What kind of players does this team need to take it to the next level next season?

I think CJ is perfect for this team.

He was never meant to play that much PG. The leading ball handlers on this team are Zion, BI, and Jose. Injuries to Zion and Jose plus teams doubling BI forced CJ into that role (while dealing with his own injury) but if we're going into the next postseason mission Zion and Jose, we're dead in the water, anyway. Only an all-star PG is saving that. So....trading Zion for an all-star level PG....sure. But CJ is perfect for us if we're healthy and he gets to play how he's meant to he played.

This off-season, I either look to move Zion for a more durable elite player or ride with this current lineup and really focus on staying healthy.

What Miami is doing in these playoffs is amazing.

With a best player (who's a wing) that doesn't take, nor make even medium volume 3s.

All while missing Tyler Herro.

I hope they win it all.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

I think CJ is perfect for this team.

He was never meant to play that much PG. The leading ball handlers on this team are Zion, BI, and Jose. Injuries to Zion and Jose plus teams doubling BI forced CJ into that role (while dealing with his own injury) but if we're going into the next postseason mission Zion and Jose, we're dead in the water, anyway. Only an all-star PG is saving that. So....trading Zion for an all-star level PG....sure. But CJ is perfect for us if we're healthy and he gets to play how he's meant to he played.

This off-season, I either look to move Zion for a more durable elite player or ride with this current lineup and really focus on staying healthy.

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Thank you! We don't need more young talent on the roster, we have plenty of that. What we need is the veteran leadership that CJ provides. He has become the scapegoat for the fans who are totally oblivious and ungrateful for the critical contributions he has provided. Not only was he forced into the a less than ideal role due to the injuries like you mention, he also played through injuries and set a standard for availability that other guys on the roster can aspire to follow.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Thank you! We don't need more young talent on the roster, we have plenty of that. What we need is the veteran leadership that CJ provides. He has become the scapegoat for the fans who are totally oblivious and ungrateful for the critical contributions he has provided. Not only was he forced into the a less than ideal role due to the injuries like you mention, he also played through injuries and set a standard for availability that other guys on the roster can aspire to follow.

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Yeah, his defense is stellar, huh? Shame on us for 'scapegoating' him; his decision-making is Springfield-worthy.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

What Miami is doing in these playoffs is amazing.

With a best player (who's a wing) that doesn't take, nor make even medium volume 3s.

All while missing Tyler Herro.

I hope they win it all.

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Not only that, they also have 7 undrafted players on that team with an old kevin love, a fat lowry and without herro and oladipo. That Heat culture and having a great coach has a big impact on them as well.

Them winning would be a nice story as well. Lost in the playins against atlanta dropping them to that do or die game against the bulls. Then beating the 1st seed in the east, the 5th seed and now the 2nd seed in the east. Then top it off by beating the 1st seed of the west to win it all.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

What Miami is doing in these playoffs is amazing.

With a best player (who's a wing) that doesn't take, nor make even medium volume 3s.

All while missing Tyler Herro.

I hope they win it all.

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Was listening to Isola and Scalbrine this morning on Sirius XM NBA radio. They were talking about the Heat and "Heat Culture". In their opinion, one of the biggest things about Heat Culture is Spolstra. Players either fit or they don't. There's not a situation where a player can go in and get them to get rid of a coach, like so many other places do. Any time something goes wrong, its the player, not the coach. And the players know that and play all out, because they can't get away with nonsense. The only other place they said is like that is San Antonio because of Pops.

Also mentioned that the Heat offense is actually more efficient and passes the ball around much more than if Herro were playing, which makes them harder to defend. Its easier to defend a guy that just comes up court, dribbles and shoots.

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

Was listening to Isola and Scalbrine this morning on Sirius XM NBA radio. They were talking about the Heat and "Heat Culture". In their opinion, one of the biggest things about Heat Culture is Spolstra. Players either fit or they don't. There's not a situation where a player can go in and get them to get rid of a coach, like so many other places do. Any time something goes wrong, its the player, not the coach. And the players know that and play all out, because they can't get away with nonsense. The only other place they said is like that is San Antonio because of Pops.

Also mentioned that the Heat offense is actually more efficient and passes the ball around much more than if Herro were playing, which makes them harder to defend. Its easier to defend a guy that just comes up court, dribbles and shoots.

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Yeah not sure I buy all of that. They were a play-in team this year afterall.

The main thing is the core of this year's team has played together for a while.

Butler, Adebayo, Herro, Duncan, and Gabe Vincent were all there for their bubble finals run in 2020. Max Strus has been there for 3 years.

It helps the coach not to have half the top 8 rotation be rookies, new players, or your best players missing 45+ games.

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Originally Posted by Samsonite...

Bored Question:

Thoughts on a trade centered around Brandon Ingram for Trae Young - something like Ingram and CJ or Jonas for Trae and Collins or Capela?

I am sure the Hawks would push for a pick or picks and/or a young asset (Dyson?) to move Young. But Ingram and CJ fit nicely with Murray, Hunter and Okongwu. This trade would keep them in playoff contention for foreseeable future.

Of course, all of this hinges on Zion being healthy, but I like a lineup of Young, Jones, Murphy, Zion, Jonas (or replacement for Jonas if moved); with Jose, Dyson, Collins, Nance, Naji, Kira off the bench.

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If the Pels trade for Trae and keep Zion, then they will have a problem on either end of the scale... one is too large (Zion) and one is too small (Trae)... they'd be like Yogi Bear and Boo Boo bear. Opposing teams and fans will have a merry ole time with that, so Pels fans really should not want that for themselves, lol.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Yeah not sure I buy all of that. They were a play-in team this year afterall.

The main thing is the core of this year's team has played together for a while.

Butler, Adebayo, Herro, Duncan, and Gabe Vincent were all there for their bubble finals run in 2020. Max Strus has been there for 3 years.

It helps the coach not to have half the top 8 rotation be rookies, new players, or your best players missing 45+ games.

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They were a play-in team but were the 1 seed last year with, as you note, largely the same players. They weren't your "traditional" play-in team.

One thing I hope the Heat’s success accomplishes is to at least call into question the reigning orthodoxy in the NBA that the only path to contention is thru megastars. This seems particularly relevant for small market teams like the Pels. Miami is proof of concept that the team and its culture can be the star, even in the postseason. Put together the right roster with the right ethic and you can take on and defeat teams with more “star” power…

Problem is it's probably harder to build that type of organizational culture than it is to get megastars.

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Originally Posted by new city champ

One thing I hope the Heat’s success accomplishes is to at least call into question the reigning orthodoxy in the NBA that the only path to contention is thru megastars. This seems particularly relevant for small market teams like the Pels. Miami is proof of concept that the team and its culture can be the star, even in the postseason. Put together the right roster with the right ethic and you can take on and defeat teams with more “star” power…

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I like this take because it imagines that the reason for the Heat's success is the culture rather than the fact that Jimmy Butler has been one of the best post-season players in the NBA for the last decade.

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Originally Posted by new city champ

One thing I hope the Heat’s success accomplishes is to at least call into question the reigning orthodoxy in the NBA that the only path to contention is thru megastars. This seems particularly relevant for small market teams like the Pels. Miami is proof of concept that the team and its culture can be the star, even in the postseason. Put together the right roster with the right ethic and you can take on and defeat teams with more “star” power…

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You forgot and have Erik Spoelstra

Improvement from Dyson will be a big help. Might try to make it to vegas to see he and EJ.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/...e-hard-lessons

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"As a rookie, people are going to attack you. LeBron looks at me as a target. A lot of people do that, they think they can outsmart you but it's about being disciplined and knowing what people like to do."

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"There was a game against Phoenix. Devin Booker torched me," he said.

"We played them the week before and I did a good job, a week later he drops 58. I played good defence, he was shooting over me and when people are hot, they're hot. That was a welcome to the NBA moment for me. No matter how good the defence is, sometimes you can't stop people."

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"Having a big Summer League is definitely my goal, going out there and running that team and showing that I've made improvements in my game."

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I like this take because it imagines that the reason for the Heat's success is the culture rather than the fact that Jimmy Butler has been one of the best post-season players in the NBA for the last decade.

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Fair, but Butler is just one guy and was not a coveted superstar when acquired by the Heat. He was a 30-year-old who had been essentially run off by the Bulls, Wolves and Sixers. Gettable. Not someone you have to mortgage the team for and put all your eggs in one basket. I'm objecting to the orthodoxy that building a contending team is all about the "get," about landing superstars and everything has to be sacrificed to get them. There is another route to go, one much more accessible for small-market teams. Sure you need players. But idea you have to have a LeBron, or a Durant or a Giannis or your just treading water dominates conventional thinking about NBA roster building...

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Originally Posted by djrnno

You forgot and have Erik Spoelstra

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And LeBron wanted Spoelstra fired! Again, he was not some superstar "get" as a coach. Neither was Malone for the Nuggets. He was fired by the Kings. Build your organization.

Same philosophy can be applied to draft. Sure, you can keep swinging for "upside" with undeveloped adolescents you can dream on. But a lot of those guys are always a year away from being a year away. Nothing wrong with picking a guy who you have a clear vision for as part of your overall organization. Oh no! He'll never be All-NBA! Well, neither will most of the upside guys.

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Originally Posted by new city champ

Fair, but Butler is just one guy and was not a coveted superstar when acquired by the Heat. He was a 30-year-old who had been essentially run off by the Bulls, Wolves and Sixers. Gettable. Not someone you have to mortgage the team for and put all your eggs in one basket. I'm objecting to the orthodoxy that building a contending team is all about the "get," about landing superstars and everything has to be sacrificed to get them. There is another route to go, one much more accessible for small-market teams. Sure you need players. But idea you have to have a LeBron, or a Durant or a Giannis or your just treading water dominates conventional thinking about NBA roster building...

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Sure but at the same time, why was he ''run off'' by those teams?

Bulls let him go because he wasn't a mega-star yet and they're a famously horrible franchise run by morons.

Wolves moved on from him because he was too much of an overbearing personality and was making KAT feel bad - nothing to do with his play, as he had been excellent during his time there and was part of leading them to their first playoff berth in over a decade.

Then he left the Sixers because they chose Tobias Harris over him, again in part because there was tension between him and Embiid because Embiid is a big baby and Butler is notoriously abrasive as a figure. Nothing to do with his play, as he had again been an all-star level player and provided them with several key playoff moments.

Saying he was ''run off'' makes it sound like he was some mediocre player that we could've never predicted this Miami level of play from - that's simply not true, at least not for MIN and PHI. Maybe that's the case for Chicago, though I think that's more down to them than him. The issue is, and always has been, that he's kind of a jerk, a little too intense for most people, and abrasive.

That works in Miami, a franchise that has spent the last 15 years crowing about its gruelling workouts, intense practices, physical play style, win-at-all-costs mentality, etc, but would it have worked in New Orleans? Remember, when the Heat acquired him it was 2019-20, we still had Alvin Gentry as a head coach at the time.

I don't even think that I disagree with your overall point, which is that you can make big waves with an 04-Pistons style of team where everyone is good and versatile more-so than a league defining star. There's some truth in that. I just think you're vastly underrating the impact that Butler has on Miami, and therefore using them as an example when they don't fit that category.

That said, I do think that introduces a problem: the 04 Pistons were the last time a team won a chip that way. It's been nearly 20 years. Every single championship team since has had a HoF talent leading the pack: Timmy, Lebron, Kawhi, Curry, Kd, Nowitzki, and this year it may well be Jokic. It's pretty hard to buy ''we don't need a star, we just need high quality versatile depth'' when the last team to win that way did it when Blockbuster was still a routine destination.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Sure but at the same time, why was he ''run off'' by those teams?

Bulls let him go because he wasn't a mega-star yet and they're a famously horrible franchise run by morons.

Wolves moved on from him because he was too much of an overbearing personality and was making KAT feel bad - nothing to do with his play, as he had been excellent during his time there and was part of leading them to their first playoff berth in over a decade.

Then he left the Sixers because they chose Tobias Harris over him, again in part because there was tension between him and Embiid because Embiid is a big baby and Butler is notoriously abrasive as a figure. Nothing to do with his play, as he had again been an all-star level player and provided them with several key playoff moments.

Saying he was ''run off'' makes it sound like he was some mediocre player that we could've never predicted this Miami level of play from - that's simply not true, at least not for MIN and PHI. Maybe that's the case for Chicago, though I think that's more down to them than him. The issue is, and always has been, that he's kind of a jerk, a little too intense for most people, and abrasive.

That works in Miami, a franchise that has spent the last 15 years crowing about its gruelling workouts, intense practices, physical play style, win-at-all-costs mentality, etc, but would it have worked in New Orleans? Remember, when the Heat acquired him it was 2019-20, we still had Alvin Gentry as a head coach at the time.

I don't even think that I disagree with your overall point, which is that you can make big waves with an 04-Pistons style of team where everyone is good and versatile more-so than a league defining star. There's some truth in that. I just think you're vastly underrating the impact that Butler has on Miami, and therefore using them as an example when they don't fit that category.

That said, I do think that introduces a problem: the 04 Pistons were the last time a team won a chip that way. It's been nearly 20 years. Every single championship team since has had a HoF talent leading the pack: Timmy, Lebron, Kawhi, Curry, Kd, Nowitzki, and this year it may well be Jokic. It's pretty hard to buy ''we don't need a star, we just need high quality versatile depth'' when the last team to win that way did it when Blockbuster was still a routine destination.

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I think we may agree on the basic point I was making, but to close it out on Butler, I was more using him as an example not because he isn't a really, really good player (though the HOF may be a stretch), but because Miami did not have to mortgage their team to get him, a la KD in Phoenix. He was gettable at a reasonable price (Whiteside/Richardson/1st rounder). And he was gettable because the league did not value him properly so the Heat found an anomaly in the market.

Maybe it was because he was a jerk--though no teams ran off Jordan or Kobe despite their being royal jerks. Or maybe it was because he was a 30-year-old perimeter player who averaged about 18 points a game and shot 33% from the arc. But I agree he fit with the Heat and their culture and that's my point. The culture is the starting point more so than any one player. I'm not saying they could do this without Butler. I'm saying that they built a culture and found players to match who were not valued as "superstars" in the league. It's an alternative model that is especially relevant for small-market teams and a needed counter balance to conventional wisdom about roster building. I think even looking at Giannis, Steph, Jokic, or LeBron in Cleveland shows one home-grown star with the right supporting pieces around him can be a champion, if you get the culture right...

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Originally Posted by new city champ

I think we may agree on the basic point I was making, but to close it out on Butler, I was more using him as an example not because he isn't a really, really good player (though the HOF may be a stretch), but because Miami did not have to mortgage their team to get him, a la KD in Phoenix. He was gettable at a reasonable price (Whiteside/Richardson/1st rounder). And he was gettable because the league did not value him properly so the Heat found an anomaly in the market.

Maybe it was because he was a jerk--though no teams ran off Jordan or Kobe despite their being royal jerks. Or maybe it was because he was a 30-year-old perimeter player who averaged about 18 points a game and shot 33% from the arc. But I agree he fit with the Heat and their culture and that's my point. The culture is the starting point more so than any one player. I'm not saying they could do this without Butler. I'm saying that they built a culture and found players to match who were not valued as "superstars" in the league. It's an alternative model that is especially relevant for small-market teams and a needed counter balance to conventional wisdom about roster building. I think even looking at Giannis, Steph, Jokic, or LeBron in Cleveland shows one home-grown star with the right supporting pieces around him can be a champion, if you get the culture right...

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Butler is a 6x All Star, 5x All NBA, 5x All defense, Olympic gold medallist. I think that's a probably HoF player - there are far worse in the hall. If they win a chip this year, I'd consider it a 100% lock.

The problem is that you're describing situations as if it's culture + superstar, when in reality for the most part the superstar IS the culture.

You say, for example, that Steph proves that ''one home-grown star with the right supporting pieces'' can be a champion. Those ''supporting pieces'' being a top 5 shooter of all time, a 2x dpoy, and Kevin durant.

Or Lebron in Cleveland, whose ''supporting pieces'' were prime Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love, each all-star level players, and whose culture was so entirely dependent on Lebron that when he didn't play they were a sub .500 team his entire second tenure in Cleveland.

In these aspects, the teams were both defined more by the champ than the culture and the supporting casts featured multiple other stars. It's not just one guy glued to a culture, it's one guy creating a culture that allows them to foster other stars.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Butler is a 6x All Star, 5x All NBA, 5x All defense, Olympic gold medallist. I think that's a probably HoF player - there are far worse in the hall. If they win a chip this year, I'd consider it a 100% lock.

The problem is that you're describing situations as if it's culture + superstar, when in reality for the most part the superstar IS the culture.

You say, for example, that Steph proves that ''one home-grown star with the right supporting pieces'' can be a champion. Those ''supporting pieces'' being a top 5 shooter of all time, a 2x dpoy, and Kevin durant.

Or Lebron in Cleveland, whose ''supporting pieces'' were prime Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love, each all-star level players, and whose culture was so entirely dependent on Lebron that when he didn't play they were a sub .500 team his entire second tenure in Cleveland.

In these aspects, the teams were both defined more by the champ than the culture and the supporting casts featured multiple other stars. It's not just one guy glued to a culture, it's one guy creating a culture that allows them to foster other stars.

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I really like Butler as a player, but has he ever been a starter in an All Star game or made First Team NBA or even First Team All Defense? I'm not sure he has. Again, not a knock on Jimmy, just saying he was not seen around the league as a franchise player, which is why Miami picked him up on the cheap. Don't think even his fans would have called him an NBA superstar before now.

I think culture can come first, set by organization, but you need players who buy in, especially your stars. I'm just arguing against gutting your team to reach for a star player without regard with how he fits your team. I'd rather a Jimmy Butler at reasonable cost than trading the farm for Kevin Durant. I'd trust fit and my team culture and supporting guys to put me in contention.

Golden State, in its original championship run, was all home grown. None of those guys were top 5 picks in their drafts, and Dray was a second rounder. Can be done.

the more I think about it the more I am convinced we need to keep the current core in tact. Even though we didnt make the playoffs I still think it was the the closest a Pelicans team has been to contending for a championship. Our most likely path to a title is to put all our eggs in the basket of player health.

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Originally Posted by new city champ

I really like Butler as a player, but has he ever been a starter in an All Star game or made First Team NBA or even First Team All Defense? I'm not sure he has. Again, not a knock on Jimmy, just saying he was not seen around the league as a franchise player, which is why Miami picked him up on the cheap. Don't think even his fans would have called him an NBA superstar before now.

I think culture can come first, set by organization, but you need players who buy in, especially your stars. I'm just arguing against gutting your team to reach for a star player without regard with how he fits your team. I'd rather a Jimmy Butler at reasonable cost than trading the farm for Kevin Durant. I'd trust fit and my team culture and supporting guys to put me in contention.

Golden State, in its original championship run, was all home grown. None of those guys were top 5 picks in their drafts, and Dray was a second rounder. Can be done.

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Tell me what culture Cleveland had before Lebron came back.

Tell me what culture Milwaukee had before Giannis became an all-timer.

The culture happened because of the star, not the other way around.

As for the idea that you can build through the draft, of course you can. I'm the one who regularly wants to keep the draft picks and pick up desmond Bane or Xavier Tillman :hihi: but you can't make the culture idea there either. Sure, if you draft 3 HoF talents, you can win on 'culture', but when your team is that loaded, how much can we trust that it's the 'culture' doing it?

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

the more I think about it the more I am convinced we need to keep the current core in tact. Even though we didnt make the playoffs I still think it was the the closest a Pelicans team has been to contending for a championship. Our most likely path to a title is to put all our eggs in the basket of player health.

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If both Zion and BI can play 55 games a year and be okay for the playoffs, we win a ring in the next 5 years with this core.

If they can't, we crumble completely.

It's oversimplifying a little bit but I honestly don't think by much.

I genuinely believe that if Zion and Ingram were both healthy from March onwards, we're still playing games right now.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Even though we didnt make the playoffs I still think it was the the closest a Pelicans team has been to contending for a championship.

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This is funny... :hihi:

injury is our culture lol...

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

If both Zion and BI can play 55 games a year and be okay for the playoffs, we win a ring in the next 5 years with this core.

If they can't, we crumble completely.

It's oversimplifying a little bit but I honestly don't think by much.

I genuinely believe that if Zion and Ingram were both healthy from March onwards, we're still playing games right now.

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I agree. Even in the best of the CP3 and AD years it never felt like we had a chance to win it all. Putting together a New Orleans team to contend seemed like an unattainable goal. If this team could stay healthy it is the most legit shot we have ever had. Every decision is a decision risk. I dont see us improving by trading away what we have. Doubling down on conditioning and best practices for health and hoping we get lucky with injuries is the most probable path to a title imo.