Defensively, Bayless shows a lot of potential, not just with his tools, but with the commitment he’s displayed to competing on this end of the floor. He has excellent lateral quickness, clearly having received some solid coaching on this part of his game early on his career.

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Now look at his career as a guy with all the athleticism in the world and unable to translate it, especially defensively.


If Valentine sticks, he has the ability to be like the Draymond Green of shooting guards, a great rebounder, passer and able to defend multiple positions, work in big and small lineups all while being a great shooter with a high IQ and strong motor. Run an offense at times or play excellent off the ball and make smart decisions.

EDIT: The other thing is, the SG position in the NBA has most of their best players at the position currently not really jumping out of the gym in the athleticism department: Thompson, Harden, Beal, Butler, Matthews, Allen, and Redick are not athletic freaks. They are solidly athletic but none of them jump out of the gym in the athleticism or quickness category.

Everyone gets to caught up in athleticism as the only way you can defend. Lots of good defenders in the NBA who aren't great athletes and lots of great athletes who are terrible defenders. Defense relies more on technique and just wanting to defend. Harden and Melo could be great defenders but they simply don't want to exert the energy taking away from what they do on offense.

Glad everyone is coming around on Valentine. I have been saying this guy was going to be something special. His shooting is what has really sold me that he can be a star in the NBA. When I was mentioning him a while back many were saying they would be happy with him in the late teens to early 20s. He now seems like a top 10 lock which I believed all along. You don't see guys do it all like him very often making him a rare talent. This kid has just about everything you want except the athleticism. I have said this before but I think he can be the next Manu Ginobli having a very similiar size and athleticism along with a skill set that is even better.

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Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25

Everyone gets to caught up in athleticism as the only way you can defend. Lots of good defenders in the NBA who aren't great athletes and lots of great athletes who are terrible defenders. Defense relies more on technique and just wanting to defend. Harden and Melo could be great defenders but they simply don't want to exert the energy taking away from what they do on offense.

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Exactly. Just go look at some of the best defenders you would consider at the SG position and show me how many graded out 9 and 10 in the athleticism and quickness categories? Its not that many. Which also means that a SG coming into the league isn't defending 20+ SG's a season that are jumping out of the gym.

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Originally Posted by N.O P.Bronco

Bro, the only reason we look like OKC right now is because Gentry - who is a D'Antoni disciple and helped create the GS system - is stuck with an injured roster and a lot of selfish players. Gentry's ideal system is ball movement, multi-dimensional, two-way, high IQ players that can play with pace, pass, shoot well and can play with and without the ball. Valentine has the tools to be perfect in that.

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So, name the players you consider selfish and why wouldn't they be selfish next season!

There's 100 days plus until the draft and so much can happen until then. I just hope Dell is smart enough to pick BPA rather than just need.

jacob poeltl allows us to upgrade the center position without having to spend any big money in free agency.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Dude you really, really need to get your fact straights on all these athleticism knocks you throw around. I mean point out the athleticism knocks but these blanket statements that they essentially won't be able to succeed on that side of the court is just unfounded.

This is Klay Thompson:
http://www.nbadraft.net/players/klay-thompson

His grades on athleticism and projected defense were worse then Valentine's, Hield's, and Murray's. This is actually a pretty common thing that happens in scouting looking over the history of it. Klay is not an outlier. Same could be said for his teammate Green. Who likewise, from Michigan State was called a "tweeter" too slow to guard 3's and too small to guard 4's. Curry was knocked as too small to ever be a decent defender too.

Murray grades out less athletic then Hield and a smaller wingspan. Yet you are saying Hield and Valentine won't be capable of defending in the NBA. This just isnt true. They may never end up great defenders at the next level but they are good defenders now and there is nothing impossibly holding them back from being good defenders at the next level. Guys like Jerryd Bayless were praised for their athleticism, quickness and ability to quickly become a good defender at the next level but it turned out Bayless would go on to be a career net negative on defense. Just look at this snippet on Bayless:


Now look at his career as a guy with all the athleticism in the world and unable to translate it, especially defensively.


If Valentine sticks, he has the ability to be like the Draymond Green of shooting guards, a great rebounder, passer and able to defend multiple positions, work in big and small lineups all while being a great shooter with a high IQ and strong motor. Run an offense at times or play excellent off the ball and make smart decisions.

EDIT: The other thing is, the SG position in the NBA has most of their best players at the position currently not really jumping out of the gym in the athleticism department: Thompson, Harden, Beal, Butler, Matthews, Allen, and Redick are not athletic freaks. They are solidly athletic but none of them jump out of the gym in the athleticism or quickness category.

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You're probably right guys like Dray, Dudely, Klay, and Wesly are all guys with out great athleticism but are great smart defenders. I think I'm just bias because I like player like Kawhi, Giannis, PG, and Kawhi all guys who were drafted on their defensive potential and had the tools to have a great offensive game and have prospered. But anyway most of the mock drafts have valentine in late lotto mid first round so to pick him where we are currently is a reach.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

jacob poeltl allows us to upgrade the center position without having to spend any big money in free agency.

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AD plays so much of C and as he gets older his role their will increase so it makes no sense to draft a C unless he's a can't pass prospect.

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

AD plays so much of C and as he gets older his role their will increase so it makes no sense to draft a C unless he's a can't pass prospect.

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AD plays a lot of center because Asik sucks and we have Ryno. There is no such thing as a can't miss prospect, u take the BPA, and if it's Poeltl, u take him.

AD has repeatedly said he does not want to play center, but he does it out of necessity.

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Originally Posted by durun

So, name the players you consider selfish and why wouldn't they be selfish next season!

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Not necessarily selfish but not ideal for Gentry's ideal system. Ryan Anderson and Cole are the two biggies. And neither will likely be back.

Evans is likely here for at least the beginning of the year, and there are some positive signs he is moving in the right direction. He has a lot of work to do with how to play better off the ball but I think we would be naive to think he doesnt at least improve upon where he was trending before he went down. Qpon will be healthy and has proven to be adaptable and everyone will actually have a full offseason to get the system down.

You add a guy like Valentine, Hield, Murray or by some struck of luck Ingram or Simmons and you then throw another guy coming up in the system to keep moving it in the right direction. Not hard to imagine we will be a more team orientated and cohesive unit next season if we can stay healthier.

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

jacob poeltl allows us to upgrade the center position without having to spend any big money in free agency.

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Hate to say it, but Poeltl is probably the safest pick for us considering we will not be in the top four

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Originally Posted by fullcourtpress

Hate to say it, but Poeltl is probably the safest pick for us considering we will not be in the top four

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I don't like safe picks I want a guy who has all star/superstar potential with the right drive. Those guys in this draft are Ben, Ingram, Brown, Bender, Dunn, Luwawu, Skal, Murray

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Originally Posted by 504ByrdGang

You're probably right guys like Dray, Dudely, Klay, and Wesly are all guys with out great athleticism but are great smart defenders. I think I'm just bias because I like player like Kawhi, Giannis, PG, and Kawhi all guys who were drafted on their defensive potential and had the tools to have a great offensive game and have prospered. But anyway most of the mock drafts have valentine in late lotto mid first round so to pick him where we are currently is a reach.

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Hey I feel ya on that. The other side of the coin I am speaking too is the Kawhi's, Giannis and Aminu's that come into the league with insane athleticism but are raw offensively. I admit, your favorite Luwawu has some really interesting potential. And at least already has a lot of what guys like Kawhi and Aminu did not.

If I were pressed, I have a strong suspicion though that Valentine is going to be looked at like Draymond Green was in a few years, and people are going to ask how he ever got passed up so much.

The guy has everything you would want out of a shooting guard in todays game except the elite athleticism. But looking at the landscape of SG's today and where the game is trending, I think scouts are still behind the curve here and he is getting knocked because he is a 4 year kid without elite athleticism or the prototypical frame. But he has enough athleticism and size to get by if he continues to work at it and all indications are he will.