Pelicans underwhelmed by Lakers' initial offers for Anthony Davis

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

I don't think some of you actually watch other teams play. I know it's hard to do, but there is no way you could actually watch other teams play and walk away with the same impression of all these players. I concede that if I had to chose today, I'd take Tatum, but only because he seems safer. It's actually close between him and Ingram. Ingram's ceiling is higher, but Tatum seems steadier. Ball is a better PG than Smart or Rozier, and actually a perfect fit next to Jrue.

You all seem to dismiss how much Brad Stevens and his coaching and system impacts what we think we're seeing with the Celtics players. Jae Crowder looked like a great player while he was in Boston, but he didn't really look that before, and hasn't looked like that since. Be forewarned on Celtics players. What you think you see could be a byproduct of Brad.

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I think that's a pretty unfair comment to everyone.

Not trying to be rude at all, but if your argument comes down to ''Well, if you guys keep disagreeing with me you just must not watch the basketball as much as I do, because if you did, you would know I'm actually right'', your argument is pretty dead in the water.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

So, it is does not raise a flag to you that the "text" went from AD's dad to Ramona Shelbourne (LA reporter)? Why not Woj or Shams? Could it be that she is shilling for Lebron/Klutch. Ainge is no newbie. He can see through that crap. It is all for the media.

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Totally agreed there. AD hasn't let his dad direct his career for him so far, his dad has been a relative non-factor. If all of a sudden, his dad starts coming out of the woodwork to make claims, but oddly enough only to the kinds of people who would want to hear that side in the first place, you start to be a little suspicious.

I don't put much claim in LaVars comments about Lonzo, but even if I did, at least I'd have some reason to: Lavar has always been a loudmouth, has always tried to control where Lonzo plays, has always threatened teams about his son if they're not the Lakers, etc, and we've seen him do it in person on TV and radio regularly.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think that's a pretty unfair comment to everyone.

Not trying to be rude at all, but if your argument comes down to ''Well, if you guys keep disagreeing with me you just must not watch the basketball as much as I do, because if you did, you would know I'm actually right'', your argument is pretty dead in the water.

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Super fans will be super fans.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

I think you are factoring in that Frank and Kendrich play for the Pelicans. If you watch all of them play, it is clear that Ball and Ingram are superior, at this point. Now, that could change as Frank and Kendrich get more playing time and look more comfortable.

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I don't agree with that assessment at all. I don't think it's clear cut that Ball and Ingram are superior. They were drafted higher and have higher "potential" but I think Lonzo is following the Elfrid Payton path almost exactly, except maybe he's even worse offensive due to how had his FT% is. When you look at on the court and actually in game playing stuff, it's a lot closer than some people are pretending.

But I'm sure by the end of the year when we've had a good stretch of seeing Frank and Kendrich play meaningful minutes more people will come to this realization.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

So, it is does not raise a flag to you that the "text" went from AD's dad to Ramona Shelbourne (LA reporter)? Why not Woj or Shams? Could it be that she is shilling for Lebron/Klutch. Ainge is no newbie. He can see through that crap. It is all for the media.

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Are you suggesting that there never was a text? I'm confused by why this matters. Ramona Shelbourne is a great NBA reporter for ESPN. She's based in L.A. But Ramona is not the "shilling" type. If she reported that she got a text from AD's dad... she got a text from a AD's dad.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Hahahaha. No, fellas. You guys have just been on the anti-Lakers stance so long you are starting to see mirages.

Again, I'd still go Boston or NY over the Laker trade. I'd probably even prefer a mystery team over the LAL deal. I don't think anyone prefers the Lakers trade as tops. We're just pointing out how ridiculous and radical people are getting against it.

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It’s fun to make fun of the offer. Seriously. I’m enjoying how much it’s not working out for them. The PELS lack of interest is embarrassing for Klutch and LA. I bet the LAKERS implode. Nothing radical about laughing at their offer. No one they offered impresses me. You gotta look at the whole player not just numbers. Lonzo is trash. He has a ton of drama and doesn’t want to be in NOLA. I’m glad to wait. I will be watching the draft. We need to get a couple guys in this lottery. I didn’t realize how toxic this was going to get. There are some great players out there. But no PELS fan should ever accept any Eric Gordons on this team ever again. We need professionals who appreciate the millions they get for playing this game.


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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Totally agreed there. AD hasn't let his dad direct his career for him so far, his dad has been a relative non-factor. If all of a sudden, his dad starts coming out of the woodwork to make claims, but oddly enough only to the kinds of people who would want to hear that side in the first place, you start to be a little suspicious.

I don't put much claim in LaVars comments about Lonzo, but even if I did, at least I'd have some reason to: Lavar has always been a loudmouth, has always tried to control where Lonzo plays, has always threatened teams about his son if they're not the Lakers, etc, and we've seen him do it in person on TV and radio regularly.

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AD's dad is at a lot of home games and used to talk crap all the time about Monty's coaching. Just because he hasn't been LaVar Ball, doesn't mean he hasn't influenced his son and been vocal. That text coming from his dad probably didn't surprise many people.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

This is how phony some of you are.

AD's dad said he doesn't want any part of Boston. Very publicly and clearly on the record. Yet we say that shouldn't impact Boston, AD didn't say it himself, and Ainge will still give up that farm even if AD's people continue to loudly say he won't resign in Boston.

Lonzo's dad said he would prefer to be rerouted to another team where there isn't an established PG. And we flip out thinking that should have some impact on whether or not Dell/Loomis consider a trade with the Lakers! A trade where Ingram, who hasn't said anything, would be the primary player piece coming back - not even Lonzo!

Attachment 6386

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this had been said by other but hey...AD cant come out and say he will not stay in boston if traded there so we all should know his dad is his mouth piece for him....his dad cant get fined.....and lonzo camp is looking at jrue being the PG as to the SG...lonzo is a pure PG like rondo and would be perfect to run this team to keep jrue from making decisions and have him just focusing on scoring on offense....

also some posters like the lakers deal now because we dont know a better deal thats out until after this season is over when other teams can send better deals our way for AD...i think we all know AD is not going any where until july or august at the earliest....

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think that's a pretty unfair comment to everyone.

Not trying to be rude at all, but if your argument comes down to ''Well, if you guys keep disagreeing with me you just must not watch the basketball as much as I do, because if you did, you would know I'm actually right'', your argument is pretty dead in the water.

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That's exactly what I'm saying. There is no way you guys can watch all these players, and come away thinking Kenrich is as good as Ingram! No way! Impossible!

I stand by my comments 100%! lol

In just the last week, you guys could not have seen Ingram go for 36 against Butler and Simmons, and have seen anything from Kenrich that makes you think he's the better player or prospect.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

So, it is does not raise a flag to you that the "text" went from AD's dad to Ramona Shelbourne (LA reporter)? Why not Woj or Shams? Could it be that she is shilling for Lebron/Klutch. Ainge is no newbie. He can see through that crap. It is all for the media.

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you dont think AD dad is talking for him?....i get the LA versus boston trade battle in lowering a bid but you dont take a lil serious from coming from his dad because they already been warned about talking?......AD said he will take his dad advice on where to play so his dad being his mouth piece is to be taken a lil serious when it comes down to cheating us out the best deal we can get....

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is no way you guys can watch all these players, and come away thinking Kenrich is as good as Ingram! No way! Impossible!

I stand by my comments 100%! lol

In just the last week, you guys could not have seen Ingram go for 36 against Butler and Simmons, and have seen anything from Kenrich that makes you think he's the better player or prospect.

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Taking one example and branding everyone with the same opinion (one I don’t agree with) is a cheap way to win an argument. Might want to take a few steps back chief

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

That's exactly what I'm saying. There is no way you guys can watch all these players, and come away thinking Kenrich is as good as Ingram! No way! Impossible!

I stand by my comments 100%! lol

In just the last week, you guys could not have seen Ingram go for 36 against Butler and Simmons, and have seen anything from Kenrich that makes you think he's the better player or prospect.

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Yes, I saw Ingram go for 36 against Butler and Simmons.

I also saw him go for 8 on 3 of 10 shooting against Portland this year.
And when he went for 12 on 5 of 17 against Sacramento.
And when he went for 8 on 1 of 9 against OKC (in 37 minutes, no less!)
And when he went for 13 on 5 of 16 against Minnesota.

You're the one who got upset at me for making a joke 1 game comparison, and yet when I point out the 140+ game history of Ingram being disappointing, you go ''Oh come on, you could not say that if you saw him go for 36 against Butler!''

Where's the consistency? Either we can make 1 game comparisons, or we can't. If we can, then it's fair for me to say that Ingram has underperformed in many individual games compared to someone like Frank despite having much more opportunity. If we can't, then you have to go based on track record, and Ingram's isn't exactly impressive.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

It’s fun to make fun of the offer. Seriously. I’m enjoying how much it’s not working out for them. The PELS lack of interest is embarrassing for Klutch and LA. I bet the LAKERS implode. Nothing radical about laughing at their offer. No one they offered impresses me. You gotta look at the whole player not just numbers. Lonzo is trash. He has a ton of drama and doesn’t want to be in NOLA. I’m glad to wait. I will be watching the draft. We need to get a couple guys in this lottery. I didn’t realize how toxic this was going to get. There are some great players out there. But no PELS fan should ever accept any Eric Gordons on this team ever again. We need professionals who appreciate the millions they get for playing this game.


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Basically this.

I'm not saying that just because Lonzo is trash now, he'll be trash forever. Maybe he won't, he's still young, he could turn a corner and become a reasonable offensive player and then it's a different story. Same for Kuzma, he's a trash defender and shoots badly, but maybe he won't forever, he's 24 soon which isn't young but it's not old either. Same for Ingram, there's a possibility he'll fix his game up and be better. I'm not denying any of that.

It's just funny to me that the Lakers, possibly the second most arrogant team in the league after Golden State, look so pathetic here. They're throwing trash at us, hoping that it will convince us to part with the Golden Goose and just getting owned at every possible turn. It's funny. It's funny to watch their fans get upset about how much their offer disappoints, when they're the same people three weeks ago who were saying AD was destined to be a Laker by the deadline.

I'm excited to watch the draft. I'm excited to have GOOD picks, or multiple decent picks, not the singular 16th pick or whatever the Lakers offer will have in it. I've excited to get young players with potential, without toxic drama attached to them like Lonzo, without the baggage of three years of mediocrity like Ingram, and just watch a team grow together and develop chemistry. I'm excited to make big moves instead of shuffling picks around to try and escape from bad contracts from 5 years ago. I don't understand why everyone seems to eager to just eat whatever mediocrity Magic Johnson is willing to dish up without even really giving the other offers a shot.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yes, I saw Ingram go for 36 against Butler and Simmons.

I also saw him go for 8 on 3 of 10 shooting against Portland this year.
And when he went for 12 on 5 of 17 against Sacramento.
And when he went for 8 on 1 of 9 against OKC (in 37 minutes, no less!)
And when he went for 13 on 5 of 16 against Minnesota.

You're the one who got upset at me for making a joke 1 game comparison, and yet when I point out the 140+ game history of Ingram being disappointing, you go ''Oh come on, you could not say that if you saw him go for 36 against Butler!''

Where's the consistency? Either we can make 1 game comparisons, or we can't. If we can, then it's fair for me to say that Ingram has underperformed in many individual games compared to someone like Frank despite having much more opportunity. If we can't, then you have to go based on track record, and Ingram's isn't exactly impressive.

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1. I'm not upset. I'm commenting on a message board while putting together a puzzle with a toddler and tossing a tennis ball to a dog to keep him from messing up the puzzle! This has a 3rd of my attention. Yesterday I was running on my treadmill, watching two games, and scrolling through twitter. Before that I was at a kids birthday party, talking Pels and preschool costs with the dads, while periodically checking the board. Again, let's all keep perspective.

Now that that's out of the way...

It's crazy to look at single games or small sample sizes to make judgement on these players. Tatum had 3 games in January where he went like a combined 6/30 and scored 5ppg and 5rpg. The Celtics won all three of those games, but they were close games, and Tatum was a non factor on both ends. If you compared any of those performances to Kenrich's best games, you'd think Kenrich was a future star. The more you watch however, the more you actually know! I prefer Tatum to Ingram, because I've seen the lows and highs from both. But it's close. My judgements will never have anything to do with the small sample size! It comes from watching a ton of basketball over a long period of time. I'm old! LoL!

"I'm a man! I'm 40" - Mike Gundy ;-)

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Don't post often, but read all the time and I've been playing around on the trade machine like everyone else on here I'm sure. I tinkered and came up with this trade. If we are able to get Ingram, Kuz, Ball, Zubac, and two first I think we should consider trying to get a really good player. If Jrue stays, he doesn't want to go through a full rebuild. I also enjoy watching basketball and don't want to see it leave my hometown.

Pelicans get two young prospects with a lot of potential. I agree Tatum has more potential than both of them, but in this case we get a bonafide baller in McCollum. We ship off the Lakers first this year to either Wizards or Blazers. Whichever you think needs it to get this done. I would then package Randle and Moore with our lottery protected 2020 pick for Vucevic.

Next year's roster:

Jrue - Jackson/2019 lottery pick
McCollum - Jackson/2019 lottery pick
Ingram - Harkless/Kenny Hustle
Kuzma - Diallo/2019 MLE
Vucevic - Okafor/2019 MLE

That's three all star caliber players and two very young players with great potential. This is a team that with the right coaching can compete for playoffs next year. If Ingram, Kuz, Jackson, or 2019 lottery pick blow up then we can all get really excited. We can resign Vucevic with bird rights. I'm also aware that Jrue wants to be off Ball. He can be with this roster. McCollum, Ingram, and Kuz are above average ball handlers for their position. At the end of the day it doesn't matter your position, if you are THE MAN on a team you're going to have the ball in your hands. I want to see Jrue lead this team, it's his boat now. #CaptainJrue

Lakers get their guy. We can send back minimum contracts since they are sending out so many people. They also keep Hart and have veterans to compete this year. They will also be blessed by the buyout gods and be able to retool that way.

Portland finally breaks up their dynamic, but underporming duo. They get a guy they have strong interest in, Porter. He's locked up on basically the same deal as McCollum. They also get Mirotic and his bird rights. Lonzo Ball will be the new backcourt mate for Dame. Lonzo is a better passer and defender over McCollum. And has the height to defend bigger guards. He is also locked up on a friendly and controllable deal. They also get off of deals for Turner and Harkless. Adding Lance is for salary purposes, but would actually help them in the playoffs this year.

Wizards get some major salary cap relief. A solid player in Turner who can help them compete for playoffs next year when Wall returns. They may also be able to bring back Ariza and Satoransky with some of their savings. They also get Zubac as a nice prospect. I think they would get the Lakers 2019 pick as well. But, it could go to Blazers since they are losing second best player in this deal.

Very high floor for the Pels, but also a high celining because of potential from Ingram, Kuz, and our lottery pick.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

1. I'm not upset. I'm commenting on a message board while putting together a puzzle with a toddler and tossing a tennis ball to a dog to keep him from messing up the puzzle! This has a 3rd of my attention. Yesterday I was running on my treadmill, watching two games, and scrolling through twitter. Before that I was at a kids birthday party, talking Pels and preschool costs with the dads, while periodically checking the board. Again, let's all keep perspective.

Now that that's out of the way...

It's crazy to look at single games or small sample sizes to make judgement on these players. Tatum had 3 games in January where he went like a combined 6/30 and scored 5ppg and 5rpg. The Celtics won all three of those games, but they were close games, and Tatum was a non factor on both ends. If you compared any of those performances to Kenrich's best games, you'd think Kenrich was a future star. The more you watch however, the more you actually know! I prefer Tatum to Ingram, because I've seen the lows and highs from both. But it's close. My judgements will never have anything to do with the small sample size! It comes from watching a ton of basketball over a long period of time. I'm old! LoL!

"I'm a man! I'm 40" - Mike Gundy ;-)

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Your literal response to a joke was to bring up a single game sample. Come on. If you look at Ingram over the course of his entire, three year career, you know he's a disappointment thus far. There isn't really much of a debate about it. Like I said, maybe he'll change, certainly that's possible, and nobody is a lost cause at 21 (or rather, close to nobody), but to pretend like he's somehow been some kind of beacon of potential is just flat out imagination. Maybe you see it, in the vague sense in which people see potential, but it's not reflected in any fact. Bobby Portis has good games sometimes, we gonna pretend like he's some untapped star?

I watch a lot of basketball. I've watched every single Pels game for the last 5 years or so (and most of them from the previous to years as well, but just not all), almost every single Cavs game during Lebron's second tenure, every single OKC game during KD's last season through Westbrook's MVP season, every single Spurs game for Kawhi's last two years, every Knicks game last season, and so many other games besides, as well as of course every single playoff game. Nobody saying ''the more you watch, the more you know!'' will ever phase me, because although I'm relatively late in terms of total number of years (only been an NBA fan since 2012), I'm fully confident that I've watched more basketball since that time than 90% of people.

That also doesn't make me an authority. You can watch every single game of every team, every year, and still be wrong. So the whole, ''you'd agree with me if you just watched more basketball'' argument is dead on arrival. It's a ridiculous argument that has zero bearing on reality.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Your literal response to a joke was to bring up a single game sample. Come on. If you look at Ingram over the course of his entire, three year career, you know he's a disappointment thus far. There isn't really much of a debate about it. Like I said, maybe he'll change, certainly that's possible, and nobody is a lost cause at 21 (or rather, close to nobody), but to pretend like he's somehow been some kind of beacon of potential is just flat out imagination. Maybe you see it, in the vague sense in which people see potential, but it's not reflected in any fact. Bobby Portis has good games sometimes, we gonna pretend like he's some untapped star?

I watch a lot of basketball. I've watched every single Pels game for the last 5 years or so (and most of them from the previous to years as well, but just not all), almost every single Cavs game during Lebron's second tenure, every single OKC game during KD's last season through Westbrook's MVP season, every single Spurs game for Kawhi's last two years, every Knicks game last season, and so many other games besides, as well as of course every single playoff game. Nobody saying ''the more you watch, the more you know!'' will ever phase me, because although I'm relatively late in terms of total number of years (only been an NBA fan since 2012), I'm fully confident that I've watched more basketball since that time than 90% of people.

That also doesn't make me an authority. You can watch every single game of every team, every year, and still be wrong. So the whole, ''you'd agree with me if you just watched more basketball'' argument is dead on arrival. It's a ridiculous argument that has zero bearing on reality.

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Ok

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Ok

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Glad that's sorted.

Here's my favorite fake trade of the day if we have to deal with the Lakers:

Lakers
AD
Vucevic

Magic
Wall
Satoransky
Zubac
Kuz

Wizards
Mirotic
Ross
Randle
Ingram
Ball

Pels
KCP
Beasley
Beal
Lakers 2019 unprotected
Lakers 2021 top 4 protected

Lakers do this because they actually have a shot in the West this year with that line up and it's basically one of the deals Dell was offered by Magic (reportedly)

Magic do this because they need to take the risk and are basically being given Zubac/Kuz/Satoranski to take on Wall's risk. All they're giving up are expiring contracts. It's a risk, but it's worth it.

Wizards do this because they clear a crap ton of cap space and get to start over with Ball/Ingram and Mirotic's bird rights. Getting off of Wall is huge for them. I'd assume they might also trade Porter to kick the rebuild into full gear.

Pelicans do this because they're basically going all in on a Beal/Jrue backcourt. They'll have 2 1st this year, and 2 1st in a deep 2021 draft (HS players added). Beal is significantly better than any of Tatum/Brown/Ingram/Ball.

It's fake. It's flawed. But it's my favorite fake trade of the day ---- if we feel like we have to do a deal with Lakers before the deadline.

Tatum comes into the league on an established team with three star players with an established coach , the Lakers young guys come into the league where they are the focal point on a team that has been a wreck the last five years but let’s not take l that into account at all fact is if you watch the games Ingram is more talented than Tatum and the rest of the Lakers guys are better than the rest of the Celtics guys . Now the draft picks are better but no pick in the draft including Zion is a guarantee decent player in this league .


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Then why have they regressed this year when surrounded by veterans, one of which is the best player in the world and top 2 ever?

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Then why have they regressed this year when surrounded by veterans, one of which is the best player in the world and top 2 ever?

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Lol. Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie... Hall of Fame, All NBA, All Star, experienced vet players... all struggled initially playing with Lebron. Lakers have also dealt with a lot of injuries.

Yeah, if Ingram and Ball were any good we would be reminded of this every time we turned the tv on (because the media loves it when the Lakers have success).

Ain’t nobody got time for that turd sandwich they are offering.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Lol. Bosh, Wade, Love, Kyrie... Hall of Fame, All NBA, All Star, experienced vet players... all struggled initially playing with Lebron. Lakers have also dealt with a lot of injuries.

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That's because those were the 3 key guys on the team. The entire argue that was presented just now was that Ingram and Ball have been thrust into the spotlight and the focus of the team and if they could have taken a reduced role they'd be better.

My point still stands. Why have they regressed once veterans were added and their role/responsibility reduced? That's the exact opposite of what we should expect.

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Originally Posted by MistaWhoDat

Tatum comes into the league on an established team with three star players with an established coach , the Lakers young guys come into the league where they are the focal point on a team that has been a wreck the last five years but let’s not take l that into account at all fact is if you watch the games Ingram is more talented than Tatum and the rest of the Lakers guys are better than the rest of the Celtics guys . Now the draft picks are better but no pick in the draft including Zion is a guarantee decent player in this league .


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You can make the opposite argument about Tatum and Ingram. There was a lot less pressure on Ingram and co to perform right away, so they were allowed to develop without interruption. Tatum was thrown into a competitive situation right away and he is succeeding.

Also, teams will take the Celtics much more seriously than they will take a Lebronless Lakers crew.