Andre Iguodala opts out

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

Iggy will help us win games in the short term, but long-term doesn't do anything for me.

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What he does short term is establish a winning team. Bringing fans, showing our young guys what winning about. It 100% better for a youngster to win when you then lose.

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Originally Posted by Trell

??? Peja <<<< Iggy ... This is no comparison, Peja was nothing be a good jump shooter who definitely received to much money for his skills. Iggy is an all around guy who does everything. C'mon man it would be great to sign him for 8-9 million but that's unrealistic, it'll be a surprise if he accepts an offer that cheap.

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You clearly never watched Peja in his Sacramento days.

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Originally Posted by Trell

??? Peja <<<< Iggy ... This is no comparison, Peja was nothing be a good jump shooter who definitely received to much money for his skills. Iggy is an all around guy who does everything. C'mon man it would be great to sign him for 8-9 million but that's unrealistic, it'll be a surprise if he accepts an offer that cheap.

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Peja in 2007-2008 had as much impact as Iggy in any season. Let's not forget Peja in his Sacramento days. But Iggy is a glorified role player who will command way too much at the age of 30 compared to younger FAs who will be effective at way less the price. Iggy doesn't do everything either. He doesn't shoot well and his offense is unreliable in big moments. If we're gonna pay a wing player 11+ million, he better be able to score consistently especially when the game is on the line.

All the people saying Iggy is overrated and overpaid, CAN NOT be happy paying Gordon $15m...

"glorified role players" help teams compete for Championships.

And I'd argue the basketball minds at USA Basketball, think Iggy is something more than a "glorified role player". I trust their assessment that he is one of the top 12 players to have on board if you're building a team.

I guess my question to all those saying Iggy isn't worth it:

How would you spend that same $13 million. I think what we will see is that people will have huge problems with all those players and/or plans. That is my thing with Iggy: Is it ideal? No. Is it safer and/or better than most, if not all other options? My answer is yes. So, instead of this: Is Iggy worth it debate, share with us how you would spend the $13 million.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

All the people saying Iggy is overrated and overpaid, CAN NOT be happy paying Gordon $15m...

"glorified role players" help teams compete for Championships.

And I'd argue the basketball minds at USA Basketball, think Iggy is something more than a "glorified role player". I trust their assessment that he is one of the top 12 players to have on board if you're building a team.

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I'm not happy with paying Gordon 15 million either, but at least he can create his own shot on a consistent basis.

Its not like Iggy's done much when it comes to winning other than the usual 1st and 2nd round exits. No reason to pay a role player 10+ million when there are better cost-efficient players out there who are younger and not declining. He's not worth more than 8-9 million on a championship level team especially with his offense inconsistent.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I guess my question to all those saying Iggy isn't worth it:

How would you spend that same $13 million. I think what we will see is that people will have huge problems with all those players and/or plans. That is my thing with Iggy: Is it ideal? No. Is it safer and/or better than most, if not all other options? My answer is yes. So, instead of this: Is Iggy worth it debate, share with us how you would spend the $13 million.

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Why not look to spend 6-7 million on a player like Martell Webster and supplement the bench with the rest of the money. I'm not sure how much cap space we have this season, but long-term I worry when its time to resign Davis/Anderson and this year's draft picks and possible upgrades, will Iggy hurt us like Peja did? Honestly, Iggy isn't worth more than what Anderson is making who happens to be much younger and more productive the last couple of seasons overall. Iggy is fine at 8-9 million. If he wants more, pass. He's not taking us over the contending hump anyway especially if Gordon continues to be a China doll and Davis doesn't become a perennial All-Star player.

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Originally Posted by Trell

??? Peja <<<< Iggy ... This is no comparison, Peja was nothing be a good jump shooter who definitely received to much money for his skills. Iggy is an all around guy who does everything. C'mon man it would be great to sign him for 8-9 million but that's unrealistic, it'll be a surprise if he accepts an offer that cheap.

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...have you ever watched a game of stojakovic in your life? Seriously.

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Why not look to spend 6-7 million on a player like Martell Webster and supplement the bench with the rest of the money. I'm not sure how much cap space we have this season, but long-term I worry when its time to resign Davis/Anderson and this year's draft picks and possible upgrades, will Iggy hurt us like Peja did? Honestly, Iggy isn't worth more than what Anderson is making who happens to be much younger and more productive the last couple of seasons overall. Iggy is fine at 8-9 million. If he wants more, pass. He's not taking us over the contending hump anyway especially if Gordon continues to be a China doll and Davis doesn't become a perennial All-Star player.

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My thoughts exactly

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

I think this is the main thing I see people seem to ignore about this team. Outside of Davis you have any consistency about our core. Honestly we still don't know what Davis will or won't be. The next guy I see spoken about as part of our core is Anderson and I've seen several fans (me included) that for the right trade would deal Anderson.

I agree if we can get Iguodala for around that price I'm all in but an 8 figure a year deal just seems too much for a team with so many question marks.

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What do you define as a core? We don't need a whole starting 5 who's dominant. We need role players who can do a job that fits their ability, and you don't need the lottery to find this player in mid or late rounds in the draft. What Iggy we become an actual playoff threat as our young guys develop.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

Its not like Iggy's done much when it comes to winning other than the usual 1st and 2nd round exits. No reason to pay a role player 10+ million when there are better cost-efficient players out there who are younger and not declining. He's not worth more than 8-9 million on a championship level team especially with his offense inconsistent.

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Do you consider Ryan Anderson a role player?

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Originally Posted by Bee-Fense

Do you consider Ryan Anderson a role player?

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Very good complimentary player. Like Iggy. I think Ryno's salary is similar to what Iggy should be making, but Anderson is slightly more valuable since his shooting is an elite level for his position and in general. Iggy isn't worth any more.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I guess my question to all those saying Iggy isn't worth it:

How would you spend that same $13 million. I think what we will see is that people will have huge problems with all those players and/or plans. That is my thing with Iggy: Is it ideal? No. Is it safer and/or better than most, if not all other options? My answer is yes. So, instead of this: Is Iggy worth it debate, share with us how you would spend the $13 million.

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I wouldn't.

Would you rather lose flexibility and spend $13 million for a "leader"? Or would you keep the flexibility and spend it when we become a good team and need a guy to help us make that next step?

In other words, would you rather use $13 million to go from bottom of the west to playoff team?

Or would you rather go from playoff team to championship team?

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Originally Posted by Nola3

You clearly never watched Peja in his Sacramento days.

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I didn't. I'm judging from what I seen him do in NOLA, and that was just knock down shots and make free throws when not INJURED. Iggy will contribute offensively and defensively (what I love about his game mostly). He also can bring the ball up court and distribute the ball. I don't think he's worth 13 million, but sometimes you have to overpay for talent as we did with Gordon.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

And as a small market we can't be frivolously either.

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Dallas and Houston already have Iggy as plan b if either team does not win the Howard/CPME sweepstakes. So it may come down to small market, big market.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

Very good complimentary player. Like Iggy. I think Ryno's salary is similar to what Iggy should be making, but Anderson is slightly more valuable since his shooting is an elite level for his position and in general. Iggy isn't worth any more.

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See, I disagree on the last part because Iguodala's defense is at an elite level for his position in general and I think elite defense helps the team as a whole more than elite shooting. Denver went from the absolute worst defense without Iggy on the floor to the 7th best when he was on. Therefore, in my mind at least, Iguodala should be worth a little bit more. To me Iguodala's worth about 10-11 million, Anderson about 9-10. They're both around top 35-50 players in the NBA.

If we end up paying 2 million more annually (13 million) than that I don't mind. Players are hardly ever paid what they're really worth (especially in the $10 million range) and to me the bigger deal is getting 3 years rather than 4. The price isn't as important as the length as long as the price is close to an appropriate value.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

Why not look to spend 6-7 million on a player like Martell Webster and supplement the bench with the rest of the money. I'm not sure how much cap space we have this season, but long-term I worry when its time to resign Davis/Anderson and this year's draft picks and possible upgrades, will Iggy hurt us like Peja did? Honestly, Iggy isn't worth more than what Anderson is making who happens to be much younger and more productive the last couple of seasons overall. Iggy is fine at 8-9 million. If he wants more, pass. He's not taking us over the contending hump anyway especially if Gordon continues to be a China doll and Davis doesn't become a perennial All-Star player.

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Webster isn't anywhere near the player that Iggy is.
Anderson does 1 thing better than Iggy: Shoot. Everything else Iggy does better.
If Davis doesn't become a perennial All Star we aren't going to be contenders no matter how we spend our cap.

If you give Iggy a three year deal, he expires along with Gordon and Anderson, right as Davis/Rivers hit restricted free agency.
If you give Iggy a four year deal, he clears a lot of cap space 1 year into Davis' 2nd contract.
Giving Iggy a big contract now, in no way handicaps our cap in the future.

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Originally Posted by Bee-Fense

See, I disagree on the last part because Iguodala's defense is at an elite level for his position in general and I think elite defense helps the team as a whole more than elite shooting. Denver went from the absolute worst defense without Iggy on the floor to the 7th best when he was on. Therefore, in my mind at least, Iguodala should be worth a little bit more. To me Iguodala's worth about 10-11 million, Anderson about 9-10. They're both around top 35-50 players in the NBA.

If we end up paying 2 million more annually (13 million) than that I don't mind. Players are hardly ever paid what they're really worth (especially in the $10 million range) and to me the bigger deal is getting 3 years rather than 4. The price isn't as important as the length as long as the price is close to an appropriate value.

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Anderson's shooting really valuable too and while Iggy's defense is valuable, his lack of shooting hurts too. He's basically a bigger Rondo.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

Anderson's shooting really valuable too and while Iggy's defense is valuable, his lack of shooting hurts too. He's basically a bigger Rondo.

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Anderson's shooting is valuable yes, but his defense and defensive rebounding hurts too. Both players have weaknesses, but I'm taking defense over anything else personally. Defense wins championships.

Also Iguodala is at least a threat outside. Rondo never takes a 3 ever. Iguodala does have the capability of getting hot (see 2013 playoffs, 2011-2012 season) and being dangerous from there. It's still a weakness, yes, but statistically he doesn't hurt you on offense, especially when he's playing SF. Denver played him at SG for most of last season. When he played at SF in Denver and Philly (where he played almost 100% of the time in Philly) he was much better offensively.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Iguodala will make everyone of the young guys better and help establish a winning culture.

The OKC model for building a team was luck. The Miami model requires a beach, Cubans, and an established star.

You have to believe the Spurs model is what we're following, and Duncan benefitted a ton from vets and the establishment of a winning culture early in his career. Winning is something you learn how to do from winners.

How does this young team develop that if they don't bring in the right vets that can lead and give them a realist playoff goal to compete for every year?

Tis is my biggest problem with Gordon (other than injuries). At $15m a year he's not a leader and doesn't establish culture.

I'd give Iggy whatever it takes. Iggy, Gordon, and Ryno will all create cap space when they expire for us to build around AD and the other young guys when the championship window really opens up. But over the next 3 years, the young guys need to learn what it means to play meaningful spring basketball, competing for a spot in the playoffs.

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So the OKC model is luck, but the SAS model isn't? They are a core team of Duncan/Parker/Ginobili with a bunch of role players. Those three all drafted by the Spurs. Even if you want to give Leonard a core spit he's still a drafted player.

I think too much is made of veteran leadership. Do a guys like Cousins or McGee strongly benefit from having vets sure. However looking at a kid like Trey Burke who is going to be a leader and is self driven I don't think veteran leadership will make or break him.

What has Iguodala won? Sure he has experience, but how can we rely on him to bring a winning culture? Again I'm not against leadership or vets however I am against signing long term big money deals to players who are at the tail end of their careers on a team with so much underdeveloped players.

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Originally Posted by PrimeTimeWhoDat

If Andre Iguodala can play small forward at 6'6" 207, why can't Tyreke Evans play the position at 6'6" 220?

Iggy: age 29, 6'11" wingspan & 8'9.25" reach
Career stats: 15.1 ppg, 5.8 rpg, 4.9 apg, 1.8 spg

Tyreke: age 23, 6'11.25" wingspan & 8'8" reach
Career stats: 17.5 ppg, 4.8 rpg, 4.8 apg, 1.4 spg

I think they look pretty similar stat wise with Tyreke scoring more and Iggy rebounding more. Tyreke mostly played guard, so by moving to small forward his rebounding numbers would likely increase. I would rather add the younger player with room to improve instead of an older player that will not improve much if at all.

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Not an equal comparison since they both played different positions to get those stats. No telling if Evans assist numbers would drop if he no longer is forced to play PG. His points might even drop. No telling what his rebounding numbers would do.

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Originally Posted by Trell

What do you define as a core? We don't need a whole starting 5 who's dominant. We need role players who can do a job that fits their ability, and you don't need the lottery to find this player in mid or late rounds in the draft. What Iggy we become an actual playoff threat as our young guys develop.

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I think to be a title contender you either need two or three dominant player(Jordan/Pippen,O'Neal/Bryant,Garnett/Allen/Pierce,James/Wade/Bosh) or you need to be a complete team like the early 2000 Pistons, the Pacers or the Grizzs. They mostly have a team built around guys they draft or guys that were brought in in reasonable contracts. With the new tax penalties it's going to be that much more difficult to do. Giving Iggy 11 plus makes it improbable to build the team model and he is no where near a big three or "batman or robin" type player.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

And as a small market we can't be frivolously either.

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This team had much more going against it than being a small market. Matter of fact, those other items are probably what kept big names away from here, not being a small market, which New Orleans does not neatly fit that definition to begin with.

The ownership, training facility, tv and radio situation all made this franchise look much more bush league than the market size. That's all changed now. Not saying they can spend like the Lakers or Knicks but can't be compared to 2008 either. More revenue streams in the pipeline.

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Originally Posted by PowerPel

Dallas and Houston already have Iggy as plan b if either team does not win the Howard/CPME sweepstakes. So it may come down to small market, big market.

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If Iggy or any vet can't see the vision than we move on. Killing our cap space to get a non difference maker is no the way too go IMO.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

This team had much more going against it than being a small market. Matter of fact, those other items are probably what kept big names away from here, not being a small market, which New Orleans does not neatly fit that definition to begin with.

The ownership, training facility, tv and radio situation all made this franchise look much more bush league than the market size. That's all changed now. Not saying they can spend like the Lakers or Knicks but can't be compared to 2008 either. More revenue streams in the pipeline.

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We are in much better hands under Benson than Shinn I don't see how anybody can disagree with that however I don't think at the end of the day it'll change significantly overnight.