21st February - New Orleans Pelicans @ Portland Trailblazers - 23-32

Jrue

Easiest schedule. Better not lose

And 4 turnovers from Zo as well.. smh

Awful turnover from Lonzo there, what the hell was that? Jeez

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

It's a big issue for sure. The guys who run bball index were posting about Ingram's defense the other day and man... some of his defensive metrics are just so bad. You've got to imagine that his tendency to foul is part of that.

---

Yea I won't be defending his defense, I hate it..

Not this Sunday but next Sunday Potato Chip returns to the SKC

Alvin seems to coach better with glasses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nichols

Yea I won't be defending his defense, I hate it..

---

Here's the tweet I was talking about just for reference (obviously not trying to convince you or anything, you already said you agree, just wanted to clarify my own point).

If you’re curious about a few other measures of Ingram’s defense:

- His deterrence (via Q-RAD): below avg
- His defensive talent rating: below avg
- His estimated D position based on matchup data: 3.0 (from 1-5 being PG-C)
- 80% of time not guarding top 1/2 options for opponents https://t.co/UjiEGyhbnu

— Cranjis McBasketball (@Tim_NBA) February 20, 2020

I get that we were up and the game wasn't in question but I gotta say, I am surprised we just straight up sat Zion for the final 5 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Here's the tweet I was talking about just for reference (obviously not trying to convince you or anything, you already said you agree, just wanted to clarify my own point).

If you’re curious about a few other measures of Ingram’s defense:

- His deterrence (via Q-RAD): below avg
- His defensive talent rating: below avg
- His estimated D position based on matchup data: 3.0 (from 1-5 being PG-C)
- 80% of time not guarding top 1/2 options for opponents https://t.co/UjiEGyhbnu

— Cranjis McBasketball (@Tim_NBA) February 20, 2020

---

He's getting a max regardless, but based on what I've seen of him while he was with the Lakers, he at least played well on ball. Off ball he's never been good.

I see this as a coaching issue partly. He's way too far off of his man in help position. So far off at times that he actually loses his man and ends up guarding no one. If I'm his coach I fix this.

Final Game Stats
Game won 128-115

Zion: 25 points, 4 rebounds, 3 assists. 10/17 shooting (58.8%). 0 turnovers, 1 foul
Ingram: 16 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists. 5/8 shooting (62.5%), 3/4 from 3. 4 turnovers, 4 fouls
Jrue: 20 points, 2 rebounds, 9 assists, 4 steals. 5/10 shooting (50%), 4/6 from 3. 4 turnovers, 4 fouls
Favors: 8 points, 12 rebounds, 1 assist. 4/8 shooting. 0 turnovers, 2 fouls.
Lonzo: 15 points, 5 rebounds, 7 assists. 6/11 shooting (54.5%), 3/5 from 3. 4 turnovers, 1 foul.

Bench

Redick: 9/1/2 on 4/9 shooting. 25% from 3.
Hart: 13 points, 12 rebounds, 2 assists. 4/4 from the field. 2 fouls, 2 turnovers.
Melli: 13/5/2 on 5/11 shooting. Was 3/8 from 3. 1 turnover, 4 fouls.
Hayes: 4 points 1 rebound on 1/2 shooting in 6 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nichols

He's getting a max regardless, but based on what I've seen of him while he was with the Lakers, he at least played well on ball. Off ball he's never been good.

I see this is a coaching issue partly. He's way too far off of his man in help position. So far off at times that he actually loses his man and ends up guarding no one. If I'm his coach I fix this.

---

Sure, I wasn't talking about the contract part. Just the numbers about the defense.

Some of it is coaching, but some of it is also just recognition. He doesn't have naturally great defensive feel, and his body type is not great for defense anyway; long legs, relatively heavy feet, fairly high centre of mass, and not much core strength means he's easily moved, can't navigate screens efficiently, and has a high balance that's easy to tip.

He can improve for sure, but I have real doubts that he's ever a ''great'' defender, for those reasons.

And the 3 games are all under 30 minutes

— Ben Alterman (@ben_alterman) February 22, 2020

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I get that we were up and the game wasn't in question but I gotta say, I am surprised we just straight up sat Zion for the final 5 minutes.

---

He played 29+ minutes. His fourth quarter was handled properly...if needed, he could have been re-inserted. SMH

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

He played 29+ minutes. His fourth quarter was handled properly...if needed, he could have been re-inserted. SMH

---

I didn't say it was a bad thing :hihi: just surprised me.

In 4 games against the Pels this year, CJ McCollum (4 games) and Damian Lillard (2 games) went a combined 47-of-120 from the field (39.1%) and 11-of-50 (22%) from deep.

Dame was 0/14 from 3 in his two games.

— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) February 22, 2020

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Sure, I wasn't talking about the contract part. Just the numbers about the defense.

Some of it is coaching, but some of it is also just recognition. He doesn't have naturally great defensive feel, and his body type is not great for defense anyway; long legs, relatively heavy feet, fairly high centre of mass, and not much core strength means he's easily moved, can't navigate screens efficiently, and has a high balance that's easy to tip.

He can improve for sure, but I have real doubts that he's ever a ''great'' defender, for those reasons.

---

Valid critiques.. He's shown flashes of being an above average defender on perimeter players. With that being said, he has trouble fighting through picks. He can at least be solid if coached correctly. Not sure if Gentry is the guy to develop that aspect of his game though.

The #Pelicans sweep the season series against Portland for just the second time in franchise history, and the first time since 2003-04, when New Orleans was a member of the Eastern Conference (2-0). #WontBowDown

— Pelicans PR (@PelicansPR) February 22, 2020

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Here's the tweet I was talking about just for reference (obviously not trying to convince you or anything, you already said you agree, just wanted to clarify my own point).

If you’re curious about a few other measures of Ingram’s defense:

- His deterrence (via Q-RAD): below avg
- His defensive talent rating: below avg
- His estimated D position based on matchup data: 3.0 (from 1-5 being PG-C)
- 80% of time not guarding top 1/2 options for opponents https://t.co/UjiEGyhbnu

— Cranjis McBasketball (@Tim_NBA) February 20, 2020

---

With his wingspan he should be getting a ton of blocks and steals. I don't get it.

It's like Carmelo Anthony of 2013-2014.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nichols

Valid critiques.. He's shown flashes of being an above average defender on perimeter players. With that being said, he has trouble fighting through picks. He can at least be solid if coached correctly. Not sure if Gentry is the guy to develop that aspect of his game though.

---

I think he has a lot of his best perimeter success against smaller guys, where he can just use his length to compensate for some of the foot-speed issues by kind of just enveloping the area of the ball-handler.

Again though, that's on-ball stuff, as you say, where he's generally a bit better than off-ball. And it's also against smaller guys, where his biggest issues come against guys who are also forwards.

I thought Ingram was known in LA for playing good defense when asked against top offensive guards/forwards. Somebody on here posted about how he shut down some of the best when he guarded them. Is it possible that maybe besides his weight, it is a motivation issue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sleeper

I thought Ingram was known in LA for playing good defense when asked against top offensive guards/forwards. Somebody on here posted about how he shut down some of the best when he guarded them. Is it possible that maybe besides his weight, it is a motivation issue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

---

Yea I posted those numbers.. He locked up PG, Kyrie, and a few other perimeter scorers. It's why I'm puzzled as to why he's not even playing good on-ball defense this season. Lakers would put him on the best perimeter player and he'd do a good job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

I think he has a lot of his best perimeter success against smaller guys, where he can just use his length to compensate for some of the foot-speed issues by kind of just enveloping the area of the ball-handler.

Again though, that's on-ball stuff, as you say, where he's generally a bit better than off-ball. And it's also against smaller guys, where his biggest issues come against guys who are also forwards.

---

He's just not strong enough yet to guard physical players. I don't think he'll ever be strong enough to guard 4's, and physical 3's on the block. But I've seen enough to not worry about him defending perimeter players. Coaches need to work with him on the off-ball stuff. It really sucks. It's on them to fix that.

Jrue played close to a perfect game, something about Portland with Jrue.

Lonzo played well, he really is becoming the perfect point guard for Gentry’s offense. I still wish he’d look to score a little more on his drives, there are times he flies past the defense but gives up a layup to pitch it back outside. I like the fact that he’s a pass first guard but if he was a bigger scoring threat I would think he’s collapse the defense even more.

Zion didn’t look as bouncy today, but before you know it, he almost effortlessly scored 25. You would like more than 4 rebounds from him though. I’m starting to think he’s less like Barkley and more like Dominique on steroids.

Frustating game for Ingram. Started out well, but stupid fouls killed his rythm.

How do you not love Josh Hart, every team needs a guy like that.

Advanced Stats for Tonight
As always, 15 minute minimum

Best TS%: Josh Hart, 90.3%
Worst TS%: Derrick Favors, 47.4%
Highest REB%: Derrick Favors, 21.8%
Highest AST%: Jrue Holiday, 36%

Highest Net Rating: Derrick Favors, +31.6
Lowest Net Rating: Jrue Holiday +1.5

Most Deflections: Jrue Holiday, 4
Most Screen Assists: Derrick Favors, 4
Most 2pt Contests: Nicolo Melli, 7
Most 3pt Contests: Lonzo Ball, 6
Most Boxouts: Nicolo Melli, 4. Zion and Favors both had 3.

Great Win guys!

Jrue knew his role and played it well. Melli and Hart were solid off the bench. Everyone picked up the slack when our best scorer was down in the second half. 35 assists! Not only that but they were really fun to watch!

This was a game they should use as momentum to try and match every night forward.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We are now 7-5 since Zion debuted.

Have gone 4-1 in our last 5 games, including victories on the road in Indiana and Portland.

Two nights ago, we were 5.5 games behind the 8th seed. After tonight, we are 4 games behind; 1.5 games gained in one night, due to us winning and Memphis losing.

Zion now has 246 points on 93/161 shooting; that's 22.4 points per game on 57.7%FG.

246 points on 161 shots is equivalent to 1.53 points per shot. Other stars this season:

James Harden: 1829 points on 1199 shots: 1.53 points per shot
Lebron James: 1274 on 998 shots: 1.28 points per shot
Anthony Davis: 1225 points on 825 shots: 1.48 points per shot
Giannis: 1471 points on 986 shots: 1.49 points per shot
Damian Lillard:1594 points on 1102 shots: 1.45 points per shot
Luka Doncic: 1271 points on 898 shots: 1.42 points per shot

Now that's pretty impressive, especially when you consider that Zion doesn't shoot 3s all that much, and is a mediocre FT shooter. That tells you the efficiency of these buckets at the rim. Obviously small sample size: he's taken less than 1/5th of the shots of these guys, sometimes even less than that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

We are now 7-5 since Zion debuted.

Have gone 4-1 in our last 5 games, including victories on the road in Indiana and Portland.

Two nights ago, we were 5.5 games behind the 8th seed. After tonight, we are 4 games behind; 1.5 games gained in one night, due to us winning and Memphis losing.

Zion now has 246 points on 93/161 shooting; that's 22.4 points per game on 57.7%FG.

246 points on 161 shots is equivalent to 1.53 points per shot. Other stars this season:

James Harden: 1829 points on 1199 shots: 1.53 points per shot
Lebron James: 1274 on 998 shots: 1.28 points per shot
Anthony Davis: 1225 points on 825 shots: 1.48 points per shot
Giannis: 1471 points on 986 shots: 1.49 points per shot
Damian Lillard:1594 points on 1102 shots: 1.45 points per shot
Luka Doncic: 1271 points on 898 shots: 1.42 points per shot

Now that's pretty impressive, especially when you consider that Zion doesn't shoot 3s all that much, and is a mediocre FT shooter. That tells you the efficiency of these buckets at the rim. Obviously small sample size: he's taken less than 1/5th of the shots of these guys, sometimes even less than that.

---

But where is Zion on the Baynes scale?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Here's the tweet I was talking about just for reference (obviously not trying to convince you or anything, you already said you agree, just wanted to clarify my own point).

If you’re curious about a few other measures of Ingram’s defense:

- His deterrence (via Q-RAD): below avg
- His defensive talent rating: below avg
- His estimated D position based on matchup data: 3.0 (from 1-5 being PG-C)
- 80% of time not guarding top 1/2 options for opponents https://t.co/UjiEGyhbnu

— Cranjis McBasketball (@Tim_NBA) February 20, 2020

---

Ingram was never a lock defender besides misleading bix scores. His lack of size, motor, and our team philosophy was never gonna bring out a better defensive player in him.

I'd be more worried if he hits 25 and still hasn't made that leap before calling him Weedplate Wiggins+

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taker597

before calling him Weedplate Wiggins+

---

:hihi:

That's why Tatum is better, he's being mentioned as an all defense candidate

Good game. Sure they didnt have Lillard but the refs definitely favored Portland tonight to make up for some of the loss.
Pels did what they needed to...despite Portland getting close a couple tines, it never felt like they truly threatened.
The great thing is that the Pels still have a lot of room to get better...likely more than amy other team.

Just your weekly PSA reminding the Ex-Laker Player Haters thay Brandon Ingram is only 22. Lol

The defense will improve.

The lengths we'll go to...eh...

No one said he was a lock down defender.. I said he was able to play exceptional on-ball perimeter defense on 1s, 2s, and 3s, while with the Lakers. And I strongly disagree, good coaching can help with lack luster off-ball defense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Just your weekly PSA reminding the Ex-Laker Player Haters thay Brandon Ingram is only 22. Lol

The defense will improve.

The lengths we'll go to...eh...

---

Right, they act like he's a finished product at 22..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nichols

No one said he was a lock down defender.. I said he was able to play exceptional on-ball perimeter defense on 1s, 2s, and 3s, while with the Lakers. And I strongly disagree, good coaching can help with lack luster off-ball defense.

---

Durant wasn't a great defender early in his career, yet he has become a good, sometimes great defender. I think BI's defensive trajectory will mimic Durant's. I haven't followed this entire thread, but when we mention BI's game last night, let's not overlook a couple of spectacular assists to Zion. If they are a sign of things to come, then watch out!!

I've said it before...it's hard not to love this team.

When there's no #Pelicans basketball until Friday �� pic.twitter.com/Mr9wteXOtE

— New Orleans Pelicans (@PelicansNBA) February 17, 2020

When Jrue plays more assertive like he did last night it shows up big time. He and Ingram had some excellent plays (I particularly remember the Ingram dish with his back to the basket to Zion). No reason why they can’t coexist IF Jrue can show a bit of consistency. Not really impressed with the Blazers at all this season like some are (they just aren’t a very good side atm), but we won convincingly again. We need to keep that momentum going. For the love of god don’t drop one to Golden State of all teams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luigi modelo

Durant wasn't a great defender early in his career, yet he has become a good, sometimes great defender. I think BI's defensive trajectory will mimic Durant's. I haven't followed this entire thread, but when we mention BI's game last night, let's not overlook a couple of spectacular assists to Zion. If they are a sign of things to come, then watch out!!

---

I honestly don't see how they're comparable. Durant ridiculous length, much better instinct off ball, and his ability to stick to defenders is way out of Ingram's ability, unfortunately.

Setting up way too high of expectations. His ceiling is just passable at the moment. Like he can get by if he has an off night passable, but more often than not. We sink if BI is having a really bad shooting night.

I really don't have any comparable player that can be indicative to his defensive ceiling at the moment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taker597

I honestly don't see how they're comparable. Durant ridiculous length, much better instinct off ball, and his ability to stick to defenders is way out of Ingram's ability, unfortunately.

Setting up way too high of expectations. His ceiling is just passable at the moment. Like he can get by if he has an off night passable, but more often than not. We sink if BI is having a really bad shooting night.

I really don't have any comparable player that can be indicative to his defensive ceiling at the moment.

---

They're not comparable. People like to compare them because they're both long and skinny and shoot well from the midrange.

You're right when you say Durant was far better defensively, and Durant was also a far bigger threat outside of the arc because unlike Ingram he was fully capable of creating his own shot off the dribble from 3.

Maybe Ingram gains that ability in time, perfectly possible, but as of right now he doesn't have it and Durant did from almost the moment he entered the league. The impact that ability has on an opposing defense can't be understated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AusPel

But where is Zion on the Baynes scale?

---

246 points for Zion, 2693 for Baynes; 0.0913 Baynes

Durant was not a good defender the first few years of his career

And, I wasn't comparing their offensive games

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

They're not comparable. People like to compare them because they're both long and skinny and shoot well from the midrange.

You're right when you say Durant was far better defensively, and Durant was also a far bigger threat outside of the arc because unlike Ingram he was fully capable of creating his own shot off the dribble from 3.

Maybe Ingram gains that ability in time, perfectly possible, but as of right now he doesn't have it and Durant did from almost the moment he entered the league. The impact that ability has on an opposing defense can't be understated.

---

OMG man STOP IT. You are doing the same crap you did all summer.

There is nothing about Ingram's game to suggest he cant do this or that. I told you over the summer his shot mechanics suggests he can and would become a very good 3 point shooter, yet you come with all the historical stats for skepticism.

One of Ingram's strength's is ball handling. At this point in his career he is ahead of Durant in that category. Again, there is NO REASON to believe he can't improve his off the dribble shot %. None whatsoever.

He is a long and willing defender. There is NO REASON to believe he wont get better in on or off ball defense. All the of mechanics, bbal iq, and physical tools--especially once he adds weight--are there.

Durant was not always very good at creating his own shot off the dribble either. MANY times early in his career any attempt at driving the lane or shaking his defender with the dribble resulted in a turnover or missed shot.

Just stop it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luckyman

OMG man STOP IT. You are doing the same crap you did all summer.

There is nothing about Ingram's game to suggest he cant do this or that. I told you over the summer his shot mechanics suggests he can and would become a very good 3 point shooter, yet you come with all the historical stats for skepticism.

One of Ingram's strength's is ball handling. At this point in his career he is ahead of Durant in that category. Again, there is NO REASON to believe he can't improve his off the dribble shot %. None whatsoever.

He is a long and willing defender. There is NO REASON to believe he wont get better in on or off ball defense. All the of mechanics, bbal iq, and physical tools--especially once he adds weight--are there.

Durant was not always very good at creating his own shot off the dribble either. MANY times early in his career any attempt at driving the lane or shaking his defender with the dribble resulted in a turnover or missed shot.

Just stop it.

---

Okay.

Please, if it distresses you so much to read someone disagreeing with you, just mute me. For the sake of your own blood pressure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by luckyman

OMG man STOP IT. You are doing the same crap you did all summer.

There is nothing about Ingram's game to suggest he cant do this or that. I told you over the summer his shot mechanics suggests he can and would become a very good 3 point shooter, yet you come with all the historical stats for skepticism.

One of Ingram's strength's is ball handling. At this point in his career he is ahead of Durant in that category. Again, there is NO REASON to believe he can't improve his off the dribble shot %. None whatsoever.

He is a long and willing defender. There is NO REASON to believe he wont get better in on or off ball defense. All the of mechanics, bbal iq, and physical tools--especially once he adds weight--are there.

Durant was not always very good at creating his own shot off the dribble either. MANY times early in his career any attempt at driving the lane or shaking his defender with the dribble resulted in a turnover or missed shot.

Just stop it.

---

For a guy who is totally enamored with an unproven JAX, he certainly sees very little upside from BI, huh? Each is still a pup...each has physical skills that astound...each is skinny as a rail...but one is accepted as an All Star while the other treads water...especially defensively. One is a major contributor on his team and the other has seen his playing time dwindle massively over the last six weeks as his team improves. He's certainly a curious read isn't he?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by As I See It

For a guy who is totally enamored with the totally unproven JAX, he certainly sees very little upside from BI, does he? Each is still a pup...each has physical skills that astound...each is skinny as a rail...but one is accepted as an star while the other treads water...especially defensively. One is a major contributor on his team and the other has seen his playing time dwindle massively over the last six weeks. He's certainly a curious read isn't he?

---

The concerns about BI defense are legitimate just like Zion allowing 80% as the primary rim protecter.

We don't focus on defense. So, it's easy to see where Gentry isn't gonna get him to that next level if we stick with this system.

Yet, Kevin Durant before his injury was playing close to elite defense and having an historic playoff run. He was the arguable Best Player in the world in the past two years.

I think any comparison between Durant and BI is delusional hype. Especially, this has been his only consistently good year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Okay.

Please, if it distresses you so much to read someone disagreeing with you, just mute me. For the sake of your own blood pressure.

---

You're going to have to start doing better than "mute me" anytime someone finds your commentary silly. You clearly have a bias and blind spot when it comes to Ingram.

I think it's great that other posters are providing some push back against the narrative you push in regards to Ingram. As long as it's done respectfully I hope it continues. I hope no one mutes you, we need to see what you say and provide unbiased rebuttals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nichols

You're going to have to start doing better than "mute me" anytime someone finds your commentary silly. You clearly have a bias and blind spot when it comes to Ingram.

I think it's great that other posters are providing some push back against the narrative you push in regards to Ingram. As long as it's done respectfully I hope it continues. I hope no one mutes you, we need to see what you say and provide unbiased rebuttals.

---

Comments like this are one of the reasons I like this forum so much :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taker597

The concerns about BI defense are legitimate just like Zion allowing 80% as the primary rim protecter.

We don't focus on defense. So, it's easy to see where Gentry isn't gonna get him to that next level if we stick with this system.

Yet, Kevin Durant before his injury was playing close to elite defense and having an historic playoff run. He was the arguable Best Player in the world in the past two years.

I think any comparison between Durant and BI is delusional hype. Especially, this has been his only consistently good year.

---

KD was 30 when he hurt himself, no one is comparing that KD to current day Ingram.