This thread is going off the rails quick and I find it hilarious. Please.....carry on!
Printable View
This thread is going off the rails quick and I find it hilarious. Please.....carry on!
Target Brogdon pls Griff
Damn it. I’m still not over Jayson Tatum.
I don't think it's being a prisoner of the moment. He's been on a clear upward trajectory as a two way star for years, and despite having a rough patch this season after he came back from COVID (he takes an inhaler now, he says) he's still ranked as a top 30 player in most impact metrics.
Ridiculously talented player with still room to grow. He turned 23 only 2 months ago.
Oh no. I still think Tatum is better than Ingram. But I didn't say much about him until he dropped, what, 50?
This thread has gone off the rails, but we haven’t had our Kwame Brown moment yet.
Btw, Kwame has a great singing voice.
I really can't be upset about not getting Tatum... Celtics Gm is so up his own ****** that he doesn't understand fair value or much desire to winning a championship. He cares about winning trades outright. Which is weird. We weren't getting him. Celtics could of easily gotten a chip too with that core of AD, Walker, Brown, Hayward, and Smart.
If I had the choice between Ingram, Ball, Hart and 5 Picks vs. Tatum, Picks, and Piece of mind that I never got to see Ball in a Pelicans Uniform. I run to the fax machine to accept that trade.
Ainge is very interesting because on the one hand, he's built a team that hasn't missed the playoffs in years, has had conference finals trips, young talent, veteran all-stars, etc, it's all good.
But on the other hand, he's also an example of exactly what you don't want to do in a trade. He had all the assets in the world at one point, he was in the best position in the league from an assets perspective, but he was always waiting for that perfect trade where they got a championship for free (or at least minimum cost). That's an understandable desire but it just doesn't work like that.
He passed up on AD, passed on PG13, passed on Kawhi, passed on Jimmy Butler, and arguably passed on Harden as well, all players they could conceivably have gone after, and all players that would have been more helpful to them becoming actual, legitimate title contenders than someone like Tristan Thompson, Aaron Nesmith, Romeo Langford, or even Kemba Walker, which is the talent pool they've actually ended up with.
Of course Tatum and Brown are hits, and Smart is a really nice additional piece. But imagine if instead of Walker/Brown/Tatum, their core was Kawhi/Brown/Tatum, or Butler/Brown/Tatum, assuming they had cashed in on all the assets including some of their own picks?
A lesson for all GMs: don't be stupid and reckless, but don't be afraid to pull the trigger for a sure fire superstar. Talent wins.
Davis was never going to commit to Boston, so I think Tatum was always pie-in-the-sky. But more interesting and more realistic was the possibility of Holiday going to Boston in exchange for Jaylen Brown in the 2019 offseason...
Kawhi didn't commit to Toronto, but they won a championship. Isn't the point of all of this is to win chips? Ainge just thinks he knows better, but if he isn't bending teams over with bad trades. He is really a one note GM that hasn't gotten to one finals. It's just weird.
Yeah, it's kinda this situation. Kawhi left, every Toronto fan knew that was the likely outcome, but I've never seen or spoken to one Toronto fan who regrets the trade. They all acknowledge that it was worth it.
Ainge doesn't do that. He doesn't do trades unless they are perfect for him, and as time's gone by GMs are making fewer and fewer of these mistakes for him to capitalise on.
The problem for Ainge was that if he traded Tatum for Davis with no commitment from AD, a year later he winds up without Tatum, Davis or Kyrie. That was a no go all the way. If Kyrie re-ups, maybe he pulls the trigger without a commitment from Davis.
Sure, but Tatum was almost certainly never on the table.
The most commonly discussed trade at the time was centred around Brown and picks, with potentially Smart included.
Kyrie+Tatum+AD+Horford (who was still there and still good at the time) would have been a championship level team that year.
Of course, Kyrie was always likely to leave so that's a critique worth keeping in mind for the AD deal, but that doesn't justify Ainge passing up on Kawhi, Butler, PG13, Harden, etc.
There's always a justification for why he might have passed on any individual player. But that's the thing: there is always a risk when making this kind of trade. Superstars cost a lot of assets. But nothing will increase your championship odds in one move like adding a top 15 player to your roster.
Toronto traded their all-time leading scorer, their leader in all-time games player, who was a 4x allstar with them and who was only 28 years old in the Kawhi deal. If Kawhi had walked and they didn't win the chip, they would have lost him for nothing, especially cause Green left as well. That was a big risk, but it paid off and nobody regrets it.
If you want to win a chip you have to be willing to take risks. Sure, calculate the risks and don't put every egg into every basket, but when you're sat there asking whether you should pull the trigger and move a top 50 player for a top 15 player, the answer is almost always yes.
I'm just imagining the reactions Griff would get if he passed up on the deals that Ainge has.
If Griff had a deal ready to move Ingram, Hart in a S&T, and 4 firsts for Luka Doncic and then just decided ''nah''.
Or if he had something set up with a S&T for Lonzo, including NAW and Adams perhaps, plus 3 firsts for Jokic and just decided he wasn't interested.
Or if Lillard asked out and Griff had a deal on the table to send Portland 4 firsts and Ingram but decided not to bother.
We'd be ready to string him up.
Let's be real and truly not be prisoners of the moment. If we're talking Luka, Dallas could probably land any player not in the legit top 10, 1st team All-NBA category. Ainge would probably trade Tatum for Luka straight up after how this year has went. They are NOT supposed be .500 in the east, fighting in the play-in, likely about to get swept by the Nets. Boston doesn't roll that way.
There are lots of questions if the Tatum/Brown duo can work long-term. Not enough playmaking between them and constant cries about iso ball. Throw in Kemba, and it's why Ainge has been spouting off about "changes coming" recently. Luka/Brown would seem like a match made in heaven. But again, we are talking about a legit top 5 player in the league in Luka.
I think it is reasonable to ask if Van Gundy is the man. This guy came in with defense as his middle name and his team finished at the bottom. He talked it all year and yet this team continue to turn the ball over and play poor defense. Somebody didn't get the message, and it was not just the favorite goats like Beldsoe. On the surface I saw a group of young players playing hard but still not responding to their coach. There just seemed to be a disconnect. Given the youth of the team you expect mental breakdowns. But if you are ownership your worse nightmare is starting, and that is giving Zion a reason to want out.
On paper this team should not be home during the playoffs or play-in. There is a ton of talent. But the words on paper have to come to life and all that potential just didn't happen. It was so hard to watch this team at times. Less than entertaining. I am ok with that if there is winning. At least at one time in the year New Orleans led the league in scoring and was dead last in defense. That makes for fun and stress in the same game. it was just hard to watch when the team fell apart at critical times.
What separates this situation with the Knicks? I'm tired of this "no training camp, a pandemic" excuse. 29 other teams went through the same thing. Thibs and SVG came in with a similar situation expressing defensive focus. Both had a young team, barely any training camp, and one greatly exceeded expectations and players bought in ranking#1 in defense the other team has its two best players throwing subliminal shots at not being a fan of the coach with some of the worst defense in the league.
.
Thats who Griff is. Optimists project the best possible outcomes and then when they dont happen they write them off as a fluke or some extreme circumstance that they were disadvantaged by
Funnily enough, our defense over the second half of the season was actually far better, well inside the top half of the league.
A lot of that came with Lonzo, Adams, and Hart missing a lot of time, and a lot of it also came against terrible teams, but it's still worth mentioning. I don't think Jax's improvements were a non-factor, and our defensive scheme changed a ton of times.
And also, this has to be repeated (again, for some reason): Thibs had a bunch of vets on this Knicks team that he has coached before at multiple stops. Plus, I do think the Knicks flat out have a more defensively talented roster than we do. I don't buy Bledsoe as a great defender, particularly not when he's not motivated, and Lonzo disappointed. We've all been over the issues with Ingram and Zion defensively this year. Adams was fine but not a needle mover.
Meanwhile, Barrett put in some good defensive improvement this year, Mitchell Robinson was very good until he got injured, Nerlens Noel has always been a solid rim protector and he had his career best season this year, and Reggie Bullock is solid.
That's not to excuse our defense, it definitely still should have been way better than it was for the majority of the year, but it's not like the Knicks have a defensively null roster or like nobody on the team had any knowledge of Thibs and his systems. The only player on the Pelicans who had ever played with SVG before was Redick and he was old, bad defensively anyway, and got traded.
Antonio Daniels mentioned something along these lines when I had a conversation with him on Twitter. You are both in agreement that the majority of Thibs’ success can be attributed to him bringing in his guys at every one of his stops. AD also mentioned that they buy into Thibs’ philosophy because they have fought in the trenches with him in the postseason. He’s proven himself to them even though his tenures have ended with him getting fired.
Its been one year. And in Griff's mind, it was already starting to turn around before injuries took the play in away from them.
Again, you guys are forgetting Griff's goals when hiring SVG. It wasnt to win as many games as possible. It was to lay the groundwork and teach the young guys fundamentals and hold them accountable. Which SVG is doing and will do more this offseason. SVG is a stepping stone coach. He is the guy who calls out their BS, makes them earn minutes and touches, has film sessions with the top guys on the regular and points out their mistakes. Then, when those guys have evolved and dont need someone to do that because they do it to themselves and their teammates, SVG is gone and a top tactician is in
MM has mentioned numerous times that SVG will probably coach through the duration of his contract. He won’t be extended. I think some fans are nervous that he may burn bridges with our star players and that’s understandable. But we’ll just have to wait and see if this even comes to fruition. This will be the first full normal offseason for SVG. He at least deserves some time to fully implement his system like previous Pels coaches.
That may have been his plan when he hired him. However, Griff seems to be questioning his own timeline. He seems to regret the Adams trade when he talks about putting the team in a bad position to improve being so close to the tax after the offseason moves. He also seems to question his own plan with regards to shooting and how that needs to get fixed soon. Could his time table be accelerating?
We arent getting Tatum. And would I do Ingram for Brown? In an instant, but Boston wouldnt.
I dont think Ingram is going anywhere any time soon, but I think by February of 2023 Griff will be considering it heavily. And at that point it will just come down to what guys are available. Hard to predict. I wouldnt have predicted 18 months before the Spurs traded him that Kawhi would be available. And who knows - maybe SVG breaks through to Ingram and Griff gives him a little more space and he becomes more efficient offensively and better defensively. I just am not betting on it
Before this goes off the rails, as happens often here. Put this table together for folks to get their senses back.
Keep in mind Ingram put up these relative offensive numbers while playing on arguably the least experienced and least talented roster of anyone in this group.
Attachment 6575
Mr real information.... Duncan and Hollinger talked on todays pod about how there is a lot of talk around the league about Zion being unhappy
But I am sure they arent credible either because they were wrong at some point in the past. Or the people in the league are all just saying it as a conspiracy to get Zion out.
I already know you will find ways to dismiss them. And then the next person who spills what many of us know. And the next guy. To which i keep asking: What is your criteria? Does it have to come direct from.Zions mouth or its a lie? Genuinely want you to answer that clearly and succinctly, but I know you wont
Offensively I think in a couple years he can be as good as anyone in the league, it’s his defense which is starting to bother me.
1. Maybe he can get better
2. Maybe we can try him at SG and bring in a SF
3. It was hard to hide him on D this year because Lonzo was usually guarding the other teams PG and Bledsoe wasn’t gonna guard the SF so if we brought in a good wing defender it would be easier to hide him on D.
The faultiness of the logic is again, as I've said before, an attack on Zion's character.
He just finished what was essentially his 1st year in this league. He has massive craters in his game, especially on defense, he needs to address and get better at. He knows this. Who is this 20 year old to be sulking around mad at an entire organization like he's some proven 7 year vet?
Again, I seriously doubt he is doing ANY of this in the first place. It's illogical. It's attacks his character.
Secondly, I'd need the Duncan (who is this??) and Hollinger's transcript or the video to see the context of what they said.
Lastly, let's say any of this nonsense is true. What does 20 year old Zion, sulking today, have to do with where this team might be by the time he can start to demand his way out YEARS from now? What kind of crystal ball is that?
This is a franchise with multiple draft picks, the full MLE, BAE and about $4 mil in trade exception money at their disposal to keep improving this roster. The only long-term contract on the books is Ingram. Surely Zion is smart enough to know this is far from a finished product.
Either we believe this nonsense and therefore believe Zion is this entitled, bratty little child. Or dismiss it for what it is. But rumorville will always have a fanclub.
You call it nonsense multiple times...before examining. Do you see how your bias wont allow you to access truth? You cant start with a viewpoint and then go.listen to the pod. Your reasoning will aim in the direction that you want to conclude.
And thats fine for you to be a fan and have bias...i wont stop you. But dont call those of us liars who want to discuss the gray and dont fool ourselves into believing all is great
You have one person posting rumors that barely have a smidge of truth to them, which is what actual fans do. Especially on fan forums. Rumorville/TMZ central.
Then the other person trying to keep things in the very boring world of reality, is being called a "fan" by this very "fan acting" person.
Hilarious.
Per usual....you are the hero in your own mind. I tried to be civil and ask a.direct question. - giving you a chance to lay out a criteria. You chose, per usual to avoid it. So i will stop. I will just ignore you and i suggest everyone else should as well
Sam Amick hinting at issues too....but he probably isnt credible either. Nobody is according to Mr Lucky
At the end of the day, this is a make or break offseason for Griffin. Let’s focus there.
I'm saying some people are really good at stretching the truth, making sure the "right" people hear about it. https://t.co/0h41gkY0ie
— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) May 20, 2021