What Constitutes 'Victory' in a Phoenix Series?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Game 6 would be on the 28th. 5 weeks from when he dunked between the legs. 3 weeks from when he started playing 5 on 5 (and hasnt had a setback or stopped playing, mind you)

Remember, this surgery is supposed to be a 8-10 week recovery time. Its been 9+ months. He had a setback in January and was going to be re-evaluated 6-8 weeks later. This would be nearly 17 weeks after that. Like, what are we doing here?

And to not even come out and have an official presser to give an update. Just float stuff out scattershot through Windy and Lopez to temper expectations but not say anything definite. Its all just so cowardly. Luckily, they arewinning and fans are focused on that. But man, what a frustrating FO

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I agree. The initial timeline was ridiculously short compared to what it's had to be. We eventually found it, weeks after it would have made sense for him to return, that there was a setback. That annoyed all the fans because people undersatnad a set-back but they naturally see radio silence when news is due as lying by omission. You can argue that it makes sense for the franchise to do that, and cool, but from the subjective fan perspective they had to know that hiding the problem was more annoying than just saying ''yeah there's been a set-back, it will take longer''.

Then, despite that backlash, despite the unpopularity of the move, they do it again with - as you point out - saying there would be an eval in 8 weeks and then we didn't hear anything until it was revealed he was playing 5-on-5 about 13 weeks later. And now complete silence; the team is putting out clips of his dunks, he's attending the games, and everything we're hearing from what leaks are happening is that he wants to play, and they're holding him out for... why?

Could he get injured again? Sure, but if we're at the point where you're so scared of him getting injured again that you're going to refuse to play him in winnable postseason games then what's the point of even having him?

Unless there is a valid medical reason to keep him sidelined, play him. Play him now before it's too late and we're out of the playoffs.

From the FO's pov they've already overachieved this season. We're not supposed to be here. If they sent Zion in and he got hard-fouled by Javale Mcgee/got hurt and missed more time next year---we'd never get to see our players actually play together.

I also can imagine from Zion and his family's side of things they want to experience the playoffs.

Will those hard fouls not exist next year? If the goal is to make sure Zion never here injured again, the solution is simple ….. never play him again. Ever.

His foot is the exact same now as it will be In October

I've already shared my stance repeatedly, but the biggest goal for me with any decision on Zion's playing time is what will be best for the relationship between Zion and the team. I put that above concerns of injury risk, concerns about team chemistry on the court, or about winning this series. The biggest variable right now in the long term ceiling of this team is getting Zion to happily buy into his extension and his long term prospects with the team. If we damage that relationship further this post-season by holding him out when we could play him, then his long term health may be better, but it won't matter for the Pelicans.

I agree with the two opinions above. If Zion wants to play and is already working out, jumping, cutting, jabbing, playing 5x5... what's the difference? If he could potentially get injured playing 15 minutes in a playoff game that means he could also potentially get injured doing a one or two hour workout with assistant coaches, trainers, & practice players.

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Originally Posted by DarkHornet

I've already shared my stance repeatedly, but the biggest goal for me with any decision on Zion's playing time is what will be best for the relationship between Zion and the team. I put that above concerns of injury risk, concerns about team chemistry on the court, or about winning this series. The biggest variable right now in the long term ceiling of this team is getting Zion to happily buy into his extension and his long term prospects with the team. If we damage that relationship further this post-season by holding him out when we could play him, then his long term health may be better, but it won't matter for the Pelicans.

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And that is the current issue. There is distrust building, again, that the Pels have any kind of real, tangible bar for him to clear to play again. They think its all BS, hence all his antics in the last month to allow him to progress to 1-on-1's, 5-on-5's, etc

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

And that is the current issue. There is distrust building, again, that the Pels have any kind of real, tangible bar for him to clear to play again. They think its all BS, hence all his antics in the last month to allow him to progress to 1-on-1's, 5-on-5's, etc

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I just really don't understand what the front office is doing. Is this truly just some magnanimous gesture of "We really just want what's best for your career," or is there something else there? At some point, even if it's a risk, I just feel like you need to let him own his health for better or worse.

In private, with truth serum injected, they would say that he is a commodity. And a healthy commodity, either on the trade market or to use to drive ticket sales, is worth X. He gets re-injured again, and that is now worth X minus a ton. The playoff games are gonna sell out regardless. They arent gonna win a title either way, so show to me the upside in playing him and risking the commodities value.

And that is totally true. No lies there. But he is still a human being and fans are still being ignored, or lied to. Or both. I am just not a fan of handling it that way, even though it makes total financial sense

Here's my thing: If you play him with his buy-in and he gets injured, is that a bad look to the public for "risking his health to win some games?" Sure. But it also increases the likelihood of him signing a full max extension if you want to offer it to him simply because it's guaranteed money when health is a question mark. You now have a clock of several years to either get him happy and healthy, or at least find some high point in his value to go get good assets.

If you play him and he makes it through fine, suddenly you have a Zion who was part of whatever this team accomplishes in the post season and is almost certainly willing to have a more positive attitude for the short term. Again, he's more likely to sign his extension and buy you time.

If you choose not to play him, we now go into an offseason with him disgruntled. His market value to other teams will be at an all-time low. I would not find it very likely he'd sign anything short of a max, and may think hard on that. I'm afraid he may never give New Orleans his full effort again if we shut him out of this right now. Add to that that you may need to find a trade for him this offseason or next in fear of losing him, while his value is down. Of course, I'm just a fan with no visibility to the inner workings of the front office, so what do I know?

Lopez says he is not healed enough to play-

On today's This Just In on ESPN, @_Andrew_Lopez told @maxkellerman that it is "highly unlikely we see Zion Williamson in this Pelicans-Suns first-round series. pic.twitter.com/XzTpHS9AMO

— Oleh Kosel ���� (@OlehKosel) April 22, 2022

I still think you can walk out of this series with a victory if you get to a 3rd home game (and obviously, getting to Game 7 would be awesome)

I think you have learned without a shadow of a doubt that Jax isnt a long term piece. Sure, bring him back if nobody bowls you over with a trade. But you learned to definitely not give him an extension this summer. So, now, ride Trey until the wheels fall off and let him try and fail at different things for the rest of the series so you can show him tape at the exit meeting and say, "Trey, we need to work on this, this, and that this summer"

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I still think you can walk out of this series with a victory if you get to a 3rd home game (and obviously, getting to Game 7 would be awesome)

I think you have learned without a shadow of a doubt that Jax isnt a long term piece. Sure, bring him back if nobody bowls you over with a trade. But you learned to definitely not give him an extension this summer. So, now, ride Trey until the wheels fall off and let him try and fail at different things for the rest of the series so you can show him tape at the exit meeting and say, "Trey, we need to work on this, this, and that this summer"

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I don't see how we learned that about Hayes. Lets compare him to our Herb Jones... Even though Herb is a rookie, he is 23 years old and the son of a basketball coach. Jaxson is 21 years old and a converted football player. Jaxson is very obviously still developing, and not nearly as close to his final form as other guys who have more years of experience and grew up prioritizing basketball. It does not make sense to give up on Hayes this early imo. He's the kind of guy who isn't going to reach his potential for a few more years. And then when he does, people would be asking how we let him get away.

Yep I agree with the post right above mine

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

I don't see how we learned that about Hayes. Lets compare him to our Herb Jones... Even though Herb is a rookie, he is 23 years old and the son of a basketball coach. Jaxson is 21 years old and a converted football player. Jaxson is very obviously still developing, and not nearly as close to his final form as other guys who have more years of experience and grew up prioritizing basketball. It does not make sense to give up on Hayes this early imo. He's the kind of guy who isn't going to reach his potential for a few more years. And then when he does, people would be asking how we let him get away.

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We aren't a contender yet. If Griff finds a way to upgrade that second big. You honestly do it. You don't sit and run back a 36-46 roster. You'll end up as the Atlanta Hawks. Everyone else is gonna get better. We have to reload and retool. Hayes, Graham, and Kira are looking pretty expendable.

That record doesn’t show the truth. Look at our record after CJ arrived. Then imagine adding Zion to the existing group.

I do agree Graham and Lewis are in trouble though.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

I don't see how we learned that about Hayes. Lets compare him to our Herb Jones... Even though Herb is a rookie, he is 23 years old and the son of a basketball coach. Jaxson is 21 years old and a converted football player. Jaxson is very obviously still developing, and not nearly as close to his final form as other guys who have more years of experience and grew up prioritizing basketball. It does not make sense to give up on Hayes this early imo. He's the kind of guy who isn't going to reach his potential for a few more years. And then when he does, people would be asking how we let him get away.

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Agree. Although I doubt that he is a long-term piece, not sure how we learned without a shadow of a doubt based on this bonehead play.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

We aren't a contender yet. If Griff finds a way to upgrade that second big. You honestly do it. You don't sit and run back a 36-46 roster. You'll end up as the Atlanta Hawks. Everyone else is gonna get better. We have to reload and retool. Hayes, Graham, and Kira are looking pretty expendable.

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I'll push back on this. I absolutely would have no problems running this roster back. We made major changes midseason that we are still working through. This team is an over 0.500 team since the trade. Chemistry is still being worked out. I'm in no hurry to make another move.

On the flip side, the one thing we have NOT had in the last 5 years is stability. Hell, Zion hasn't even played with most of the guys on this roster. I'm okay making an edge move (bringing in point guard depth, maybe moving on from Graham), but I'd be perfectly content just running this back next season.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

We aren't a contender yet. If Griff finds a way to upgrade that second big. You honestly do it. You don't sit and run back a 36-46 roster. You'll end up as the Atlanta Hawks. Everyone else is gonna get better. We have to reload and retool. Hayes, Graham, and Kira are looking pretty expendable.

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Zion is a power forward you know?

a backup defensive big that can give at least 10pts on offense would be good...

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

a backup defensive big that can give at least 10pts on offense would be good...

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It might need to be more than a backup.

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

a backup defensive big that can give at least 10pts on offense would be good...

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When you try to upgrade position. You only got so many minutes. It's even tighter in a playoff game.You can make a deep line-up work in the regular season.

You draft Bennedict Mathurin
Zion returns

Well, you got find about 42 minutes just to make that work.

You want to bring in a nice big to run with Jonas, and Lance.

You cut out Graham... that 13 minutes
You cut the bench mob... thats 14 minutes
You cut out Hayes... that's another 13 minutes


We are at 40 minutes for Zion and a rookie

Then, we want to bring in a playoff caliber back-up 5 that can eat about 13-18 minutes. You gonna have to dig into other players minutes to get that done.

You take about 5 minutes off Jonas, because I honestly don't think he's at his best running 30+
You take 8 minutes from Lance because of Zion and how much small ball 5 he can run
Then, you shave off minutes from everyone else.

Graham, Kira, and Hayes just don't fit if you want to make the team better. Minutes are match-up dependent still... and what if your draft pick becomes a 25 minute essential player


We are gonna have to start moving the bottom of our roster sooner or later. We are a tax team too atm.

If Pelicans did that... That's a championship team for the next 2 or 3 years.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

We aren't a contender yet. If Griff finds a way to upgrade that second big. You honestly do it. You don't sit and run back a 36-46 roster. You'll end up as the Atlanta Hawks. Everyone else is gonna get better. We have to reload and retool. Hayes, Graham, and Kira are looking pretty expendable.

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Except that isn't true at all. If we rolled out the same exact team last year, we aren't rolling out a 36-46 roster. The vast majority of that record was achieved without Zion, CJ, or BI. Just with BI and CJ with no Zion we are something like 12-4 and holding our own against what is still a really good Suns team.

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Originally Posted by Dago75

Except that isn't true at all. If we rolled out the same exact team last year, we aren't rolling out a 36-46 roster. The vast majority of that record was achieved without Zion, CJ, or BI. Just with BI and CJ with no Zion we are something like 12-4 and holding our own against what is still a really good Suns team.

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Are you just oblivious to how the NBA works?Are we gonna pretend and trust Zion to play 82 games + the playoffs? Are we gonna pretend other NBA teams won't get better by getting their stars back and adding talent? For all we know... A Super Team gets built overnight in the offseason.

I don't care if we go to WCF... You still have to improve the team in whatever way possible. Why are so you attached to bench guys that wouldn't even get minutes on other contender? Is Hayes, Kira, or Graham getting minutes on Championship squads. No. So, why you care so much about deadweight.

Tired of this Sunk cost Fallacy.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Are you just oblivious to how the NBA works?Are we gonna pretend and trust Zion to play 82 games + the playoffs? Are we gonna pretend other NBA teams won't get better by getting their stars back and adding talent? For all we know... A Super Team gets built overnight in the offseason.

I don't care if we go to WCF... You still have to improve the team in whatever way possible. Why are so you attached to bench guys that wouldn't even get minutes on other contender? Is Hayes, Kira, or Graham getting minutes on Championship squads. No. So, why you care so much about deadweight.

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Care to quote where I said that we shouldn't look to make improvements or even where i said anything about Zion ever playing again?
I simply corrected your assertion that the squad, as is, is a 36-46 team. In fact, i cited the record this team has when healthy WITHOUT ZION.

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Originally Posted by Dago75

Care to quote where I said that we shouldn't look to make improvements or even where i said anything about Zion ever playing again?
I simply corrected your assertion that the squad, as is, is a 36-46 team. In fact, i cited the record this team has when healthy WITHOUT ZION.

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You said we was a contender with the SAME EXACT roster. That clearly implies such we don't improve the roster. Context must of been off.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

You said we was a contender with the SAME EXACT roster. That clearly implies such we don't improve the roster. Context must of been off.

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Really? Quote where I said that as well.

Is that your thing? Just put words in the mouth of people who disagree with you?

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Originally Posted by Taker597

When you try to upgrade position. You only got so many minutes. It's even tighter in a playoff game.You can make a deep line-up work in the regular season.

You draft Bennedict Mathurin
Zion returns

Well, you got find about 42 minutes just to make that work.

You want to bring in a nice big to run with Jonas, and Lance.

You cut out Graham... that 13 minutes
You cut the bench mob... thats 14 minutes
You cut out Hayes... that's another 13 minutes


We are at 40 minutes for Zion and a rookie

Then, we want to bring in a playoff caliber back-up 5 that can eat about 13-18 minutes. You gonna have to dig into other players minutes to get that done.

You take about 5 minutes off Jonas, because I honestly don't think he's at his best running 30+
You take 8 minutes from Lance because of Zion and how much small ball 5 he can run
Then, you shave off minutes from everyone else.

Graham, Kira, and Hayes just don't fit if you want to make the team better. Minutes are match-up dependent still... and what if your draft pick becomes a 25 minute essential player


We are gonna have to start moving the bottom of our roster sooner or later. We are a tax team too atm.

If Pelicans did that... That's a championship team for the next 2 or 3 years.

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i agree...temple, snell, graham, hayes, billy, kira, naji....somehow covert those 7 players into a mix of 3 solid players that can shoot, play defense and a rim protector with players on the bench that can come in when needed to contribute would be a solid team going deep into the playoffs....

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

i agree...temple, snell, graham, hayes, billy, kira, naji....somehow covert those 7 players into a mix of 3 solid players that can shoot, play defense and a rim protector with players on the bench that can come in when needed to contribute would be a solid team going deep into the playoffs....

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Pipedreamimg

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Originally Posted by AusPel

Pipedreamimg

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lol you got to have a dream...one day it may come true...

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Originally Posted by Dago75

Really? Quote where I said that as well.

Is that your thing? Just put words in the mouth of people who disagree with you?

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Originally Posted by Dago75

Except that isn't true at all. If we rolled out the same exact team last year, we aren't rolling out a 36-46 roster.

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What else you want me to do...;

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Are you just oblivious to how the NBA works?Are we gonna pretend and trust Zion to play 82 games + the playoffs? Are we gonna pretend other NBA teams won't get better by getting their stars back and adding talent? For all we know... A Super Team gets built overnight in the offseason.

I don't care if we go to WCF... You still have to improve the team in whatever way possible. Why are so you attached to bench guys that wouldn't even get minutes on other contender? Is Hayes, Kira, or Graham getting minutes on Championship squads. No. So, why you care so much about deadweight.

Tired of this Sunk cost Fallacy.

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There is a difference between a sunk cost and an investment. Sunk cost you dont expect to appreciate in value, so maybe Graham is a sunk cost. Kira and Jax are development players, valuable to have not just because of what they give you right now but also what they can give you on the coming years. Even championship teams have guys in this role.

Im definitely not opposed to adding another big guy if we can get a good one. But Zion, Jonas, Nance, Hayes is a pretty sweet front court rotation.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

There is a difference between a sunk cost and an investment. Sunk cost you dont expect to appreciate in value, so maybe Graham is a sunk cost. Kira and Jax are development players, valuable to have not just because of what they give you right now but also what they can give you on the coming years. Even championship teams have guys in this role.

Im definitely not opposed to adding another big guy if we can get a good one. But Zion, Jonas, Nance, Hayes is a pretty sweet front court rotation.

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Sunk Cost Fallacy is Time and/or Money.


That's only if we can find someone to improve the roster. There isn't many options.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Sunk Cost Fallacy is Time and/or Money.


That's only if we can find someone to improve the roster. There isn't many options.

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If you believe that Hayes and/or Kira aren't going to develop, that would make them a sunk cost. If you believe its an investment that hasnt matured yet, then its not a sunk cost at all. I think Hayes is gong to be a very good player before its all said and done. He has great size/length, impressive athleticism and fluid movement, and a natural shooting touch. He needs to develop his bball IQ, but that's the kind of thing you expect from an immature player. Its something he likely can improve upon. Time will tell.

As for the idea that we shouldn't run it back because of this year's record... obviously CJ and Zion weren't on the team when we got out to that horrible start. Jose wasn't a factor in the gameplan yet either. The team chemistry hadn't formed yet. What we are witnessing now, is a team that is just now hitting its stride. We can make improvements to the roster yes, but I also think this team is a legit contender with who we currently have. Our 9 man rotation looks like:

CJ
Ingram
Herb
Zion
Jonas

bench
Jose, Trey, Nance, Jax

It could always be better, but damn that's pretty good. A guy like Naji or Kira is acceptable when you start getting to the 10th and 11th spot on the roster.

Make changes around the edges all you want, but continuity is my goal for this offseason. We've had so much instability, I want to get some stability in place.

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Originally Posted by DarkHornet

Make changes around the edges all you want, but continuity is my goal for this offseason. We've had so much instability, I want to get some stability in place.

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Im with you! Don't want to move on from any of our core contributors

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

If you believe that Hayes and/or Kira aren't going to develop, that would make them a sunk cost. If you believe its an investment that hasnt matured yet, then its not a sunk cost at all. I think Hayes is gong to be a very good player before its all said and done. He has great size/length, impressive athleticism and fluid movement, and a natural shooting touch. He needs to develop his bball IQ, but that's the kind of thing you expect from an immature player. Its something he likely can improve upon. Time will tell.

As for the idea that we shouldn't run it back because of this year's record... obviously CJ and Zion weren't on the team when we got out to that horrible start. Jose wasn't a factor in the gameplan yet either. The team chemistry hadn't formed yet. What we are witnessing now, is a team that is just now hitting its stride. We can make improvements to the roster yes, but I also think this team is a legit contender with who we currently have. Our 9 man rotation looks like:

CJ
Ingram
Herb
Zion
Jonas

bench
Jose, Trey, Nance, Jax

It could always be better, but damn that's pretty good. A guy like Naji or Kira is acceptable when you start getting to the 10th and 11th spot on the roster.

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hoping trey can take the next step in his development next season and getting a shooter will be just right but i still want a rim protector on the bench for certain matchups.....