Pelicans vs Thunder (YHT) Game 1 Playoffs! GAMEDAY THREAD!

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Are you stupid? One of the first plays of the game, Ingram was parked on the block. That's an iso buddy. And it was designed. This happens all the time. Does he force iso's on his own at times. Yes, but quite often he it's by design.

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I consider taking contested fade away middies just as bad as ISO plays, so he can sit anywhere by design (if you really think that WG draws up any meaniful plays).

When the ball moves the team looks good, but BI just reverts to his bad habits when any team/player who can defend him.

BI is not a great ball handler. Takes him too long to get to his spot and then they send a second defender at him. Don’t understand why they just don’t run their offense and get somebody open, doesn’t have to always be iso at the end. Besides the iso guy won’t give the ball up and the world knows it.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Part of the superlative season I mentioned is that he hasn't been isolating all year long. For the most part he's been released from that role and, especially when Zion has been playing, he's been awesome off ball. It's allowed him so much success.

When it comes to isolation on this team, CJ has not been the issue by and large.

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Okay.. and that plays into what I'm saying. He had to do more isolating in this game. I know he's good off-ball.

I know we also have to consider that in the playoffs defenses are amped up and make it difficult to run plays. So sometimes you have to run with a broken play. Which leads to iso's and picks. This is why I'd really like to see JV on the floor. He will get a high percentage look on most possessions, which can at least collapse the defense.

To be clear, I do think Ingram needs to make decisions faster. Since he's good at making difficult shots, he will hold on to the ball too long trying to create one.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

To be clear, I do think Ingram needs to make decisions faster. Since he's good at making difficult shots, he will hold on to the ball too long trying to create one.

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This has always been my biggest problem with BI.

I know he's good at taking those shots, and it's good that he CAN hit them. It's valuable to have someone who can hit those shots.

It's not valuable at all to have someone who will break the flow of the offense so they can choose to take those difficult shots. And he loves doing that. Always has, potentially always will.

What confuses me is why he's stopped taking threes. Go back three seasons and he was taking them at a career clip. The last two years, he's taken fewer and fewer. His percentages and volume this season are misleading because he's had a few games where he exploded and they're lifting the averages, but overall this year he just hasn't bothered and when he has, he's missed.

His style is just completely out of step with the rest of the team at this point.

I agree that CJ does not have the clutch gene and Willie calls iso plays that don't work. Pels suck at scoring on the final play, we need to be up by two possessions to win.

Yeah agreed, its in his basketball DNA, that is who he is. BI can make those contested fadeaway long mid range shots better than almost anyone. Which is cool but it still sucks as a shot choice. That is his game, and does anyone believe its going to change?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

"Its not about what we need to do to free up BI. This is gonna be playoff basketball. He's gotta to continue to play through it, have some gamesmanship out there, gotta go to the FT line a bit more... Continue to play with force"

-- Willie Green on freeing up Brandon Ingram pic.twitter.com/Vxt6RcEVvi

— Pelicans Film Room (@PelsFilmRoom) April 22, 2024

Willie Green with the rare W

He's absolutely right. A lot of BI's problems this game came from him just wilting.

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This is why he's not a good coach. It's his job to find a way to free up his best players.

Examples..

Steph, Klay.. Offense designed to free them up.

Shaq, off-ball screens in the paint to get him free.

Jordan, Kobe, The triangle, was effective in catching players on the move.

Chris Webb, Dirk.. There were plays designed for Chris to catch the ball around the free throw line to make plays. Same kind of plays were ran for Dirk. There are many other examples.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

This is why he's not a good coach. It's his job to find a way to free up his best players.

Examples..

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It doesn't matter how free you get a player when they are going to choose to pass up the open shot to take the contested one anyway, as a matter of choice. You can't free someone up when they WANT difficulty.

And if you design the entire offense to free up that one guy who wants the shot profile that's so awful, you necessarily make the offense less tailored to everyone else who is playing actual good modern basketball offense.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

This has always been my biggest problem with BI.

I know he's good at taking those shots, and it's good that he CAN hit them. It's valuable to have someone who can hit those shots.

It's not valuable at all to have someone who will break the flow of the offense so they can choose to take those difficult shots. And he loves doing that. Always has, potentially always will.

What confuses me is why he's stopped taking threes. Go back three seasons and he was taking them at a career clip. The last two years, he's taken fewer and fewer. His percentages and volume this season are misleading because he's had a few games where he exploded and they're lifting the averages, but overall this year he just hasn't bothered and when he has, he's missed.

His style is just completely out of step with the rest of the team at this point.

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I don't disagree.. I don't like a lot of contested mid-range shots. If I were the coach, I'd redirect him. He doesn't take as many 3's as he should because he's not confident he's going to make them. And I can see why. He has a solid season from 3, then will regress. I can't say why, since he does seem to work on it.

I don't believe he's going to ignore the coach. He will do what he's told. I think he's doing what he's allowed to do. Under coach Pop, do you think he would be a better player? With a better shot profile/selection?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

It doesn't matter how free you get a player when they are going to choose to pass up the open shot to take the contested one anyway, as a matter of choice. You can't free someone up when they WANT difficulty.

And if you design the entire offense to free up that one guy who wants the shot profile that's so awful, you necessarily make the offense less tailored to everyone else who is playing actual good modern basketball offense.

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Oh no, you misunderstood me. I don't think Ingram is a guy you tailor an entire offense around. He's not the franchise player. I'm just saying you should have some schemes in the system for him. And yes, sometimes he will pass on open shots, and make them more difficult than they have to be. This is when you coach him, and correct him.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Oh no, you misunderstood me. I don't think Ingram is a guy you tailor an entire offense around. He's not the franchise player. I'm just saying you should have some schemes in the system for him. And yes, sometimes he will pass on open shots, and make them more difficult than they have to be. This is when you coach him, and correct him.

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He's had people trying to coach him and correct him for nearly a decade now, and it HAD been improving, and then it's regressed.

When someone keeps going back to it no matter who the coach is, no matter who the players around him are, and no matter which team he's on, surely at some point you have to lay the blame at his feet. He's not a rookie, he's finishing up year eight.

We should have kept Josh Hart .

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

He's had people trying to coach him and correct him for nearly a decade now, and it HAD been improving, and then it's regressed.

When someone keeps going back to it no matter who the coach is, no matter who the players around him are, and no matter which team he's on, surely at some point you have to lay the blame at his feet. He's not a rookie, he's finishing up year eight.

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Same things you guys don't like about his game.. I don't like either. I want to be clear on that.

I look at players like Manu, and Tony Parker, Kobe as a rook. They had to be molded and tamed to some extent.

I believe what you're saying, and others is that he can't be coached. I've not known him to be uncoachable. But maybe I'm wrong. You guys are more in tuned to what's happening in NO than I am. But if what you're saying is true, I don't know that there's a place for him in the league.

Are you saying he can't be coached?

The Bucks are sort of the mold I was referring to guys.. In terms of keeping keeping Ingram, and having another all-star like player to pair with a franchise player. Giannis, Dame, Middleton. Maybe you can get away with one franchise player and one all-star. Example being the Nuggets. That said, Zion isn't as impactful as the Jocker is currently.

So if you can trade Ingram, and put yourself in that kind of position, I'm all for it. I just don't see a trade that can do that.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Same things you guys don't like about his game.. I don't like either. I want to be clear on that.

I look at players like Manu, and Tony Parker, Kobe as a rook. They had to be molded and tamed to some extent.

I believe what you're saying, and others is that he can't be coached. I've not known him to be uncoachable. But maybe I'm wrong. You guys are more in tuned to what's happening in NO than I am. But if what you're saying is true, I don't know that there's a place for him in the league.

Are you saying he can't be coached?

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I'm saying that he has shown an unwillingness to change his game other than to increase his own workload. Any changes he has made, he's reverted on for several seasons now.

Am I saying he's completely uncoachable? No. But am I saying that we've yet to find the coach who can persuade him to change in this particular way? Yes.

He's like, a DeMar DeRozan type. Is DeMar good? Absolutely. Is his skillset sometimes valuable? Yes it is. Has he improved over time? Of course. Is he ever going to stop shooting those midrangers and become a true 3pt threat with consistency, pairing that with his creation and facilitation to play team ball in a way that's conducive to winning at the highest level?

Well, DeRozan's 34 and hasn't figured it out yet, so I don't hold out much hope.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I'm saying that he has shown an unwillingness to change his game other than to increase his own workload. Any changes he has made, he's reverted on for several seasons now.

Am I saying he's completely uncoachable? No. But am I saying that we've yet to find the coach who can persuade him to change in this particular way? Yes.

He's like, a DeMar DeRozan type. Is DeMar good? Absolutely. Is his skillset sometimes valuable? Yes it is. Has he improved over time? Of course. Is he ever going to stop shooting those midrangers and become a true 3pt threat with consistency, pairing that with his creation and facilitation to play team ball in a way that's conducive to winning at the highest level?

Well, DeRozan's 34 and hasn't figured it out yet, so I don't hold out much hope.

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Sounds fair. And I now understand your position.

Carmelo Anthony is a guy that modified his game, unfortunately he waited too late to do so. I'd prefer Ingram make the adjustments in NO, with Zion, and another fledgling all-star, but if it's not in the cards so be it. One of the ways we sort of disrupted his tendency to isolate was to play him at point when he was with the Lakers. Took him a minute, but he adjusted, and eventually started playing well. Until that changed and he was moved to SG, then SF.

He's been in the league long enough to understand what adjustments he should be making. So I'm not blaming Green entirely. Even still, If I were coach, he wouldn't be allowed to take that many contested mid-range fall aways. I'd also only give him 2 or 3 seconds to shoot, make a move, or pass. And make a move doesn't mean, make a move to shoot a highly contested shot.

Sadly, BI disappeared last night. However, that last play out of the final timeout was high schoolish at best. No ball movement at all. It was as if Willie assumed CJ was Lebron and that he could take on doubles and win. What a terrible call. All night, our offense had no flow. It was as if we have never played this team. I wish we had Zion as this would not have been close. Frustrated to see Nance get so much PT late as JV was dominating the boards especially offensive rebounds. Instead of bricking 5 relatively open looks in a row when we had a 2 point lead, he would have been there for a put back.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Because there was literally nobody else who can beat their defender.

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I agree here except the elephant in the room called Jonas. How does Willie not give Jonas a look there and at least get their defense in rotation?

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Originally Posted by P_B_&_G

I agree here except the elephant in the room called Jonas. How does Willie not give Jonas a look there and at least get their defense in rotation?

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Doesn't seem to be the elephant for us. lol We all know JV belongs out there in the 4th. I can't understand why Green is unwilling to make adjustments.

In addition to his rebounding, Jonas provides a pressure release valve for the team. Rather than try and run multiple screens against tight perimeter defense, with Chett playing as a safety in the middle, Jonas allows us to throw it into the post, command a double and allow our shooters a possible open set shot.

Jonas should have been in the lineup every time Chett was on the court.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

In addition to his rebounding, Jonas provides a pressure release valve for the team. Rather than try and run multiple screens against tight perimeter defense, with Chett playing as a safety in the middle, Jonas allows us to throw it into the post, command a double and allow our shooters a possible open set shot.

Jonas should have been in the lineup every time Chett was on the court.

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We can only hope this will happen in game 2.

Something I just learned: Trey led the NBA with the lowest TO% of the season.

It was the second lowest TO% of any player in the last 10 seasons (18-19 Langston Galloway the only one who turned it over less).

Special player.

Got to activate Hawkins, I do appreciate the energy Jose brings but we need the 20+ points Hawkins brings.

BI definitely didn?t have the best game and needs to pick it up, but Willie is easily the bigger problem here. Our final minutes of games are so bad.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Something I just learned: Trey led the NBA with the lowest TO% of the season.

It was the second lowest TO% of any player in the last 10 seasons (18-19 Langston Galloway the only one who turned it over less).

Special player.

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Trey is the reason that I?m perfectly fine with trading BI. Gives you just as much as BI on the defensive end and his defense has vastly improved over the last 3 years. His ceiling on defense vastly exceeds what BI can offer. Offensively, he is a much, much better fit with Zion. I wholeheartedly agree with those proposing a BI for Murray and Capela trade this offseason. Makes a ton of sense for both teams.

Willie Green is the best coach on the opposing team every night. Just constantly doing the wrong things at the right time.

WG's irrattional reluctance to trust Jonas in moments when matchups favor him is puzzling. Can anyone in the coaching staff help Willie understand that it's absolutely detrimental to the team's prospects? I couldn't believe my eyes while watching events unfold in the fourth quarter. This coaching was some bush league...

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Originally Posted by Ivan Balakhonov

WG's irrattional reluctance to trust Jonas in moments when matchups favor him is puzzling. Can anyone in the coaching staff help Willie understand that it's absolutely detrimental to the team's prospects? I couldn't believe my eyes while watching events unfold in the fourth quarter. This coaching was some bush league...

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Cheapest coach in the league for a reason.
This franchise is so cheap.
When it tells you that they want to win championships, it's lying as everyone knows you need to be a tax team to compete with the big boys.

They just sell you on lies and false hopes to sell enough tickets for the casual fans.

I would take Monty back in a heartbeat.

Why is it that Pels can't figure out how to get the ball to an open JV within 5 feet of the basket. Last game, there were at least three times where our guards were driving at the basket, Homgren comes out to contest/block leaving JV wide open. That's a difference between a win and a loss! The take by TM3 where he was hammered down to the floor was a clear foul but why chance it? Other teams' centers get a lot more uncontested dunks. For that matter, we seem to be able to get open dunks for Nance!!! What's up with that?

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Originally Posted by pr1840

Trey is the reason that I?m perfectly fine with trading BI. Gives you just as much as BI on the defensive end and his defense has vastly improved over the last 3 years. His ceiling on defense vastly exceeds what BI can offer. Offensively, he is a much, much better fit with Zion. I wholeheartedly agree with those proposing a BI for Murray and Capela trade this offseason. Makes a ton of sense for both teams.

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I'd like to know what your expectations are with a squad such as that one? It's clearly not a championship team. Being a lifelong Lakers fan, and now Pels fan, maybe I think differently. Is being a good team that isn't winning a championship good enough for you? Cause that's what that team is that you want.

You don't have an unlimited window with Zion. He's not going to stay in NO playing on a squad like the one you want.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

I'd like to know what your expectations are with a squad such as that one? It's clearly not a championship team. Being a lifelong Lakers fan, and now Pels fan, maybe I think differently. Is being a good team that isn't winning a championship good enough for you? Cause that's what that team is that you want.

You don't have an unlimited window with Zion. He's not going to stay in NO playing on a squad like the one you want.

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Bingo.

Now we know why you are in love with BI.

Hate to break it to you, but there is no Championship with BI or Zion as your starts pieces.
Some of us just want a team that is competitive and fun to watch.

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

Bingo.

Now we know why you are in love with BI.

Hate to break it to you, but there is no Championship with BI or Zion as your starts pieces.
Some of us just want a team that is competitive and fun to watch.

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Agree to disagree there.

I do think Zion has shown, across multiple seasons now, alongside different teammates, that he's capable of playing at the A1 level.

He's just not capable of doing so whenever Brandon Ingram is also on the court. And BI, even though he is not capable of playing at that level, is also incapable of reaching his own best self when Zion is on the floor.

Gotta choose one, and since Zion has the less onerous contract and is the better player who plays a style that's easier to build around, he's the obvious one to retain.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Agree to disagree there.

I do think Zion has shown, across multiple seasons now, alongside different teammates, that he's capable of playing at the A1 level.

He's just not capable of doing so whenever Brandon Ingram is also on the court. And BI, even though he is not capable of playing at that level, is also incapable of reaching his own best self when Zion is on the floor.

Gotta choose one, and since Zion has the less onerous contract and is the better player who plays a style that's easier to build around, he's the obvious one to retain.

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Yeah sorry....star pieces.

If Zion can develop a floater or a jump shot he will be a star, but until that happens I don't see it.
I agree one has to go and unfortunately its the guy who has regressed, won't change his shot profile and more importantly his next massive overpay in contract.

I would rather get 80cents in a dollar to add good role players next to Zion (PG and a C) then keep BI.

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

Bingo.

Now we know why you are in love with BI.

Hate to break it to you, but there is no Championship with BI or Zion as your starts pieces.
Some of us just want a team that is competitive and fun to watch.

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Your analysis is overly simplistic. What have I said about Ingram specifically that would indicate I'm harboring a bias, or being irrational. I bet you can't point to a single thing I've said. Start using your brain.

Yes, Zion as a "Star Piece" can get you a championship.

"Some of us just want a team that is competitive".. This say's it all. You don't care about championships. Hopefully your mentality is in the minority among other Pels fans. Here's what I can assure you of. You will never be able to keep talent on this squad with that mentality. It's part of the reason why the Pels haven't achieved anything noteworthy.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Your analysis is overly simplistic. What have I said about Ingram specifically that would indicate I'm harboring a bias, or being irrational. I bet you can't point to a single thing I've said. Start using your brain.

Yes, Zion as a "Star Piece" can get you a championship.

"Some of us just want a team that is competitive".. This say's it all. You don't care about championships. Hopefully your mentality is in the minority among other Pels fans. Here's what I can assure you of. You will never be able to keep talent on this squad with that mentality. It's part of the reason why the Pels haven't achieved anything noteworthy.

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They haven't been able to achieve anything because they have had cheap owner after cheap owner.
Think of the talent they have had over the last 20 years and try and tell me with an owner who is willing to spend they wouldn't have exceeded what they did in 2008.

I would love the team to win a championship or atleast compete in a final, but they are cheap with their coaches, cheap with their players and they themselves are happy with being competitive, beacuse this still sells enough tickets.

When I said I am happy with a competative team, I meant v's over paying a B+ player in BI A+ money which will effect the rest of the players like Herb, Trey, Dyson and Hawkins.
I'd rather they add role players and hope that Zion adds to his game and he will with a clear pecking order at end of game situations (which isn't there now with BI and CJ) and take this team futher than they did in 2008.

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

They haven't been able to achieve anything because they have had cheap owner after cheap owner.
Think of the talent they have had over the last 20 years and try and tell me with an owner who is willing to spend they wouldn't have exceeded what they did in 2008.

I would love the team to win a championship or atleast compete in a final, but they are cheap with their coaches, cheap with their players and they themselves are happy with being competitive, beacuse this still sells enough tickets.

When I said I am happy with a competative team, I meant v's over paying a B+ player in BI A+ money which will effect the rest of the players like Herb, Trey, Dyson and Hawkins.
I'd rather they add role players and hope that Zion adds to his game and he will with a clear pecking order at end of game situations (which isn't there now with BI and CJ) and take this team futher than they did in 2008.

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Okay.. That makes sense to me.

You'd like a championship quality squad, but it's unrealistic to expect one given the make-up of the ownership. So you would at least like a fun team to watch. I get it.

So, I guess I'll have to accept the fact that this team will never be a championship caliber team because of ownership. That's areal bummer.

Oh.. and on a Green note, regarding his comments on Ingram.

They just showed a clip on TNT of the Denver coach telling J Murray he needs to find a way to get the bodies off of him. That's a championship coach talking. This is what they're supposed to do.

It has to be on purpose to be as bad as Willie Green. I refuse to believe he isn’t throwing games.

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Originally Posted by Fedupfan

It has to be on purpose to be as bad as Willie Green. I refuse to believe he isn’t throwing games.

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We already had one banned for life for gambling. We probably will have more .

Nobody feeling sorry for the Lakers! This is great! Then Lebron/Davis presser meltdown made it worse for them.

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Originally Posted by Fedupfan

It has to be on purpose to be as bad as Willie Green. I refuse to believe he isn’t throwing games.

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Willie do like his money