Burke "I"m hearing between #2 and #6"

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Originally Posted by MonsterMash

Nobody goes "all" defense. Demps and Williams came from San Antonio. Tony Parker isn't anyone's idea of a great defender. But they've got enough inside and on the wings to stop people while Parker drives the offense.

Not breaking news, but: we need a guard or wing capable of driving the offense to a high level.

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This is exactly why I want us to draft Burke so badly. This offense needs a huge shot in the arm and Burke could be that.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Folks just hearing what they want to hear.

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Cmon, you have to be parody posting at this point. Literally describes every Burke lover on this board. Unreal.


His D is not good, and likely will never be. He lacks the fluidity and footwork, and won't be able to compensate with his size. You are in love with the guy though, so of course you'll believe anything to justify it. And Ryno's D is serviceable and is much easier to compensate for than your main perimeter ball hawk.

Are you watching the East finals right now? DWest looks like a good defender (lulz) out there due to the perimeter guys hounding the ball. Exactly where Burke will struggle. Same thing with Memphis and Randolph. You can hide a mediocre post defender, not a bad PG though.

Exhibit A: Greivis Vazquez, the single biggest reason our D was so bad this year. Replacing him with Burke is a mostly lateral move IMO.

But then again, CP3 is the most overrated defender of a generation so I suppose it doesn't matter to people especially on this board. Except that the Clips D cost them a chance this year, and CP was the main culprit. Dude is a turnstile that gambles and gets steals.

Jameer Nelson 2.0, sorry folks. I like him, but he'll be good not great. And definitely a poor fit for this team.

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Originally Posted by Ogden Park

Cmon, you have to be parody posting at this point. Literally describes every Burke lover on this board. Unreal.


His D is not good, and likely will never be. He lacks the fluidity and footwork, and won't be able to compensate with his size. You are in love with the guy though, so of course you'll believe anything to justify it. And Ryno's D is serviceable and is much easier to compensate for than your main perimeter ball hawk.

Are you watching the East finals right now? DWest looks like a good defender (lulz) out there due to the perimeter guys hounding the ball. Exactly where Burke will struggle. Same thing with Memphis and Randolph. You can hide a mediocre post defender, not a bad PG though.

Exhibit A: Greivis Vazquez, the single biggest reason our D was so bad this year. Replacing him with Burke is a mostly lateral move IMO.

But then again, CP3 is the most overrated defender of a generation so I suppose it doesn't matter to people especially on this board. Except that the Clips D cost them a chance this year, and CP was the main culprit. Dude is a turnstile that gambles and gets steals.

Jameer Nelson 2.0, sorry folks. I like him, but he'll be good not great. And definitely a poor fit for this team.

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You're wrong. We will be able to find other perimeter defenders on the expensive free agent market. Tony Parker isn't a world beater defensively, but we will be able to find interior defenders like SA has to make up for that...again through trades and free agency. So really dude, it doesn't matter if we address our pressing needs defensively because we have mucho dinero to spend and lots of quality trade assets that we will be able to use to make our team better defensively. We do not need waste our valuable lottery pick on a defensive presence. We need to SCORE MORE.

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Originally Posted by Ogden Park

Cmon, you have to be parody posting at this point. Literally describes every Burke lover on this board. Unreal.


His D is not good, and likely will never be. He lacks the fluidity and footwork, and won't be able to compensate with his size. You are in love with the guy though, so of course you'll believe anything to justify it. And Ryno's D is serviceable and is much easier to compensate for than your main perimeter ball hawk.

Are you watching the East finals right now? DWest looks like a good defender (lulz) out there due to the perimeter guys hounding the ball. Exactly where Burke will struggle. Same thing with Memphis and Randolph. You can hide a mediocre post defender, not a bad PG though.

Exhibit A: Greivis Vazquez, the single biggest reason our D was so bad this year. Replacing him with Burke is a mostly lateral move IMO.

But then again, CP3 is the most overrated defender of a generation so I suppose it doesn't matter to people especially on this board. Except that the Clips D cost them a chance this year, and CP was the main culprit. Dude is a turnstile that gambles and gets steals.

Jameer Nelson 2.0, sorry folks. I like him, but he'll be good not great. And definitely a poor fit for this team.

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There is definitely a parody going on here. You already were dead set on MontyDell only wanting defensive players. Basketball players have to go both ways. It's not football there guy. They signed Ryno, who plays starter minutes, and drafted Rivers mainly for that reason...OFFENSE.

Secondly, there is nothing to indicate that Burke is as awful a defender as you keep trying to point out. Basketball is also a team sport and the Pelicans preach team defense. If anything, what separates Burke and GV is Burke is quick enough and has the basketball savvy to play the passing lanes. He stole the ball repeatedly in the tournament by doing just that. He is simply not this horrid, GV equivalent defender you keep making him out to be.

How long will you hold on to this MontyDell defense only meme no mater how much it can be proven wrong?

I'm hearing Burke will go between picks 1 and 60.

Sorry Tray.

Also, if you can score more on offense and be efficient, that alone helps your defense. Getting beat in transition becomes less of a problem.

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Originally Posted by Pelicans78

I'm hearing Burke will go between picks 1 and 60.

Sorry Tray.

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No source, no quotes!

If all people are concerned with is offense and want to ignore defense why are we even talking about Burke? CJMc is the best scorer in the draft and Bazz is better than Burke offensively, both should be there when we pick.

There's more to offense than scoring. Burke ability to get himself shots is on par with his ability to get others shots and a feel for the game when to do either or.

And when did Burke become an awful defender? Highly inconsistent absolutely. However when he's dialed in he was a very good defender many times just taking the ball away from opposing ball handlers.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

If all people are concerned with is offense and want to ignore defense why are we even talking about Burke? CJMc is the best scorer in the draft and Bazz is better than Burke offensively, both should be there when we pick.

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Burke is the better floor general at this point. There are arguments for each player really, but i understand why people would rather Burke.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

There's more to offense than scoring. Burke ability to get himself shots is on par with his ability to get others shots and a feel for the game when to do either or.

And when did Burke become an awful defender? Highly inconsistent absolutely. However when he's dialed in he was a very good defender many times just taking the ball away from opposing ball handlers.

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He was a poor defender, rarely stopped people from getting in the paint, when he's dialed in he plays the passing lanes well, but in no way was he ever a very good defender.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

There's more to offense than scoring. Burke ability to get himself shots is on par with his ability to get others shots and a feel for the game when to do either or.

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I agree. CJMCC and Bazz both add more than just scoring too. Both are above average rebounders for their position and CJMCC "can" be a good distributor but he had to carry his team.

The other thing CJMCC has is he was the entire focus of the opposing teams defense his senior year and he was still able to lead the nation in scoring before his injury.

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Originally Posted by ItsPaulyP

He was a poor defender, rarely stopped people from getting in the paint, when he's dialed in he plays the passing lanes well, but in no way was he ever a very good defender.

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Agreed. He has a lot to prove defensively.

So did Rivers. And for that matter, has there ever been a defender that came into the league out of high school or college able to guard seasoned NBA players? Tony Allen didn't come on until he'd been in the league a few years. So did Avery Bradley.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

So did Rivers. And for that matter, has there ever been a defender that came into the league out of high school or college able to guard seasoned NBA players? Tony Allen didn't come on until he'd been in the league a few years. So did Avery Bradley.

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Duncan, but a 4 year guy.

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Originally Posted by ItsPaulyP

He was a poor defender, rarely stopped people from getting in the paint, when he's dialed in he plays the passing lanes well, but in no way was he ever a very good defender.

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He would ripped ball handlers not just playing the passing lane. Again you are entitled to your opinions, but Trey even commented that GM's noticed his ability to play defense occassionally.

He didn't have a problem guarding Michael Carter-Williams, Payton Siva, or Russ Smith. Too much is being made of his defensive production. There's a problem without a doubt, but saying he can't guard people is overblown.

If Trey Burke was putting out defensive effort to the same level Anthony Bennett puts effort into guarding on defense I'd be extremely concerned.

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Originally Posted by Imnos 2

a lotto pick and 2 second round picks

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Who's going to pull the trigger on this? The only thing that'll get a top 5 team to budge is a move that would get Detroit's GM fired probably.

FWIW, I asked Matt Moore (one of the best NBA analysts around) on twitter

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Michael Hart ‏@MichaelHart912 25 May
@HPbasketball What are your thoughts on Trey Burke and how he would fit with the #Pelicans?

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and this was his response:

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Hardwood Paroxysm ‏@HPbasketball 25 May
@MichaelHart912 perfectly. That's who I want them to take.

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Is everyone sure that the Pelicans want to draft Burke, or is that what most of the fans on this site want?

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Originally Posted by smcgull

Is everyone sure that the Pelicans want to draft Burke, or is that what most of the fans on this site want?

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There's been some guys who tout inside connections that believe there's no way we draft him. But in truth, no one really knows what they want. Monty or Dell would never come out and say who they want. We'll hear rumors...but those are not worth the grain of salt you take it with.

I'm pretty sure that Dell will pick the player that he feels can be an offensive play-maker while also having the tools to be at least an average defender. If that kind of player is even still available at our draft pick.

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Originally Posted by Kibner

I'm pretty sure that Dell will pick the player that he feels can be an offensive play-maker while also having the tools to be at least an average defender. If that kind of player is even still available at our draft pick.

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Hard to say right now. No one outside of the team has any clue what position they're looking at. We don't even have an idea of whether the emphasis on the pick will be offensive minded or defensive minded. I still think the emphasis will be on size but that's just me.

Sources tell the Times-Picayune that the Pelicans like the idea of pairing Michigan PG Trey Burke with Greivis Vasquez.
The Hornets hold the No. 6 overall pick in June's draft. If they think Vasquez is capable of playing the shooting guard spot, they can try to trade Eric Gordon and target Burke in the draft. They also have Austin Rivers, last year's disappointing No. 10 pick, on the roster. Still, the bigger hole for the Pelicans is at small forward, where starter Al-Farouq Aminu is a free agent.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/2122/trey-burke

Also of note:
NBA teams are testing Lehigh G C.J. McCollum to see if he can play point guard.
If McCollum can shed a tweener label, he could rocket up as high as the top-5. He measured in at 6'3/197 at the Combine, which would be an asset at the point guard spot. The problem is that he never played the position in college, failing to ever top 3.5 assists per game. Of course, Damien Lillard was a similarly high-scoring guard from a small school that never averaged more than 4.5 assists in college. He won Rookie of the Year honors this season while dishing out 6.5 assists.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nba/2135/cj-mccollum


I'm really starting to be ok with Burke. I'm still partial to Porter and Oladipo but I can get on the Burke train too.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

There's been some guys who tout inside connections that believe there's no way we draft him. But in truth, no one really knows what they want. Monty or Dell would never come out and say who they want. We'll hear rumors...but those are not worth the grain of salt you take it with.

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agreed, if u go look at the advanced stats burke is a far better defender than lillard was in college vs even worse compeititon, lillards sophmore year he had a defensive rating of 105 compared to burke's 99, even lillards senior year he only had a 101 rating

burke also had more win shares than bledsoe, lillard and mccollum

how would yall feel about drafting burke, trading GV for a late first round pick and possibly drafting steven adams, gobbert or dieng and then signing martel webster and budinger and this lineup:

Burke/Roberts
Gordon/Rivers
Budinger/Webster
AD/Ryno
Lopez/Adams, gobbert, dieng

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

agreed, if u go look at the advanced stats burke is a far better defender than lillard was in college vs even worse compeititon, lillards sophmore year he had a defensive rating of 105 compared to burke's 99, even lillards senior year he only had a 101 rating

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But Lillard played on a worse defensive team which hurts his defensive rating. Burke's D-Rating was lower than his team's rating meaning the defense was worse while he was on the floor. I think both are similar defenders. Lillard better as a score. Burke is better as a passer. But both are similar. I could see Burke starting right away. Just like Porter.

drtg just needs to not exist as an individual player stat. It is worse than useless in that context because it makes so many people come to the wrong conclusion about a player's defensive impact.

You can kind of use it when comparing against other players in the same lineup, but it won't make much sense even then. The best defensive player on a poor defensive team can be put on the best offensive player for the other team which can cause his drtg to be the lowest. Or, the worst defensive player on a team can be put on the worst offensive player on another and then have the best drtg on a team.

Using individual player drtg effectively requires so much more context than any of us would want to take the time to create. Using it on a lineup basis and seeing the difference one lineup has on opposing lineups during minutes they are on the floor together would be a much better use of the stat.

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Originally Posted by Kibner

drtg just needs to not exist as an individual player stat. It is worse than useless in that context because it makes so many people come to the wrong conclusion about a player's defensive impact.

You can kind of use it when comparing against other players in the same lineup, but it won't make much sense even then. The best defensive player on a poor defensive team can be put on the best offensive player for the other team which can cause his drtg to be the lowest. Or, the worst defensive player on a team can be put on the worst offensive player on another and then have the best drtg on a team.

Using individual player drtg effectively requires so much more context than any of us would want to take the time to create. Using it on a lineup basis and seeing the difference one lineup has on opposing lineups during minutes they are on the floor together would be a much better use of the stat.

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very good post

also when burke has to be the man for michigan and he knows it, its hard to play 100% defense when u know ur gonna have to give it ur all on offense, reading the D, running the pick and roll, making good passes, its physically and mentally exhausting, maybe with gordon and davis he could be more efficient.

lol in chad ford's new big board he made a lot of changes, funny thing is he has 6 people projected as top 5 picks lol, anyway his new top 10 is

noel
oladipo
porter
mclemore
bennett
burke
mcw
mcollum
len
zeller

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Originally Posted by Kibner

drtg just needs to not exist as an individual player stat. It is worse than useless in that context because it makes so many people come to the wrong conclusion about a player's defensive impact.

You can kind of use it when comparing against other players in the same lineup, but it won't make much sense even then. The best defensive player on a poor defensive team can be put on the best offensive player for the other team which can cause his drtg to be the lowest. Or, the worst defensive player on a team can be put on the worst offensive player on another and then have the best drtg on a team.

Using individual player drtg effectively requires so much more context than any of us would want to take the time to create. Using it on a lineup basis and seeing the difference one lineup has on opposing lineups during minutes they are on the floor together would be a much better use of the stat.

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Was about to post the same thing after reading Guru's comments.

Actually, DRTG is practically useless in terms of evaluating a player's defensive ability. The main use of DRTG isn't as a measure of defensive ability but of defensive performance (two totally differing ability). You can have great defensive ability but perform badly on defense because of several factors (awful teammates, bad team gameplan). Conversely you can perform well on defense even if your defensive ability is not good (teammates cleaning up mistakes for you). This is because DRTG has an underlying assumption of "equality" among teammates (in terms of some non-box score stats but of defensive score sheet) which paves way for the inclusion of "team DRTG" into the equation. Clearly this is not true. The presence of LARRY SANDERS! (as an example) makes perimeter players from attacking the basket creating the allusion that a specific perimeter player is good, when in fact, his effect on the defense is very little.

As Kibner said, individually, DRTG is useless. It's main purpose (well for me), is for it to bring it back to the team level. Win Share is a product of this (distributing wins among player's offensive and defensive performance). Putting lineup combinations are another (whether that's 2,3,4 or 5 man rotation). So don't use DRTG as an argument to say that "Player A is better than Player B, defensively because of DRTG".

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

how would yall feel about drafting burke, trading GV for a late first round pick and possibly drafting steven adams, gobbert or dieng and then signing martel webster and budinger and this lineup:

Burke/Roberts
Gordon/Rivers
Budinger/Webster
AD/Ryno
Lopez/Adams, gobbert, dieng

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Love it except I think we can purchase a late pick like Gobert, Adams or Dieng.
Also I think Smith has to fit in there somewhere as well as Miller.

Burke/Vasquez/Roberts
Gordon/Rivers/Miller
Budinger/Webster/Miller
Davis/Anderson/Smith
Lopez/Smith/Gobert

Then trade Vasquez, Roberts or Lopez at the deadline if something appeals.

Hornetguru, you know you can edit your posts and add info instead of posting 3-4 times in a row, right?

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Hornetguru, you know you can edit your posts and add info instead of posting 3-4 times in a row, right?

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But you get 3-4 posts instead of 1.

When I watch Burke his biggest issue on defense is defending the PnR. His technique is awful. He essentially sets himself up to be screened. I think it's something that's correctable. His energy output on that end was sub par. I haven't noticed a significant lack of quickness.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

When I watch Burke his biggest issue on defense is defending the PnR. His technique is awful. He essentially sets himself up to be screened. I think it's something that's correctable. His energy output on that end was sub par. I haven't noticed a significant lack of quickness.

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I think that really can be attributed to having to go 1000 mph on offense at all times with that Michigan team. I think that mindset along with the PnR problem are correctable with Monty here.

As for Guru's lineup there, it's basically what I want to do as well. I think Miller is ready to be a full time backup and a late round pick can easily be bought in this draft without forcing GV out when his value is so high, he's worth more than a late round first.

Burke/GV (until a move is made)
Gordon/Rivers
Brewer or Webster/Miller
AD/Anderson/Smith
Lopez/Smith/Adams

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Originally Posted by endlessHIMdark

Sources tell the Times-Picayune that the Pelicans like the idea of pairing Michigan PG Trey Burke with Greivis Vasquez.
The Hornets hold the No. 6 overall pick in June's draft. If they think Vasquez is capable of playing the shooting guard spot, they can try to trade Eric Gordon and target Burke in the draft.

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This would be horrible.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Hornetguru, you know you can edit your posts and add info instead of posting 3-4 times in a row, right?

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yes i do know that but everytime i hit edit it wouldnt come up so something was either wrong with my ipad or the server, all it would let me do is do a new post.

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze

I think that really can be attributed to having to go 1000 mph on offense at all times with that Michigan team. I think that mindset along with the PnR problem are correctable with Monty here.

As for Guru's lineup there, it's basically what I want to do as well. I think Miller is ready to be a full time backup and a late round pick can easily be bought in this draft without forcing GV out when his value is so high, he's worth more than a late round first.

Burke/GV (until a move is made)
Gordon/Rivers
Brewer or Webster/Miller
AD/Anderson/Smith
Lopez/Smith/Adams

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exactly, imagine in 2 years if we could luck out and draft someone like jabari parker, i know its a big if but:

burke/roberts
gordon/rivers
parker/brewer/miller
davis/ryno
adams/lopez

Drafting 19yrs old kids is not going to help us get to the playoffs in the next of couple of years. We also need veterans on the roster to teach the young pups how to win in the NBA.

Looking at some of the proposed Pelican lineups, does the concensus of the posters here feel that we will retain Gordon or trade him?

Does Eric still want to be here?

Sorry, a little new at posting on this site. Been here a while but mostly read (and enjoy) posts since basketball is not my forte.

Thanks.

davehornet (I know, I have to change the name)

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Originally Posted by davehornet

Looking at some of the proposed Pelican lineups, does the concensus of the posters here feel that we will retain Gordon or trade him?

Does Eric still want to be here?

Sorry, a little new at posting on this site. Been here a while but mostly read (and enjoy) posts since basketball is not my forte.

Thanks.

davehornet (I know, I have to change the name)

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i personally think we give him until the trade deadline to prove himself after having a full off season, if he doesnt perform then he's traded hopefully for a draft pick in next years loaded draft, it has all kinds of SF's and SG's we could really luck out.

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Chad Ford ‏@chadfordinsider 58m
Draft Rumor Blog: What will Cavs do with No. 1 pick? Magic's top PG target is not Trey Burke, more ... http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog/...r-draft-rumors … (insider)

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..

I read that too Fly, but i don't have insider. Anyone know if it says who is?

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Originally Posted by All Metro

This would be horrible.

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Yeah the only role I want GV in is backup point guard. As a 2 he still has a quickness issue now you just take away his height advantage.

It was mentioned on this board that they would like to let GV play spot up 3. Where this 2 talk comes from is new to me.

Despite their need at point guard, sources say the Magic aren't sold on Trey Burke as the second-best player in the draft. While they certainly haven't ruled out Burke with the No. 2 pick, Orlando is also eyeing Indiana's Victor Oladipo and Kansas' Ben McLemore. However, Oladipo and McLemore play the same position as Arron Afflalo, the Magic's leading scorer last season. ESPN.com



Sources say the Magic have a lot of interest in Clippers point guard Eric Bledsoe and would be willing to trade Afflalo for Bledsoe and Caron Butler's expiring contract. ESPN.com