last year's trade for Jrue Holiday was one-sided

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

You aren't addressing my issues with his logic. I understand what he means and respect his right to a different opinion. My point is he takes huge liberties assuming that any player we would have drafted would command a inflated contract coming off a performance that he would say was less impactful than Evans, Anderson, and/or Holiday after their rookie deals. Not to mention those guys will be eligible for larger contracts when it's time to reup. Which would be around the same time are drafted player would be eligible for a contract extension or going into RFA.

If he or anybody else still feel better about the signing young vets I respect it. However that specific point he is making is flawed logically.

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I mean they either are going to command huge contracts or they aren't good enough to help us. The whole idea is that we are trying to find the next big piece to put next to AD to help us win. So you have to assume he is going to play well. And If you assume he is going to play well your going to have to pay him a good amount of money because if you don't someone else will. There really isn't an in between amymore. If we are trying to find the core to out around Davis they are going to command money.

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Originally Posted by bradael

Yes, let's leave out turnovers, shooting percentage, and defense. There's a reason MCW's win shares were so low and he had a negative win shares from offense.

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In all fairness, Jrue averaged more turnovers than MCW his last year in Philly.

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Originally Posted by Nola7

Additionally,

Can we calm down a bit lol, I like Jrue as well but lets not talk as if he is a HOF player today.

Jrue Holiday Career Stats 13.5 points per 6.0 assist 3.6 rebounds.

Michael Carter Williams Rookie Season 16.7 points per 6.3 assist 6.2 rebounds

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I'm sorry, but using per game stats aren't going to mean much to many. Per game stats are worthless. It relies on minutes played, usage, pace of play, etc. The Sixers were a high pace of play team, with no one else taking the shots, rebounding, etc etc. They were in numerous blowouts where MCW was playing garbage minutes. I don't care how many points per game a guy has if it takes him a trillion shots to get there.

I'm going to repeat, MCW had a lower true shooting percentage than Austin Rivers. Austin is a year younger by the way as well. Out of the top 45 PG's in PER this season, only 3 had a TS% less than 50% and MCW was one of them.

I'm not trying to bash MCW. He seems like a good kid. But this is a PG league right now, and he is no better than one of the 5 or 10 worst PG's in the league, and that's being generous. There is talk the Sixers might trade him this offseason, going for Exum in the draft instead.

At the end of the day, my point is if anyone considers the Jrue Holiday trade a bad deal because we could have had MCW, I just can't sit here and not say anything. Jrue is IMO one of the 3 or so best defensive point guards in the league. Even on a new team, and playing partially on a stress fracture, he put up per 36:

15.3 points, 8.4 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 1.8 steals, 44.7%FG, 39% 3PT, 81% FT, 50.5% TS

And he's only a year older than MCW.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

In all fairness, Jrue averaged more turnovers than MCW his last year in Philly.

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Valid, though Jrue played 37.5 minutes per game. Technically Jrue averaged 3.55 TO per 36 minutes while MCW averaged 3.66 per 36 minutes. But point still remains, they both turned it over too much.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

I'm sorry, but using per game stats aren't going to mean much to many. Per game stats are worthless. It relies on minutes played, usage, pace of play, etc. The Sixers were a high pace of play team, with no one else taking the shots, rebounding, etc etc. They were in numerous blowouts where MCW was playing garbage minutes. I don't care how many points per game a guy has if it takes him a trillion shots to get there.

I'm going to repeat, MCW had a lower true shooting percentage than Austin Rivers. Austin is a year younger by the way as well. Out of the top 45 PG's in PER this season, only 3 had a TS% less than 50% and MCW was one of them.

I'm not trying to bash MCW. He seems like a good kid. But this is a PG league right now, and he is no better than one of the 5 or 10 worst PG's in the league, and that's being generous. There is talk the Sixers might trade him this offseason, going for Exum in the draft instead.

At the end of the day, my point is if anyone considers the Jrue Holiday trade a bad deal because we could have had MCW, I just can't sit here and not say anything. Jrue is IMO one of the 3 or so best defensive point guards in the league. Even on a new team, and playing partially on a stress fracture, he put up per 36:

15.3 points, 8.4 assists, 4.5 rebounds, 1.8 steals, 44.7%FG, 39% 3PT, 81% FT, 50.5% TS

And he's only a year older than MCW.

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Thank you for posting this. I really didn't have the energy to fight the MCW battle but this summed it up nicely.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

I think your timing is off. This team needs to try to be a contending playoff team on the front end of Anthony Davis' second contract. Not the back end when he'll be starting to salivate at other teams success and unrestricted free agency. When you aim for the back end, your window is short and you start reaching to try and add players (Hornets signing Posey) because the pressure to win or lose your superstar is imminent.

I believe the lesson Dell and Monty took from the Chris Paul situation is that they need to build their core competitive group around their future superstar much sooner. Therefor waiting until into Davis' second contract and hoping players you draft are as good as the players you can acquire today is too much of a risk. The only rookies you can't afford to lose are transcendent ones (Parker, Exum, Wiggins, Embiid), and top 5 protecting his future pick was enough protection.

Once you have your superstar, you can't afford to miss in the draft trying to put other rookies around them.

Under Dell's scenario, he'll know much sooner if he has the right guys, and if he doesn't he can reset again before it's too late.

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Respect.

If you do have to reset lets hope its not a different name same game type of situation, which more than often seems to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Thank you for posting this. I really didn't have the energy to fight the MCW battle but this summed it up nicely.

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LOL its not a battle, Without Pelican cheerleading Pom Poms in your hands there is not an outsider in any basketball circle that at this point can say we got the best of the deal. The RESULTS of the on floor play or non play prove that to be the case. Im not saying MCW is God's gift to basketball but Jrue Holiday is not either. Please. You traded 2 number one picks for a guy who missed 48 games last season. Can one slam the gavel and present the verdict at this point in all fairness NO but had we selected MCW last season we would still be exactly where we are today.

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Originally Posted by Nola7

LOL its not a battle, Without Pelican cheerleading Pom Poms in your hands there is not an outsider in any basketball circle that at this point can say we got the best of the deal. The RESULTS of the on floor play or non play prove that to be the case. Im not saying MCW is God's gift to basketball but Jrue Holiday is not either. Please. You traded 2 number one picks for a guy who missed 48 games last season. Can one slam the gavel and present the verdict at this point in all fairness NO but had we selected MCW last season we would still be exactly where we are today.

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Don't quote my post. Quote the guy who laid out the facts and owned you. Convenient how you just passed over his post.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Don't quote my post. Quote the guy who laid out the facts and owned you. Convenient how you just passed over his post.

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He killed his own argument by stating MCW is just one year older LOL.. Jrue has 4 more years experience in the League which makes a major difference. Nothing convenient about it. But since you jumped on the bus i address such.

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Originally Posted by Nola7

He killed his own argument by stating MCW is just one year older LOL.. Jrue has 4 more years experience in the League which makes a major difference. Nothing convenient about it. But since you jumped on the bus i address such.

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You're funny kid.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

I think your timing is off. This team needs to try to be a contending playoff team on the front end of Anthony Davis' second contract. Not the back end when he'll be starting to salivate at other teams success and unrestricted free agency. When you aim for the back end, your window is short and you start reaching to try and add players (Hornets signing Posey) because the pressure to win or lose your superstar is imminent.

I believe the lesson Dell and Monty took from the Chris Paul situation is that they need to build their core competitive group around their future superstar much sooner. Therefor waiting until into Davis' second contract and hoping players you draft are as good as the players you can acquire today is too much of a risk. The only rookies you can't afford to lose are transcendent ones (Parker, Exum, Wiggins, Embiid), and top 5 protecting his future pick was enough protection.

Once you have your superstar, you can't afford to miss in the draft trying to put other rookies around them.

Under Dell's scenario, he'll know much sooner if he has the right guys, and if he doesn't he can reset again before it's too late.

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This exactly what I have been trying to say. great post. It's all about timing. And I don't understand this flexibility nonsense. We are one move away from having tons of flexibility and still having the four horseman together on good deals.

I don't know about you but as a fan I don't want to wait and see how some rookie works out in the nba while precious time is ticked off the AD clock

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Not sure how this turned into a Jrue vs MCW battle seeing as the sixers picked him with their pick not ours. The trade was Noel and a 2015 pick not MCW and pick.

So really so far we are winning that trade seeing as Noel put up 0 points 0 rebounds 0 blocks because he didn't touch the court

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Originally Posted by Nola7

LOL its not a battle, Without Pelican cheerleading Pom Poms in your hands there is not an outsider in any basketball circle that at this point can say we got the best of the deal. The RESULTS of the on floor play or non play prove that to be the case. Im not saying MCW is God's gift to basketball but Jrue Holiday is not either. Please. You traded 2 number one picks for a guy who missed 48 games last season. Can one slam the gavel and present the verdict at this point in all fairness NO but had we selected MCW last season we would still be exactly where we are today.

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At the time we traded for a guy who had played 298/312 of his games. Not quite as bad.

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Originally Posted by Ludiculous

I mean they either are going to command huge contracts or they aren't good enough to help us. The whole idea is that we are trying to find the next big piece to put next to AD to help us win. So you have to assume he is going to play well. And If you assume he is going to play well your going to have to pay him a good amount of money because if you don't someone else will. There really isn't an in between amymore. If we are trying to find the core to out around Davis they are going to command money.

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If we draft a players superior to Anderson, Holiday, or Evans and have to pay them it's a great thing not a bad thing.

However he's basically saying there is no middle ground. Either the player is a keeper and will automatically be overpaid or they'll be bust/not as good as what we have. Which may hold some weight if the other 3 members of the core outside of Davis wasn't acquired on contracts that at the very least MM would himself call fair. This after all three were solid performancers while under those rookie contracts. So the theory that guys under rookie contracts can't be impactful is a gross generalization.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

If we draft a players superior to Anderson, Holiday, or Evans and have to pay them it's a great thing not a bad thing.

However he's basically saying there is no middle ground. Either the player is a keeper and will automatically be overpaid or they'll be bust/not as good as what we have. Which may hold some weight if the other 3 members of the core outside of Davis wasn't acquired on contracts that at the very least MM would himself call fair. This after all three were solid performancers while under those rookie contracts. So the theory that guys under rookie contracts can't be impactful is a gross generalization.

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Your unproven cause you're being too lazy to prove it assertion that it's better to build through the draft hinges on a very big IF...

The likelyhood of us hitting on rookies that are as good as Anderson, Evans, and Holiday, and them reaching that potential quick enough to gel around Anthony Davis and contend before he's looking at the back half of his 2nd contract is very very slim...

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

If we draft a players superior to Anderson, Holiday, or Evans and have to pay them it's a great thing not a bad thing.

However he's basically saying there is no middle ground. Either the player is a keeper and will automatically be overpaid or they'll be bust/not as good as what we have. Which may hold some weight if the other 3 members of the core outside of Davis wasn't acquired on contracts that at the very least MM would himself call fair. This after all three were solid performancers while under those rookie contracts. So the theory that guys under rookie contracts can't be impactful is a gross generalization.

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I'm not sure it's a generalization the majority of draft picks don't contribute majorly their first few years. I mean look at the lottery picks these few years and see how many of them really contribute to their team. And how well that team did, The draft is so hit or miss. to name a few: beal, thompson, lillard, Terrance jones, kawhi, kemba. non playoff teams drummond, MCW, oladipo, irving, ad. Maybe jonas, barnes. That was like 14 over the last three years. 14 out of like 45 selections.

That's like 30 something percent. And you can even argue that you take some of those away. How much did Barnes or oladipo really help out. I don't like those odds and that's only if we get in the lottery.

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It's easy to build through the draft using hindsight, when you know which players hit and which players miss. Or to get excited about the draft in the build up to the next one when everyone is enamored with the possibility of striking oil our hitting the once in a lifetime Jordan lotto.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

It's easy to build through the draft using hindsight, when you know which players hit and which players miss. Or to get excited about the draft in the build up to the next one when everyone is enamored with the possibility of striking oil our hitting the once in a lifetime Jordan lotto.

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Exactly my point is. At the time u don't know what your getting. You could be pulling a Marvin Williams just as easily as you could pull drummond or whatever. At least with players in the league you know full and well what you are getting when you sign them

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The best argument against the trade (and one no writer at NOLA.com ever uses) is what else the Pelicans could have done with those picks. And not the "having a late lottery pick in the 'greatest draft'" sad trope.

Instead of trading away Noel the Pelicans were going to pick a point guard. Every report we've ever read says that is Trey Burke.

Determining what the team does with cap space last summer is difficult. Without the Jrue trade the Pelicans would have ~$13M in cap space while retaining both Lopez and Vasquez. Let's say they still sign Tyreke Evans to the same deal, but the S&T is just the two teams (Vasquez for Evans). The only reason Lopez was included was to make the salaries match, Portland did not add much to the value Sacramento received (two second round picks, one of which is a swap right).

In that scenario the Pelicans have...

Burke/Roberts/Rivers (Evans?)
Gordon/Evans/Rivers
Miller/Thomas
Davis/Anderson
Lopez/Smith

~$3.3M in cap space
Room Exception

Hypothetically the team can still do the rest of what they did last summer (re-sign Aminu, sign Stiemsma and Morrow). The big difference is what happens this year. In this scenario the team has their pick (almost certainly still in the lottery), Lopez still under contract, and nearly $10M in cap space.

Gordon, Evans, Anderson, Davis, Lopez, Burke, Rivers all under contract.
About $10M in cap space (some of which would be occupied if the team used their 1st Round Pick)
2014 First Round Draft Pick

Now, with those assets, can you build a better team than...

Gordon, Evans, Holiday, Anderson, Davis, Rivers, Ajinca, Withey all under contract
About $6.5M in cap space

There is a realistic argument to be had both directions here. One can argue that Robin Lopez is an indirect cost of the Jrue Holiday trade (as the cap space eliminated necessitated Lopez outgoing in the Evans S&T). With the concerns on this team about having a 20-25 MPG center, having that hole filled is a net positive. However, are we sure that Trey Burke is a starting caliber PG? The argument against the Jrue Holiday trade, rationally, should not be that two draft picks are more valuable than Jrue Holiday. It should be that a tradeable asset (this year's 1st Round Pick) and the additional cap space could be more valuable, especially if Robin Lopez is still on the team.

If you take out the 8 games where Jrue was adjusting to the team and the 4 games where he was being bothered by the shin splits (which led to the stress fracture) he averaged 16/9 on 55% TS and 49% FG.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Your unproven cause you're being too lazy to prove it assertion that it's better to build through the draft hinges on a very big IF...

The likelyhood of us hitting on rookies that are as good as Anderson, Evans, and Holiday, and them reaching that potential quick enough to gel around Anthony Davis and contend before he's looking at the back half of his 2nd contract is very very slim...

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OK so you are calling me lazy yet providing nothing but your own opinion as a rebuttal.

Again the goal is to be title contenders that takes gambles. Some of you may think this core can/will be title contenders. I think this is a major disconnection as I feel this is a middle of the pack playoff team at best the way it's currently constructed and even if Davis becomes a top 5 type talent we are still a one playoff series a year win team with the roster the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Ludiculous

I'm not sure it's a generalization the majority of draft picks don't contribute majorly their first few years. I mean look at the lottery picks these few years and see how many of them really contribute to their team. And how well that team did, The draft is so hit or miss. to name a few: beal, thompson, lillard, Terrance jones, kawhi, kemba. non playoff teams drummond, MCW, oladipo, irving, ad. Maybe jonas, barnes. That was like 14 over the last three years. 14 out of like 45 selections.

That's like 30 something percent. And you can even argue that you take some of those away. How much did Barnes or oladipo really help out. I don't like those odds and that's only if we get in the lottery.

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So to be fair what is the criteria for contributing? There's guys like Tony Snell, Tim Hardaway Jr., Gorgui Dieng, Mason Plumlee, Kelly Olynyk, and Giannis Antetokounmpo who all played and play decently as rookie this year in a weak draft were 5 of the 10 players selected missed at least a dozen games due to injury.

Again if people are going to call me out for a lack of data then everybody should face the same criticism.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

OK so you are calling me lazy yet providing nothing but your own opinion as a rebuttal.

Again the goal is to be title contenders that takes gambles. Some of you may think this core can/will be title contenders. I think this is a major disconnection as I feel this is a middle of the pack playoff team at best the way it's currently constructed and even if Davis becomes a top 5 type talent we are still a one playoff series a year win team with the roster the way it is.

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Don't worry, if he doesn't like your argument, he'll cool story, bro you.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

So to be fair what is the criteria for contributing? There's guys like Tony Snell, Tim Hardaway Jr., Gorgui Dieng, Mason Plumlee, Kelly Olynyk, and Giannis Antetokounmpo who all played and play decently as rookie this year in a weak draft were 5 of the 10 players selected missed at least a dozen games due to injury.

Again if people are going to call me out for a lack of data then everybody should face the same criticism.

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I mean the only people that you named that you could argue contributed were Olynyk and Alphabet. And even then they were roll players at best. I thought we were looking for clear cut starters or all - stars through the draft that would have helped us had we gone that route. Outside Alphabet I don't really see any of those players being anything more than roll players. If anything you just helped me make my point

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Your unproven cause you're being too lazy to prove it assertion that it's better to build through the draft hinges on a very big IF...

The likelyhood of us hitting on rookies that are as good as Anderson, Evans, and Holiday, and them reaching that potential quick enough to gel around Anthony Davis and contend before he's looking at the back half of his 2nd contract is very very slim...

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That's exactly the point I was trying to make. You have about a 30% chance on hitting on a rookie who is going to do anything for the team on top of that you have to hope he compliments AD and fits the system we are trying to implement

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