Nah dude you're just wrong here. He has effectively countered all your points. Let it go. It's alright to be wrong.
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Victory: Kumar
Great debate all around though. Really good stuff!
Well then what are you going on about? My ENTIRE premise is based on Gentry misusing personnel. This has been explicitly stated.
I'm not missing this at all. NOT ONCE did I claim that his current cast is better than 14-15. NOT ONCE did I claim that the offensive talent wasn't better in 14-15. Again, the premise is that Gentry is a rigid idealogue that is stuck in his ways and not using the personnel to the best of their individual skill sets. Monty, as bad as he was in other areas, utilized AD in a better way. The offense wasn't a little better in 14-15, it was A LOT better (105.4 vs 101.4). And that's with your boys Asik, DC and Cole playing a bunch too. The 14-15 data shows a more efficient player taking more shots near the rim with a lower usage rate and frankly better metrics across the board. I simply cannot accept any argument that suggests Gentry is using him better, particularly when you look at the offensive production of a number of other players in context. No strawmen, just the same premise as always. If you want to keep trotting out irrelevant diversions to this, be my guest. But my point cannot be any more clear, and has not been disproven.
Well, as much as you'd like to believe otherwise we are both just expressing opinions. You simply cannot claim factual victory on matters of opinion, and the usage rate argument is opinion. We are both using data that best fits our narratives, at least I can admit it. But I'm not in here trying to save face with my internet buddies either.
Of course the team is better with AD on the floor, I never said otherwise (hey, one of those pesky strawmen!). I simply said that his insane usage rate is not helpful to the team's offense as a whole. It stagnates the offense, particularly our wing forwards. They just have so little to do in this system, and their production reflects that. AD does not create enough for others with his passing (unlike Shaq, Mailman, Admiral, Dream, etc...) to justify this. And as I said already once, I don't believe we have the personnel for a necessarily "good" offense. But it should be much better than 26th in the league. These are all points I have made, of course.
I said "It just does not spell success to have your PF/C dominate the ball at the expense of other players being involved." This is where AD's AST% comes into play. NOT THE TEAM'S ASSIST RATIO. Never claimed that (a wild strawman appears!).
Assist Ratio: The percentage of a team’s possessions that ends in an assist.
AST%: A metric that estimates the percentage of field goals made by a team that a particular player assisted on while he was in the game.
Completely different stats my dude.
So as I said a team's Assist Ratio is not the same stat as a player's Assist % rate. Even though the top 8 teams in AST Ratio are playoff teams, its not a point I have made or will make. There are too many factors in a good offense, and having individual scorers (like AD) is massive. I spoke only to AD's personal AST %, because it is abysmal and speaks to a problem with the offense as a whole. AD assists on 12% of his teammates baskets. Mailman doubled that in his highest usage season. Better teammates though!!! Uhh...not as much as the results show, and that's on coaching. I mean, they played Ostertag 24 mpg for crying out loud. That team was just a well oiled machine, and Sloan used Malone masterfully. And AD can be BETTER than Malone, that's the whole point! But if he's going to have that heavy of a usage he needs to create more points for his teammates from his passing. All of the other players in AD's USG% realm have MUCH higher AST% rates, even Embid (teammates tho, right?). Even Cousins is at a 25% AST rate, 108.1 OFF RTG with him ON this year. Its just not a pretty picture man. The player AD most resembles with these ratios is...Andrew Wiggins. Yeesh.
And its all on Gentry. Its definitely the guy that has 2 playoff appearances in 14 seasons. The guy that cannot craft a competent offense around a generational offensive talent. Its. Alvin. Freaking. Gentry.
No one cares. Come off it already. You hate Gentry and blame him for everything. We get it, really. As much as you're convinced, you're not swaying anyone like this. Time to move on to the next one.
This lost season has taken its toll on fans AND bloggers. We are officially divided as a fan base. We have Team Demps vs Team Gentry.
Yet here you are, as always. Chiming in with nothing of substance.
If you can't hang in these discussions and add something of value then push on. Its what I expect from the majority of this board anyway. I'm here for my own reasons, mostly to vent and provide some depth to the Gentry hate. If you are incapable of following along and understanding the points don't blame me.
Kumar, despite our disagreements on this issue, is awesome at backing up his perspective. I respect that big time. If you agree more with his opinions, cool. But neither of us "is right" on matters of opinion. Try and comprehend that as you go back to your imaginary trade threads and played out circlejerks.
Why would I need to add to what Kumar has said? He's already disproved everything you've said.
My comment was trying to help you to realize you're just arguing with yourself at this point and you should move on for your own sake. Please continue though, I've found it quite humorous to read.
Kumar backs it up with stats. I like that.
What further distances you Ogden from gaining respect, is that you continually belittle and personally attack. It can never just be a discussion about the evidence and facts, it almost always has to include that personal attack peppered in.
It is why I(and I suspect many others) don't even engage you anymore.
In your last two posts you have effectively tried to frame yourself as morally and intellectually superior while: attacking kumar, generalizing and spitting on the entire Pelicans blogging community, attacking mythrol and asserting this board is nothing but a bunch of low thinkers and that if people don't like your arguments/approach it is their mental failings at work.
As someone who mostly reads and hardly ever posts, I appreciate the time and effort that Kumar and Ogden put into their replies. Their debate has helped me better understand what's happening on the court beyond what I see as a casual fan. Seems like people want to chime in on who won and how the other should back off...I say keep it up as long as you're willing. What's the alternative? A bunch of wishful thinking posts about possible trades that will never happen? Shoot...I don't even see much difference in their opinions. One thinks Gentry is terrible and the other thinks that Gentry isn't great, but the problems aren't all his fault. Who can fault either for their opinion? I'm just enjoying the insight. Keep up the good work guys...or don't. That's what a message board is for.
My biggest issue with the entire debate was Park clearly outright hating Gentry to the point of cherry picking stats to try and frame Gentry in the worst possible light. Also either the lack of understanding TS% or outright refusing to accept what TS% is makes his posts frustrating to read and detracts from his other points - which have some validity.
I don't like Gentry either, but I put much more of the blame on players. Hating a coach to the point of refusing to accept that his system has some merit and trying to say it has made everyone worse is just false and as someone who puts so much trust in stats, quite frankly could be viewed as a dishonest thing to do.
Could our players be used more effectively? Yes of course. But a much larger issue is players being so inconsistent on offense. If I remember right we are generating something like the 5th most open shots in the NBA but only making it at the 25th highest rate. That's absolutely unacceptable and is where I feel more of our anger should be focused.
The coach creates the system and Gentry's does without a doubt put Pels players in a position to make easy shots. The players are however not making them. Could he adjust lineups and adjust schemes to make better use of our personal? Absolutely. Should our players being making more shots no matter what? Absolutely.
We won't fire anyone until the end of the season (which I fully believe we clean house this summer baring some drastic change) so I'd much rather discuss what can be done in view of Gentry being here the rest of the year and what can we do to make our players start making those missed open shots, instead of trying to debate if Gentry is down right dog **** or only just bad.
I don't hate Gentry, never said I did.
I used the stats that were related to and supported my position. That's not cherry picking, that's debating. Kumar does the exact same thing.
I explained how TS% is a limited stat in this context and not as useful for Kumar's argument as he proclaimed.. You can agree or disagree with that position, but my understanding of what the stat actually is was never in doubt.
His system has merit? Merit of what? Mediocrity? Produce evidence outside of 1 single, solitary season with a HOF 2 time MVP point guard, the best offensive PF in the NBA at his peak, and arguably the best bench in the NBA that shows he is worthy of defending, I'll wait. Outside of that anomaly he is and never has been more than a mediocre to downright awful HC, and people like you and Kumar continue to propagate notions that just aren't shown in the historical data or the current results. Its fan fiction to suggest otherwise.
Never once said the system has "made everyone worse." Strawman.
Again, don't hate him. Just acknowledging that he and his offensive system are an absolute failure as the HC of the New Orleans Pelicans.
And thank you for admitting that he could use our players more effectively. That was the premise of my entire argument with Kumar, which was pretty clear. Cmon.
Focus your anger where you want, I'll focus mine where I want. Plenty of it to go around.
Easy shots or open shots? The only "easy" shot is the highest percentage shot, wide open from 0-3 feet or a FT from a high % FT shooter. Nothing outside of that should be referred to as an easy shot. Go through my posts, I never once referred to "open" shots as being an issue. Again, creating "open" shots when you are relying so heavily on jump shooting is not some magical recipe for success. Ever occur to you that this is exactly what opposing defenses want us to do and are giving us? Its a perimeter focused offense for a team whose best player is a dominant 7 footer, and whose personnel outside of him are not very good jump shooters and have shown other abilities in year's past that he is now neutering. Is some of this on Dell? Of course, but that's not the point of this thread or my posts. This thread is about ALVIN GENTRY'S SYTEM. And its simply not working. And we haven't even gotten into his lineup decisions, which is where his ineptitude is really obvious. But that's another thread, and I am staying on topic.
Firing Gentry and moving on to another coach and system is a necessary step in the evolution of this team. This year, this summer, whenever. Just doing my part to make that clear.
You typed a whole lot and ended up at the same place as me. Gentry and Dell both will be replaced this summer is my gut feeling.
A well run organization would make a change with enough time before the trade deadline to oversee that process. The problems start above Dell and Gentry. I'll keep supporting the team, its New Orleans and I like basketball. but nothing substantial is changing until somebody else owns it, or at least somebody else is calling the shots. Maybe they luck in to something between now and then, they lucked in to CP and AD, the football side lucked in to a super bowl (of course don't get me started on which side the org truly cares about) but this organization talks about doing things the right way, but what things cost and how things look are the priority, in that order
Honestly I feel like this should be the perfect time outside of the offseason to make a GM change. But maybe I am wrong.
I know the NFL FA and Draft is coming up but we still have a bit of a downtime right now with the playoffs right?
Whose got the popcorn?
I think we need to fire loomis.
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The problem is (and maybe someone has said this), but you (Demps) hire a coach because you love his style/system. He even said this in his presser when he hired Gentry. He wanted to play uptempo, and he got the guy that can make that happen. Gentry is in the same school of ball with Mike D'antoni... push the rock up and down the court and score buckets.
Well... Dell is in charge of the personnel. He thought (for some reason) the players he had could play Gentry's style of ball. I'm not sure why he felt we had the players to do it... but I will say that he had me fooled as well. I thought surely a young cast of players that included Jrue, Tyreke, AD, Eric Gordon... we have the players to make it work. So we (I) thought.
I hear people saying Gentry "forced" his system on our players. Well that's why he was hired in the first place. He was brought in to change the pace we played, but we simply don't have the roster. Dell thought we did. WE DO NOT.
Mike D'antoni was hired by Houston, and they even signed a couple of our players, and they are thriving in Houston. Ryno and EG's style haven't changed... all they do is shoot 3s, which is what they did here. But we simply don't have the same talent around them that Houston has. Maybe if we didn't have all the injuries last year we may have done better. Who knows, but Houston might be a problem in the playoffs.
We could make it work with 2 consistent wing shooters. We have a big that can roll and catch lobs (AD), but we can't run P/R effectively because we don't have consistent shooters on the wings that defenses can respect, so every time you see AD roll to the basket there's a crowd in the paint.
I think both Jrue and AD would be soooo much better with wings that could shoot. Buddy is getting there, but we need a SF that can shoot.
Gentry's system DOES work... we just don't have the players (as a whole) to run it.