What do you think OKC would want for Adams? Because I'm intrigued for all the reasons you stated, but I wouldn't want to give up that many future assets to get him.
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I'm not too sure, to be honest. Their roster is kind of a hell-hole, it needs so much adding to it, and they're capped out beyond belief. They might just be willing to give him up for something like Moore and a couple of second rounders, just for the sake of cap relief.
On the other hand, they do seem to think they're in win-now mode when in reality they're in the world's slowest and least efficient rebuild, so maybe they'd want actually good players instead, and I'm not interested in sending them Ball, Jrue, Zion, Hayes, or NAW.
Dwyane Wade and Udonis Haslem Heap Praise on Hassan Whiteside for Growth and Maturity This Season
https://heatnation.com/media/dwyane-...turity-season/
I've been doing a whole bunch of probably unnecessary digging into Whiteside. Are we sure it's fair to label him as a "basketcase" or a locker room problem?
They need shooting in the worst way, so Moore might actually be a decent chip in a trade (although I really like E'Twaun and would love to keep him around). Their cap situation really is an abomination though. What do you think both sides say to Moore, Frank, and a top 20 protected 1st that becomes lottery protected after that?
Whiteside is an extremely limited player who doesn't seem to understand that his role in the NBA is becoming less and less vital, and he's fairly angry about it. He plays a very limited game, under or near the rim, with no ability to (or interest in) expanding his offensive game to include more space. Space is his problem on the other end too, because while we all know he's a very capable rim protector, he's a poor protector in space, can't really switch effectively, and is a non-factor on the perimeter. In a post-Golden State world, that's not nearly as useful as it used to be, and he's upset.
In 2018, basically a year ago now, he said this: ''Man, it's annoying, you know. Why we matching up? We got one of the best centers in the league. Why we matching up? A lot of teams don't have a good center." Now, you can argue that he's right to an extent, but in reality it's not that he's right, it's that he's looking at the league wrong. What he means is ''why am I not being given 35 minutes a night, nobody else has a center like me anymore''. Which is true, but that's not because he's Shaq, it's because centers like him are increasingly obsolete in today's game.
He was regularly complaining about his minutes and his usage, whining at almost every opportunity, even to the point where he was walking out of games alone before they were finished (as in the December 2018 loss to Orlando) and complaining to the media about his minutes after games.
That's not a good look.
Probably, their cap situation is really horrible. They might consider it for Moore and two seconds. I'd be very sceptical about giving up our own first rounder next year (it projects to be a pretty good draft class and we might still be a lottery team) and I wouldn't want to be giving up the Lakers haul to take on bad salary.
The only quibble I have, is that everything I've read would seem to put the above in the past tense. A lot can change in a year, and for him it seems like it has. He accepted his role coming off the bench the 2nd half of last season and while I have ZERO first hand knowledge (obviously), from blogs and the Miami Herald, it seems like his off court maturity turned the corner this season. One article attributed it to him getting older and having his first kid.
That aside, I would never suggest taking Whiteside in a vacuum or committing to him long term. I think you only consider it if you're getting an asset(s) in return. And again, it may only need to be a 4 month rental.
If the Pelicans really want to have as much flexibility as possible, taking on a large expiring is the way to go. Someone like Serge Ibaka would be ideal, if we could get him from Toronto for free. If a star becomes available at the deadline, we need to be able to match salary and I'd bet an expiring contract would be better than a 2 or 3 year deal.
IF Gentry/Griff believe they can get "good" Hassan, and the Heat are willing to throw in assets (maybe Dragic and a pick), I wouldn't be opposed.
That's fair. I still don't like his game, but I do admit that it could be more of a past-tense issue.
I don't view Dragic as an asset. He's yet another guard, he's 33, extremely injury prone, and he's got a contract so big that if we took him and Whiteside on, we'd actually have to give up another asset to make the salaries work. He's a cost we'd be absorbing, not an asset to take on.
I'd still much rather prefer Steven Adams if we were going down the route of ''offensively limited big men with giant contracts''. Just a much better locker-room presence for his entire career, much more fundamentally sound player who I think is totally happy to take that backseat role and to be a mentor and secondary piece.
We have something absurd like 11 second round picks right now, so honestly I wouldn't even mind throwing them three if they really wanted them.
The more I think about it, the more I think I like the idea of an Adams trade. It's not perfect, by any means, but there's a lot of upsides. He's not even 26 yet, he's efficient, he isn't turnover or foul prone, he's completely unselfish, he's a stupidly good offensive rebounder, his big man fundamentals like screening, handing off, and boxing out are extremely high level, he's a pretty good passer even though he's not a playmaker, etc etc. He'd be a great guy for someone like Hayes to learn from, and his locker-room presence would be good for the young guys given that he's so easy going and so happy to sacrifice his own numbers for wins.
There are downsides, of course. In a perfect world, we would want a big who could stretch the floor, and Adams doesn't do that whatsoever. He's not a great FT shooter either, and we have so many poor FT shooters already that it's actually painful to look at, in terms of a roster.
I do like how his contract naturally expires going into the 2021 offseason though, which is the year I wanted to make sure we had cap space for anyway. It would essentially be signing him to an overpaid 2 year deal, which is kind of the scenario we've been talking about with Horford anyway.
I think you get the pick, by taking on Dragic too. That's why I paired them. Otherwise, I think Miami just holds onto both as expiring contracts.
I'd much rather Adams too. But I'd rather the 1 year commitment on Hassan (or Ibaka, if he becomes available) vs 2 years with Adams. I could argue either way.
I think it really depends on what we think we're going to do with Ingram, oddly enough. If we plan to commit to him long term, I'd rather not have Adams on the books next year when Ingram is going to be getting his 2nd contract. If we plan on showcasing Ingram the fist 4 months of the season and then likely looking to trade him, I'd rather the massive 1 year expiring that Hassan (or Serge) would give us. Another interesting, and probably preferable option would be Tristan Thompson for 1yr at $18.5m.
I get what you mean, but what I mean is that we'd have to send out another player to make the salaries work for Dragic and Whiteside, so we'd have to make a choice on who to give up. Maybe you say we just send out Moore or something, but even then we'd be taking on like $38m in guaranteed money for next season. So we'd have to give up something else as well, because we just don't have that cap space. And, unlike the Adams trade which would cost us around $25m (leaving us with around $7m in cap space still, to try and add another piece in FA), the Whiteside/Dragic move would just devour everything and leave us with no room to make any other moves.
I don't mind the 2 years with Adams because I don't care about having cap space next summer, due to the moribund emptiness of the 2020 FA class.
Since y'all are talking about taking on Adams... I read this earlier and it brings up pretty decent points. Also points that you guys talked about as well but interesting nonetheless..
https://www-thebirdwrites-com.cdn.am...angelo-russell
If not my ideal situation of signing Beverly, Gay, and Lopez then i would like us to take Dennis Schröder and Adams off of the Thunders hands. Still try to sign Gay if the price is right. If not Ariza.
Ball,/DS/ min
Holiday,/Hart/Jackson
Ingram/Gay or Ariza/ Williams
Zion/Wood/Diallo/Hayes
Adams/Okafor/Hayes
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Changing my thought process slightly. Here is my ideal free agency.
1. Brook Lopez (2 years $36million)- One of the best shooting centers on the market who showed how valuable he was in the playoffs this year. Milwaukee was a top 10 team in pace and this guy kept up and was productive. I don’t think Milwaukee can match an annual salary this big while having to re-sign Middleton and Brogdon.
2. JaMychal Green (3 years $21million)- A nice value stretch 4 who played for Alabama in college and could be swayed to come back to the south.
3. Tomas Satoransky (3years $21million)- Very versatile backup guard at 6-7 who can play 1-3.
I think Elfrid Payton will look to compete for a starting job with a team like the Knicks.
Lineup
PG: Ball/Satoransky/Jackson
SG: Holiday/Hart/Alexander-Walker
SF: Ingram/Moore/Williams
PF: Williamson/Green/Wood
C: Lopez/Okafor/Hayes
With a team like that, you'd have to be pretty much trying to win now. It spends all our cap, so we couldn't do the ''spend some, rent some'' tactic that most people on here (including me) seem to prefer, and those three year contracts mean that we won't be flooded with cap space come 2021 free agency, especially if we end up keeping Ingram and Ball long term. It would essentially make us non-buyers in that year.
Given those restrictions, I don't like this idea. If we're going to tank our long term cap situation, it needs to be with a difference maker. Lopez/Green/Satoransky make sense if you're just trying to win next season, get 45-50 wins, make the playoffs and have a little fun, but if you're setting up to develop the youth and then make a big splash in a few years when you have the cash and the knowledge of team need, then it's a pretty bad idea, imo.
We would still have plenty of flexibility. We should not be looking to tank at any point. That mindset runs off superstars and builds a culture of losing. David Griffin is too smart to do that. In my scenario, Lopez and Holiday come off the books in 2021, and both Satoransky and Green would be easily tradable expiring contracts if we needed to make room in 2021 free agency. I don’t think Ingram or Ball will or should re-sign as max contract restricted free agents unless they improve to all star level within the next 1-2 years.
[/I] Yeah, except you probably want to be keeping Jrue in 2021. He'll be 31, which isn't exactly ancient, and he's the kind of player whose game will probably age well because it's not based on speed and burst, but instead on craftiness, touch, and intelligence. Obviously we'll be able to know more accurately closer to the time, but planning your future cap situation around the idea that you'll let a 31 year old all-star caliber player who has shown franchise loyalty go is kinda... weird, to me.
I agree that we shouldn't be looking to tank. But there's a difference between tanking, and just not being that great.
The way I see it, we should be aiming to surround our young players next year with good locker-room influences who will be able to help mold their game and aid in their development. The team should play hard, and try to win, but simply because of how much youth we have, combined with certain stylistic issues (can you really roll out a lineup of with all three of Ball, Ingram, and Zion on the floor at once, especially in the clutch? I don't know) we probably won't be a playoff team. That's not tanking. We won't be trying to lose. We'll just not be that great. I could see us winning around 38 games, but not many more, and the playoffs are unlikely. It's a developmental year for a team which will have so many new faces, including multiple rookies. If you go into that year expecting to win, the only way you can guarantee that you'll do so is by following your blueprint: sign multiple vets, and play them a lot. Feel free to do that, but don't be too surprised if it ends up limiting the amount of development you can do.
My plan wouldn’t prevent us from re-signing Jrue in 2021 if we wanted. We could easily get rid of all three of the proposed signed players in 2021 if we needed the room to pursue a max contract. These signings do nothing to prevent that. Brook Lopez would be a great locker room veteran who adds spacing on a short contract. Green and Satoransky are value versatile veteran role players who add shooting. My plan adds depth and flexibility. Your idea appears to be to sign Al Horford on a 2 year deal which he likely won’t accept and completely ignore the other weaknesses our team has right now, mainly shooting, assuring our ability to tank. I also don’t think we make the playoffs this year, but I damn sure want to try.
My idea is to sign one or two guys on short term deals, cutting off at 2 years to ensure that they aren't on the cap come 2021 free agency. Then, to use the rest of the cap space to trade for players who are good, but perhaps overpaid from teams who are in need of salary relief, using this method to both fill out the roster and potentially acquire future assets in the form of extra picks as payment for absorbing that salary.
We don't even know what weaknesses our team actually has right now. We can speculate, and obviously the most probably issue will be three point shooting, but is that a complete season destroyer? No, it's not. In case you didn't realise, we kinda sucked at three point shooting last season too, being mediocre in terms of both percentage and attempts, and somehow the game was still fun to watch and some of the rookies like Frank Jackson and Kenrich Williams were able to get some good developmental minutes in. Why? Because in Gentry's system, as long as you have guys who will run, pass, and move off-ball, you can manufacture offense even without a massive amount of shooting. There's no need to specifically drive your head into the wall on shooting immediately unless you specifically want to win as many games as possible: that is, unless you want to go win-now.
And just as a side note, two of the deals I've been talking about throughout this thread, notably Horford and Ibaka, would both add shooting anyway. So would Mythrol's suggestion to try and help Milwaukee by taking on Ilyasova's contract in exchange for a pick. This technique of adding to the roster by accepting overpaid but quality players in exchange for assets still allows you to address roster issues without adding years and years of salary that you don't want.
My plan doesn’t add “years and years” of salary as both Satoransky and Green would be on easily movable $7 million dollar expiring contracts in 2021. We sucked without shooting last year. Our plan should always be to address our weaknesses to win now while maintaining flexibility until we have a championship caliber team. My plan does just that. I would never endorse taking on crap contracts at this time. Why the hell did we just move Solomon Hill (an expiring useless contract) if we wanted to do that. Did we all of sudden become the Phoenix Suns?
Before AD pulled his awful trade request, we were still in the running for the playoffs despite having multiple serious, long term injuries and had a top ten offense in the NBA. Basically, no we didn't, at least not offensively which is the area of the game that shooting factors into.
You tell me how easy it is to get off a $7m expiring contract while I sit and watch Milwaukee desperately attempt to get rid of Ilyasova on the final year of his $7m contract. The fact is, it's only easy to get off that contract if you either attach assets like picks to do so, or the player is good. Satoransky and Green are not that good. On real, competing NBA team, they are your 4th guard and your 3rd big. They're not going to be snapped up, especially when other teams will be trying to make runs at the 2021 free agency class too.
Satoransky and Green are currently being signed to be our 4th guard and 3rd big respectively in the proposed plan. We could attach a second round pick to each player to move them. Maybe a low first for both. There will be terrible teams in 2021 like the Hawks and Suns of this year who will be looking to acquire cheap assets .Look at the contracts of Hill and Baynes who were just moved in the draft. We probably could sign either of these players to 2 year contracts this year at that $7million rate, but I wouldn’t not add that third year if that what was needed to secure their services. Ideally we would sign everyone to one year contracts, but there will likely be too much competition in the market to do so. Especially since we are not a contending team.
You see, this is my entire point. Now we're considering trading away first round picks to get off these totally pointless, unnecessary contracts. Even if you were desperate for Satoransky and Green, do you really think that signing them for the same money for 2 years is somehow like, some big sacrifice?
Hill was moved for a top 5 pick. Not the best example you could have used.
So you suggest staying out of the free agent market until we are a contending team? We are not a championship caliber team who can sign decent players on 1-year deals to chase a ring. It wouldn’t hurt my feelings to trade a top 55 protected 2nd rounder for Ilyasova instead of signing Green if that were truly an option. We do need a backup PG, so if a player like Cory Joseph would take a 2-year deal, I would be fine with that as well. I suggest these players on deals that I think will be required to sign them. If we could get better deals on comparable players, that would be fine. I do think we should address the positions of starting center, backup stretch 4, and backup PG with veteran players in free agency.
No, I've already told you twice what I'm suggesting. I'm not saying ''stay out of the free agent market until we are contending'', I'm saying ''don't give unnecessarily long contracts to players that aren't worth keeping around long term when they will interfere with better free agency classes later on''.
The most likely way we acquire future stars is through trade or draft.
Whether or not the contract is moveable in the future is the only thing I'd be worried about.
Take Bradley Beal for example. If we decide we're still in the market, and Washington becomes sellers after signing him to his max extension, we're going to need contracts to match up to that salary. If all we have is our young assets that we'd otherwise like to keep, then we can't make that deal. However if we have a large expiring contract, we more easily and equitably make that trade.
We need to meet our 2 biggest flaws right now. Shooting and Big men this free agency. I'm not a fan of going for a huge name or spending the majority of our cap room for one person. With that said, we should be going for Bogdonovic/Middleton/Gay (in the $15 to $17m range) and Mirotic/Dedmon/Bobby Portis/Lopez. Start with those two needs first. Then make whatever trades and adjistments we're gonna make next.
Did anybody see the trade on thebirdwrites with Phoenix, I would love that deal if PHX would do it. Take on the the last year of Johnson’s contract to get Bridges, and give up Bertans and maybe a 2nd rounder or two. PHX may do it, they are at 24 million in cap space, and that might not be enough to get Russell.
And Favors could come even cheaper...but with no much offense.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...-agency#slide4
Trading the No. 23 pick as part of a trade package for Mike Conley wasn't a mistake, although it meant the Utah Jazz weren't on the clock until the No. 50 pick. They also sent out a future protected first-round pick in the trade, according to Chris Herrington of the Daily Memphian.
Conley will slot in as the Jazz's new starting point guard, but they still have a hole at power forward.
That puts more pressure on the front office to make a splash in free agency.
Free-Agency Solution
The Jazz start Derrick Favors at power forward, but he's more of a natural 5. The talented big man has spent the majority of his court time at center over the past four seasons, too.
Favors would be best suited as the starting center on a team, given his rim protection (1.4 blocks per game) and lack of outside shooting (0.2 three-pointers per game on a 21.8 percent clip). Since the Jazz also have 2017-18 Defensive Player of the Year Rudy Gobert, Favors won't get that opportunity in Utah.
Instead, the Jazz can open up $16.9 million in cap space by waiving Favors by July 6 and letting him hit free agency. If they can get Julius Randle, it'd justify sacrificing Favors.
Randle, 24, would give the Jazz the floor-spacing Conley and Donovan Mitchell need while providing a large share of the offense and rebounding.
A good athlete, Randle shot a career-high 34.4 percent from deep last season while averaging 21.4 points, 8.7 rebounds, 3.1 assists and 0.7 steals per game with the New Orleans Pelicans.
After earning $8.6 million with the Pelicans last season, Randle may be happy with an annual deal worth $15-$17 million.
I’d really like to sign both a small forward and a center that can both shoot for 3, but if I can only have one give me bogdonavic who can run the 3, and play the 4 in small ball lineups, giant 2 year deal, id actually like to over pay him so he comes, we aren’t competing in the next 2 years but he would make life much easier on Zion
If we could land bogdonovic and brook Lopez for 2 years id be ecstatic, allow our young players to grow, we’ll have good draft picks and in 2 years we sign a big name and we’re contenders
Maxi Kleber: Currently being paid $ 1.1MM. Quadruple his salary ($4.4MM) over three years (3rd year Club Option). He's a rim protector that has an outside shot. Exactly what would open driving lanes for ZW. Watch the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7SZgoE_w6c
Your probably right but it is PHX. There doesn’t seem to be any clear direction there, there draft night was atrocious even beyond Cameron Johnson. Lets hope they are desperate to create max cap space and then some. I still think the best direction is to use the extra cap space to facilitate a salary dump from another team looking to not pay the luxury tax or create max cap space, and pick up another asset or two.
If we don't make a trade for someone like Adams, I'm fine with filling our cap space with veterans like Dedmond, Gay, and Collison on short term deals.
There is SOOOO much money in free agency this year.
$475m!!!
I really wonder how folks expect us to be in position to sign these contracts that are really favorable to the team. If we don't want to offer 3rd or 4th years, there is someone out there that likely will.
I'm really curious to see what teams with cap space do once the top guys are off the board. The smart thing might be to pivot to guys that other teams might want to dump, but how many teams are going to make that pivot, and what will that marketplace look like? Expecting to get an asset attached to a guy like Adams might be unrealistic if he could be an option for multiple teams.
This is why I lean (slightly) towards the possible overpay for a guy that is good - Horford or Vic - vs an overpay for a guy like Kleber that could be this offseason's Solomon Hill. Or a trade for Love, who could be in street clothes for 25 games a year.
I agree. But I think that's why I'm arguing I'd much rather pay max or near max for a top tier free agent, that I'm not projecting production for. Once you get below the top tier, I think you risk an overpay. Barring injury, top tier max guys usually retain their value. It's the Hill, Crabbe, Bazemore, Fournier, Turner type guys that people feel like they got at a discount because they were cheaper than the max guys, that end up burning teams.
Griffin says Jrue Holiday will be recruiting and leading the young guys - and he’s doing so in such a way Griff never imagined. Says Jrue is all in with these efforts.
— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) June 26, 2019
Great to hear that Jrue is really embracing this franchise player role.
Now, I'm not saying it means anything (not anything at all) but I will casually note that Jrue Holiday shares an agent with Al Horford.
Seems that the culture that Griffen is trying to create will be dictating the free agent offers this offseason - looking for defensive minded vets with winning pedigree (and at least some offensive competency). Here are the FA's that seem to fit that description.
Tier 1 Free agents (unrealistic for Pels) - Kawhi, Durant, Klay Thompson,
Tier 2 Free agents (probably also unrealistic or too costly) - Horford, Marc Gasol, Millsap, Vucevic
Tier 3 & 4 free agents (this is where the Pels should be looking IMHO) - Brook Lopez, Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Rozier, DeMarre Carroll, Ed Davis, Thaddeus Young, Looney, Dedmon, Beverly, Aminu, Sefolosha
Trade candidates that would also fit the bill: Steven Adams, Clint Capela, George Hill, Ersan Ilyasova, Kelly Olynyk