Should we keep Jrue on the team next season?

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Still waiting on answer...

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How many max players do the Cavs have? 4 right?

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

How many max players do the Cavs have? 4 right?

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How many all stars do the Cavs have? 3. How many do the Pelicans have? 2. When Lebron plays for a championship 6 years in a row, he can have what he wants. I wouldn't care about overpaying anyone if we could get talented vet min champion chasers at will. We can't compare this team to the Cavs or the Warriors. There are those two teams and everyone else to fill time slots until the Cavs and Warriors play for the championship. I just want to see the Pels routinely get to the playoffs so myself and all the sucker NBA fans can get excited.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

You have to match salaries. No team in their right mind would take Asik's contract.

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Phoenix couldn't get rid of bk for a 2nd, sounds an awful lot like a contract of ours. Except he has 3 years left going 13-15mill.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

His personal issue is likely what kept him healthy this season(on side note it's why the league should reduce the number of games in the season). If he had to endure an 82 game schedule there's no telling if this year is a "healthy" season.

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Possibly or maybe the bad luck that haunts this franchise is behind them. The pelicans as a team have been relatively healthy...asik was the only player currently on the roster to miss extended time and that was due to illness. I don't get into what ifs...the facts are jrue has been healthy far more than injured over the course of his career. Maybe it's our medical staff doing a good job after being ridiculed for so long who knows...I can only go by what has happened.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

His personal issue is likely what kept him healthy this season(on side note it's why the league should reduce the number of games in the season). If he had to endure an 82 game schedule there's no telling if this year is a "healthy" season.

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Crikey that's really stretching to undermine jrues health.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

Phoenix couldn't get rid of bk for a 2nd, sounds an awful lot like a contract of ours. Except he has 3 years left going 13-15mill.

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Knight is at least a contributor. Asik is a space filler.

It's weird to see the change of opinion on Jrue's health.

Honestly I think a lot of it has to do with(rightfully so) years of trauma from this organization mis-managing injuries or acquiring and committing to so many injury prone players. Going back to the CP3 era and most notably the infamous Tyson Chandler trade. So Pels fans are very risk averse and sensitive to any player with a major injury. I count myself into that number as well. Which was a small part of why I liked Buddy's seemingly teflon medical history in spite of what many doctors consider in this day to be far too rigorous of a training and practice schedule. And what I like with Cousins.

But if we step back, Jrue was known as sort of an iron man prior to his injury. One that was exacerbated and made worse by two organizations for reasons of selfishness and incompetence. By most accounts Jrue should have a fairly healthy career going forward given the nature of that injury. Especially with his somewhat risk averse play style. He has a big frame but he doesnt really seek contact or spend a lot of time around the rim or off his feet. So much so it is probably to a fault.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

Knight is at least a contributor. Asik is a space filler.

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Knight can't even see the floor and when he got the chance he told them he isn't playing and used back spasms as the reason. He isn't contributing anything. Zero defense, poor shot selection, unwilling passer. All statements used by Phoenix fans to describe him. If you are that worried about cap space from jrue, and you want to stay flexible then you may as well start Jordan Crawford he will give.you just as much for far cheaper.



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I like Jrue as a player. He's a good all-around guard, pretty good stroke, above average defender, nice ball handler and distributor. Is he a floor leader in the mold of Chris Paul, Mike Conley or even Steph Curry? Not that we've seen. And he doesn't seem to like big moments or the spotlight. He shrinks instead of expanding. For those reasons, I don't think you can go max on him. I'd hard cap at $20 million. If someone offers more, you let him go. I don't care that you don't have an immediate Plan B or perfect substitute. If experience teaches anything it's that having some flexibility will allow you to take advantage of unforeseen opportunities. I'd take that chance rather than overpay and be stuck.

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

How many all stars do the Cavs have? 3. How many do the Pelicans have? 2. When Lebron plays for a championship 6 years in a row, he can have what he wants. I wouldn't care about overpaying anyone if we could get talented vet min champion chasers at will. We can't compare this team to the Cavs or the Warriors. There are those two teams and everyone else to fill time slots until the Cavs and Warriors play for the championship. I just want to see the Pels routinely get to the playoffs so myself and all the sucker NBA fans can get excited.

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I'm not interested in arguing over what is a stupid premise to begin with. I answered the question that was asked, that's it.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

Crikey that's really stretching to undermine jrues health.

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A stretch in what way? If the science is telling us that the full season is stressful on the body and can lead to increase injuries and Holiday missed 30 something games thus playing a 50 game season it's totally logical to suspect missing those games help Jrue remain healthy the remainder of the season.

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His personal issue is likely what kept him healthy this season(on side note it's why the league should reduce the number of games in the season). If he had to endure an 82 game schedule there's no telling if this year is a "healthy" season.

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It's a broad sweeping statement using words like "likely" and "no telling" to insinuate that he wouldn't have remained healthy if he played all 82 ("there's no telling"). Why bring it up then if there is no telling? Why try and make it seem like a big valid question mark? How can something be likely if there is no telling? It would apply to every single NBA player, not specifically to Jrue, yet it is only used against Jrue in this circumstance. You have no evidence to show that Jrue would have been injured had he played the full season, its a lazy swipe trying to use "science" to cause doubt over his health specifically in the context of devaluing him as a player and his worth. What person isn't fully aware that players of professional sport are at an increased risk of injury?

I was about to take up for Jrue's anti-clutch play because I remembered a few games last season where he came up big, but I then decided to look at the numbers to see what they say, lets just say, they are really ugly.

Last two minutes of games within 5 points over the last two years:

FG% = 31% (not awful for a guard, lots of star players have pretty comparable numbers here)

3P%= 20% (again, not great, but he is still statistically better then James Harden in these two stats over the last two years, so maybe you can excuse it a bit)

Assists/TOV = 21 assists, 19 TOV (This is where it starts getting ugly, it is pretty much a coin flip if you give Jrue the ball and ask him to move it, whether he will turn it over or not in the last 2 minutes of close games). That puts you in a pretty compromising position as a team when so many games each season come down to how you manage the last minutes of a game.

FT% = Last year was commendable at 91%, but this year he is shooting a paltry 61% in the clutch.

All four of those together are what sinks him for me. Because at least with someone like Harden or Westbrook you can say, well, he is the focal point of defenders, it is going to be hard for them. But both of them over the last two seasons produce much better Assist/TOV numbers and get to the line and knock down their shots. Not to mention someone like Westbrook is just ungodly in Net Rating under these metrics.

Someone might say, well, you are comparing Jrue to two of the best in the game. Fine, fair point. But when you examine lesser players like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Ish Smith, Dennis Schroeder, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe they all measure out better in totality with these offensive metrics.

Where Jrue should get some credit is being a plus defender in the clutch. In that capacity he has been acceptable. To me it seems like whatever we do, Jrue is not the guy you want to be giving a lot of responsibility to in the clutch on a regular basis.

And in that sense, maybe that is why you look to bring in a Darren Collison type to play with Jrue. And to those looking at alternatives. One guy jumped out at me in these numbers and that was Jeff Teague. I wasn't expecting it but he is shooting a comparable percentage to Jrue(33%) BUT has not even turned the ball over in the clutch this season. And only three times all last season. For a sport that often comes down to how you close games, that is an impressive resume as a facilitator for Teague. His Net Rating is also pretty spectacular at +16 over the last two seasons.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I was about to take up for Jrue's anti-clutch play because I remembered a few games last season where he came up big, but I then decided to look at the numbers to see what they say, lets just say, they are really ugly.

Last two minutes of games within 5 points over the last two years:

FG% = 31% (not awful for a guard, lots of star players have pretty comparable numbers here)

3P%= 20% (again, not great, but he is still statistically better then James Harden in these two stats over the last two years, so maybe you can excuse it a bit)

Assists/TOV = 21 assists, 19 TOV (This is where it starts getting ugly, it is pretty much a coin flip if you give Jrue the ball and ask him to move it, whether he will turn it over or not in the last 2 minutes of close games). That puts you in a pretty compromising position as a team when so many games each season come down to how you manage the last minutes of a game.

FT% = Last year was commendable at 91%, but this year he is shooting a paltry 61% in the clutch.

All four of those together are what sinks him for me. Because at least with someone like Harden or Westbrook you can say, well, he is the focal point of defenders, it is going to be hard for them. But both of them over the last two seasons produce much better Assist/TOV numbers and get to the line and knock down their shots. Not to mention someone like Westbrook is just ungodly in Net Rating under these metrics.

Someone might say, well, you are comparing Jrue to two of the best in the game. Fine, fair point. But when you examine lesser players like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Ish Smith, Dennis Schroeder, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe they all measure out better in totality with these offensive metrics.

Where Jrue should get some credit is being a plus defender in the clutch. In that capacity he has been acceptable. To me it seems like whatever we do, Jrue is not the guy you want to be giving a lot of responsibility to in the clutch on a regular basis.

And in that sense, maybe that is why you look to bring in a Darren Collison type to play with Jrue. And to those looking at alternatives. One guy jumped out at me in these numbers and that was Jeff Teague. I wasn't expecting it but he is shooting a comparable percentage to Jrue(33%) BUT has not even turned the ball over in the clutch this season. And only three times all last season. For a sport that often comes down to how you close games, that is an impressive resume as a facilitator for Teague. His Net Rating is also pretty spectacular at +16 over the last two seasons.

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Nice post. Please re-post when Dell signs Holiday to his ridiculous 25 million dollar contract.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I was about to take up for Jrue's anti-clutch play because I remembered a few games last season where he came up big, but I then decided to look at the numbers to see what they say, lets just say, they are really ugly.

Last two minutes of games within 5 points over the last two years:

FG% = 31% (not awful for a guard, lots of star players have pretty comparable numbers here)

3P%= 20% (again, not great, but he is still statistically better then James Harden in these two stats over the last two years, so maybe you can excuse it a bit)

Assists/TOV = 21 assists, 19 TOV (This is where it starts getting ugly, it is pretty much a coin flip if you give Jrue the ball and ask him to move it, whether he will turn it over or not in the last 2 minutes of close games). That puts you in a pretty compromising position as a team when so many games each season come down to how you manage the last minutes of a game.

FT% = Last year was commendable at 91%, but this year he is shooting a paltry 61% in the clutch.

All four of those together are what sinks him for me. Because at least with someone like Harden or Westbrook you can say, well, he is the focal point of defenders, it is going to be hard for them. But both of them over the last two seasons produce much better Assist/TOV numbers and get to the line and knock down their shots. Not to mention someone like Westbrook is just ungodly in Net Rating under these metrics.

Someone might say, well, you are comparing Jrue to two of the best in the game. Fine, fair point. But when you examine lesser players like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Ish Smith, Dennis Schroeder, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe they all measure out better in totality with these offensive metrics.

Where Jrue should get some credit is being a plus defender in the clutch. In that capacity he has been acceptable. To me it seems like whatever we do, Jrue is not the guy you want to be giving a lot of responsibility to in the clutch on a regular basis.

And in that sense, maybe that is why you look to bring in a Darren Collison type to play with Jrue. And to those looking at alternatives. One guy jumped out at me in these numbers and that was Jeff Teague. I wasn't expecting it but he is shooting a comparable percentage to Jrue(33%) BUT has not even turned the ball over in the clutch this season. And only three times all last season. For a sport that often comes down to how you close games, that is an impressive resume as a facilitator for Teague. His Net Rating is also pretty spectacular at +16 over the last two seasons.

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i said in this thread that if teague would agree to sign here,,ill take him over jrue...teague give you the same or more in offense plus he goes to the FT line way more than jrue..alot more........hell, i take teague and jrue in the back court together if that can happen.......

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

How many max players do the Cavs have? 4 right?

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There's a difference in maxes. But nice try.
The only guys making anything close to real maxes are Love and James. Kyrie's deal averages $18.8m. That's Allen Crabbe money! And that's a team that was built for championship or bust.
Even then, they made Tristan Thompson sweat out an entire summer before they signed him to a deal averaging $16.5m. Coming off of a Finals appearance, knowing the cap was spiking, they still didn't rush into signing Thompson.

The only team I can think of that gave 3 guys close to real maxes and had it ultimately work was the Heat.


In this scenario you're saying Jrue is your Bosh. But Jrue aint no damn Bosh!

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

I'm not interested in arguing over what is a stupid premise to begin with. I answered the question that was asked, that's it.

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You have an idea how to build this team. I ask which team has followed a similar approach? How is that a stupid premise?

If you told me you wanted to be a doctor, but you didn't care about how it was people went about becoming great doctors, I'd say you were the one who was being a tad bit stupid!

In what world has asking if something is a best practice become a stupid premise?!?

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I was about to take up for Jrue's anti-clutch play because I remembered a few games last season where he came up big, but I then decided to look at the numbers to see what they say, lets just say, they are really ugly.

Last two minutes of games within 5 points over the last two years:

FG% = 31% (not awful for a guard, lots of star players have pretty comparable numbers here)

3P%= 20% (again, not great, but he is still statistically better then James Harden in these two stats over the last two years, so maybe you can excuse it a bit)

Assists/TOV = 21 assists, 19 TOV (This is where it starts getting ugly, it is pretty much a coin flip if you give Jrue the ball and ask him to move it, whether he will turn it over or not in the last 2 minutes of close games). That puts you in a pretty compromising position as a team when so many games each season come down to how you manage the last minutes of a game.

FT% = Last year was commendable at 91%, but this year he is shooting a paltry 61% in the clutch.

All four of those together are what sinks him for me. Because at least with someone like Harden or Westbrook you can say, well, he is the focal point of defenders, it is going to be hard for them. But both of them over the last two seasons produce much better Assist/TOV numbers and get to the line and knock down their shots. Not to mention someone like Westbrook is just ungodly in Net Rating under these metrics.

Someone might say, well, you are comparing Jrue to two of the best in the game. Fine, fair point. But when you examine lesser players like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Ish Smith, Dennis Schroeder, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe they all measure out better in totality with these offensive metrics.

Where Jrue should get some credit is being a plus defender in the clutch. In that capacity he has been acceptable. To me it seems like whatever we do, Jrue is not the guy you want to be giving a lot of responsibility to in the clutch on a regular basis.

And in that sense, maybe that is why you look to bring in a Darren Collison type to play with Jrue. And to those looking at alternatives. One guy jumped out at me in these numbers and that was Jeff Teague. I wasn't expecting it but he is shooting a comparable percentage to Jrue(33%) BUT has not even turned the ball over in the clutch this season. And only three times all last season. For a sport that often comes down to how you close games, that is an impressive resume as a facilitator for Teague. His Net Rating is also pretty spectacular at +16 over the last two seasons.

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Yeah MM touched on this with Ryan on the latest In the NO, and its definitely a problem. The question is then why is Jrue poor in these late game situations and is it something the organization believes he can overcome? I feel like someone brought up Jrue's confidence being rather low at some point recently (not sure if it was here, or one of the writers in an article). Did you happen to see his numbers prior to the last two years? Has it always been a problem? Be interesting to see if the last few years circumstances have caused this (you touched on it in another post elsewhere - think it was you, about how his development has been stunted due to the injuries and offseason interrupts when compared to his peers). And/or how much of this has been in his head, him trying to do too much and putting pressure on himself. I think Alvin has touched on it quite a bit, him trying to do too much and overthinking everything.

You can only imagine the front office would be discussing these things internally around budgeting for him, his value, can they turn it around quick enough or is it simpler to chase a Teague. I think its safe to say though that every org interested in Jrue has already looked at Teague and they are all going to be high price tags - the free agent market for decent starting guards is pretty dry this and next season I think. I don't know if its realistic numbers wise, but certainly if it was possible I think everyone would be open to 6war's suggestion of pairing the two.

Jeff Teague will get about the same as Jrue in FA.

Maybe 2 or 3M difference.
Are we really worried about 2 or 3M?

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

It's a broad sweeping statement using words like "likely" and "no telling" to insinuate that he wouldn't have remained healthy if he played all 82 ("there's no telling"). Why bring it up then if there is no telling? Why try and make it seem like a big valid question mark? How can something be likely if there is no telling? It would apply to every single NBA player, not specifically to Jrue, yet it is only used against Jrue in this circumstance. You have no evidence to show that Jrue would have been injured had he played the full season, its a lazy swipe trying to use "science" to cause doubt over his health specifically in the context of devaluing him as a player and his worth. What person isn't fully aware that players of professional sport are at an increased risk of injury?

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What are you talking about. When trying to decide if player X is worth Y and your job depends on it you had better consider all things. The idea that Jrue was aided by missing a significant amount of games isn't unfair it's a likely scenario and most certainly something to consider. Clearly we'll never know what impact not playing did for Jrue's health, but to say well then don't mention it because we don't know for sure is simplistic.

This team can't stay status quo. Signing Holiday wouldn't progress this team. It would actually make it worse because it'll be yet another terrible contract that would hamstring our ability to put a competitive team together that doesn't include all of these end of the bench players.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

What are you talking about. When trying to decide if player X is worth Y and your job depends on it you had better consider all things. The idea that Jrue was aided by missing a significant amount of games isn't unfair it's a likely scenario and most certainly something to consider. Clearly we'll never know what impact not playing did for Jrue's health, but to say well then don't mention it because we don't know for sure is simplistic.

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But your job doesn't depend on it. You are a message board poster making assumptions based on nothing. Simple fear mongering. You only presented one side of the picture, the part that suits your argument. You used the sentence "its likely that...", even though there is nothing to show how or why it is likely. It could potentially be possible, but then again it could very well be possible Jrue would have played just about every game.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

But your job doesn't depend on it. You are a message board poster making assumptions based on nothing. Simple fear mongering. You only presented one side of the picture, the part that suits your argument. You used the sentence "its likely that...", even though there is nothing to show how or why it is likely. It could potentially be possible, but then again it could very well be possible Jrue would have played just about every game.

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So based on your position you don't think PED's aid athletes in anyway and think it's simply "fear mongering" to suggest otherwise? Because after all how can we ever know just how much or little or even if steroids or human growth hormones aids a player. Being simple completely ignorant fans in all.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

So based on your position you don't think PED's aid athletes in anyway and think it's simply "fear mongering" to suggest otherwise? Because after all how can we ever know just how much or little or even if steroids or human growth hormones aids a player. Being simple completely ignorant fans in all.

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I try not to make claims based on things I can't back up. OR if it is something I think could be possible but can't back up, I frame it in such a way that it is clearly my opinion or a pondering question. That is it. No need to get sooky because I called you what you are, I'm just a message board poster too. But you go on and put words in my mouth.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

There's a difference in maxes. But nice try.
The only guys making anything close to real maxes are Love and James. Kyrie's deal averages $18.8m. That's Allen Crabbe money! And that's a team that was built for championship or bust.
Even then, they made Tristan Thompson sweat out an entire summer before they signed him to a deal averaging $16.5m. Coming off of a Finals appearance, knowing the cap was spiking, they still didn't rush into signing Thompson.

The only team I can think of that gave 3 guys close to real maxes and had it ultimately work was the Heat.


In this scenario you're saying Jrue is your Bosh. But Jrue aint no damn Bosh!



You have an idea how to build this team. I ask which team has followed a similar approach? How is that a stupid premise?

If you told me you wanted to be a doctor, but you didn't care about how it was people went about becoming great doctors, I'd say you were the one who was being a tad bit stupid!

In what world has asking if something is a best practice become a stupid premise?!?

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It's a stupid premise because teams have different cap situations from us. We are in a new world of the NBA where. You used to only see 2 max deals on a team, now we are seeing 3 and sometimes even 4. This isn't a "how to be a doctor" discussion because there is no standardized way to try to win a championship.

Even if we exclude the Cavs, there is still the Clippers and Memphis. There's also a lot of other teams who will very soon be facing similar decisions. Possibly Utah, Boston, Portland is already cap strapped and still will have more decisions to make soon, the Warriors are about to have to pay Curry and that will be 3 max and a 4th near max on their team.

So again, you asked a question, I answered it.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

I try not to make claims based on things I can't back up. OR if it is something I think could be possible but can't back up, I frame it in such a way that it is clearly my opinion or a pondering question. That is it. No need to get sooky because I called you what you are, I'm just a message board poster too. But you go on and put words in my mouth.

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This again is far too simplistic. When players, trainers, sport scientists, coaches, and executives all talk about the impact of fatigue and injuries and Holiday misses months of fatigue "suggesting" that said time off aided Jrue and remaining healthy isn't throwing something against the wall and hoping it sticks. Glad everyone doesn't think like you. We'd all be stuck in the Bronze Age most great discoveries start with someone's thoughts they couldn't back up.

well,,diallo is looking good in the game tonight...

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

It's a stupid premise because teams have different cap situations from us. We are in a new world of the NBA where. You used to only see 2 max deals on a team, now we are seeing 3 and sometimes even 4. This isn't a "how to be a doctor" discussion because there is no standardized way to try to win a championship.

Even if we exclude the Cavs, there is still the Clippers and Memphis. There's also a lot of other teams who will very soon be facing similar decisions. Possibly Utah, Boston, Portland is already cap strapped and still will have more decisions to make soon, the Warriors are about to have to pay Curry and that will be 3 max and a 4th near max on their team.

So again, you asked a question, I answered it.

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Warriors will be paying the cost of being the best team in the league. Every guy on that roster deserves the contract they'll receive, but once Curry gets his max, they'll be hard pressed to fill out the rest of the roster and have any sort of bench.

Portland is an example of a team that the Pelicans should try to avoid duplicating, and a near perfect example of why you don't overpay your own players just because you're afraid to lose them. They've got two guys, Lillard and McCullum, that play to the level of their contract. Now they're stuck. Competing for the 8th seed and pushing up against the luxury tax.

It will be interesting to see what Utah does with Hill. They obviously throw the max at Hayward, but Hill would put them in a tight spot to keep key role players like Exum, Hood, and Favors after next year. Keeping Ingles might even be tough this year. Can a 4/5 seed in the West lose that much talent over the next two years and keep up? I bet they don't max Hill, because their GM is smarter and better than the Pelicans GM, or so yall have told me.

Boston is interesting. They're going to be the #1 seed in the East this year. Their entire payroll seems like it's only a few million more than what we could be paying AD, Cousins, and Jrue in a couple of years! I guarantee you, when/if Danny Ainge finally gives out that 3rd max contract he will be completing a team that is competing for an NBA title, not betting on a roster he hopes can make a playoff run. That team doesn't have to resign any of their own free agents this summer and they will add a #1 overall pick to the core of a 1 seed. Phenomenal job by Danny!!!

So we're left with the Pels being Portland as a worse case if we resign Jrue to a max and we're stuck with a capped out roster... And Memphis as the best case. An 8 seed, or a 7 seed.

And I'll admit this is all assuming Jrue doesn't become a much better basketball player. If he does that, I'll be pleasantly surprised and delighted. I'll even buy Holiday jerseys for the family and agree to one of those goofy season ticket holder promos during the game where we grin with delight while holding a big Smoothie King smoothie and holding our tickets.

I just have no reason to believe that will happen because you can't point to a time in NBA history where what you're proposing has worked out.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

This again is far too simplistic. When players, trainers, sport scientists, coaches, and executives all talk about the impact of fatigue and injuries and Holiday misses months of fatigue "suggesting" that said time off aided Jrue and remaining healthy isn't throwing something against the wall and hoping it sticks. Glad everyone doesn't think like you. We'd all be stuck in the Bronze Age most great discoveries start with someone's thoughts they couldn't back up.

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Keep getting personal about it. I'm not here because I want to think like everyone else, and for you of all the people on this board throwing shade about how someone thinks is pretty surprising. You aren't Einstein here, you aren't going out to do anything to prove your nothing statement. What you have said is not the theory of relativity. You said it is likely the reason why Jrue stayed healthy. If you can't simply convince me or back it up, then something must be wrong with your argument. I mean, you have to criticize my thinking to undermine my ability to comprehend your point of view?

As an exercise, can you go and research the "months of fatigue" Jrue missed? How many months did he miss this season? You write as if he only started playing in January.

Tonight's game only helps us evaluate guys and increase lottery odds, but why isn't Jrue doing anything special out there getting 30 minutes. The turnovers are back. I hope Dell and Gentry are consciously letting him play himself out of a max deal, but unfortunately all it takes is one team like Philly or Knicks to bump his value.

But I'd been saying $20m is my limit, and I'm thinking about lowering that.

I never thought this franchise considered offering Jrue the max or near max. Was just rumor and blogger talk. Why would you decide something like that in the middle of the freaking season? The thought makes no sense at all.

Their number one priority was getting a true, offensive center next to AD and mission accomplished.

Jrue on the other hand, is one step above a JAG. He does absolutely nothing to really stand out. People thought it was because of having to share the court with Cousins and AD. The last 2 games says otherwise.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

Yeah MM touched on this with Ryan on the latest In the NO, and its definitely a problem. The question is then why is Jrue poor in these late game situations and is it something the organization believes he can overcome? I feel like someone brought up Jrue's confidence being rather low at some point recently (not sure if it was here, or one of the writers in an article). Did you happen to see his numbers prior to the last two years? Has it always been a problem? Be interesting to see if the last few years circumstances have caused this (you touched on it in another post elsewhere - think it was you, about how his development has been stunted due to the injuries and offseason interrupts when compared to his peers). And/or how much of this has been in his head, him trying to do too much and putting pressure on himself. I think Alvin has touched on it quite a bit, him trying to do too much and overthinking everything.

You can only imagine the front office would be discussing these things internally around budgeting for him, his value, can they turn it around quick enough or is it simpler to chase a Teague. I think its safe to say though that every org interested in Jrue has already looked at Teague and they are all going to be high price tags - the free agent market for decent starting guards is pretty dry this and next season I think. I don't know if its realistic numbers wise, but certainly if it was possible I think everyone would be open to 6war's suggestion of pairing the two.

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Glancing at it it seems to be a career long problem.

in 14-15 he was 25% FG, 61% FT, 12 assists, 8 TOV under those metrics I mentioned.

Going back further he had a good shooting percentage his first two seasons in the league. Still, that is soured by him having more turnovers then assists those two seasons under those metrics.

What is concerning is that Cousins is also a very poor clutch player. He turns it over a lot. That is kinda a big hill to overcome if you are going to be going into battle in the waning minutes of games with two of the most turnover prone clutch players in the league.



...The ironic thing if we ended up going after Teague is that he is who we probably would of targeted had we not gave up two first rounders for Jrue back in 2013. With the logic being that Jrue was going to be the better player going forward and was a sure thing. Years later and a strong case can be made that Teague is the better overall player.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

Glancing at it it seems to be a career long problem.

in 14-15 he was 25% FG, 61% FT, 12 assists, 8 TOV under those metrics I mentioned.

Going back further he had a good shooting percentage his first two seasons in the league. Still, that is soured by him having more turnovers then assists those two seasons under those metrics.

What is concerning is that Cousins is also a very poor clutch player. He turns it over a lot. That is kinda a big hill to overcome if you are going to be going into battle in the waning minutes of games with two of the most turnover prone clutch players in the league.



...The ironic thing if we ended up going after Teague is that he is who we probably would of targeted had we not gave up two first rounders for Jrue back in 2013. With the logic being that Jrue was going to be the better player going forward and was a sure thing. Years later and a strong case can be made that Teague is the better overall player.

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Nice pun.

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

Keep getting personal about it. I'm not here because I want to think like everyone else, and for you of all the people on this board throwing shade about how someone thinks is pretty surprising. You aren't Einstein here, you aren't going out to do anything to prove your nothing statement. What you have said is not the theory of relativity. You said it is likely the reason why Jrue stayed healthy. If you can't simply convince me or back it up, then something must be wrong with your argument. I mean, you have to criticize my thinking to undermine my ability to comprehend your point of view?

As an exercise, can you go and research the "months of fatigue" Jrue missed? How many months did he miss this season? You write as if he only started playing in January.

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Your whole position is a contradiction. You say you only talk about what you can back up, yet you called my my assertion that missing time aided Holiday a "stretch" without any way to back it up! I don't have a problem with the way you feel, but you are questioning me because I don't think like you that's why we are even having this discussion.

Here's the thing if you miss 16 games that's 16 games you aren't puting your body through the stressful NBA season.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Your whole position is a contradiction. You say you only talk about what you can back up, yet you called my my assertion that missing time aided Holiday a "stretch" without any way to back it up! I don't have a problem with the way you feel, but you are questioning me because I don't think like you that's why we are even having this discussion.

Here's the thing if you miss 16 games that's 16 games you aren't puting your body through the stressful NBA season.

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I understand the premise behind it, my issue is how you word/presented it. Anyway Im happy to move along, this has over run its course.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by billfromfinance

I understand the premise behind it, my issue is how you word/presented it. Anyway Im happy to move along, this has over run its course.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

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I clearly misunderstood your point. I hate arguing semantics if I would have known that was your whole point I would have never even responded. So we can agree to move on.

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

I was about to take up for Jrue's anti-clutch play because I remembered a few games last season where he came up big, but I then decided to look at the numbers to see what they say, lets just say, they are really ugly.

Last two minutes of games within 5 points over the last two years:

FG% = 31% (not awful for a guard, lots of star players have pretty comparable numbers here)

3P%= 20% (again, not great, but he is still statistically better then James Harden in these two stats over the last two years, so maybe you can excuse it a bit)

Assists/TOV = 21 assists, 19 TOV (This is where it starts getting ugly, it is pretty much a coin flip if you give Jrue the ball and ask him to move it, whether he will turn it over or not in the last 2 minutes of close games). That puts you in a pretty compromising position as a team when so many games each season come down to how you manage the last minutes of a game.

FT% = Last year was commendable at 91%, but this year he is shooting a paltry 61% in the clutch.

All four of those together are what sinks him for me. Because at least with someone like Harden or Westbrook you can say, well, he is the focal point of defenders, it is going to be hard for them. But both of them over the last two seasons produce much better Assist/TOV numbers and get to the line and knock down their shots. Not to mention someone like Westbrook is just ungodly in Net Rating under these metrics.

Someone might say, well, you are comparing Jrue to two of the best in the game. Fine, fair point. But when you examine lesser players like Mike Conley, Jeff Teague, Ish Smith, Dennis Schroeder, Darren Collison, and Eric Bledsoe they all measure out better in totality with these offensive metrics.

Where Jrue should get some credit is being a plus defender in the clutch. In that capacity he has been acceptable. To me it seems like whatever we do, Jrue is not the guy you want to be giving a lot of responsibility to in the clutch on a regular basis.

And in that sense, maybe that is why you look to bring in a Darren Collison type to play with Jrue. And to those looking at alternatives. One guy jumped out at me in these numbers and that was Jeff Teague. I wasn't expecting it but he is shooting a comparable percentage to Jrue(33%) BUT has not even turned the ball over in the clutch this season. And only three times all last season. For a sport that often comes down to how you close games, that is an impressive resume as a facilitator for Teague. His Net Rating is also pretty spectacular at +16 over the last two seasons.

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This is really the only criticism of Jrue that actually has merit. People saying he can't distribute the ball and run the offense, can't get to the lane, that's all lies. Here we actually have something that is backed up with data. Jrue has not done well in the clutch. This is an area to work on, maybe with specific plays to go to in the final minute, maybe some sports psychology stuff, or maybe just having a different guy you want to depend on with the game on the line.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

This is really the only criticism of Jrue that actually has merit. People saying he can't distribute the ball and run the offense, can't get to the lane, that's all lies. Here we actually have something that is backed up with data. Jrue has not done well in the clutch. This is an area to work on, maybe with specific plays to go to in the final minute, maybe some sports psychology stuff, or maybe just having a different guy you want to depend on with the game on the line.

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Unfortunately I think some people are going overboard with the criticism of Jrue to make the point that he doesn't deserve anything near a max contract, but let's not forget Holiday is a very solid player and very multifaceted.

Jrue doesn't have Chris Paul or Westbrook's killer instinct.

In big moments going forward, best option needs to be find someone who can handle the ball and make plays. I think Jrue would be find in a catch and shoot siituation or cutting backdoor. Not sure how we can do it, but we could really stand to find someone who can handle the rock in...

Iggy.

Could we somehow get Iggy? Or someone like him?

I think Jrue as our starting SG and occasional spot PG start would be perfect for him. I think defensively he is great for the SG role the problem lies on the offensive side. I think he can be an good off ball spot up shooter, some back door cuts, and occasional drives to the hoop as a SG (a lot better than EG). He just needs to have a little more of the selfish streak that Davis has gotten. When that happens I think his game will take the next step up. So my offseason would be to either grab a PG or a combo guard then of course another SF. Love to get Blossomgame or Bacon in the second round both 6'7 athletic freaks.

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Originally Posted by tdcreator

I think Jrue as our starting SG and occasional spot PG start would be perfect for him. I think defensively he is great for the SG role the problem lies on the offensive side. I think he can be an good off ball spot up shooter, some back door cuts, and occasional drives to the hoop as a SG (a lot better than EG). He just needs to have a little more of the selfish streak that Davis has gotten. When that happens I think his game will take the next step up. So my offseason would be to either grab a PG or a combo guard then of course another SF. Love to get Blossomgame or Bacon in the second round both 6'7 athletic freaks.

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So Dell traded two lottery pick for an all star point guard to play shooting guard.

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Originally Posted by durun

So Dell traded two lottery pick for an all star point guard to play shooting guard.

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Somebody needs to do a better job of distributing and not turning the ball over. Jrue isn't cutting it in that role.

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Originally Posted by donato

Somebody needs to do a better job of distributing and not turning the ball over. Jrue isn't cutting it in that role.

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Disagree. Jrue is good at distributing and his assist to turnover ratio is acceptable.

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Originally Posted by durun

So Dell traded two lottery pick for an all star point guard to play shooting guard.

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Jrue always was a combo guard. Try to force him to be a true point guard all we can, and we'll get little benefit out of it.

It's time for Jrue to follow Gentry out the front door of the Pelicans facility

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Originally Posted by Buckwheat

It's time for Jrue to follow Gentry out the front door of the Pelicans facility

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And then what?

I agree with everyone's assessments of Jrue as a players and how he could fit on the floor, as a SG or combo guard paired with another guard or forward who is a good ball handler and distributor.

Is that a role you're comfortable paying $25m+ for?

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

I agree with everyone's assessments of Jrue as a players and how he could fit on the floor, as a SG or combo guard paired with another guard or forward who is a good ball handler and distributor.

Is that a role you're comfortable paying $25m+ for?

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No because that's a dumb vision for the team. Jrue's natural position is point guard. He makes good passes and has the ball handling ability to split defenders off the screen. Also, the offense looks great with Cousins as a point forward at the top of the key, his passing and ball handling combined with size creates a huge problem for defenders. These are the two players who should be initiating most our offensive plays. Adding another player to the starting 5 whose primary skill set is ball handling and passing is unnecessary and takes away from the strengths of Jrue and Cousins. It also does nothing to help with the aspect that is missing from this team: marksmanship perimeter shooting.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

And then what?

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We draft a Real Point Guard that has break away speed off the dribble.
Give Crawford the starting job at the 2.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

And then what?

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Jackson, backup point with the Celts, should be available for a second.

Pretty good group of former Cats pic.twitter.com/yiJbYOIYBC

— Matt Jones (@KySportsRadio) September 11, 2015

I'm not saying, I'm just saying...

For a future 2nd round pick, I don't think you'll get any complaints from Boogie and the Brow if you brought in Brandon Knight.