Is Vasquez the long term answer?

Teague's an upgrade but it's a marginal upgrade at best.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Teague's an upgrade but it's a marginal upgrade at best.

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We're not a marginal upgrade from contending. It's better to focus on major upgrades (almost anyone else at SF and backup PG/SG).

I can be content with vasquez if other roster moves are made. I really only see two players on this team that may perform well in the playoffs in 2-3 years: Davis and Gordon. That isn't going to win very many games come crunch time.

I didn't say we should go after Teague, but I agree. I've said in the past I'm more than ok with going into next season with Greivis as a starter if it means we didn't rush into finding another guy. SF should be priority #1.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Teague's an upgrade but it's a marginal upgrade at best.

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I'm glad we agree.

Didn't know where to put this. I can't wait to have this guy on the team! B. Jennings for the gametying three last night!!!





http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2142449/nope.gif

This is a thing of beauty !!! The proof of high basketball IQ ! ^^

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Here's my list of PG's I would take over Greivis over a two year period (in no particular order):

1. Tony Parker- sure
2. Mike Conley- questionable
3. Jeremy Lin- ha
4. Chris Paul- yes
5. Jrue Holiday-yes
6. Kyrie Irving- yes
7. Russell Westbrook-yes
8. Rajon Rondo-not sure due to injury. If he doesn't recover as well, and loses a step, that changes his game dramatically.
9. Derrick Rose- sure but injury is a concern
10. Deron Williams- sure
11. Steph Curry- sure
12. Damian Lillard- not sure. I am sure you are basing this more on potential right? if that is the case, you can look at GV's potential as well, and I can track GV longer giving me a better idea where he will be in 2 years, as opposed to a guy with a sample of games 50 games deep.
13. Brandon Jennings- would be fun to see, but push. One gives you scoring, the other gives others the opportunity to score.
14. Kyle Lowry- no, the guy is a starter and has been avg. for a starter.
15. Eric Bledsoe- no, he had the chance to start in place of CP3, and hasn't done as well as GV when given those chances to start.
16. Goran Dragic- no, dude has been a dud in phx.
17. Ty Lawson- sure
18. Jeff Teague- depending on contract. As has been pointed out, its a trade off.
19. George Hill- no, people in indy would gladly trade him for a bag of peanuts.
20. John Wall- no, guy has more talent around him than GV and has done less. I would take him in a 1 on 1 vs anyone.
21. Ricky Rubio- no, he's not exactly ripping it up right now.

That's 21 right there. And I didn't include guys like Jarrett Jack, Jose Calderon, Brandon Knight, Raymond Felton, Mario Chalmers, etc

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So of your list I would make him top 13.

I think that list is way generous to Greivis, but to each their own.

The more pertinent question is Greivis Vasquez for x salary vs. other guy for y salary. I suspect GV would take a three-year, 18 million extension this offseason. I have a feeling Teague will get around 4 years, 32-34 million. I think they're very close, and intangibles and money difference would push me to re-sign GV even if I slightly prefer Teague in a vacuum. Double that for Jennings, who will probably end up in the 11-12 range. I doesn't really matter if GV is #16 or #18 or #23, he needs to be evaluated in light of other realistic options.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

So of your list I would make him top 13.

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Some of those are highly questionable.

I hadn't even noticed you put questionable next to Conley, I don't even know what to say to that.

But it does make it obvious I'm wasting my time debating this with you when you would take Greivis over guys like Conley, Lowry, Bledsoe, Wall, or Rubio. And can't decide about guys like Rondo, Lillard, and Jennings. Again, I don't even know what to say to that, it's laughable.

And in the end, it's all conjecture and subective as to where GV "ranks".

We can all agree that it would be foolish to overpay or push too hard for a replacement for GV. That's why I'm more on the PG wagon in the draft. A Burke/Smart would be a great backup AND possible replacement after next year (which fixes two "problems"). A good pairing with AFA can be found relatively cheaply, and the rebuild continues next year while probably becoming a playoff team.

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze

And in the end, it's all conjecture and subective as to where GV "ranks".

We can all agree that it would be foolish to overpay or push too hard for a replacement for GV. That's why I'm more on the PG wagon in the draft. A Burke/Smart would be a great backup AND possible replacement after next year (which fixes two "problems"). A good pairing with AFA can be found relatively cheaply, and the rebuild continues next year while probably becoming a playoff team.

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I definitely agree with that.

And I can tell you guys right now, if the Pelicans magically land Jennings (which is what it'll take, some serious Wizard of Oz shiz) this team will win more games, but you won't see the team having as much fun on the court. And I think it has the potential to turn ugly.

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze

And I can tell you guys right now, if the Pelicans magically land Jennings (which is what it'll take, some serious Wizard of Oz shiz) this team will win more games, but you won't see the team having as much fun on the court. And I think it has the potential to turn ugly.

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I think we should save any magic we might possess for someone other than Jennings....he can be exciting, but not overly efficient at all....

That's an understatement. I don't want to be THAT team that gives him a max deal on top of the national "perception" of Pelicans. :hihi:

Jennings is Super Roberts. All the good and all the bad.

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Originally Posted by Kibner

Jennings is Super Roberts. All the good and all the bad.

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That's a GREAT simile :hihi: :2thumb2:

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Some of those are highly questionable.

I hadn't even noticed you put questionable next to Conley, I don't even know what to say to that.

But it does make it obvious I'm wasting my time debating this with you when you would take Greivis over guys like Conley, Lowry, Bledsoe, Wall, or Rubio. And can't decide about guys like Rondo, Lillard, and Jennings. Again, I don't even know what to say to that, it's laughable.

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I think we are both wasting our time. We are debating opinions and refusing to look at stats. For example if we were to use PER or something like that, our opinions would be switched as GV wouldn't be a top 20 pg but half the guys on your list would be on the wrong side of the top 20 as well.

It's opinion.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but to say you'd take Greivis over guys like Conley, Lowry, Bledsoe, Wall, and so on? You must not watch much basketball outside of this team.

What has Wall done? What has Lowery done? I can see Conley maybe as the Grizz did trade him away. Bledsoe is not better than GV and if he were he would have put up better numbers as a starter she. CP3 went down. But instead of seeing Bledsoe highlights when CP3 went down we watched ESPN say how the Clippers missed CP3.

I see you value quick pg's. that's undeniable as all these guys are quick. But these same guys get posted up by GV and their speed is neutralized when on def. he'll CP3 played lanes more than he played man defense.

Give me GV over those guys, but it's a matter of opinion. GV is getting better.

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Originally Posted by Purple Haze

And in the end, it's all conjecture and subective as to where GV "ranks".

We can all agree that it would be foolish to overpay or push too hard for a replacement for GV. That's why I'm more on the PG wagon in the draft. A Burke/Smart would be a great backup AND possible replacement after next year (which fixes two "problems"). A good pairing with AFA can be found relatively cheaply, and the rebuild continues next year while probably becoming a playoff team.

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Perfection right here. Unless we land CP3 in free agency, I'm on the draft a PG and sign a SF to replace Aminu. Attempt to resign Aminu on the cheap to pair with new SF. In a year when GV becomes a free agent we have Burke/smart that may be able to step up and take the reigns.

Next year I wouldn't be disappointed with a lineup like this:

GV/Smart or Burke/Rivers
Gordon/Rivers/Mason
New SF(middle of the road)/Aminu/Thomas
Davis/Anderson
Lopez/Smith

In a year:

Burke or Smart/Rivers
Gordon/Rivers(draft a PG/SG if Rivers still sucks.)
SF/Aminu(2014 draft projected heavy on SFs.)
Anderson/(Draft a PF)
Davis/Lopez/Smith

The options during the draft 2014 are endless if we build slowly. I do see that eventually we will need to signa big name talent to come in and support the Davis/Gordon/Anderson trio, but I'm not to impressed with the available names out there besides CP3 or Milsap(which we only go after if we beleive Davis is our starting Center)

I'm into the slow rebuild, but it makes me worry about our ability to keep Davis/Gordon/Anderson happy.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

You're entitled to your own opinion, but to say you'd take Greivis over guys like Conley, Lowry, Bledsoe, Wall, and so on? You must not watch much basketball outside of this team.

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For one season; one game perhaps, the future not in balance, would you take GV over Bledsoe?

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

What has Wall done? What has Lowery done? I can see Conley maybe as the Grizz did trade him away. Bledsoe is not better than GV and if he were he would have put up better numbers as a starter she. CP3 went down. But instead of seeing Bledsoe highlights when CP3 went down we watched ESPN say how the Clippers missed CP3.

I see you value quick pg's. that's undeniable as all these guys are quick. But these same guys get posted up by GV and their speed is neutralized when on def. he'll CP3 played lanes more than he played man defense.

Give me GV over those guys, but it's a matter of opinion. GV is getting better.

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The "what has so and so done" is one of the worst arguments out there. We can sit here all day and pick out players and say "what has he done?" because there are so many of them in the NBA. What does that statement try to prove? What has Vasquez done? What has Gordon done? What has anyone on our roster done?

And the Grizz traded Conley? What are you talking about? Conley has started 269 out of a possible 270 games for that team the past four years. Bledsoe? He put up 14, 5, 5, and 3 steals per game. Not excellent by any means, but his real plus comes in the fact that he's one of the best perimeter defenders the league has to offer.

I hate the term, but you seem to be a GV fanboy who wants to just completely ignore the fact that he's one of the worst starting defensive PG's in the league, which is what this team wants to make its name on.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

For one season; one game perhaps, the future not in balance, would you take GV over Bledsoe?

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This year? Or perhaps two years down the road?

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

This year? Or perhaps two years down the road?

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Just this year. I know the future answer lol.

Conley played very well at the beginning of the season. But now he actually plays worse than Vasquez. The guy is very limited, having similar production for years.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

Some of those are highly questionable.

I hadn't even noticed you put questionable next to Conley, I don't even know what to say to that.

But it does make it obvious I'm wasting my time debating this with you when you would take Greivis over guys like Conley, Lowry, Bledsoe, Wall, or Rubio. And can't decide about guys like Rondo, Lillard, and Jennings. Again, I don't even know what to say to that, it's laughable.

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I would take Conley over Gv in a heartbeat.

I may take Bledsoe right now over GV. Obviously his defense is way better than GV. He doesn't pass as well as GV, but he shoots from the field as well. His defense would be a tremendous upgrade.

And Conley is still better than GV.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Just this year. I know the future answer lol.

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With the way the team is constructed right now, I don't know honestly.

You have to weigh the pros and cons. They're different players.

I mean I think about the fact that this season, with Aminu and Davis as our starters, we need Greivis's scoring. But then you have to think, he's averaging 14 a game, he's not exactly efficient (43% on the year, 41% past 10, ts% of just 50) and has a high turn rate at 19. As a starter, Bledsoe is averaging 14.2 a game, shooting 41%, 52% ts%, and has a turn rate of 17.5.

Then you have to factor in the fact that Bledsoe creates extra possessions defensively and is a FAR superior defender, like I mentioned above one of the better ones in the league.

You lose Vasquez's assists but with Bledsoe you get the extra possessions, more transition opportunities (off him creating turns and just him pushing in general), and once again you allow far less points. Plus common sense tells you Greivis's assist numbers benefit from having Anderson launching from beyond the arc.

After all that, I'd take Bledsoe right now lol

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

With the way the team is constructed right now, I don't know honestly.

You have to weigh the pros and cons. They're different players.

I mean I think about the fact that this season, with Aminu and Davis as our starters, we need Greivis's scoring. But then you have to think, he's averaging 14 a game, he's not exactly efficient (43% on the year, 41% past 10, ts% of just 50) and has a high turn rate at 19. As a starter, Bledsoe is averaging 14.2 a game, shooting 41%, 52% ts%, and has a turn rate of 17.5.

Then you have to factor in the fact that Bledsoe creates extra possessions defensively and is a FAR superior defender, like I mentioned above one of the better ones in the league.

You lose Vasquez's assists but with Bledsoe you get the extra possessions, more transition opportunities (off him creating turns and just him pushing in general), and once again you allow far less points. Plus common sense tells you Greivis's assist numbers benefit from having Anderson launching from beyond the arc.

After all that, I'd take Bledsoe right now lol

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Maybe also vise versa. We have seen Anderson struggling with the second unit where he can hardly get open looks.

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Originally Posted by jacklvyn

Maybe also vise versa. We have seen Anderson struggling with the second unit where he can hardly get open looks.

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Apparently all of Vasquez's assists are simple passes to these guys.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

I would take Conley over Gv in a heartbeat.

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99% of the population agrees but it's a pipedream. :hihi:

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Originally Posted by jacklvyn

Maybe also vise versa. We have seen Anderson struggling with the second unit where he can hardly get open looks.

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I agree with that to a certain extent, but I think it has more to do with the fact that Roberts is awful. His 3p% is actually better with Rivers and Vasquez, but plummets with Roberts.

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The "what has so and so done" is one of the worst arguments out there. We can sit here all day and pick out players and say "what has he done?" because there are so many of them in the NBA. What does that statement try to prove? What has Vasquez done? What has Gordon done? What has anyone on our roster done?

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If it's such a bad idea asking "what has so and so done" why are you talking about what GV can't do? He has deficiencies but he is showing he has a lot of ability. And he is one of the worst pg's in the league? They aren't just handing out triple doubles buddy. Nash didn't get his first until 7 years in.

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the Grizz traded Conley? What are you talking about? Conley has started 269 out of a possible 270 games for that team the past four years. Bledsoe? He put up 14, 5, 5, and 3 steals per game. Not excellent by any means, but his real plus comes in the fact that he's one of the best perimeter defenders the league has to offer.

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I meant that the Grizz did trade GV away so that they could focus their energy on Conley, so I can see somebody taking Conley over GV. But even then, Conley has 5 years in the league, and up until last year people were questioning if he was a bust or not (Grizz fans, not me). GV is right on track to pass Conley's productivity. Would I take Conley right now at $7 mil a season, if I knew GV would ask for more, and he wouldn't grow more? Yes.

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I hate the term, but you seem to be a GV fanboy who wants to just completely ignore the fact that he's one of the worst starting defensive PG's in the league, which is what this team wants to make its name on.

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I am not a GV fan boy, and would gladly trade him for one of those 13 I have rated above him (from your list), but not for the other guys you have listed higher than him. I am not a "the grass is always greener on the other side" person like you are. GV is progressing. I am sorry you can't see that we are a young growing team. But most of those guys you have listed would not come in and make us any better than GV as we are still growing.

I don't think Ad is a grass is always greener type of guy. I think he looks for certain things in a PG which is why he likes those guys above GV. I personally look at some different criteria for what i would rank the PGs, but his list isnt that far off of mine.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

99% of the population agrees but it's a pipedream. :hihi:

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Oh I know lol. But someone was arguing that GV was better.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

I don't think Ad is a grass is always greener type of guy. I think he looks for certain things in a PG which is why he likes those guys above GV. I personally look at some different criteria for what i would rank the PGs, but his list isnt that far off of mine.

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What do you look for?

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

What do you look for?

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One that fits the makeup of the roster first and foremost. Fit is arguably as important as talent. Once you upgrade the glaring positions of need and your young players develop, you reaccess your team's weak points.

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Originally Posted by AD23forMVP

What do you look for?

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For a team without a top 5 guy like Lebron or Kobe I'm looking at a few factors:

-How he runs the teams. The look the feel of how he does it.
-Is he a leader of men?
- Passing
- Defense , can he stay in front of his player? If hes not a great on ball defender; Does he create extra possessions.
- Is he overly competitive
- Does he understand basketball? Does he mind getting the hockey assist or is he a guy that needs to hold it to get the statistical assist.
- is the ball movement good or does he just dribble in circles (one of GVs huge weaknesses on offense )
- does he come back with something new to his game every summer?

Watching the Knicks clippers game,
Said GV Aminu was the 5th best alley oop combo in the league at 20.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Watching the Knicks clippers game,
Said GV Aminu was the 5th best alley oop combo in the league at 20.

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Get out of here. Everyone knows GV and Aminu are garbage.

I love it when people put words in others mouths. It's just a great time all around.

Wonder how many GV and Davis has.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

Wonder how many GV and Davis has.

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Yeah same. I think GV is a good alley thrower in transition but is terrible with it off the pick and roll. It's like the p&r provides too many options for him haha.

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

Wonder how many GV and Davis has.

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Not too many probably.

I'd guess that GV isn't comfortable with that "over-the-shoulder" pick and roll alley that we all complain that he misses a lot. It would be great if Greivis can work on that over the summer (if he's still here).

Most of his oops to Aminu are quite impressive...quarter court to half court in length sometimes. But most of those are forward passes...he seems to be confident and accurate with those.

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Originally Posted by BallSoHard

Yeah same. I think GV is a good alley thrower in transition but is terrible with it off the pick and roll. It's like the p&r provides too many options for him haha.

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It's a lack of chemistry IMO. Vasquez has no problems throwing oops to Aminu in the half court set. Vasquez doesn't have a good feel for Davis right now. Some oops are too high, far out, or too slow. Vasquez does try to get the ball to him often but it hasn't worked out. The attempts are there, it's going to take time for them to get a good feel for each other.

I'm watching Bledsoe play right now, he's been pretty impressive.

I hope everyone watching this clippers knicks game is realizing how much better Bledsoe is than gravy
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Originally Posted by WhoDatHornet96

I hope everyone watching this clippers knicks game is realizing how much better Bledsoe is than gravy
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Probably his best game of the season. :hihi:

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Originally Posted by WhoDatHornet96

I hope everyone watching this clippers knicks game is realizing how much better Bledsoe is than gravy
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Bledsoe rarely has to run the offense with Billups/ Paul/ Crawford so I don't think it's a very fair comparison. He is a terror on defense though. His block on amare was pretty great.

Vintage Chris Paul.