October 26th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Houston Rockets - 0-2

It's so annoying that every. single. year. this franchise has to start the season down 2,3,4 starters. Then go against teams that are fully healthy.

When does it end.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

It's so annoying that every. single. year. this franchise has to start the season down 2,3,4 starters. Then go against teams that are fully healthy.

When does it end.

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that's what annoys you? I'm annoyed that every year we seem to always get the short end of the stick from refs unless it's and even worse team like home court is supposed to mean something and yet ours doesn't mean ******** to the refs

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So, I come back to a game thread after a cool game, and there's squabbling. Normal.

Anyway, I didn't comment throughout the game cause I had friends over to watch it (rare for me, nobody cares about basketball in the UK so I'm usually solo) but I figured I'd come drop my thoughts after the game still.

One thing that I'm not gonna talk about a ton is the number of shots we made: we had 3 guys in the starting lineup combine for 13 threes, and all of them shot better than 41% from deep. That's probably not going to happen all the time, just based on general likelihood. Sometimes you make shots, and in other games, they will miss them.

But what I will talk about and what I'm extremely impressed by is the number of threes certains guys took. Ingram took 7! One of the things I've complained most about before when it comes to Ingram is that he's a fan of long-twos, and shoots very low volume threes. That was true his first few years. He's now taken 7 threes in two consecutive games: that's a first in his career, and it's a very very very good sign. If Gentry has really gotten in his ear and convinced him to legitimately change his shot profile, that's huge.

I mean, here's Ingram's shot chart from this game:

Ingram shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/FeOPTLkw5L

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

It's not a perfect shot chart (still too many midrangers and FT line jumpers which aren't optimal) but you'll notice there's no weird 20 footers or anything. And last game, he only shot 1 mid range attempt in total. So while he's not quite there yet, this is definitely a trend in the right direction. Love to see it from him. And oh yeah, his defense was good again this game: that's been something that hasn't surprised me (I knew he was a solid 1-on-1 defender) but it's been pleasant to see it more consistently, since in the past he's been a little hit-or-miss in that category.

Honestly, if this trend continues with regards to his shooting profiles and his defense, Ingram could be in line for Most Improved Player votes. I don't expect the gaudy scoring numbers to continue (like I said, sometimes you miss shots instead of hitting them all, no matter who you are) and we have two high volume scorers in Jrue and Zion waiting to come back who will obviously need their shots, but that's not the point. I said before the year started that I don't need Ingram to average 25ppg for him to show real improvement, I just need to see better impact play. And so far, we're seeing that. Which is great!

One thing I would criticise about this game is Lonzo again. He hit 44% of his threes tonight so it feels kind of petty to be picking up on this, but he had some more ill-advised threes. That's not the kind of thing I like to see from him, and his volume of drives is still unpleasantly low: he took 9 threes and only 4 shots within 2 point range, which isn't optimal. Obviously it's not the end of the world, and if it was only one game I wouldn't even mention it, but it's kind of looking like a trend and that's not great. Still, like I said, he hit the threes tonight so it's kind of a moot point.

Hart has looked really good again for the third game in a row. He's really surprised me with his efficacy: he scored 23 tonight, and obviously that's unusual because he won't normally get 17 shots in most games, but still, he was efficient with them and look at the shot chart!

Josh Hart shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/CmRWSyOQdF

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

Now that is beautiful. Everything at the rim or behind the arc. You love to see it.

With regards to other players, Frank was a little cold but that's fine, NAW is still struggling to find his shot which isn't great but isn't the end of the world for a rookie 3 games in. Melli was good, Favors barely played. Kenrich did really cool Kenrich things as always.

Good game. Totally don't mind the loss, this game had a lot of good signs in it with regards to trends and habits, which is what you wanna see. When you're missing your two best players, fighting this close of a game is totally fine with me even if you lose.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Was really encouraged by what I saw, and have seen. This team can compete with anyone when healthy..

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I was mocked for wanting this trade but we absolutely hit it out the park! Ingram is going to prove he alone was worthy of a trade for AD when it’s all said and done but to get Lonzo, Hart, all of those 1st and pick swaps is just insane. Not only that but we landed Zion/Hayes/NAW in the same draft!? This team is going to be very dangerous but people need to trust the process because it’s going to take a little time. With Zion this team is 3-0 imo no question. I just don’t know how teams are going to defend Zion and Ingram on the wings.

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Originally Posted by SonOfNOLA

This game will come down to free throw attempts. We won’t stop Harden and Westbrook from getting to the line, but this game won’t be close if we can’t come close to matching their attempts.

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Crazy that this was exactly the reason why Houston won a close game. Pels 16 attempts vs Houston’s 30 attempts, 22 of them coming from Harden and Westbrook evenly. A lot of them coming from Harden just flailing his arms up looking for the refs attention. It’s hard to win when the Pels are in a hole with the refs favoritism before the game even start, and Ingram/Ball/Hart not drawing fouls at the basket .

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

So, I come back to a game thread after a cool game, and there's squabbling. Normal.

Anyway, I didn't comment throughout the game cause I had friends over to watch it (rare for me, nobody cares about basketball in the UK so I'm usually solo) but I figured I'd come drop my thoughts after the game still.

One thing that I'm not gonna talk about a ton is the number of shots we made: we had 3 guys in the starting lineup combine for 13 threes, and all of them shot better than 41% from deep. That's probably not going to happen all the time, just based on general likelihood. Sometimes you make shots, and in other games, they will miss them.

But what I will talk about and what I'm extremely impressed by is the number of threes certains guys took. Ingram took 7! One of the things I've complained most about before when it comes to Ingram is that he's a fan of long-twos, and shoots very low volume threes. That was true his first few years. He's now taken 7 threes in two consecutive games: that's a first in his career, and it's a very very very good sign. If Gentry has really gotten in his ear and convinced him to legitimately change his shot profile, that's huge.

I mean, here's Ingram's shot chart from this game:

Ingram shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/FeOPTLkw5L

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

It's not a perfect shot chart (still too many midrangers and FT line jumpers which aren't optimal) but you'll notice there's no weird 20 footers or anything. And last game, he only shot 1 mid range attempt in total. So while he's not quite there yet, this is definitely a trend in the right direction. Love to see it from him. And oh yeah, his defense was good again this game: that's been something that hasn't surprised me (I knew he was a solid 1-on-1 defender) but it's been pleasant to see it more consistently, since in the past he's been a little hit-or-miss in that category.

Honestly, if this trend continues with regards to his shooting profiles and his defense, Ingram could be in line for Most Improved Player votes. I don't expect the gaudy scoring numbers to continue (like I said, sometimes you miss shots instead of hitting them all, no matter who you are) and we have two high volume scorers in Jrue and Zion waiting to come back who will obviously need their shots, but that's not the point. I said before the year started that I don't need Ingram to average 25ppg for him to show real improvement, I just need to see better impact play. And so far, we're seeing that. Which is great!

One thing I would criticise about this game is Lonzo again. He hit 44% of his threes tonight so it feels kind of petty to be picking up on this, but he had some more ill-advised threes. That's not the kind of thing I like to see from him, and his volume of drives is still unpleasantly low: he took 9 threes and only 4 shots within 2 point range, which isn't optimal. Obviously it's not the end of the world, and if it was only one game I wouldn't even mention it, but it's kind of looking like a trend and that's not great. Still, like I said, he hit the threes tonight so it's kind of a moot point.

Hart has looked really good again for the third game in a row. He's really surprised me with his efficacy: he scored 23 tonight, and obviously that's unusual because he won't normally get 17 shots in most games, but still, he was efficient with them and look at the shot chart!

Josh Hart shot chart: 26th vs Rockets pic.twitter.com/CmRWSyOQdF

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

Now that is beautiful. Everything at the rim or behind the arc. You love to see it.

With regards to other players, Frank was a little cold but that's fine, NAW is still struggling to find his shot which isn't great but isn't the end of the world for a rookie 3 games in. Melli was good, Favors barely played. Kenrich did really cool Kenrich things as always.

Good game. Totally don't mind the loss, this game had a lot of good signs in it with regards to trends and habits, which is what you wanna see. When you're missing your two best players, fighting this close of a game is totally fine with me even if you lose.

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:thumbup: Thanks for the shot charts after the games..

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Originally Posted by Nichols

:thumbup: Thanks for the shot charts after the games..

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No problem, I really think looking at them can clarify a few things. Sometimes during the game you lose track of exactly what shots have been taken, and it can clear up some thoughts on shot-selection to see them all just laid out there.

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Originally Posted by GuardianAngel25

I was mocked for wanting this trade but we absolutely hit it out the park! Ingram is going to prove he alone was worthy of a trade for AD when it’s all said and done but to get Lonzo, Hart, all of those 1st and pick swaps is just insane. Not only that but we landed Zion/Hayes/NAW in the same draft!? This team is going to be very dangerous but people need to trust the process because it’s going to take a little time. With Zion this team is 3-0 imo no question. I just don’t know how teams are going to defend Zion and Ingram on the wings.

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Yea the thing is we don't have to wait to see what Zion is going to bring.. The guy hit the ground running, he's already a problem. And despite a not so great start, I'm still high on NAW, I expect him to be good by mid-season if he continues to get playing time.

Harden's and Westbrook's stats over-inflate their value

They're going to get smacked in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles more (which happens every year for these two frauds)

*They're great players....but MVP's?

LoL still you somehow try to throw shade on Ingram. Seriously pathetic. Lying as if he has never taken 3s like this when you have barely watched the guy at all during his career. Acting like his shot profile is anything different when that’s one of your consistent complaints but it’s only when he misses. Those mid rangers are only bad when he misses lol. If you actually watched the game like you said his bread and butter all night long was the mid range game not his 4 made 3pt shots. Guy was lights out in all facets but you just hope Gentry got in his ear about how terrible his shot selection use to be.. lol.. Every little compliment you gave was followed up by but when he was 15 he shot 34% from 3pt.. Please go find me one 18-21 year old that didn’t take some bad shots in their first year or 2.. Is he still the hot trash heap of garbage that is a ball stopper and analytically the worst? The shot charts are great but again they prove just about nothing had Ingram went 2-7 from 3pt and missed some mid rangers you would lose it.. good tool to hedge your bets though.

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots +/- 2-3 ft of FT line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add a pull up at that range to his game.

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Originally Posted by akhan786

Harden's and Westbrook's stats over-inflate their value

They're going to get smacked in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles more (which happens every year for these two frauds)

*They're great players....but MVP's?

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and that's the problem I have with this entire thing you call these barely fouls during the season but some how they don't count during the playoffs? tell me again how refs don't control games

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Originally Posted by akhan786

Harden's and Westbrook's stats over-inflate their value

They're going to get smacked in the playoffs when the refs swallow their whistles more (which happens every year for these two frauds)

*They're great players....but MVP's?

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Never been a fan of either, but Harden is the bigger fraud. He'd still be an above average player without the refs help, but I don't like players who's bread n butter is tricking the refs into making calls.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots around the Ft line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add it to his game.

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shots are good period I'm so sick of this at the basket or take a 3 crap guess what 2 points is more them none

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Originally Posted by kinglio21093

I think we'll compete, but ultimately lose.

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Hey looks like I was right.

Once again, very encouraged by the boys tonight. The guys from the AD trade absolutely KILLED IT. We just need to be better with stupid mistakes. Too many turnovers in the first half, and we got too 3 happy. Took wayyyyy too many 3s.

But outside of that, I LOVE what we have. Can you imagine once Zion gets back??? Oooooh weeee.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots +/- 2-3 ft of FT line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add a pull up at that range to his game.

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Yea its been an issue for Zo, the in between game. He knows it and is working on it.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

A Ft jumper is optimal. Especially for a guy like Ingram. The frowned upon shots are the ones out near the 3 point line where you only need to take two steps back to make it a 3.

I think this "only 3s and layups are good shots" trope is out of hand. Most coaches dont think like that.

Shots +/- 2-3 ft of FT line are still very good mid range shots. Lonzo needs to add a pull up at that range to his game.

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A FT jumper is only optimal if it's the optimal shot in a given situation. Probably 2 thirds of the time that Ingram takes a midrange jumper, he could get closer and take a shot at the rim, and he just refuses it. A shot at the rim is always better than a shot from 15 feet. So if you're turning down a shot at the rim because you'd rather take a 15 footer, that's not optimal.

Nobody has ever said that only 3s and layups are good shots. So... yeah. Midrange shots are totally fine in a bunch of situations. They just shouldn't be your priority: midrange shots should be fairly low down on your list of ''shots in order of priority''. If you've got the ball at 16 feet and there's only 4 seconds on the shot clock, sure, take a midranger.

Also, I just love how defensive some people get.

I make a post saying: ''wow, impressed by Ingram, he's shooting more threes than ever which is great, he's making a much better impact than before, love his consistency on defense, if he keeps this up he'll be a Most Improved candidate! Hope he keeps cutting out the unnecessary midrangers!''

And I immediately get like 3 people responding to me like ''WHAT?! THE MIDRANGERS ARE FINE! How dare you!''

:rolleyes:

I'm just gonna say it now:

If Zion's healthy, we're 3-0 at this point. I'm confident in that.

I fully 100% expected everything I am seeing from Ingram just not so consistent this soon after so much time off from basketball. Again he couldn’t even lift his right arm up with a basketball or do anything but watch TV for nearly 6 months and just recently came back! He also just turned 22 years old so my stance on him and what the rest who didn’t know much about him before is get use to this because we are just seeing the beginnings of his best basketball.

I was also fully 100% confident in Lonzo. My issue was his dad and our small organization on being able to handle the drama along with the pressure that comes with it. After seeing this is a complete non issue by also getting a good glimpse into Lonzos maturity by watching his TV show I’m all in. When he first came into the NBA he thought a Ceazar Salad with tons of ranch and a side of French fries was healthy. Now he has a private chef while doing many other things to maintain his health and be at peak performance. Where he was at in his life as well it couldn’t have went better for him then getting out of LA to a team like ours. Again we need to take his age into account and just how good he can become. He has an all around skill set to be a legit star PG as he continues working on his offensive game. Lonzo is showing he can become a very good 3pt shooter especially with more time as he just changed his shot. He needs to add a consistent pull up mid range as well while becoming more aggressive attacking the rim. These are areas he can very easily make huge strides in over the next few years with what we are already seeing. Also a big myth is Lonzo couldn’t shoot which was simply not true as in Ben Simmons case. Lonzo absolutely would light it up at UCLA and was being compared to Steph as he developed working on his form. The issue was we didn’t see any change in his form and now we have.

I see Ingram and Lonzo being 40%+ 3pt shooters next season and beyond if not this year. I also see them making drastic improvements at the FT line each getting to 75%+.. Call me crazy but I believe Ingram will become similar to Durant efficiently and that is from the FT line as well. I don’t know if he will ever get to 90% from FT but 80%+ is to be expected after this season. We got 2 studs in these 2. Hart is the real under rated one who will be a fan favorite. A legit 2 way SG/SF who can average 17+ ppg shooting 40%+ 3pt..

This talent right here developing into what I believe they all will be is a legit dynasty and that’s without hitting on a single draft pick. Not only is this group elite potentially they also compliment each other so well with their versatility and such different dynamic skill sets. We have an entire starting lineup of star caliber players who each play a different position being able to grow with the oldest of the group being 22 years old.

Generational SuperStar - Zion - PF
SuperStar Wing - Ingram - SF
AllStar Point Guard - Ball - PG
Star Combo Guard - NAW - SG
AllStar Center - Hayes - C
Hart/Frank/Okafor weren’t included as I believe they are all going to be huge role players going forward that every team needs to win. They are all 3 very selfless players who have winning in their DNA. Hart/Frank have legit 6th man award talent who could be very solid NBA starters.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

A FT jumper is only optimal if it's the optimal shot in a given situation. Probably 2 thirds of the time that Ingram takes a midrange jumper, he could get closer and take a shot at the rim, and he just refuses it. A shot at the rim is always better than a shot from 15 feet. So if you're turning down a shot at the rim because you'd rather take a 15 footer, that's not optimal.

Nobody has ever said that only 3s and layups are good shots. So... yeah. Midrange shots are totally fine in a bunch of situations. They just shouldn't be your priority: midrange shots should be fairly low down on your list of ''shots in order of priority''. If you've got the ball at 16 feet and there's only 4 seconds on the shot clock, sure, take a midranger.

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Yes plenty have said only 3s and layups are good shots in recent years. I have ears and eyes. And I dont see Ingram making midrange shots a "priority". When he's taken them he's being guarded with help waiting at the rim. Which is why it is a good shot to take. I have never seen him pull up for a midrange shot with open space near the rim. The midrange is something every player should have in their toolbox, and all the best wing players in the league take and make them.

Your take on midrange shots is just off. Imo.

I just hope we can hang in there with at least a .500 record until Zion gets back.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Yes plenty have said only 3s and layups are good shots in recent years. I have ears and eyes. And I dont see Ingram making midrange shots a "priority". When he's taken them he's being guarded with help waiting at the rim. Which is why it is a good shot to take. I have never seen him pull up for a midrange shot with open space near the rim. The midrange is something every player should have in their toolbox, and all the best wing players in the league take and make them.

Your take on midrange shots is just off. Imo.

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Okay, I'll clarify: ''nobody who actually knows what they're talking about has said only 3s and layups are good shots''. Basically all actual analysts think midrangers are fine, just very situational and rarely optimal. Seth Partnow, ex-head of analytics for the Bucks, has a good talk on this actually.

Yeah, I don't think we have the same view on what's open and what's guarded at all. You see my take on midrangers as off, cool. I see yours in the same way. Not worth arguing over.

Monty might beat the Clippers tonight

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Okay, I'll clarify: ''nobody who actually knows what they're talking about has said only 3s and layups are good shots''. Basically all actual analysts think midrangers are fine, just very situational and rarely optimal. Seth Partnow, ex-head of analytics for the Bucks, has a good talk on this actually.

Yeah, I don't think we have the same view on what's open and what's guarded at all. You see my take on midrangers as off, cool. I see yours in the same way. Not worth arguing over.

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Yeah. I dont see mid range jumpers as "very situational" or "rarely optimal" At ALL. It's a key part of any player's offensive repertoire. I wish Favors had it.

And Brandon Ingram is very good at it...thus his all-star like start to the season. Hope he keeps it up.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Yeah. I dont see mid range jumpers as "very situational" or "rarely optimal" At ALL. It's a key part of any player's offensive repertoire. I wish Favors had it.

And Brandon Ingram is very good at it...thus his all-star like start to the season. Hope he keeps it up.

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Yeah, hard disagree.

If you have the option to take an open three, an open 18 footer, and an open dunk, I think you'd be silly to take the midranger. The dunk is the easiest shot with the highest likelihood of providing points, and the open three has the highest potential return. A midrange shot blends the two: it provides only the points of the dunk, with the added difficulty of the distance. The worst of both worlds, in most cases.

And while Ingram has had a very good start to the season, I wouldn't attribute it to his mid range shooting whatsoever. His increased 3pt volume and %age, plus his consistent defense, has been the main driver of it.

so how many wins would we have if Zion was healthy and we had good Jrue? This team will click eventually and we are in for one hell of a ride.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Also, I just love how defensive some people get.

I make a post saying: ''wow, impressed by Ingram, he's shooting more threes than ever which is great, he's making a much better impact than before, love his consistency on defense, if he keeps this up he'll be a Most Improved candidate! Hope he keeps cutting out the unnecessary midrangers!''

And I immediately get like 3 people responding to me like ''WHAT?! THE MIDRANGERS ARE FINE! How dare you!''

:rolleyes:

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We need a way to bury the hatchets.

If we all lived here, a tailgate with lots of good food and camaraderie would end most of the feuds that were created from very dismal seasons. It seems most of the snapping is more about people taking shots at guys they have beef with as opposed to the actual content being argued.

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Originally Posted by AussieHornet

so how many wins would we have if Zion was healthy and we had good Jrue? This team will click eventually and we are in for one hell of a ride.

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3-0.

We've lost all three games on the margins, and have been generally out-rebounded and unable to consistently create offense at the time when things break down.

A healthy, mid-season Jrue is an elite finisher at the rim. A healthy Zion is also an elite finisher at the rim, even most so, and also a monster offensive rebounder.

We have both of those guys at their best, we're 3-0.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

3-0.

We've lost all three games on the margins, and have been generally out-rebounded and unable to consistently create offense at the time when things break down.

A healthy, mid-season Jrue is an elite finisher at the rim. A healthy Zion is also an elite finisher at the rim, even most so, and also a monster offensive rebounder.

We have both of those guys at their best, we're 3-0.

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Last year 4 - 0 turned into a disaster

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Last year 4 - 0 turned into a disaster

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Sure, but I'm not speculating on the season. I'm just answering the question about these first three games.

Minty still winning vs Clippers

time to find a new coach

so either me or everyone can't attack posts anymore and personally attacking someone is okay even though it's a bannable offense. so nice knowing you guys you're all pretty except for the new laker prick who you can't say anything too with out getting a warning

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Suns up by 9 now

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Yes plenty have said only 3s and layups are good shots in recent years. I have ears and eyes. And I dont see Ingram making midrange shots a "priority". When he's taken them he's being guarded with help waiting at the rim. Which is why it is a good shot to take. I have never seen him pull up for a midrange shot with open space near the rim. The midrange is something every player should have in their toolbox, and all the best wing players in the league take and make them.

Your take on midrange shots is just off. Imo.

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100% dead spot on!! One of the first suggestions for every basketball player by professional cosches is to work on this and make it dominant then the 3. All of the greats have the same deadly mid ranger as their bread and butter while they developed the 3pt later as some icing on the cake in their game. I can point to player after player after player and not just a bunch of great players but the ones who won at the highest levels outside of 1 Warriors team.. They then signed Durant to take this shot and help win 2 more. This is where analytics is not right as all GMs will tell you it’s just a tool plain and simple. Very rarely when Ingram is 1on1 in this pocket is it a bad shot. All the great players tell you a hand doesn’t matter when you know it can’t be blocked.

Minty keeps doing this with that talent he could be looking at coach of the year!

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah, hard disagree.

If you have the option to take an open three, an open 18 footer, and an open dunk, I think you'd be silly to take the midranger.

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This is a very silly way to put the argument. And many coaches would say the open mid range shot would be the second option on that list just from a percentage standpoint alone.

And I didnt say the midrange was the sole reason for his all star start. I said it's a major part of his game and thus, part of it. Without it he doesn't score 35 tonight nor look as good this year.

Anyway, carry on.

.

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Minty still winning vs Clippers

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Part of it is Minty. The other part is that Clippers team is a tad overrated. They've only made 7 threes tonight and being badly out rebounded. Two things I'd keep my eye on with them.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

This is a very silly way to put the argument. And many coaches would say the open mid range shot would be the second option on that list just from a percentage standpoint alone.

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Then those coaches would be silly, because the expected value on a midranger is not the same.

You have to shoot 50% from 2 to equal the points created by shooting 33.3% from 3.

Pretty much nobody shoots 50% from midrange. Ingram, as we have heard non-stop, is in the 89th percentile as a midrange shooter, and that only equates to 43%. A slightly-crap three point shooter taking a 3 has a higher expected point value than an Ingram midranger. The only midrange shooters who are efficient enough from there to justify taking it over an open 3 are Kawhi and Durant, who both shoot at or around that 50% mark.

Points per shot > raw percentage. In fact, points per shot is what True Shooting is based on.

Anyway, carry on.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Part of it is Minty. The other part is that Clippers team is a tad overrated. They've only made 7 threes tonight and being badly out rebounded. Two things I'd keep my eye on with them.

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Clippers overrated? Are you serious? Just wait till they get George back

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Then those coaches would be silly, because the expected value on a midranger is not the same.

You have to shoot 50% from 2 to equal the points created by shooting 33.3% from 3.

Pretty much nobody shoots 50% from midrange. Ingram, as we have heard non-stop, is in the 89th percentile as a midrange shooter, and that only equates to 43%. A slightly-crap three point shooter taking a 3 has a higher expected point value than an Ingram midranger. The only midrange shooters who are efficient enough from there to justify taking it over an open 3 are Kawhi and Durant, who both shoot at or around that 50% mark.

Points per shot > raw percentage. In fact, points per shot is what True Shooting is based on.

Anyway, carry on.

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That math is ignoring the fact that you have more opportunities at mid range shots than you do from 3.

Most teams take more mid range shots than 3. And obviously, make more mid range shots than 3. There is obviously more value in going 4/10 from mid range than 2/5 from 3. And very few teams (if any) have half of all their shots come from 3 point range.

The fact of the matter is if you want to be a a good to elite player, then you need to be able to create and make mid range shots. This is an argument to no one except some folks on the internet.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Part of it is Minty. The other part is that Clippers team is a tad overrated. They've only made 7 threes tonight and being badly out rebounded. Two things I'd keep my eye on with them.

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Yeah no way Clippers lose to Phoenix if Paul George was on the floor with Kawhi. But dominant teams won’t dominate every game in a long season, especially after LAC played hard in double digit wins against the Lakers and Warriors

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Clippers overrated? Are you serious? Just wait till they get George back

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Suns are doing this without Ayton.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Suns are doing this without Ayton.

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come on lol like ayton is anything special lol

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Originally Posted by bahmamamba

come on lol like ayton is anything special lol

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Good night internet

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Good night internet

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yes bc he's not just another good player and that's it lol you're right and everyone else is wrong lol

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Originally Posted by luckyman

This is an argument to no one except some folks on the internet.

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And NBA analytics departments :hihi:

Again, I will repeat: nobody with any kind of actual expertise is saying to never take any midrange shots ever. Especially not me. I'm not saying that. So this whole ''you need to be able to create and make mid range shots'' thing you're saying, as if I'm disagreeing, is kind of weird. I'm just saying that the midrange shot should never be the PRIORITY that you WORK FOR. It should be a tool you have to use when necessary, but if your game plan is ''I'm gonna get out there and hit 15 18 footers, it'll be great'' then you're thinking about the game wrong.

I just went back and looked at Harden's shot chart as well btw

Harden shot chart: 26th vs Pels pic.twitter.com/XKzWtEdviR

— Pelicanidae (@Pelicanidae1) October 27, 2019

Ouch.

Lots and lots and lots of X. Went 2 of 18 from 3. That's incredible and disgusting.