Pelicans want Steven Adams

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Sure but at the same time you can't hold them as sacred. The vast vast vast majority of 2nd round picks result in literally nothing for the team that uses them. There are exceptions but they're rare. And while they're often available, teams very rarely successfully pick up guys who are strong starter calibre players in the late first round.

I get wanting to be sensible, and I agree that picks have value and you shouldn't be silly about them, but if you get yourself to the point where you're refusing to trade a 2024 second rounder in a deal for a starter calibre player then you're being sillier than Danny Ainge has ever been about assets, and we all know how much he gets clowned.

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As long as Beal doesn't come onto the market half way through the season and Presti doesn't pounce with our assets as his competitive advantage I should be good :hihi:

I absolutely love Steven Adams and I think he is miles better than Asik, but I agree that we overpayed- possibly by a lot. If we had rid ourselves of Bledsoe?s deal, you can make the argument that we shed salary and the deal is at least a bit more neutral.

I can at least get behind this deal because I love the guy. This will however be one of those moments where I judge Griffin harshly if it backfires. I am assuming we have a plan of some sort in place that hasn?t come together yet. A year rental for Adams considering our standing in the league atm is just stupidity. There has to be more to it.

People panicking about us giving up a 2023 late first and some seconds, it's wild

Zion and Steven Adams is literally the handshake meme lmao https://t.co/4rAGEtPiGf pic.twitter.com/5LbOSVlL76

— Trenton Jocz (@TrentonJocz) November 21, 2020

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

People panicking about us giving up a 2023 late first and some seconds, it's wild

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People are skeptical. Big difference. At least be fair here

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

I absolutely love Steven Adams and I think he is miles better than Asik, but I agree that we overpayed- possibly by a lot. If we had rid ourselves of Bledsoe’s deal, you can make the argument that we shed salary and the deal is at least a bit more neutral.

I can at least get behind this deal because I love the guy. This will however be one of those moments where I judge Griffin harshly if it backfires. I am assuming we have a plan of some sort in place that hasn’t come together yet. A year rental for Adams Considering our standing in the league atm is just stupidity. There has to be more to it.

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Okay, I been pretty clear on this... Nobody wants Bledsoe unless it's a last resort option..

I'm not saying we will be stuck with him, but he isn't leaving till when free agency starts to get really tight with teams that are feeling the pressure.

We do need to extend Adams, but his paycut will force him to test the free agent waters. Even then... He's probably gone unless we overpay for him.

Maybe he'll take a GTD deal extension of maybe 17 million a year, but that's 8 million drop off from 25 million per year that he gad in his last deal.

If Horford is getting paid. Adams agent isn't going to take a paycut till he sees the market himself. Which can really burn him. 3+1 68 million may be looked as a safer deal in the midst of all this uncertainty with Covid, but you can't predict what an agent may feel.

Especially, when a bunch of role players get 20 million deals.

You can argue that the cap space will tighten up next year, tho.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

People panicking about us giving up a 2023 late first and some seconds, it's wild

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Wild!

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

People panicking about us giving up a 2023 late first and some seconds, it's wild

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Lol that's why I gave up on the argument. If it works? Cool. If it doesn't? Gone next year.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Okay, I been pretty clear on this... Nobody wants Bledsoe unless it's a last resort option..

I'm not saying we will be stuck with him, but he isn't leaving till when free agency starts to get really tight with teams that are feeling the pressure.

We do need to extend Adams, but his paycut will force him to test the free agent waters. Even then... He's probably gone unless we overpay for him.

Maybe he'll take a GTD deal extension of maybe 17 million a year, but that's 8 million drop off from 25 million per year that he gad in his last deal.

If Horford is getting paid. Adams agent isn't going to take a paycut till he sees the market himself. Which can really burn him. 3+1 68 million may be looked as a safer deal in the midst of all this uncertainty with Covid, but you can't predict what an agent may feel.

Especially, when a bunch of role players get 20 million deals.

You can argue that the cap space will tighten up next year, tho.

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Nobody wants him which is why we would send OKC picks as compensation. Instead, we just made a straight swap with expirings. Everyone and their mother thought Bledsoe was going in this deal before the details were released because it made more sense. Expirings for an expiring that will be difficult to extend is not worth parting with picks for. Maybe if we were a perennial playoff team.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Okay, I been pretty clear on this... Nobody wants Bledsoe unless it's a last resort option..

I'm not saying we will be stuck with him, but he isn't leaving till when free agency starts to get really tight with teams that are feeling the pressure.

We do need to extend Adams, but his paycut will force him to test the free agent waters. Even then... He's probably gone unless we overpay for him.

Maybe he'll take a GTD deal extension of maybe 17 million a year, but that's 8 million drop off from 25 million per year that he gad in his last deal.

If Horford is getting paid. Adams agent isn't going to take a paycut till he sees the market himself. Which can really burn him. 3+1 68 million may be looked as a safer deal in the midst of all this uncertainty with Covid, but you can't predict what an agent may feel.

Especially, when a bunch of role players get 20 million deals.

You can argue that the cap space will tighten up next year, tho.

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Adams last contract is fairly irrelevant, it's definitely not acting as a baseline he should negotiate off this time

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

Lol that's why I gave up on the argument. If it works? Cool. If it doesn't? Gone next year.

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And 3 less picks for nothing. Awesome. And yes I hope this deal pans out. Skepticism here is very fair though

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

And 3 less picks for nothing. Awesome. And yes I hope this deal pans out. Skepticism here is very fair though

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Ooooooook brother.

Another reason not to poo poo this years seconds. Could trade them back like did this year

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

Ooooooook brother.

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It?s as if you can?t handle a differing opinion or something.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

It?s as if you can?t handle a differing opinion or something.

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I've made my points. You've made your points. We agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

I've made my points. You've made your points. We agree to disagree.

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That is more like it.

Anyways, a lot will depend on what other moves we make this season and next. I?m glad we brought this guy in personally. However, I hope there is a better plan in place than “he is a mentor for Hayes and he brings a winning culture.” There very likely is.

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

I've made my points. You've made your points. We agree to disagree.

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Yeah, if you say ''it's three picks for nothing!'' and I say ''it's three picks that are highly likely to result in nothing anyway based on the historical data for at least one year of a very very good player with the potential to extend later if circumstances are right, and even if we don't extend him we end up with $30m of cap space'' and you respond ''but it's three picks!'' then what else am I supposed to say?

Conversation's over.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, if you say ''it's three picks for nothing!'' and I say ''it's three picks that are highly likely to result in nothing anyway based on the historical data for at least one year of a very very good player with the potential to extend later if circumstances are right, and even if we don't extend him we end up with $30m of cap space'' and you respond ''but it's three picks!'' then what else am I supposed to say?

Conversation's over.

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Lol pretty much.

I think this is what big trade MM was talking about. He was right. I like the move.

What's the bet OKC aggregates the Cleveland and Washington picks to move into the 1st round

Could probably get up to 3rd overall

https://www.pelicansreport.com/image...ine=1509393320

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

I think this is what big trade MM was talking about. He was right. I like the move.

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lol no

Adams gives this team some toughness. We have no real alpha males on this team. Jrue was a super nice guy, almost to a fault. We got a good veteran player at a position of Absolute need that will put you on your ****** if you mess with him or his teammates. I love this move.

Plus he looks like Aquaman.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, if you say ''it's three picks for nothing!'' and I say ''it's three picks that are highly likely to result in nothing anyway based on the historical data for at least one year of a very very good player with the potential to extend later if circumstances are right, and even if we don't extend him we end up with $30m of cap space'' and you respond ''but it's three picks!'' then what else am I supposed to say?

Conversation's over.

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I mentioned the 3 picks for nothing because he acted dismissively towards the move as if we didn?t lose any assets. Those picks can be used to facilitate another deal. We would have shed that salary space regardless of acquiring Adams or not so that point is null and void. All we gain is a good player on an expiring. That is fine. If you believe the value is there, so be it. I don?t think we should be throwing picks around willy nilly. We?ll see how it pans out.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

I mentioned the 3 picks for nothing because he acted dismissively towards the move as if we didn?t lose any assets. Those picks can be used to facilitate another deal. We would have shed that salary space regardless of acquiring Adams or not so that point is null and void. All we gain is a good player on an expiring. That is fine. If you believe the value is there, so be it. I don?t think we should be throwing picks around willy nilly. We?ll see how it pans out.

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Agreed. You don't see Sam Presti chucking picks around willy nilly. He respects them too much

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Agreed. You don't see Sam Presti chucking picks around willy nilly. He respects them too much

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All I can say is this can’t be it. I expect another move in the works. My initial reaction- I’m hesitant specifically because we didn’t move Bledsoe. We very easily could be preparing something big and then this deal makes more sense.

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Agreed. You don't see Sam Presti chucking picks around willy nilly. He respects them too much

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A pick 8-30 and denver will still be good in 2023 so it'll be in the 20's and 2nd rounders "usually" don't have much value. So us "chucking" them around will nilly is an overstatement. Now if we given away 2 1st rounders for Adams, then it would be a completely different conversation. We still have ALL the assets from our 2 biggest trades from AD and Jrue. So as long as we aren't careless with those, I'm cool.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

All I can say is this can’t be it. I expect another move in the works. My initial reaction- I’m hesitant specifically because we didn’t move Bledsoe. We very easily could be preparing something big and then this deal makes more sense.

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I'm almost certain there will be at least 1 more move to be done.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

All I can say is this can?t be it. I expect another move in the works. My initial reaction- I?m hesitant specifically because we didn?t move Bledsoe. We very easily could be preparing something big and then this deal makes more sense.

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Nah it's pretty much it apart from one more guy who might make you sit up and take notice. Then the rest minimums basically

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Originally Posted by hornetzplaya

I'm almost certain there will be at least 1 more move to be done.

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There has to be at least something more: our deal for Adams doesn't actually quite work under the cap yet, we have to move someone else. Doesn't really matter who because it's only like $2m that has to be made up I think, but someone's gotta go.

Then you have to imagine we're gonna use the MLE to sign someone on the wing.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

There has to be at least something more: our deal for Adams doesn't actually quite work under the cap yet, we have to move someone else. Doesn't really matter who because it's only like $2m that has to be made up I think, but someone's gotta go.

Then you have to imagine we're gonna use the MLE to sign someone on the wing.

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My guess is a S&T with one of our UFA to make up the shortfall

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Originally Posted by AusPel

My guess is a S&T with one of our UFA to make up the shortfall

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Take one for the team Frank!

I'm admittedly a bit slow when it comes to NBA cap stuff and it usually takes people making posts explaining what's up for me to wrap my brain around it but I don't get the Asik deal comparisons. The Omer deal panned out to be bad because of how long term it was. Adams is on an expiring. Can't get any more opposite than that. And one thing I do know from observing cap guys is that expiring contracts make them super moist.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Take one for the team Frank!

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Or Kenny. Prefer Frank though

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

I'm admittedly a bit slow when it comes to NBA cap stuff and it usually takes people making posts explaining what's up for me to wrap my brain around it but I don't get the Asik deal comparisons. The Omer deal panned out to be bad because of how long term it was. Adams is on an expiring. Can't get any more opposite than that. And one thing I do know from observing cap guys is that expiring contracts make them super moist.

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Similarities:

- Both centres we traded for on expiring contracts
- Neither stretched the floor
- Both good rebounders
- Both filled a need

That's about where the similarities end really. Adams is a vastly more talented, assertive and co-ordinated player.

Some people are worried about us overpaying again (and over-committing with the length like you said, which is arguably more damaging), if we re-sign Adams. Not just over-committing in terms of short and long term output, but whether you want to tie up 15-20 mil in the centre position, probably the last place you want direct a large chunk of capital (unless your name is Nikola Jokic)

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

I'm admittedly a bit slow when it comes to NBA cap stuff and it usually takes people making posts explaining what's up for me to wrap my brain around it but I don't get the Asik deal comparisons. The Omer deal panned out to be bad because of how long term it was. Adams is on an expiring. Can't get any more opposite than that. And one thing I do know from observing cap guys is that expiring contracts make them super moist.

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It?s definitely better than the Asik deal. We have so many assets to sit on and Adams is expiring (and a much better player). We can technically afford to take a gamble here.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

I absolutely love Steven Adams and I think he is miles better than Asik, but I agree that we overpayed- possibly by a lot. If we had rid ourselves of Bledsoe?s deal, you can make the argument that we shed salary and the deal is at least a bit more neutral.

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I don't think it's really an overpay at all unless you think it's guaranteed that Hill will get back another 1st round pick and that Adams is a horrible fit even as a 1 year rental. At some point, it's actually not good to have too many first round picks. People overvalue them probably in part due to their value in other sports... but not so much in the NBA outside of the top few picks, and you need veterans on the team to help the current young players grow.

Also, Eric Bledsoe's deal isn't that bad. It's 3/54.4, but the final year only 3.9m of 19.4m is guaranteed. So it's really 2/35 with 3.9m in the third year. Could be good value for a trade at that point for a team looking to shed contracts.

Also doesn't seem that bad at all when compared to what current free agents are getting... Jordan Clarkson 4/52, Marcus Morris 4/64, Jerami Grant 3/60, Gordan Hayward 4/120, Fred VanVleet 4/84.

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Originally Posted by bradael

it's actually not good to have too many first round picks.

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I can see you're not someone who's firmly bought into the Sam Presti Philosophy of Draft Capital Accumulation :hihi:

Would you also mind elaborating on your unconventional 'more is less' approach to draft pick valuation and management? Cheers!

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Originally Posted by bradael

I don't think it's really an overpay at all unless you think it's guaranteed that Hill will get back another 1st round pick and that Adams is a horrible fit even as a 1 year rental. At some point, it's actually not good to have too many first round picks. People overvalue them probably in part due to their value in other sports... but not so much in the NBA outside of the top few picks, and you need veterans on the team to help the current young players grow.

Also, Eric Bledsoe's deal isn't that bad. It's 3/54.4, but the final year only 3.9m of 19.4m is guaranteed. So it's really 2/35 with 3.9m in the final year. Could be good value for a trade at that point for a team looking to shed contracts.

Also doesn't seem that bad at all when compared to what current free agents are getting... Jordan Clarkson 4/52, Marcus Morris 4/64, Jerami Grant 3/60, Gordan Hayward 4/120, Fred VanVleet 4/84.

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I don’t think Bledsoe’s contract is so bad in the sense that he is a poor player. I question his fit, his attitude and the circumstance he comes into. We drafted a very promising Kira Lewis jr. Rather than bury him in the rotation, we should put him in situation where he can learn on the go. Bledsoe is not a long term piece. I don’t think we are quite ready to compete either. We trade Bledsoe for Adams and we get that added veteran presence while shedding his salary. I don’t think we should have both.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

I don?t think Bledsoe?s contract is so bad in the sense that he is a poor player. I question his fit, his attitude and the circumstance he comes into. We drafted a very promising Kira Lewis jr. Rather than bury him in the rotation, we should put him in situation where he can learn on the go. Bledsoe is not a long term piece. I don?t think we are quite ready to compete either. We trade Bledsoe for Adams and we get that added veteran presence while shedding his salary. I don?t think we should have both.

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If we could of traded Bledsoe for Adam we would. They didn't want Bledsoe without more compensation.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

If we could of traded Bledsoe for Adam we would. They didn't want Bledsoe without more compensation.

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Then we shouldn’t have made the deal. If our goal was to shed salary, all we’d need to do is find an expiring for Hill. We chose Adams. It is what it is.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Then we shouldn’t have made the deal. If our goal was to shed salary, all we’d need to do is find an expiring for Hill. We chose Adams. It is what it is.

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The goals may have shifted along the way, you never know

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Originally Posted by AusPel

The goals may have shifted along the way, you never know

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Who knows. At least the team will be enjoyable this year. And I don?t think the FO is so shortsighted that they?d trade picks for a rental. I suspect we aren?t done yet.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

Who knows. At least the team will be enjoyable this year. And I don?t think the FO is so shortsighted that they?d trade picks for a rental. I suspect we aren?t done yet.

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I don't know if you haven't watched last year, but we was one of the worst defense at protecting the paint. Adams helps a lot with that and it's a cultural move too.

I don't think it's all or nothing: either you try to make a team that will win now or send all talent away to tank for picks. There is room for the Pelicans in the middle of those extremes.

A team with Ingram and healthy Zion is never going to be a bottom 3-5 team. And with the trades of Holiday and Davis, the team has future assets already. So I see no problem in acquiring veterans, seeing if you can get to the 7th seed, and not sacrificing that much future flexibility. Then you see what players fit and don't fit and make decisions after.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

I don't know if you haven't watched last year, but we was one of the worst defense at protecting the paint. Adams helps a lot with that and it's a cultural move too.

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I love Adams, but we said the same thing about Favors and Jrue bringing “defense and veteran presence.” Lot of good that did us. If we are better defensively, yes Adams will be a big factor in the paint. But a head coaching change should be massive too.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

I love Adams, but we said the same thing about Favors and Jrue bringing “defense and veteran presence.” Lot of good that did us. If we are better defensively, yes Adams will be a big factor in the paint. But a head coaching change should be massive too.

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The problem is that defense is a team thing. You can't one-man a defense.

Jrue was a really good 1-v-1 defender last year. So was Favors. But Favors spent huge chunks of the year out, and the defense as a team never really came together for a variety of reasons, so you were left with Jrue leading the league in deflections and being one of the highest in guard contests and being top 10 in loose balls collected, and Favors holding people well under their averages and boxing out like a madman, and it meant nothing because the team defense just didn't exist.


That's something that needs to change, and it's a culture thing as much as anything else. SVG should help there, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The problem is that defense is a team thing. You can't one-man a defense.

Jrue was a really good 1-v-1 defender last year. So was Favors. But Favors spent huge chunks of the year out, and the defense as a team never really came together for a variety of reasons, so you were left with Jrue leading the league in deflections and being one of the highest in guard contests and being top 10 in loose balls collected, and Favors holding people well under their averages and boxing out like a madman, and it meant nothing because the team defense just didn't exist.


That's something that needs to change, and it's a culture thing as much as anything else. SVG should help there, for sure.

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I don’t blame Jrue one bit. Gentry and his staff were godawful on that side of the ball. We somehow managed to be one of the best rebounding teams in the league (I think) while looking like one of the worst rebounding teams in the league. We’d give up open cuts, looks, rebounds and everything on the spectrum. We’d mark invisible space constantly. Jrue wasn’t even a factor because we were sliced through like Swiss.

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Originally Posted by JJackisangry

I don’t blame Jrue one bit. Gentry and his staff were godawful on that side of the ball. We somehow managed to be one of the best rebounding teams in the league (I think) while looking like one of the worst rebounding teams in the league. We’d give up open cuts, looks, rebounds and everything on the spectrum. We’d mark invisible space constantly. Jrue wasn’t even a factor because we were sliced through like Swiss.

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Part of it was personnel, in fairness. For large parts of the year, several players seemed either entirely disinterested in defense, or to actively have something against it. Lonzo took a huge step back on defense from when he was in LA. Ingram did not take the step on defense that he did on offense. Redick hasn't been a positive defender for a good while now. Jax improved as the year went on, but he was still an inexperienced rookie and it showed. When Zion returned, he was clearly a step slow and I think also quite hesitant to really go for it, which meant his defense was pretty poor too.

We had Jrue, who was really good 1v1 but did take a step back as a team defender, Favors who spent most of the year either injured or recovering from injury such that his mobility was slashed, Kenrich who barely played, and Hart who was quite good but also massively undersized for the guys he ended up guarding. That's about it. That's not enough for a good team defense.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Part of it was personnel, in fairness. For large parts of the year, several players seemed either entirely disinterested in defense, or to actively have something against it. Lonzo took a huge step back on defense from when he was in LA. Ingram did not take the step on defense that he did on offense. Redick hasn't been a positive defender for a good while now. Jax improved as the year went on, but he was still an inexperienced rookie and it showed. When Zion returned, he was clearly a step slow and I think also quite hesitant to really go for it, which meant his defense was pretty poor too.

We had Jrue, who was really good 1v1 but did take a step back as a team defender, Favors who spent most of the year either injured or recovering from injury such that his mobility was slashed, Kenrich who barely played, and Hart who was quite good but also massively undersized for the guys he ended up guarding. That's about it. That's not enough for a good team defense.

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Sacrilegious, I'm sure, but team defense improved measurably (record too) when Melli became a major piece of the rotation. JAX was God-awful, save for the one highlight play every third game.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Part of it was personnel, in fairness. For large parts of the year, several players seemed either entirely disinterested in defense, or to actively have something against it. Lonzo took a huge step back on defense from when he was in LA. Ingram did not take the step on defense that he did on offense. Redick hasn't been a positive defender for a good while now. Jax improved as the year went on, but he was still an inexperienced rookie and it showed. When Zion returned, he was clearly a step slow and I think also quite hesitant to really go for it, which meant his defense was pretty poor too.

We had Jrue, who was really good 1v1 but did take a step back as a team defender, Favors who spent most of the year either injured or recovering from injury such that his mobility was slashed, Kenrich who barely played, and Hart who was quite good but also massively undersized for the guys he ended up guarding. That's about it. That's not enough for a good team defense.

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It’s a combination of factors, but it certainly can’t get any worse than it was last season. I’d hope