Please do not trade Zion or Ingram for Durant

I would want a few more pieces in a three way trade or straight up with Nets before I am willing to say bye to multiple first round picks.

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Originally Posted by Lee2000

You are assuming Ingram and multiple first round picks are a fair price. I don't see that "universe"

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And if KD was on our team you wouldn?t think Ingram and picks would be a fair price either. I can point to thousands of studies on bias of our own things, but people deny they suffer from it. Which is fine. But I would bet my life that if we had a happy KD on this team next to Zion and CJ and some blogger posted an idea of BI and picks for KD to line up with Zions timeline, we would be roasting that person. Just how humans are programmed

Any analysis of KD vs Ingram presumes that Ingram is re-signed in 2025 by the Pels. If he doesn't, its safe to assume KD's numbers are better than Ingram's during the next three seasons unless KD gets hurt. Durant is all NBA 1st or second team, 10 times in his career. Ingram has never done either. I have little reason to think he will be a top ten NBA player in a season more than once during his career when Giannis, Luka, Tatum, Booker, etc are contemporaries.


On the downside, KD will make approximately 20 million per season more than Ingram during that time. That limits who else you can sign to PG or C. If the Pels extend CJ, which it appears they will, have decided their big 3 are Zion, CJ and Ingram. If you don't see a championship window in there during the next 3 seasons with a supporting cast of Herb, JV, etc. you make the trade.

Clearly Ingram will be better for longer than KD but he's going to demand a contract like KD's current one in 2024/2025. Given what we know of Zion's injury issues and CJ's age, the window to win is smaller than we think.

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Originally Posted by liger420

Any analysis of KD vs Ingram presumes that Ingram is re-signed in 2025 by the Pels. If he doesn't, its safe to assume KD's numbers are better than Ingram's during the next three seasons unless KD gets hurt. Durant is all NBA 1st or second team, 10 times in his career. Ingram has never done either. I have little reason to think he will be a top ten NBA player in a season more than once during his career when Giannis, Luka, Tatum, Booker, etc are contemporaries.


On the downside, KD will make approximately 20 million per season more than Ingram during that time. That limits who else you can sign to PG or C. If the Pels extend CJ, which it appears they will, have decided their big 3 are Zion, CJ and Ingram. If you don't see a championship window in there during the next 3 seasons with a supporting cast of Herb, JV, etc. you make the trade.

Clearly Ingram will be better for longer than KD but he's going to demand a contract like KD's current one in 2024/2025. Given what we know of Zion's injury issues and CJ's age, the window to win is smaller than we think.

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Be careful.... every account that is not overly optimistic has been labeled as a 'Mac burner' account. Your next post should be a picture of you writing your next post with a newspaper dated today

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

And if KD was on our team you wouldn?t think Ingram and picks would be a fair price either. I can point to thousands of studies on bias of our own things, but people deny they suffer from it. Which is fine. But I would bet my life that if we had a happy KD on this team next to Zion and CJ and some blogger posted an idea of BI and picks for KD to line up with Zions timeline, we would be roasting that person. Just how humans are programmed

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But that is not the situation. He is not a happy KD on the Nets. He is demanding a trade, so a BI and multiple 1sts would be a great return given what reportedly has been potential trade offers from other teams.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

But that is not the situation. He is not a happy KD on the Nets. He is demanding a trade, so a BI and multiple 1sts would be a great return given what reportedly has been potential trade offers from other teams.

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Again, this is flipping it. And it presupposes that KD would happily come to the Pels (which would be necessary for Griff to pull the trigger)

So, in a "flip it" scenario, you do have a happy with the Pels scenario on this side. Its very hard to do. Peoples minds actively fight against it. But if you really, really flip it and try to imagine yourself, truly, in that flipped universe, it would require far more than BI and some picks for you to be willing to do it IMO.

Also, I keep seeing this -- you dont just have to beat the best offer of the other 28 teams. You have to meet the threshhold for the Nets. They dont have to do anything here. This isnt an item up for auction and you just have to beat the best competitor by 1 cent. You gonna meet or go above the seller's minimum sell price.

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Originally Posted by liger420

Any analysis of KD vs Ingram presumes that Ingram is re-signed in 2025 by the Pels. If he doesn't, its safe to assume KD's numbers are better than Ingram's during the next three seasons unless KD gets hurt. Durant is all NBA 1st or second team, 10 times in his career. Ingram has never done either. I have little reason to think he will be a top ten NBA player in a season more than once during his career when Giannis, Luka, Tatum, Booker, etc are contemporaries.


On the downside, KD will make approximately 20 million per season more than Ingram during that time. That limits who else you can sign to PG or C. If the Pels extend CJ, which it appears they will, have decided their big 3 are Zion, CJ and Ingram. If you don't see a championship window in there during the next 3 seasons with a supporting cast of Herb, JV, etc. you make the trade.

Clearly Ingram will be better for longer than KD but he's going to demand a contract like KD's current one in 2024/2025. Given what we know of Zion's injury issues and CJ's age, the window to win is smaller than we think.

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That seems too alarmist to me. The belief that Zion?s got a short shelf life so trade our other assets to get him a great player because Zion will be out of the league soon. If the Pels truly believe that, they shouldn?t have given him that contract in the first place.

I understand the fact that the KDs of the world only become available very rarely and then only to some select teams. Personally I?m skeptical that we have a realistic shot for him. But usually you make this move once you?ve determined the ceiling for your team, and you realize that the ceiling is short of a championship. We have no idea what the ceiling for our current team is. Part of the fun of becoming invested in a team is seeing just how far they can go. Once your fan base and the FO realizes what the ceiling is, then you start shopping trades to get you over the hump.

Another fun hypothetical would be in which universe is Zion most likely to stay through the entire contract and maybe even sign another

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Again, this is flipping it. And it presupposes that KD would happily come to the Pels (which would be necessary for Griff to pull the trigger)

So, in a "flip it" scenario, you do have a happy with the Pels scenario on this side. Its very hard to do. Peoples minds actively fight against it. But if you really, really flip it and try to imagine yourself, truly, in that flipped universe, it would require far more than BI and some picks for you to be willing to do it IMO.

Also, I keep seeing this -- you dont just have to beat the best offer of the other 28 teams. You have to meet the threshhold for the Nets. They dont have to do anything here. This isnt an item up for auction and you just have to beat the best competitor by 1 cent. You gonna meet or go above the seller's minimum sell price.

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Yep, the Nets best offer for KD may be their own. They have quietly put together a pretty nice supporting cast; and, as absurdly dumb as last season was, there's no reason for Kyrie to miss games this season.

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Originally Posted by pelafanatic

Yep, the Nets best offer for KD may be their own. They have quietly put together a pretty nice supporting cast; and, as absurdly dumb as last season was, there's no reason for Kyrie to miss games this season.

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yep....unless the owner is just done with KD and want to move on...the nets should just tell KD, we have you for 4 years so we're not in a rush to trade you..so you either play or sit and waste the rest of your career.....the nets should still be a favorite to come out the east come October...

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Be careful.... every account that is not overly optimistic has been labeled as a 'Mac burner' account. Your next post should be a picture of you writing your next post with a newspaper dated today

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Is it wrong I'm pro trade BI and keep alot of young assets (Dyson, Trey, Herb) vs trading the younger guys?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

And if KD was on our team you wouldn?t think Ingram and picks would be a fair price either. I can point to thousands of studies on bias of our own things, but people deny they suffer from it. Which is fine. But I would bet my life that if we had a happy KD on this team next to Zion and CJ and some blogger posted an idea of BI and picks for KD to line up with Zions timeline, we would be roasting that person. Just how humans are programmed

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Not meant to be ugly or all knowing but such studies do have their shortcomings. I have always appreciated a thorough analysis of my behavior.

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

yep....unless the owner is just done with KD and want to move on...the nets should just tell KD, we have you for 4 years so we're not in a rush to trade you..so you either play or sit and waste the rest of your career.....the nets should still be a favorite to come out the east come October...

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From a business perspective, there's no way the owner is done with KD. They're still spending money in order to try to convince him to stay. Unless KD sits out games, that team is far more profitable with KD on the team

I think Jose might have the best selling jersey in Brooklyn if he was traded to the Nets.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Just jumping in to mention how awful a nickname ''Easy Money Sniper'' is. The fact that Durant asked people specifically not to use ''Slim Reaper'' because he prefers easymoneysniper is insane. Awful stuff.

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Actually, he wanted "The Servant" which is somehow worse.

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Originally Posted by Lee2000

Not meant to be ugly or all knowing but such studies do have their shortcomings. I have always appreciated a thorough analysis of my behavior.

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For sure. I just think emotion becomes a part of the equation as a fan. Also bias from having watched X dude 77 out of 82 games and Y dude 8 out of 82 games.

It’s not just us, I see every single fan base saying no to Durant if it costs them a player they actually like. And I think we can all agree that is objectively insane. Now, there is a clear line of cost that is too much, but I just think that line is moved often because of emotion

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

I think Jose might have the best selling jersey in Brooklyn if he was traded to the Nets.

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I think my 12 year old nephew knows two Pelicans, Zion and Jose. As crazy as it sounds, Jose might currently be the second most popular Pel with the casual fans.

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Originally Posted by Silverfoxx

Is it wrong I'm pro trade BI and keep alot of young assets (Dyson, Trey, Herb) vs trading the younger guys?

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I think I would rather keep BI than any of them, just because of how much he bought in when he didn’t have to. But if they moved just BI and all of the young dudes stayed, I do think it would hurt less in a weird way than if say BI stayed and ALL the young dudes went out

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

That seems too alarmist to me. The belief that Zion?s got a short shelf life so trade our other assets to get him a great player because Zion will be out of the league soon. If the Pels truly believe that, they shouldn?t have given him that contract in the first place.

I understand the fact that the KDs of the world only become available very rarely and then only to some select teams. Personally I?m skeptical that we have a realistic shot for him. But usually you make this move once you?ve determined the ceiling for your team, and you realize that the ceiling is short of a championship. We have no idea what the ceiling for our current team is. Part of the fun of becoming invested in a team is seeing just how far they can go. Once your fan base and the FO realizes what the ceiling is, then you start shopping trades to get you over the hump.

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I agree. If I remember, there was a time when the Warriors were open to moving on from Curry in the early years. How would that have changed things?

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

I agree. If I remember, there was a time when the Warriors were open to moving on from Curry in the early years. How would that have changed things?

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You can always cherry pick to make the conclusion you want to be true appear true

For instance, what if I were to postulate how great things could have been for Dallas if they traded Roddy Beubois at peak value? Or hundreds of other young players who teams pearl clutched because of their enormous potential that ended up being nothing.

It goes all ways. It’s fine to be on one side over the other. To me, it’s intellectually dishonest to pretend one side is definitely the right side and the other is definitely wrong

My point was more about the making a move before determining what your ceiling was. If GSW had actually made that move, they may have 4 fewer rings. Not in a hundred universes did Dallas consider keeping Roddy Beubois as a necessary step to reaching their ceiling.

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

My point was more about the making a move before determining what your ceiling was. If GSW had actually made that move, they may have 4 fewer rings. Not in a hundred universes did Dallas consider keeping Roddy Beubois as a necessary step to reaching their ceiling.

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And I get that but the world doesnt work that way. You cant just wait to gather all information so that you KNOW now is the right time and then still be assured that the right guy will be there and you will have the best package and he wants to come, etc.

Its all a gamble, and you gotta take risks. You think Masai KNEW they would win a title that year? If you only do things when you 100% know its right, you wont do anything

Chemistry matters. It may be true that KD > BI right now, and also true that the Pelicans are better off keeping BI.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Chemistry matters. It may be true that KD > BI right now, and also true that the Pelicans are better off keeping BI.

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Were the Raptors better off keeping DeRozan?

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Originally Posted by Sovereign

Were the Raptors better off keeping DeRozan?

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Too many dissimilarities for this comparison to work. When the Raptors traded DeRozan for Kawhi they were a team that was stagnating and reached their ceiling after losing the conference semi finals in back to back seasons. They needed to make a move to shake things up, whereas the Pelicans are a team that is finally starting to form an identity, and clearly still in the ascending phase. Also Kawhi was younger than Derozen, whereas KD is almost 10 years older than BI.

Trades all follow the same pattern and this one is as well.

First, everyone acknowledges the player is available. Then, after some point when the possible trade partners become clear, the team with the asset always floats the idea that they could just keep the player. It's just another way of trying to drive the price up. That's where we are now.

Remember when Griff tried to make it seem like we'd keep Anthony Davis and try to sell him on playing with Zion?
Remember when Rockets were going to just keep James Hardin?
Remember when the Nets were going to just keep James Hardin?
There were reports that the Spurs actually weren't going to trade Murray.
There were reports, after it was well known that Gobert was available, that actually Ainge was going to keep the core together.

This is the playbook. And going back as far as the Chris Paul trade, the return for a star is always picks and young lottery ticket players that could take the next step and be stars, but haven't taken the next step yet. That's what AD, CP3, Hardin (from HOU to Nets), Paul George, and Gobert were all traded for. I can't think of a trade where an All Star, young player with potential, and multiple draft picks were all traded for a single player. Shaq to Miami didn't even fetch that kind of haul.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Here?s a fun hypothetical. Imagine you can look into the future with the ?no KD trade? universe. What is the WORST outcome that you would still say after peering into that future that you still would say ?I still don?t wanna trade for KD?

Like, let?s say you can peek into 2028 and the last 6 years have been like the Jazz last 6 years. A ton of wins. Even got a top seed. But only a few playoffs series wins, no WCF and now you are trading Zion and BI to reload

In this hypothetical you have no idea how the KD trade universe plays out. Only the no trade universe. What is the worst it could be where you still don?t want to trade for KD?

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We'd have to make the WCF. This is the most talented and asset rich we've ever been and we've never made the WCF. Establish a winning culture and grow the fanbase, more similar to the Grit and Grind Grizzlies.

I feel like people think more highly of the Grit and Grind Grizzlies because the organization relatively quickly transitioned into the Ja Morant Grizzlies.

I really wonder how we'd categorize the Grit and Grind era if it ended exactly the way it did, and instead of lucking into the number 2 pick the Grizzlies ended up with RJ Barrett and were treading water on their rebuild. I wonder why people don't point to the early 2000s Kings as the acceptable run. Is it just recency? Am I just old??

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Originally Posted by neitzelbaby12

We'd have to make the WCF. This is the most talented and asset rich we've ever been and we've never made the WCF. Establish a winning culture and grow the fanbase, more similar to the Grit and Grind Grizzlies.

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Is this the goal? To be as good as the Grizzlies have been the last 10 years? Do you see a title in their future?
This might be the post that convinces me to trade Ingram for Durant.
I really do not want Durant, but if the best the Pels can be without him is the Grizzlies I am trading for Durant.

FYI I do believe the Pels, as is, have a brighter future that the Grizz (everyone healthy). You ?

The 2000's Kings were awesome, but Shaq and Kobe, would love to reach that level!

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Originally Posted by redrum

Is this the goal? To be as good as the Grizzlies have been the last 10 years? Do you see a title in their future?
This might be the post that convinces me to trade Ingram for Durant.
I really do not want Durant, but if the best the Pels can be without him is the Grizzlies I am trading for Durant.

FYI I do believe the Pels, as is, have a brighter future that the Grizz (everyone healthy). You ?

The 2000's Kings were awesome, but Shaq and Kobe, would love to reach that level!

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With everything Ingram has done for the franchise, I think you'd get more joy out of seeing how far Ingram can take us rather than a fairly hollow title with Durant

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Originally Posted by AusPel

With everything Ingram has done for the franchise, I think you'd get more joy out of seeing how far Ingram can take us rather than a fairly hollow title with Durant

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Maybe, but a Pelicans title would be amazing!

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Originally Posted by AusPel

With everything Ingram has done for the franchise, I think you'd get more joy out of seeing how far Ingram can take us rather than a fairly hollow title with Durant

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100%. The chance of the pelicans winning the title is so insanely slim, and we finally have a cohesive, intelligent, and enthusiastic team and org. Throwing away all of this optimism, happiness, and loyalty would be heartbreaking

My question is where exactly do we draw the line of “our guys” vs “bought title”

Because Hart and NAW were loyal. Wanted to be here bad. One was even drafted by the team and the other, like Ingram, was traded here and signed a 2nd contract.

Yet, they were traded for CJ and he helped us win more and I don’t see anyone thinking we compromised any loyalty in that deal.

Is it the level of player we trade? The level of player we receive? Another factor? Because even if we do one day win a title, I guarantee it won’t be with these 8-10 core guys we have right now. Some of them will be gone, some other opportunities will be too good to pass up. If we trade Trey and Jonas for a big that puts us over the top, is that a hollow title or is that authentic? How about if it’s just Herb for an awesome guard, but everyone else stays the same?

What is the line? Because I don’t hear anybody saying that if CJ led us to a title this year, that it would be even remotely hollow

Note: Pels two draft picks have not signed they're contracts. Can't play in Summer league till they do. Thing to watch is, if they sign contract, they can't be included in a KD trade, can't be traded for 30 days. If they don't sign or play in summer league, a KD trade could be in the works.

Curious what would be the boards answer to this question:

Assuming health, and let’s just do it for this season. What would be your top 3 fits next to Zion? Any players in the league. Personally, I could debate the order but the top 3 would clearly be: Steph, Jokic, KD

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Originally Posted by sting

Note: Pels two draft picks have not signed they're contracts. Can't play in Summer league till they do. Thing to watch is, if they sign contract, they can't be included in a KD trade, can't be traded for 30 days. If they don't sign or play in summer league, a KD trade could be in the works.

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I would say it is more of a formality than a plan to sign KD.

Also, would you guys be willing to trade BI and Jonas for Jokic? Or would that be a hallow title?

Not being sarcastic or jerky here. Just really trying to find the line

Bi belong on this team more than Zion has improved every year and has been a leader loved n.o from the start I’ll trade him for luka only. I don’t think jokic will ever win a title nor will kd be the leader to a championship team . I believe only way we win a championship is with Zion or Brandon being assassins on the court ala Kobe /Jordan

The Spurs in their dynasty years had a good bit of cohesiveness .I can’t remember hearing about manu tony Bruce Bowen patty mills being traded heck they kept Bonner for awhile we shouldn’t trade guys who play for guys who don’t play and I like our teams to have dawg in their heart which our players do graham feels like the odd man out most of our guys haven’t hit 25 .so much room for improvement and we have depth

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Also, would you guys be willing to trade BI and Jonas for Jokic? Or would that be a hallow title?

Not being sarcastic or jerky here. Just really trying to find the line

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27 vs 34

There’s the line

(Jokic is a rough looking 27 btw)

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

27 vs 34

There’s the line

(Jokic is a rough looking 27 btw)

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Okay, so its age. We can trade guys we love for better players as long as the age is under a certain number? Also, was CJ younger or older than Hart and NAW? Fit the Zion timeline?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Okay, so its age. We can trade guys we love for better players as long as the age is under a certain number? Also, was CJ younger or older than Hart and NAW? Fit the Zion timeline?

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Huge difference trading a couple of young role players for an older quasi All Star than trading young All Stars for a dude who is 34.

It's ALL about age and injuries IMO. The odds of Durant being elite in 3 years are very low imo.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Also, would you guys be willing to trade BI and Jonas for Jokic? Or would that be a hallow title?

Not being sarcastic or jerky here. Just really trying to find the line

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Case-by-case basis, of course. I see BI as our guy as he's really blossomed and come into his own here. CJ immediately has become "our guy" based on his off the court impact. JV? I don't think trading him would hurt my heart.

Back to BI: I wouldn't trade BI because of all the talk about him wanting to be here and us wanting him and the 5 year, no player option, blah, blah, blah. You trade BI and all "love and family" stuff is all talk and then Andrew Lopez is vindicated.

Right. I am just seeing this loyalty and hollow titles talk but then all of a sudden that doesn’t exist when the guy is younger or the players we send out aren’t as good

So, let’s just drop those components and talk pure basketball reason. Because, as we see, those things aren’t real. You’d happily trade BI for Jokic. So let’s stop pretending it’s about loyalty or winning “the right way”

All I am saying

To be clear, I personally don't think it would be a "hollow title" if we traded BI + picks for KD. Titles are hard to come by. I just want to keep moving forward with these guys. They're fun guys and we're deep. Gone are the days of signing Andrew Harrison off the scrap heap and immediately putting him in as the starting point guard.

Are Josh Hart and Nickeil Alexander-Walker equal to Brandon Ingram or Zion?

Because if Brooklyn would trade KD for say Graham and Jax plus picks I would totally do that.

You’re also off on the “players we love” thing. There were people who didn’t like the CJ trade solely because they loved Hart. I wasn’t one of them. Doesn’t the whole CJ thing disprove your timeline thing from the start? Clearly there is more to it. I would trade anyone on this team if it makes sense. Milwaukee wants Zion for Giannis? Do it. Dallas wants BI for Luka? Do it. But I’m not mortgaging the future for Kevin Durant when I’m not confident he holds up for the next two years, much less the next four years, and because of that I’m not betting on him to truly drastically improving your title chances.

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Originally Posted by Upper Decker

To be clear, I personally don't think it would be a "hollow title" if we traded BI + picks for KD. Titles are hard to come by. I just want to keep moving forward with these guys. They're fun guys and we're deep. Gone are the days of signing Andrew Harrison off the scrap heap and immediately putting him in as the starting point guard.

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I agree with this. I wouldn't think of it as a hollow title. I just know that with the Warriors out there doing Warriors things, a title is not a certainty in this current window. If we are going to fall short, I'd prefer to fall short with our guys and keep the flexibility, rather than failing with KD who may not even want to be here and losing our future flexibility.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Curious what would be the boards answer to this question:

Assuming health, and let’s just do it for this season. What would be your top 3 fits next to Zion? Any players in the league. Personally, I could debate the order but the top 3 would clearly be: Steph, Jokic, KD

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For me, BI has embraced this team, the city, and his role as a leader. The fans really got to see that this year and love him for it. If KD came here, it would be less about winning a championship for New Orleans than adding to his own legacy. Maybe I'm wrong, but, for all his talent, KD seems overly sensitive, mercurial, and lacking in leadership. I don't see him galvanizing the team the way BI does...and, if things don't go well, how much do you trust him to stick it out?

Also, if BI entering his prime can be 70% of what KD will be this year, were all the draft picks and young players we also had to give away worth it? I don't think so. I'd rather see how good BI can be than how much KD has left.

There are no hollow titles, unless they were won in a bubble.

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Originally Posted by lawless522

For me, BI has embraced this team, the city, and his role as a leader. The fans really got to see that this year and love him for it. If KD came here, it would be less about winning a championship for New Orleans than adding to his own legacy. Maybe I'm wrong, but, for all his talent, KD seems overly sensitive, mercurial, and lacking in leadership. I don't see him galvanizing the team the way BI does...and, if things don't go well, how much do you trust him to stick it out?

Also, if BI entering his prime can be 70% of what KD will be this year, were all the draft picks and young players we also had to give away worth it? I don't think so. I'd rather see how good BI can be than how much KD has left.

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So, would you trade BI for Jokic?

Again, if you are gonna talk all this culture stuff, you gotta go all the way. Otherwise, it’s basketball reasons. Which is fine, and I agree by the way.

I just don’t like how some of my friends are being attacked on social media for being “disloyal “ or not true fans. That’s all hogwash. Those same people saying that to them would trade Herb for Mobley or Ingram for Jokic, etc. So that loyalty stuff is BA