Top 10 Players (any position) for 2014-15

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09-01-2014, 06:59 PM
tyler

Even skip says he is not at the lvl that ppl are giving him
09-01-2014, 07:13 PM
UptownFuz504

Whereas I do not agree with Throne's assertion that Drummond is better than AD, there are holes in AD's game that stops me from thrusting AD in the top 3 in the league. 75% of AD's offense comes from fast breaks, rebounds, and alley oops. At the end of the game, I personally wouldn't give AD the ball to win us the game because his offensive skill set isn't at that level yet. I'd prefer to have AD under the bucket to try to rebound and get a put back. That's my critique on AD but ultimately I feel he'll be one of the best. Throne's opinion is his opinion and nobody should be upset that his opinion isn't the same as the majority.
09-01-2014, 07:39 PM
N.O.Bronco

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Personally, I think Da Throne has solid basketball knowledge, but he took a stand on this a long time ago and now instead of looking at the issue w/o bias, he looks for everything wrong with AD and everything right with others in order to try to get his hypothesis to hold up. Smart people do this all the time in all fields.

This sums up Da Throne IMO.

To Da Throne:

During my google-fu from the other day(which you said you challenged me to post so I am) it was very evident that you put yourself out there in the world of the internet claiming Davis was not going to be as good as advertised and as a consequence of being so wrong you continue to look for the negative in everything about Davis and the positives in the guys you projected to do well.

Without further ado here was my supporting evidence for my earlier claims.

Quote:

Davis will struggle at the next level. I have no idea why people think he will be a star. He's a less skilled/phyiscally weaker Anthony Randolph.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...5#post21694025

Here he is claiming no less then ten people will be more effective stars day one then Davis coming into the NBA:

Quote:

I think he is one of the riskier players in the draft because he ,unlike most of the guys that's lottery projections, can't be affective in the NBA as is. Robinson, Drummond, Barnes, Beal, T. Jones, Marshall, Lillard, Leonard, Zeller, and P. Jones all can be affective stars with their bodies as is the day of the draft. The only other lotto guys that need to transform their bodies at the next level are Sulliger(needs to lose weight) and Kidd-Gilchirst(needs to add weight). Losing weight pretty much always has a positive affect on a players game. However there's no way of telling how Davis' body will react to the 15-20lbs(miminal) he will need to add. Just looking at his frame it doesn't appear that he can add this weight while maintaining some of the traits that makes him a great shot blocker and these are just on his body and not his game

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...1#post21698221

Here he is showing his preference for Robinson, Kidd-Gilchrest and Beal over Davis in the draft:

Quote:

Quote:

The who is better than him?

IMO Robinson, Kidd-Gilchirst, Drummond, and Beal for sure.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=883

And here is a year later still trying to save face with his Robinson will be better then Davis predictions which plays to the notion that he will stick to his original hypothesis until there is no fathomable way he can maintain it any longer:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=225

Here he is saying that if Anthony Davis sustains his level of play(to which he exceeded it) he would consider building around Davis over Love. But showing DaThrones nature he clearly has re-neged on giving Davis any credit for his marvelous performance last season by ranking him much further down then Love:

Quote:

This you have to sustain some level of success for a length of time before I'm willing to clearly tie my wagon to a player. Davis has been great. This coming from someone who was a huge critic of his leaving UK. However we have no idea if he'll be able to handle the adjustments that teams will inevitably make to force him to do something he may struggle with.

For me right now their really no contest it's Love. If Davis does this all year then I think it becomes a much more reasonable discussion.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

This is the discussion that sums it up for me. He made an entire thread about his 2012 draft projections and listed Davis as the 7th best player. Then went on to make extremely ignorant assertions that you can see in his posts today that he still clings to in many ways:

Quote:

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Anthony Davis as the seventh best player in the draft is ridiculous. Davis will be a top 7 player in the NBA within the next 4-5 years.

Not even close. Davis is being drafted because he a smart hard working player that's one of the best athletes in the draft. However there are way too many holes in his skillsets. The one thing I think fans and even the league fails to realise are those holes in skills much like physical limitation can only be improved so much. If he gets stronger and keeps his athleticism he'll be a Serge Ibaka/Tyson Chandler type player. There's no chance he becomes a top 10 player in the league.

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I'm sorry but this is just wrong. He has Hakeem type upside. I'm not saying he will be that good, I'm just saying that your assertion that he'll never be in the top 10 players is ridiculous. He's the best big man to come out since Howard.

I think that's absurd, but it's a matter of opinions. I've never seen a guy that inefficient at creating his own offense at ever fascist of the game magically turn into a dominant scoring big. He'll have his defensive impact, but him getting to Howard's level on offense is the best case scenario. Sure he'll get stronger but will he be as explosive after probably not and that is the heart of his game.

Once again there are far too many gaps in his game skill wise that IMO can't be bridge. People are resting on him growing. He'll get better but top 10 is insane based on what I see when I break Davis down.

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Did you even watch him? He has a great mid-range jumper and his post moves will come along. He's only been playing center a few years. Kentucky already had established scorers but if he had wanted to Calipari could have run the offense through Davis. As it was he still scored 14 PPG on 62% shooting. Sure a lot of that was putbacks but he demonstrated some moves. It's not like he's Ben Wallace.

His mid range jumper is "ok", it is most certainly not "great". Outside of Terrence Jones and Doron Lamb Kentucky scorers aren't really that good.

Once again everybody is banking on him to improve. I don't see any major improvements ever happening. I'm aware he only been 6'10 for 2 years. But there's been other people who have pick up the sport late that were farther along as far as skills than Davis. Once again he's no Ben Wallace and he'll improve however to the likes of KG, Duncan, Kareem, or Hakeem is never going to happen. He'll most likely have a decent to good career, but he'll never be a franchise player IMO.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

And now after all of this he still says this yesterday:

Quote:

Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Yes there were some things that I undervalued in Davis' game mostly his touch around the basket. But much of my concerns from his college days are still present now. Davis has some ability and is a hard working high IQ player. Again I won't be as high on him until I see those concern with his game address.

To me it is as clear as day that Da Throne is the type of individual that has a difficult time admitting he was completely wrong. His most damning predictions have been blown out of the water. Offensive ceiling is Howard, he can't add weight without losing his explosiveness, has poor ball handling, won't improve offensively from where he was in college, will struggle to be anything more then a role player. On and on and on.

Instead of admitting he projected the draft poorly and he was wrong you see him making excuses to support his original hypothesis years afterwards. Even to the present day with guys like Davis. For guys he projected poorly, namely Davis, he is constantly skeptical about Davis adding moves to his repertoire but with guys like Robinson and Drummond he is/was constantly arguing to give them more time because they will develop(Just read through the Operation Sports thread to see more examples). For Davis he was and is what you see from here on out, and for every skill he does improve he counters with a negative(well if Davis gets bigger he won't be explosive) for others he projected better he sees them getting better. Player development only works on guys he originally saw as stars that haven't quite made that leap yet but for guys like Davis that he projected poorly he refuses to accept that they will improve. You constantly see that with his belief Drummond is just scratching the surface but Davis will never improve or add enough skills to raise him above his arbitrary line that makes you a franchise player.

To the point now where his confirmation bias and stubbornness is so strong that it has led to an irrational skepticism of Davis and an embracement of a number of silly hypotheticals and arguments based on selective framing of facts and information that ultimately is rooted in his predictions from years back not aligning with reality. And on the other hand he gives players failures and flaws a pass that he had strong positive predictions for. Yes he likes to throw out at times that he will admit he is wrong and has done so in the past but it is clear that he will tie his anchor to a sinking ship until it is completely sunk. So until there is literally no argument out there that Da Throne can make to knock Davis expect him to continue taking the side that Davis isn't what almost everyone else who watches basketball sees.

I don't mean to pile on Da Throne because I have defended him in other threads where he takes opinions against the consensus but in this instance it is such a regular occurrence that I felt it needed addressing.
09-01-2014, 07:46 PM
Kumar

Quote:

Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

75% of AD's offense comes from fast breaks, rebounds, and alley oops.

I no longer want any part of this debate but, 9% of AD's offense came in transition. 12.8% came from rebounds, and 4.6% of his shots were Alley oop layups and dunks.

He was isolated almost double the percentage of his plays than players like Blake Griffin, Tim Duncan, Kevin Love etc and he scored more PPP at a higher FG% and got fouled almost 20% of the time.
09-01-2014, 08:18 PM
UptownFuz504

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumar

I no longer want any part of this debate but, 9% of AD's offense came in transition. 12.8% came from rebounds, and 4.6% of his shots were Alley oop layups and dunks.

He was isolated almost double the percentage of his plays than players like Blake Griffin, Tim Duncan, Kevin Love etc and he scored more PPP at a higher FG% and got fouled almost 20% of the time.

I can't argue with your stats but I can only go by what I see. Davis with the ball in his hands is not as effective as he is when he is off the ball. What makes him so good IMO is that he is so crafty at scoring without the ball. Once he gets a go to move, he's going to be great. Once again, not arguing with your stats but if you watched the USA game against Turkey, a lot of his output came off of rebounding, fast breaks, and assisted buckets. His offensive game is progressing but IMO its not top 3.....yet.
09-01-2014, 08:27 PM
Kumar

Quote:

Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

I can't argue with your stats but I can only go by what I see. Davis with the ball in his hands is not as effective as he is when he is off the ball. What makes him so good IMO is that he is so crafty at scoring without the ball. Once he gets a go to move, he's going to be great. Once again, not arguing with your stats but if you watched the USA game against Turkey, a lot of his output came off of rebounding, fast breaks, and assisted buckets. His offensive game is progressing but IMO its not top 3.....yet.

Oh yeah he's not top three yet, I was just trying to bring context to this. Davis is good because he scores in an incredibly versatile amount of ways. He doesn't have one thing he over relies on.
09-01-2014, 08:44 PM
pelicanchamp

Quote:

Originally Posted by saintsinNO

Determinative proof? No. But stats, success, peer opinion, expert opinion, advanced stats and the eye test (general public) are all weighted evidence. Da ThRONe routinely says outlandish things that differ from everyone and loses in each of those categories (usually overwhelmingly) to everyone but him. Point is he offers nothing in the way of anything credible to even weigh in the favor of his opinion, other than just BS he spews. This is the internet, there is nothing wrong with engaging an idiot.

Totally agree with this post.

The guy is literally advocating for Drummond's offense over AD's. That should draw a ban in and of itself.

You can't rank multiple guys above AD when he is widely regarded by most everyone as a top player and provide NO support for your position, other than "because that's how I feel," and expect anyone to take you seriously. I asked for the stats in the last two years to justify these rankings....any stats...yet he has NONE and disregards anything he can't address. I understand not being a 'stats guy,' but you have NOTHING?? He focuses only mindless back and forth banter and doesn't truly offer the 'other side' argument because it's all unsupported BS just for the sake of being different. The guy is full of ****. He knows nothing about basketball. Period. End of story.

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09-01-2014, 08:49 PM
pelicanchamp

Guys AD is gonna blow the F up this season. I have no doubt. All the signs are there. This guy is going to be better than 95 percent of the league and the PELS will be in the playoffs. Can anyone here just understand this very simple reality. It will be proven. Can't wait.

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09-01-2014, 09:17 PM
NOEngineer

90% of the bigs in this league cannot do the things AD can "off the ball". He has exceptional ability to get open near the basket, catch almost anything thrown near him, and control his body to score and get fouled. His ability "on the ball" is slightly above average rather than just being exceptional. However, the thing that makes him elite is the combination of the two skill sets plus above-average free throw percentage, exceptional blocking ability and stealing ability, exceptional speed. If you focus on the few holes in his game you miss the point. Every player has holes in his game. LeBron is the closest thing to a flawless player ever seen, due to his combination of skill and size. Davis is not as skilled in any area, and is not as big as Lebron was before his low-substances diet. So, LeBron in his prime is better than Davis now, and probably better than Davis will be in his prime. KD lacks the size of AD, but has shooting range that I doubt AD will ever have. So, AD has a chance to be better than KD.
09-01-2014, 09:36 PM
Biasvasospasm

What I really liked, and what I'd like to see more of, is AD facilitating out of the high post. Instead of taking the open jumper, which he can get whenever unless he's on fire, I really liked when AD got the ball at the top of the key and hit cutters or perimeter shooters. He's an above average passer, skill wise, for position. His stats haven't reflected that yet. As much as anything, that needs to be the next step for AD.
09-01-2014, 10:22 PM
DefensiveMind

Appreciate the people trying to take the heat off the dude...but spare us. If you wanna change the topic or try the steer the discourse in another direction, by all means go ahead. But as has been plainly laid out, the dude made his bed. This is a discussion board, people are going to discuss things. Especially that which is full of manure. It's fun.
09-01-2014, 10:30 PM
wuggie

It seems to me why some think AD isn't as good as other top tier superstars is because he's special. This guy is just him. We haven't seen anything like him exactly before to compare him to as a standard of elite ability as we have had in the past. I mean with Kobe, Lebron we seen Jordan and other legendary wings and with AD we have Duncan, KG, Robinson who are reminiscent of AD but at this stage of his career not exactly.

Maybe we will see in the future how good he can truly be and honestly he has the potential to be amazing both offensely and defensively. He's already surpassed my expectations almost and he hasn't even got a solid go to move yet. He's so good overall he dosent really need one lol
09-01-2014, 10:55 PM
pelicanchamp

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biasvasospasm

Stats can be deceiving, but rarely at the outlier level. There haven't been many guys with, for instance, a PER above 25 at age 25 or less who weren't ultimately super-elite players. Here's a list of guys from the 3 point era onwards, sorted by win shares:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...t=&order_by=ws
The vast majority of guys on this list (Jordan, James, Durant, Robinson, Barkley, O'Neal, Wade, Moses Malone, Magic Johnson, etc.) are hall of famers and in many cases all-time greats. There are a few who got derailed by injuries (Amare, Grant Hill, McGrady, Yao Ming) but were regarded as elite talents in their primes. There's one odd case who flamed out for a while who is probably still a HOFer (Vince Carter). There are a few guys who are still playing, two of whom were elite talents and likely HOFs (Bosh, Paul), and 3 younger guys who the jury is still out (Love, Cousins, Davis). There are two guys who I don't regard as elite talents on that list, Brook Lopez who was 25 in his season and only played 533 minutes, and Terrell Brandon, who was 25 in his season and was a nice player whose next best PER was 21.5. If you make the age year 21 season or less, it becomes a much shorter list, just O'Neal, James, Durant, Jordan, and Magic, and Davis. Only James and Davis did it in their age 20 season. I just find it unlikely that he's that much of statistical anomaly.

Thanks for this AWESOME post. You did some homework.

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09-02-2014, 12:21 AM
Jabberwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Biasvasospasm

What I really liked, and what I'd like to see more of, is AD facilitating out of the high post. Instead of taking the open jumper, which he can get whenever unless he's on fire, I really liked when AD got the ball at the top of the key and hit cutters or perimeter shooters. He's an above average passer, skill wise, for position. His stats haven't reflected that yet. As much as anything, that needs to be the next step for AD.

I kept thinking that last year. They kept getting him the ball at the elbow but it looked like he would either look for the run at the rim or the jumper. As his jumper improves I'd love to see him pass out of it more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumar

Oh yeah he's not top three yet, I was just trying to bring context to this. Davis is good because he scores in an incredibly versatile amount of ways. He doesn't have one thing he over relies on.

I was hoping someone else would bring this up but how many moves does Dirk have? How many moves did LMA use when he dropped those huge numbers in the playoffs? Limited moves != bad offense. One dribble dunk off of a P/R isn't a bad move when you have a near 8 ft wingspan, jump like a gazel and are faster than some guards.
09-02-2014, 12:30 AM
Tin_Food

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

What blows my mind is that we can't just accept a difference of opinion.
It reminds me of when people from different religions argue over who's is more correct. When you negate the other's belief people get very defensive. Only usually it's over something (supposedly) more meaningful than a sport where men throw a ball through a rim.

Also, if I had no idea who any players were and just stumbled into this conversation and was trying to judge who was right and wrong I'd probably agree with daThrone because he is using actual arguments. Everyone else uses some kind of conjecture. Saying "everyone agrees with us" doesn't make you right. saying "If you don't agree by now you never will" doesn't support your claim or refute his. Every time this argument comes up people counter with stats first, which daThrone immediately reminds people that he doesn't put much value into. Nor should anyone. We've seen 'fake stats' before. Who cares if you get great stats if your team loses. Did the Spurs have a single player who averaged more than 16 ppg last season? Stats don't immediately translate to success. They then say "everyone knows how good he is/will be" as if that is a helpful argument. The vast majority who agrees with itself because it is the vast majority does nothing but serve it's own proliferation.

No one aside from Tin_Food even tried to have a conversation but moved toward badgering daThrone for having a difference of opinion. Why? What does it matter to you if he thinks AD isn't as good/going to be as good as you? He brings some valid points that we can look for in AD's development. That's great.

And to the point that he doesn't like the moves we made so he shouldn't be a fan, don't be ridiculous. So we should only be fans of teams who's GMs we like and when the GM changes we should then change the team we root for? I can hate every single move the Pels ever make and root for them. DaThrone isn't rooting for us to lose, he wants us to win but thinks we are going about it incorrectly. Maybe we should listen to him instead of getting upset that he might wake us from our dreamworld.

And what's so silly is that I disagree with DaThrone. Everything I've seen from AD tells me he is a very skilled offensive player. Admittedly I haven't watched a whole lot of Pistons so I can't speak to the comparison between the two but I think if AD gets better at defense this year he will be a great player for our team.

Oh, and just wanted to give a quick kudos to Tin_food for being so awesome to actually have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you. It's easy to get swept up in the overreaction undertow when everyone who agrees with you is so gung-ho on belittling someone.

Thanks, I agree I'm pretty awesome :cool: . Haha

For me I guess the reason why I'm a little uneasy with AD is because there hasn't really been a player like him before. I think if AD was able to play like Bynum in his prime or TD where they're more physically imposing, I wouldn't be as perturbed. There hasn't been a player this transformational since KG/Dirk, and even then AD is vastly different from them. The closest most have been able to compare him to is the admiral, but when Robinson came into the league he was tanked up and was able to bully ball other bigs. AD hasn't and I'm not sure if he'll ever be able or ever want to do that (doesn't seem like it's his game). He's sort of like KD in that sense, where people weren't sure if he'd ever be great because he never really bulked up.

Honestly I'm more excited about his defensive ability than his offensive ability, MM even said in the podcasts or in BSS articles that AD wasn't that good on defense this past season (Jumped too much on head fakes and didn't enforce the paint that well). Bill Russell ceiling Ben Wallace floor is what I see for him, THAT is really worth getting excited over.

Offensively, regarding his skills, like I said before, they're relatively good for a big, but not that great for a back court position. Regarding dribbling, I'd say Griffin is ahead of him in that category, also he's a bit more explosive and quick at changing direction. I'd say Odom in his prime and LA right now probably have a slight edge over AD in the handles department. His jumper is nice, and probably one of the best I've seen from a big, but I don't really want him taking that many mid range Js anyway (would rather 3 point range), his post up game (short to mid hooks) are nice and I hope will improve because I think is where he can make the biggest impact. His drives at the moment are a bit too hard line atm (if he could change direction a bit with a cross over or stutter step it would greatly improve it imo), and he doesn't yet seem to have the strength to finish through because he falls/dives alot, thankfully he gets a decent amount of superstar calls which makes up for it.

His touch (especially around the basket) however is amazing and that for me is probably his greatest offensive skill and what makes him so efficient. I remember watching Tyson Chandler doing similar things but he wasn't as good because he didn't have the same touch. It's because of this that I think that if he improved his dribble or post up moves (and hopefully his strength) he could really wreak havoc on the rest of the league, especially because that kind of game disrupts a defense more so than a mid range J could.

Honestly though if he develops that over 3-4 years I'd be happy, we have so much offensive talent atm that he doesn't really need to get it all together that quick. A Kentucky role with a bit more to do on offense is pretty good right now and he's already top 3 amongst pfs.

So i guess a couple things that make me uneasy about ADs progress towards superstardom:
1. He doesn't really dominate like bigs in the past have, in terms of physicality.
2. His guard skills are great for a big, but not that great for a guard
3. He still gets pushed around a bit, and relies on a mid range J more than I'd like (hope he doesn't fall in love with it)

The fact that I can comment on so many facets on offense just speaks to how transcendent he is. Even if he never develops those points I've made he'll still likely be a top 5 pf when it's all said and done. It's more that we've never had a guy to play like this that makes it all a little perplexing, but I'd alike it to the way dealer demps has gone about constructing this team with young veterans (potentially won't have to take a massive jump in pay come their next contracts). No one has ever done it this way, so you don't know if it'll work (though I'd say there's a real good chance it will work). It's slightly terrifying but also terribly exciting.
09-02-2014, 02:48 AM
da ThRONe

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

This sums up Da Throne IMO.

To Da Throne:

During my google-fu from the other day(which you said you challenged me to post so I am) it was very evident that you put yourself out there in the world of the internet claiming Davis was not going to be as good as advertised and as a consequence of being so wrong you continue to look for the negative in everything about Davis and the positives in the guys you projected to do well.

Without further ado here was my supporting evidence for my earlier claims.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...5#post21694025

Here he is claiming no less then ten people will be more effective stars day one then Davis coming into the NBA:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...1#post21698221

Here he is showing his preference for Robinson, Kidd-Gilchrest and Beal over Davis in the draft:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=883

And here is a year later still trying to save face with his Robinson will be better then Davis predictions which plays to the notion that he will stick to his original hypothesis until there is no fathomable way he can maintain it any longer:
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...&postcount=225

Here he is saying that if Anthony Davis sustains his level of play(to which he exceeded it) he would consider building around Davis over Love. But showing DaThrones nature he clearly has re-neged on giving Davis any credit for his marvelous performance last season by ranking him much further down then Love:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

This is the discussion that sums it up for me. He made an entire thread about his 2012 draft projections and listed Davis as the 7th best player. Then went on to make extremely ignorant assertions that you can see in his posts today that he still clings to in many ways:

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...6#post27451876

And now after all of this he still says this yesterday:

To me it is as clear as day that Da Throne is the type of individual that has a difficult time admitting he was completely wrong. His most damning predictions have been blown out of the water. Offensive ceiling is Howard, he can't add weight without losing his explosiveness, has poor ball handling, won't improve offensively from where he was in college, will struggle to be anything more then a role player. On and on and on.

Instead of admitting he projected the draft poorly and he was wrong you see him making excuses to support his original hypothesis years afterwards. Even to the present day with guys like Davis. For guys he projected poorly, namely Davis, he is constantly skeptical about Davis adding moves to his repertoire but with guys like Robinson and Drummond he is/was constantly arguing to give them more time because they will develop(Just read through the Operation Sports thread to see more examples). For Davis he was and is what you see from here on out, and for every skill he does improve he counters with a negative(well if Davis gets bigger he won't be explosive) for others he projected better he sees them getting better. Player development only works on guys he originally saw as stars that haven't quite made that leap yet but for guys like Davis that he projected poorly he refuses to accept that they will improve. You constantly see that with his belief Drummond is just scratching the surface but Davis will never improve or add enough skills to raise him above his arbitrary line that makes you a franchise player.

To the point now where his confirmation bias and stubbornness is so strong that it has led to an irrational skepticism of Davis and an embracement of a number of silly hypotheticals and arguments based on selective framing of facts and information that ultimately is rooted in his predictions from years back not aligning with reality. And on the other hand he gives players failures and flaws a pass that he had strong positive predictions for. Yes he likes to throw out at times that he will admit he is wrong and has done so in the past but it is clear that he will tie his anchor to a sinking ship until it is completely sunk. So until there is literally no argument out there that Da Throne can make to knock Davis expect him to continue taking the side that Davis isn't what almost everyone else who watches basketball sees.

I don't mean to pile on Da Throne because I have defended him in other threads where he takes opinions against the consensus but in this instance it is such a regular occurrence that I felt it needed addressing.

This is weird considering I have already said I was wrong about Davis is some respect. Yet I get no credit for adapting my opinion. Instead it's completely ignored or even worse in your post used against me. I have no problem being wrong if Davis does go on to win MVP's they'll be no debating. However my problem has been with his skill set and your research pretty much confirms that.

I think the point that I make excuses for player has been address. The level of expectations are what impacts my level of criticism.

Again I've given Davis the credit for his improvement and you confirm this yet you and many other continue to say that I haven't changed and will never change? Which is it?
09-02-2014, 10:51 AM
David Fisher

Cousins just airballed an alley-opp dunk attempt...
09-02-2014, 07:27 PM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by da ThRONe

This is weird considering I have already said I was wrong about Davis is some respect. Yet I get no credit for adapting my opinion. Instead it's completely ignored or even worse in your post used against me. I have no problem being wrong if Davis does go on to win MVP's they'll be no debating. However my problem has been with his skill set and your research pretty much confirms that.

I think the point that I make excuses for player has been address. The level of expectations are what impacts my level of criticism.

Again I've given Davis the credit for his improvement and you confirm this yet you and many other continue to say that I haven't changed and will never change? Which is it?

Shouldn't you evaluate all players evenly when you are making a top 25 list. How is it fair to rank a player like Drummond higher and be less critical of him? Yet again, this is just another excuse you hide behind to try and protect your being critical of Davis but is really just BS.

How much would you like to bet against AD will be better than Drummond this season? Choose the amount. If you are so confident in your evaluations then you should easily jump on this bet. I will put up $1,000 that AD will have a better season than Drummond. Money will go to a 3rd party (I'm sure there's a website for just this type of thing) and at the end of the season winner claims it. Basically, put your money where your mouth is or shut up.

On an unrelated point, if Davis numbers aren't usable because he was on a bad team, are his USAB numbers not usable as well? He has an all-star team around him and he is still the best player. Talent level, competition, etc are all irrelevant because they are all going against the same teams.
09-02-2014, 09:56 PM
tthier2

I have no problem with someone having a difference of opinion and in all actuality I welcome it. I just reiterated thst there is no need to keep clamoring over this guy's opinion when it is obvious that it is always negative. Some people live their lives to go out of the way to be negative. Jabber walker you can't honestly say that any reasonable fan would hate every single move that their favorite team makes and further more would think so lowly of a potential superstar like A.D. This is just common sense. I personally could care less I'm just stating the obvious. This is a discussion board so discussions are welcome. This is the same on any board though. If you go to saintsreport and constantly bash Brees every chance you get don't you think other fans would be like really? Gtfoh. This is simply my point.
09-03-2014, 12:13 AM
pelicanchamp

Da throne, Davis is way better than you thought. He's better than 95 percent of the league already. THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
09-03-2014, 03:53 AM
da ThRONe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

Shouldn't you evaluate all players evenly when you are making a top 25 list. How is it fair to rank a player like Drummond higher and be less critical of him? Yet again, this is just another excuse you hide behind to try and protect your being critical of Davis but is really just BS.

How much would you like to bet against AD will be better than Drummond this season? Choose the amount. If you are so confident in your evaluations then you should easily jump on this bet. I will put up $1,000 that AD will have a better season than Drummond. Money will go to a 3rd party (I'm sure there's a website for just this type of thing) and at the end of the season winner claims it. Basically, put your money where your mouth is or shut up.

On an unrelated point, if Davis numbers aren't usable because he was on a bad team, are his USAB numbers not usable as well? He has an all-star team around him and he is still the best player. Talent level, competition, etc are all irrelevant because they are all going against the same teams.

A bet proves nothing did I already not go through with this with someone else? Because if I were to win it doesn't prove Drummond is greater than Davis like wise the opposite would be true.
09-03-2014, 04:03 AM
da ThRONe

Quote:

Originally Posted by tthier2

I have no problem with someone having a difference of opinion and in all actuality I welcome it. I just reiterated thst there is no need to keep clamoring over this guy's opinion when it is obvious that it is always negative. Some people live their lives to go out of the way to be negative. Jabber walker you can't honestly say that any reasonable fan would hate every single move that their favorite team makes and further more would think so lowly of a potential superstar like A.D. This is just common sense. I personally could care less I'm just stating the obvious. This is a discussion board so discussions are welcome. This is the same on any board though. If you go to saintsreport and constantly bash Brees every chance you get don't you think other fans would be like really? Gtfoh. This is simply my point.

If a fan had a lesser opinion of Brees than I did and gave detailed reason why even if I didn't agree I would respectfully agree to disagree. Like the mature adult that I am. Also I'm not bashing Davis. I've never said he sucks or is a bad player. You all receive my lesser opinion of his overall potential as a diss(almost as if it's a personal attack).

Why is it my fandom is being question based on how I feel about personnel moves? Please somebody explain how one thing equals the other. Were Saints fans that showed up to the game in paper bags over their heads less of a fan? What moves can I dislike and still be considered a legit fan or do I literally have to like them all?
09-03-2014, 04:06 AM
da ThRONe

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Da throne, Davis is way better than you thought. He's better than 95 percent of the league already. THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is again your opinion which is cool and I won't question your BBall IQ or insult you for having this opinion. It's not an opinion that I share and I have given evidence as to why I see things the way I do.
09-03-2014, 07:31 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by da ThRONe

A bet proves nothing did I already not go through with this with someone else? Because if I were to win it doesn't prove Drummond is greater than Davis like wise the opposite would be true.

A bet proves a lot. It proves you aren't a troll and actually believe the crap you spew.

You want people to take you seriously? You want people to believe that you honestly feel this way? Then accept the bet.

Otherwise, it proves deep down you honestly have no faith in what you are saying and you are just trolling. I'm giving you the opportunity to be taken seriously. And I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't a troll.

See, I actually believe what my opinion is and think I'm so right that I have no problem betting with someone who things I'm wrong. I have no fear of losing the money because I know I won't. Obviously. By you making excuses you don't actually believe the things your mouth spews.

And you still ignored my other points.
09-03-2014, 10:34 AM
jdmcuc

LOL YOU WANT TO PLACE A BET OVER WHAT IS SAID ON A FORUM?! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!
09-03-2014, 10:43 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmcuc

LOL YOU WANT TO PLACE A BET OVER WHAT IS SAID ON A FORUM?! ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!

What does where the discussion take place have anything to do with it? I'm challenging a person to actually show backbone in their opinion. If he wants to be taken seriously, as he pretends he does, then he would accept. It's really that simple.

He also didn't answer either of my two other questions on the subject.
09-03-2014, 11:01 AM
jdmcuc

Has no one ever taught you not to take things on the internet so seriously? I hope you were joking, because it was pretty funny.
09-03-2014, 11:08 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmcuc

Has no one ever taught you not to take things on the internet so seriously? I hope you were joking, because it was pretty funny.

I don't think you've read my other posts. I've already stated I think DT is a troll and I don't believe anything he states on this subject. He wants to pretend he isn't and he wants his opinion taken seriously, this is his chance. I don't expect him to though because that would mean he'd have to actually believe what he is spewing and it's clear he doesn't.
09-03-2014, 11:23 AM
jdmcuc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

I don't think you've read my other posts. I've already stated I think DT is a troll and I don't believe anything he states on this subject. He wants to pretend he isn't and he wants his opinion taken seriously, this is his chance. I don't expect him to though because that would mean he'd have to actually believe what he is spewing and it's clear he doesn't.

I don't agree with a single opinion DT has regarding Davis vs Drummond. I don't have to, neither do you. You don't have to believe in another persons opinion. You are losing sleep over nothing lol. He's a troll? Then ignore him. He hasn't flamed or insulted anyone directly. If he's insulted you merely by expressing himself and his opinion then that's on you.
09-03-2014, 11:23 AM
Jabberwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Da throne, Davis is way better than you thought. He's better than 95 percent of the league already. THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE FOR THIS.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by tthier2

I have no problem with someone having a difference of opinion and in all actuality I welcome it. I just reiterated thst there is no need to keep clamoring over this guy's opinion when it is obvious that it is always negative. Some people live their lives to go out of the way to be negative. Jabber walker you can't honestly say that any reasonable fan would hate every single move that their favorite team makes and further more would think so lowly of a potential superstar like A.D. This is just common sense. I personally could care less I'm just stating the obvious. This is a discussion board so discussions are welcome. This is the same on any board though. If you go to saintsreport and constantly bash Brees every chance you get don't you think other fans would be like really? Gtfoh. This is simply my point.

EVERYONE JUST KNOWS. JUST REITERATE OPINIONS AS GROUPTHINK UNTIL WE ALL THINK THE SAME.

Stats can be misleading and we can all agree on that so it shouldn't be surprising that someone doesn't accept AD's stats as conclusive evidence of how good he is. We can measure team success, which AD has none in the NBA. We can measure the eye test, which is subjective, which DaThrone has reached the conclusion that AD is better than he originally thought, but isn't as good as most people here think. And that is just fine. And yes, I still assert that you can be a fan of a team if you hate every move they make. In fact, it would make you one hell of a fan that you could have such objectivity, go through such frustration with their direction, and continue to root for them.
09-03-2014, 11:31 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmcuc

I don't agree with a single opinion DT has regarding Davis vs Drummond. I don't have to, neither do you. You don't have to believe in another persons opinion. You are losing sleep over nothing lol. He's a troll? Then ignore him. He hasn't flamed or insulted anyone directly. If he's insulted you merely by expressing himself and his opinion then that's on you.

Where did I say I was losing sleep? Like I said, I don't care what his opinion is but if he's going to sit here and pretend he is serious then I will still call him out.

Seems you have a problem with my posts. I suggest you take your own advice and just ignore them.
09-03-2014, 11:36 AM
jdmcuc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

Where did I say I was losing sleep? Like I said, I don't care what his opinion is but if he's going to sit here and pretend he is serious then I will still call him out.

Seems you have a problem with my posts. I suggest you take your own advice and just ignore them.

You say you don't care yet you continue to call him out. Very contradicting. No need to be so hostile. I just don't believe in people taking heat for having a difference in opinion.
09-03-2014, 11:37 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

EVERYONE JUST KNOWS. JUST REITERATE OPINIONS AS GROUPTHINK UNTIL WE ALL THINK THE SAME.

Stats can be misleading and we can all agree on that so it shouldn't be surprising that someone doesn't accept AD's stats as conclusive evidence of how good he is. We can measure team success, which AD has none in the NBA. We can measure the eye test, which is subjective, which DaThrone has reached the conclusion that AD is better than he originally thought, but isn't as good as most people here think. And that is just fine. And yes, I still assert that you can be a fan of a team if you hate every move they make. In fact, it would make you one hell of a fan that you could have such objectivity, go through such frustration with their direction, and continue to root for them.

Wait. So let me get this right. Stats can be misleading but we can measure with the eye test? LOL.

Individual stats taken separately can be misleading, but not an entire group of stats all saying the same time. They are a FAR clearer indication of a player than some random person's eye test.

Fortunately for Davis, we have both.
09-03-2014, 11:39 AM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmcuc

You say you don't care yet you continue to call him out. Very contradicting. No need to be so hostile. I just don't believe in people taking heat for having a difference in opinion.

Not at all. I don't care what his opinion is but that doesn't mean I'm going to allow it to go unchecked. If he is going to express troll bait then I'm going to call it out every time.

Especially when just a few months ago he admitted AD was better than Drummond and yet now has it flipped again.
09-03-2014, 12:01 PM
Jabberwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

Wait. So let me get this right. Stats can be misleading but we can measure with the eye test? LOL.

Individual stats taken separately can be misleading, but not an entire group of stats all saying the same time. They are a FAR clearer indication of a player than some random person's eye test.

Fortunately for Davis, we have both.

From a logical standpoint, yes. What I'm saying is that if you know basketball, watch a guy play, and don't think he's very good but get's good stats are you really going to change your mind on a guy? How "good" is Carmelo Anthony or James Harden? Do they help or hurt their teams? Of course they can score, but how much better do they score than the replacement player? How much does the other team score because of their defense? Are they a net positive or negative? They have amazing across the board numbers AND team success yet I personally think AD will be a far better player than either of them this season. I agree that the stats that AD does get are insane and support the eye test that he is great. But how crazy is it to see those stats and think he is getting good stats on a bad team and your eye test says he isn't good? It's not that far fetched right?
So for DaThrone, he does see huge stats but his eye-test doesn't support those stats so he doesn't have both.

You're also dismissing team success, which AD certainly doesn't have in the NBA (yet). Which would only serve DaThrone and damage your argument. So we have three factors, eye test, stats and team success. DaThrone thinks 2 of 3 of those go against AD and you think that 2 of three of those go for him. Now how crazy is it?
09-03-2014, 12:12 PM
Mythrol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

From a logical standpoint, yes. What I'm saying is that if you know basketball, watch a guy play, and don't think he's very good but get's good stats are you really going to change your mind on a guy? How "good" is Carmelo Anthony or James Harden? Do they help or hurt their teams? Of course they can score, but how much better do they score than the replacement player? How much does the other team score because of their defense? Are they a net positive or negative? They have amazing across the board numbers AND team success yet I personally think AD will be a far better player than either of them this season. I agree that the stats that AD does get are insane and support the eye test that he is great. But how crazy is it to see those stats and think he is getting good stats on a bad team and your eye test says he isn't good? It's not that far fetched right?
So for DaThrone, he does see huge stats but his eye-test doesn't support those stats so he doesn't have both.

You're also dismissing team success, which AD certainly doesn't have in the NBA (yet). Which would only serve DaThrone and damage your argument. So we have three factors, eye test, stats and team success. DaThrone thinks 2 of 3 of those go against AD and you think that 2 of three of those go for him. Now how crazy is it?

What does team success have to do with ranking of top 25 overall players? Is the argument the Pistons will be more successful than the Pels due to Drummond the reason Drummond is ranked higher?

We are not having an mvp discussion. We are talking about the top 25 list that DT released where he had AD behind Drummond. We also have DT admitting he evaluates players to different degrees even though they are on the same list.

There is not 3 equal factors that make a player better than another. The problem with DTs entire argument is he is using one, his own eye test, and completely ignoring all other eye tests and all stats and then ignores all arguments made against him because (my eyes see AD more critical). He complains of not being taken seriously but doesn't actually want to listen to people's argument. He also will not stand behind his comments when challenged and instead tries to deflect.

Keep in mind I haven't ranked AD or said he will be top 3, 5, or 10 for this season. I have taken exception to DTs ranking of AD behind Drummond because I think that is the clearest sign of his trolling. He doesn't want AD top 10-15 ok fine. But he ranks players like Lillard top 10 and Drummond ahead of Davis.
09-03-2014, 12:13 PM
da ThRONe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

A bet proves a lot. It proves you aren't a troll and actually believe the crap you spew.

You want people to take you seriously? You want people to believe that you honestly feel this way? Then accept the bet.

Otherwise, it proves deep down you honestly have no faith in what you are saying and you are just trolling. I'm giving you the opportunity to be taken seriously. And I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't a troll.

See, I actually believe what my opinion is and think I'm so right that I have no problem betting with someone who things I'm wrong. I have no fear of losing the money because I know I won't. Obviously. By you making excuses you don't actually believe the things your mouth spews.

And you still ignored my other points.

I don't care if you think I'm a troll, especially not enough to wager a $1000 on an opinion and not something I can effect personally. I could believe what I believe and still not win for various reasons. Part of the reason I felt Drummond stats weren't more on par of what we think of from a star/superstar is his teammates. If Monroe and Smith are on the team I can see Drummond stats not taking the bump it would if one and/or both of those two are gone at the beginning of the season.

As far as grading people on my list equally I have. You don't see anybody on my supposed "players that I make excuses for" ahead of Davis on my list. The only person I have ahead of Davis is Drummond and he's doing crazy numbers(both raw and advanced) himself as the 4th option on a bad team. If Van Gundy plan is to make Drummond the first option it only stands to reason that he's likely to see a huge boost in production(especially raw stats).

As far as the FIBA thing. Davis is scoring trash buckets. While it's important to be able to finish on the breaks, as a cut man/roll man, and to clean up misses we see Faried having a similar type impact. FIBA basketball is kind to the "hustling trash man role" especially on a team like USA when we are going to run and the opposing teams can pack the paint to prevent perimeter drives because otherwise they could never stop our wings or guards. How many jumpers did Davis hit just last game? This isn't an strike on Davis either much like his year in UK this is what Coach K and USA basketball wants him to do and it's a role that he thrives in.
09-03-2014, 12:27 PM
tyler

Idk but didn't stats help the Greg stiemsma look serviceable? Correct me if i'm wrong
09-03-2014, 12:40 PM
da ThRONe

I will correct your fallacy and flat out false statements one at a time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

What does team success have to do with ranking of top 25 overall players? Is the argument the Pistons will be more successful than the Pels due to Drummond the reason Drummond is ranked higher?

This is a list of the top 25 players next year. As it stands it looks like Drummond role could go from 4th option to 1st. While you can make a case that Davis will be the 1st option for us, but he'll have barring another crazy year of injuries more guys looking for their offense that's better skilled than most of last year. Therefore he's more likely to dip in production if only the raw numbers.

Quote:

We are not having an mvp discussion. We are talking about the top 25 list that DT released where he had AD behind Drummond. We also have DT admitting he evaluates players to different degrees even though they are on the same list.

I never said I evaluate players to different degrees. I said the level of expectation increase the level of scrutiny. I never argued that Davis wasn't a good player never once. I have always resisted against calling him a franchise changing player or a potential top player in the game. Those kinds of players are rare and what is expected of them are incredible difficult. So to pass the test it is extremely difficult and I'm not sold on Davis based on what I see and this has been discussed here ad nauseam.

Quote:

There is not 3 equal factors that make a player better than another. The problem with DTs entire argument is he is using one, his own eye test, and completely ignoring all other eye tests and all stats and then ignores all arguments made against him because (my eyes see AD more critical). He complains of not being taken seriously but doesn't actually want to listen to people's argument. He also will not stand behind his comments when challenged and instead tries to deflect.

False. I have not ignored anything. I just think numbers need to be kept in perspective. Someone (maybe it was you) correctly pointed out that I said if I had to ranked the 2012 class right now I would put Davis ahead of Drummond as of last year. The reason being is because of Davis stats. So how can you make a point that I'm ignoring stats? This is for the 2014-15 season where I think Davis teammates will help him win more, but hurt his stat line. It's funny that you would comment on me ignoring others when for many it doesn't seem to matter what I actually say only what some of you want to perceive it as.

Quote:

Keep in mind I haven't ranked AD or said he will be top 3, 5, or 10 for this season. I have taken exception to DTs ranking of AD behind Drummond because I think that is the clearest sign of his trolling. He doesn't want AD top 10-15 ok fine. But he ranks players like Lillard top 10 and Drummond ahead of Davis.

False Lillard isn't even on my list.

Next this list is a projection for next season and for the X time I think Drummond role increases exponentially next season(provided Monroe is traded which I believe will happen) on top of my opinion that he has more potential than Davis.

If you can't read this one post and see your own flaws in this discussion I don't really know what to tell you. You are so hell bent on proving me wrong you aren't addressing this topic from a logical stand point in anything shy of "I was dead wrong Davis is the greatest player ever" you will look so hard for fault in my post you will only find your own.
09-03-2014, 01:09 PM
Mythrol

Now you are making an argument I can understand DT. Makes it a lot easier to take you seriously.

Just to make it clear, here is my argument for Davis over Drummond:

Let's compare shooting 0-3ft -
Drummond took 81% of his shots within 3ft of the goal. He finished those at a 68% rate.
Davis took 40% of his shots within 3ft of the goal. He finished those at a 70% rate.
3-10ft -
Drummond took 17% of his shots between 3-10ft of the goal. He finished those at a 39% rate.
Davis took 21% of his shots between 3-10ft of the goal. He finished those at a 41% rate.
10-16ft -
Drummond took less than 1% of his shots there. At a rate of 25%.
Davis took 18% of his shots there. He finished at a rate of 43%.

Also, only 16% of AD's FG were dunks. 26% of Drummond's were.

Ok, so Davis is a better scorer from every place on the field. But is he as offensively skilled as Drummond or is his offense all transition and put backs?

Let's go to Synergy and see -
Over 36% of Drummond's offense comes from put backs. In those situations he scored 1.05ppp (point per possession).
13% of Davis' offense is from put backs. In those situations he scored 1.27ppp.

The next highest for Drummond was on cuts. Which accounted for 20% of his offense. At a rate of 1.32ppp.
10% of Davis' offense came from cuts. At a rate of 1.24ppp.

The next highest amount of shots for Drummond came from Transition. 14% of his total offense. At a rate of 1.22ppp.
9% of Davis' offense came from Transition. He finished at a rate of 1.53ppp.

The next highest for Drummond was on Post-Ups. 11% of his total offense. At a rate of 0.71ppp.
14% of Davis's offense came from Post-Ups. At a rate of 0.88ppp.

81% of all of Drummond's offense came from these 4 different areas. No other area does Drummond have over 10% of his offense.
Davis on the other hand has 6 different areas where over 10% of his offense came from. He also had multiple areas where Drummond had less than 1% or no attempts of his total offense from. Davis had attempts from Isolation, Spot-Up, P&R Ball Handler, Off Screens, and Hand Offs. His offensive average out of those sets was 1.02ppp.

Out of 8 different offense plays that they both competed in AD beat Drummond on PPP in 6 of those 8. The two areas Drummond beat AD in was by an average 13.5% better. The 6 areas AD beat Drummond by was by an average 18.4% better. Meaning the areas AD beat Drummond in was by more than the areas Drummond beat AD in.

When you combine this with the fact that only 4 different plays accounted for 81% of Drummond's offense it's clear that AD is more skilled than Drummond.

Even when looking at other stats it's clear AD is the better player. For instance even though their Free Throw rates were about 1% apart AD hit them at nearly double the % as Drummond (79.1% for AD compared to 41.8% for Drummond). Because of this even though Drummond had a higher FG % (because 81% of his shots comes from within 3ft of the goal) their TS% was within roughly 1% of each other. AD at 58.2% compared to Drummonds 59.9%. When you realize that AD attempts nearly 50% more shots per game than Drummond you understand exactly how good AD is.

As a matter of fact there is only 1 area that Drummond clearly beats AD in and that's rebounds. When you look at per game stats AD put up 21pts and 10 rebounds. Drummond averaged 13pts and 13 rebounds. Their defense rebounding was actually only about 4% apart from each other but because Drummond has no range on offense he stays at the rim for putbacks and his offensive rebounding is higher. Overall Drummond has a Total Rebound Rate of 22% compared to Davis' 17%.

However, Davis is far better than Drummond in multiple areas. He has an assist rate that while low is still almost 400% higher than Drummond's (8% compared to 2.2%). He has a block rate that's 67% higher. Also, even though his usage was almost 10% higher (25.2% compared to 16.7%) than Drummond's his turnover rate was actually 23% lower than Drummond. This also tells us that Drummond isn't looked to on the offensive end as average usage rate would be 20%.

There are no good defensive stats available to the public so all we are left with is DRtg which they are identical in at 104 and Defensive Win Share which they are within 3/10th of a % of each other in. We are also left with the Synergy stats that say AD ranked 104th in overall defense compared to Drummond at 190th. AD allowed on overage .84 ppp on defense compared to Drummond's .88 ppp (yes that's the difference between 104th and 190th). He allowed .73ppp from Isolation compared to Drummond's .93ppp. Basically every area AD beat Drummond on defense was by 20% or more except for 1 area (he beat him by 5%). There were only 2 areas Drummond was better on the defensive end and by were both better by less than 5%.

What we have here is overall Davis is the clearly the more skilled offensive player, who even though he takes more shots because of his FT % he actually has a shooting % within 1% of someone who takes over 80% of his shots within 3ft of the basket. When you combine that with Davis' advantage in multiple areas including assists, blocks, turnovers, and defense it's clear that Davis is and will be the better player. It would take Davis regressing and Drummond progressing for the two to be considered even much less Drummond as better.

Now someone might argue "the eye test, the eye test" but there is no way any eye test will overcome the overwhelming amount of stats that point to Davis being the better player. And besides, in my eye test Davis is better. Don't believe my eyes? Here's Detroit fans before a game in Jan weighing in on the issue - Spoiler - They choose Davis.

Here's an ESPN Insider article from Jan that breaks down both players. Advantage Davis by a mile.

Sure that was last year though, what about the potential for next year? Remember, Drummond is in a situation with a new coach and possibly Monroe or Smith being moved, while Davis gets both Jrue and Ryan Anderson back and adding Asik. Monty has already stated that AD will be the No. 1 option on the team multiple times.

Drummond has shown nothing other than he sits under the basket or cuts toward the basket for put backs and dunks. The thought that he has the ability to be a No. 1 option based off of stats OR eye test is crazy. He simply hasn't shown it in any facet. Also, his FT% is so horrible that he won't be able to even stay in games as the No. 1 option late. Put into perspective Dwight Howard's LOWEST FT % season was 8% HIGHER than Drummond's HIGHEST season. Heck, Shaq's LOWEST FT% season was 5% higher than Drummond's HIGHEST. On average Shaq shot 13% higher than Drummond from FT.

This is not a person who will be a No. 1 option. And the projection that if he increases his offensive attempts he will be better offensively is not necessarily true. He could just as easily get worse offensively with increased attempts. Even Dwight's highest % of attempts from within 3ft season was still over 15% less attempts than Drummond has averaged. Shaw averaged 53% of his offense within 3ft of the basket. That's 27% less than Drummond. As a no. 1 option teams will just pack the paint and make it impossible for Drummond to do anything. Take him out of 3ft of the basket and his numbers TANK.

And as I've already pointed out, Davis is already better than Drummond on Defense. As he adds size and weight he will just get better.

It's not even close.
09-03-2014, 01:30 PM
UptownFuz504

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

From a logical standpoint, yes. What I'm saying is that if you know basketball, watch a guy play, and don't think he's very good but get's good stats are you really going to change your mind on a guy? How "good" is Carmelo Anthony or James Harden? Do they help or hurt their teams? Of course they can score, but how much better do they score than the replacement player? How much does the other team score because of their defense? Are they a net positive or negative? They have amazing across the board numbers AND team success yet I personally think AD will be a far better player than either of them this season. I agree that the stats that AD does get are insane and support the eye test that he is great. But how crazy is it to see those stats and think he is getting good stats on a bad team and your eye test says he isn't good? It's not that far fetched right?
So for DaThrone, he does see huge stats but his eye-test doesn't support those stats so he doesn't have both.

You're also dismissing team success, which AD certainly doesn't have in the NBA (yet). Which would only serve DaThrone and damage your argument. So we have three factors, eye test, stats and team success. DaThrone thinks 2 of 3 of those go against AD and you think that 2 of three of those go for him. Now how crazy is it?

To your point, Kevin Love puts up stellar numbers and its always said around here that he's overrated and puts up numbers on a bad team. Why is it any different when Davis does it? Some of these arguments make no sense. If it applies to one it should apply to all. I personally think that AD is a star but let's not forget that he's doing the same things that other players are doing and we're dismissing their efforts due to the above mentioned reasons. Also, if we're going to call out Melo, Harden, and guys like those who are great players but haven't won, isn't it hypocritical to talk about AD as the best player in the league when in fact he falls into the same categories as some of the players deemed overrated due to their lack of success? I said all of that to say this. This entire convo is an opinion. Without a hard set of guidelines to guide the argument, no one is either right or wrong. It's just opinion. So why is everyone so angry that Da Throne doesn't agree with your opinions? To put this argument into context, we should put together a list of criteria to be in the top 10 and then rank players based on those criteria. Anything else is hyperbole. Eye test vs metrics will always end in an argument. Metrics have so many holes in it and they don't take into account game time situations that you cannot solely rely on them to be a determining factor. Eye test has its own set of faults.

I don't even know if this post was on topic but I just wanted to say it, dammit.
09-03-2014, 02:11 PM
Jabberwalker

Quote:

Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

To your point, Kevin Love puts up stellar numbers and its always said around here that he's overrated and puts up numbers on a bad team. Why is it any different when Davis does it? Some of these arguments make no sense. If it applies to one it should apply to all. I personally think that AD is a star but let's not forget that he's doing the same things that other players are doing and we're dismissing their efforts due to the above mentioned reasons. Also, if we're going to call out Melo, Harden, and guys like those who are great players but haven't won, isn't it hypocritical to talk about AD as the best player in the league when in fact he falls into the same categories as some of the players deemed overrated due to their lack of success? I said all of that to say this. This entire convo is an opinion. Without a hard set of guidelines to guide the argument, no one is either right or wrong. It's just opinion. So why is everyone so angry that Da Throne doesn't agree with your opinions? To put this argument into context, we should put together a list of criteria to be in the top 10 and then rank players based on those criteria. Anything else is hyperbole. Eye test vs metrics will always end in an argument. Metrics have so many holes in it and they don't take into account game time situations that you cannot solely rely on them to be a determining factor. Eye test has its own set of faults.

I don't even know if this post was on topic but I just wanted to say it, dammit.
09-03-2014, 07:13 PM
da ThRONe

1st let me say that this is a much better approach to a discussion that even in your opinion should be a slamdunk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythrol

Now you are making an argument I can understand DT. Makes it a lot easier to take you seriously.

Just to make it clear, here is my argument for Davis over Drummond:

Let's compare shooting 0-3ft -
Drummond took 81% of his shots within 3ft of the goal. He finished those at a 68% rate.
Davis took 40% of his shots within 3ft of the goal. He finished those at a 70% rate.
3-10ft -
Drummond took 17% of his shots between 3-10ft of the goal. He finished those at a 39% rate.
Davis took 21% of his shots between 3-10ft of the goal. He finished those at a 41% rate.
10-16ft -
Drummond took less than 1% of his shots there. At a rate of 25%.
Davis took 18% of his shots there. He finished at a rate of 43%.

Also, only 16% of AD's FG were dunks. 26% of Drummond's were.

Ok, so Davis is a better scorer from every place on the field. But is he as offensively skilled as Drummond or is his offense all transition and put backs?

I don't think there was ever a question about Drummond's range on the court. He's limited. However saying a guy is 2% better statically therefore he's better is the very agrument I make against stats. On the plays how was the spacing? Who was the defender? How much time was left on the shotclock? These are just a handful of question that the raw %'s doesn't answer.

Quote:

Let's go to Synergy and see -
Over 36% of Drummond's offense comes from put backs. In those situations he scored 1.05ppp (point per possession).
13% of Davis' offense is from put backs. In those situations he scored 1.27ppp.

The next highest for Drummond was on cuts. Which accounted for 20% of his offense. At a rate of 1.32ppp.
10% of Davis' offense came from cuts. At a rate of 1.24ppp.

The next highest amount of shots for Drummond came from Transition. 14% of his total offense. At a rate of 1.22ppp.
9% of Davis' offense came from Transition. He finished at a rate of 1.53ppp.

The next highest for Drummond was on Post-Ups. 11% of his total offense. At a rate of 0.71ppp.
14% of Davis's offense came from Post-Ups. At a rate of 0.88ppp.

81% of all of Drummond's offense came from these 4 different areas. No other area does Drummond have over 10% of his offense.
Davis on the other hand has 6 different areas where over 10% of his offense came from. He also had multiple areas where Drummond had less than 1% or no attempts of his total offense from. Davis had attempts from Isolation, Spot-Up, P&R Ball Handler, Off Screens, and Hand Offs. His offensive average out of those sets was 1.02ppp.

Out of 8 different offense plays that they both competed in AD beat Drummond on PPP in 6 of those 8. The two areas Drummond beat AD in was by an average 13.5% better. The 6 areas AD beat Drummond by was by an average 18.4% better. Meaning the areas AD beat Drummond in was by more than the areas Drummond beat AD in.

When you combine this with the fact that only 4 different plays accounted for 81% of Drummond's offense it's clear that AD is more skilled than Drummond.

I love synergy probably my most favorite subscriptions, but there statically breakdown may be some of the worse. I've seen plays logged in for Davis that was actually Ajinca or times where it was suppose to be Drummond and was Monroe instead. I wouldn't place much faith if any in there numbers.

But let's just assume Synergy is spot on. This again proves nothing other than the fact that Drummond is limited in the areas he's affective offensively which we already knew and agree on. This however does not concede that Davis has more skill. It just means being a quality shooter gives you more offensive range.

Quote:

Even when looking at other stats it's clear AD is the better player. For instance even though their Free Throw rates were about 1% apart AD hit them at nearly double the % as Drummond (79.1% for AD compared to 41.8% for Drummond). Because of this even though Drummond had a higher FG % (because 81% of his shots comes from within 3ft of the goal) their TS% was within roughly 1% of each other. AD at 58.2% compared to Drummonds 59.9%. When you realize that AD attempts nearly 50% more shots per game than Drummond you understand exactly how good AD is.

Here you are showing your bias. 2%(roughly) in one area proves Davis is better yet here you are trying to minimize that same 2% (roughly) when it favors Drummond.

Quote:

As a matter of fact there is only 1 area that Drummond clearly beats AD in and that's rebounds. When you look at per game stats AD put up 21pts and 10 rebounds. Drummond averaged 13pts and 13 rebounds. Their defense rebounding was actually only about 4% apart from each other but because Drummond has no range on offense he stays at the rim for putbacks and his offensive rebounding is higher. Overall Drummond has a Total Rebound Rate of 22% compared to Davis' 17%.

However, Davis is far better than Drummond in multiple areas. He has an assist rate that while low is still almost 400% higher than Drummond's (8% compared to 2.2%). He has a block rate that's 67% higher. Also, even though his usage was almost 10% higher (25.2% compared to 16.7%) than Drummond's his turnover rate was actually 23% lower than Drummond. This also tells us that Drummond isn't looked to on the offensive end as average usage rate would be 20%.

Drummond is the better rebounder we agree here. Davis is the better shot blocker we agree here. However Drummond had another great shot blocker on the team in Josh Smith. As far as the assist stats this is as much as a result of coaching and teammeats as it does Drummond vs Davis passing abilities. Davis not turning the ball over is a sign of his inability to create IMO.

Quote:

There are no good defensive stats available to the public so all we are left with is DRtg which they are identical in at 104 and Defensive Win Share which they are within 3/10th of a % of each other in. We are also left with the Synergy stats that say AD ranked 104th in overall defense compared to Drummond at 190th. AD allowed on overage .84 ppp on defense compared to Drummond's .88 ppp (yes that's the difference between 104th and 190th). He allowed .73ppp from Isolation compared to Drummond's .93ppp. Basically every area AD beat Drummond on defense was by 20% or more except for 1 area (he beat him by 5%). There were only 2 areas Drummond was better on the defensive end and by were both better by less than 5%.

Again synergy should not be used to inconsistent.

Quote:

What we have here is overall Davis is the clearly the more skilled offensive player, who even though he takes more shots because of his FT % he actually has a shooting % within 1% of someone who takes over 80% of his shots within 3ft of the basket. When you combine that with Davis' advantage in multiple areas including assists, blocks, turnovers, and defense it's clear that Davis is and will be the better player. It would take Davis regressing and Drummond progressing for the two to be considered even much less Drummond as better.

This is bad logic because you are comparing a guy that was pretty much option #1 with plays drawn up for him to option #4 guy with plays rarely drawn for him. Then saying well since option #1 guys has better stats he is the better skilled player.

Now someone might argue "the eye test, the eye test" but there is no way any eye test will overcome the overwhelming amount of stats that point to Davis being the better player. And besides, in my eye test Davis is better. Don't believe my eyes? Here's Detroit fans before a game in Jan weighing in on the issue - Spoiler - They choose Davis.

Here's an ESPN Insider article from Jan that breaks down both players. Advantage Davis by a mile.

Sure that was last year though, what about the potential for next year? Remember, Drummond is in a situation with a new coach and possibly Monroe or Smith being moved, while Davis gets both Jrue and Ryan Anderson back and adding Asik. Monty has already stated that AD will be the No. 1 option on the team multiple times.

Drummond has shown nothing other than he sits under the basket or cuts toward the basket for put backs and dunks. The thought that he has the ability to be a No. 1 option based off of stats OR eye test is crazy. He simply hasn't shown it in any facet. Also, his FT% is so horrible that he won't be able to even stay in games as the No. 1 option late. Put into perspective Dwight Howard's LOWEST FT % season was 8% HIGHER than Drummond's HIGHEST season. Heck, Shaq's LOWEST FT% season was 5% higher than Drummond's HIGHEST. On average Shaq shot 13% higher than Drummond from FT.

This is not a person who will be a No. 1 option. And the projection that if he increases his offensive attempts he will be better offensively is not necessarily true. He could just as easily get worse offensively with increased attempts. Even Dwight's highest % of attempts from within 3ft season was still over 15% less attempts than Drummond has averaged. Shaw averaged 53% of his offense within 3ft of the basket. That's 27% less than Drummond. As a no. 1 option teams will just pack the paint and make it impossible for Drummond to do anything. Take him out of 3ft of the basket and his numbers TANK.

And as I've already pointed out, Davis is already better than Drummond on Defense. As he adds size and weight he will just get better.

It's not even close.[/QUOTE]
09-03-2014, 07:45 PM
Mythrol

So let me see if I have this right. Synergy, the website that actual teams use is too inconsistent for your esteemed evaluations? Come on. Your attempt of trying to undermine stats to protect your theory is just silly. They ALL show Davis not only more skilled but with a much larger array of offensive skills. To me this shows your biggest bias because you refuse to acknowledge that over 56% of Drummond's offense came from two players types or that 81% came from 4. AD shows MUCH greater skill on the offensive end. If you cannot acknowledge this simple fact, yes fact, then I can't see any further discussion.

The 2% bias that you were trying to claim is irrelevant. My point wasn't that AD was 2% better. It was that FROM EVERY RANGE he was better. Period. Even from within 3ft where Drummond takes over 80% of his shots, AD was better.

Davis not turning the ball over means he can't create? I'm sorry but, wtf? How does that correlate? No. Davis not turning the ball over means he's MORE EFFICIENT. I've already posted the numbers for isolation, spot-up, and multiple other areas.

I also don't understand the assist argument. The coach told Drummond to not pass the ball? No. Drummond doesn't get assists because his entire offensive game is based around cuts to the basket and put backs.

I see you also glossed over Drummond's FT shooting which was one of my main points about why he won't be better than Davis this coming season.

Davis was more versatile on offense, better from EVERY range, had multiple areas of attempts showing his ability to score no matter the situation. He has the better defensive stats, better passing, blocking, turnovers, he played with a team of scrubs yet somehow was able to assist 400% more than Drummond.

Drummond hasn't shown you ability to play outside of 3 ft. He's a far worse ft shooter than other possible comparable big men. His inability to make FTs limits him extremely late in games and shows his lack of ability to extend his range beyond 3ft. It also shows he will not be able to be a No. 1 option on a team because he has no offensive game, or ability to punish people for fouling him. His lack of usage when increased doesn't indicate he will become more efficient, it will mean that once / if he becomes a focal point of the offense that teams can easily negate him. Push him outside of 3ft and he has shown he can't give you anything.

He is Asik with less TOs but worse rebounding and FT shooting.

My offer for a bet still stands and I can't wait to resurrect this thread come year's end.
09-03-2014, 08:26 PM
saintsinNO

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmcuc

You say you don't care yet you continue to call him out. Very contradicting. No need to be so hostile. I just don't believe in people taking heat for having a difference in opinion.

This makes no sense. No one is getting irate or losing sleep, you are making it that way with hyperbole simply because some choose to engage a person who they feel is obviously wrong. You are the one talking about things completely off subject. You are contradicting yourself. "Don't let anyone on the internet bother you enough to continue to respond to them," yet you continue to respond to people who let things on the internet bother them? USING ALL CAPS NO LESS?! You are contradicting yourself, not Mythrol.

Same as with MM, if you don't want to engage then don't, but there is nothing wrong with people calling the guy out.

The guy is obviously wrong and way off base and everyone can clearly see that now because people choose to call him out.
09-03-2014, 08:46 PM
jdmcuc

Quote:

Originally Posted by saintsinNO

This makes no sense. No one is getting irate or losing sleep, you are making it that way with hyperbole simply because some choose to engage a person who they feel is obviously wrong. You are the one talking about things completely off subject. You are contradicting yourself. "Don't let anyone on the internet bother you enough to continue to respond to them," yet you continue to respond to people who let things on the internet bother them? USING ALL CAPS NO LESS?! You are contradicting yourself, not Mythrol.

Same as with MM, if you don't want to engage then don't, but there is nothing wrong with people calling the guy out.

The guy is obviously wrong and way off base and everyone can clearly see that now because people choose to call him out.

I wasn't bothered. I found it funny that he wanted to place a large amount of money over something that was said online. How am I contradicting myself? Yes, it is fine to debate but what's the need to call someone a troll just because they have a difference in opinion? Even if I don't agree with him.
09-03-2014, 09:15 PM
wuggie

I've accepted DaThrone's opinion as much as this team name, colors, and jersey's lol in other words you can't change it, so the only thing you can do is accept it and keep it moving. You don't have to like but you what else your gonna do about it? Even if we managed to change it, what would we get out it honestly? :huh:He's a fan just like everyone of us, let him be or ignore him if he bothers you this much.
09-03-2014, 09:34 PM
jdmcuc

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuggie

I've accepted DaThrone's opinion as much as this team name, colors, and jersey's lol in other words you can't change it, so the only thing you can do is accept it and keep it moving. You don't have to like but you what else your gonna do about it? Even if we managed to change it, what would we get out it honestly? :huh:He's a fan just like everyone of us, let him be or ignore him if he bothers you this much.

Exactly
09-03-2014, 09:38 PM
saintsinNO

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdmcuc

I wasn't bothered. I found it funny that he wanted to place a large amount of money over something that was said online. How am I contradicting myself? Yes, it is fine to debate but what's the need to call someone a troll just because they have a difference in opinion? Even if I don't agree with him.

He doesn't simply have a difference of opinion. Not sure how much you read on here, but the guy is constantly saying outlandish things with no support. He is a troll. People have offered to hear him out over and over again, but he has yet to offer anything in the way of objective support for his opinions. He does it to be different or he is missing the area of the brain that controls reasoning. The guy is a troll.

As for the contradiction, you, and others, have the opinion of 'if it's on the internet let it go and don't engage...yada yada,' yet you seem to take issue with others on the internet addressing it how they see fit. Just as what you say with Da Throne, if you don't like it or find it dumb then just keep it moving. But you are addressing something petty on the internet just like he is. Nothing wrong with calling out a troll.
09-03-2014, 09:47 PM
jdmcuc

Quote:

Originally Posted by saintsinNO

He doesn't simply have a difference of opinion. Not sure how much you read on here, but the guy is constantly saying outlandish things with no support. He is a troll. People have offered to hear him out over and over again, but he has yet to offer anything in the way of objective support for his opinions. He does it to be different or he is missing the area of the brain that controls reasoning. The guy is a troll.

As for the contradiction, you, and others, have the opinion of 'if it's on the internet let it go and don't engage...yada yada,' yet you seem to take issue with others on the internet addressing it how they see fit. Just as what you say with Da Throne, if you don't like it or find it dumb then just keep it moving. But you are addressing something petty on the internet just like he is. Nothing wrong with calling out a troll.

Not sure how you define troll, Ive come to know it as someone how deliberately stirs to cause trouble. So if he's a troll, he's getting exactly what he's come for when you react the way you do. To me he just has a difference in opinion, and from my observation, a lot of people are almost getting mad.

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