Andre Iguodala opts out

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Originally Posted by jsl05

Dwight Howard isn't exactly a leader. Plus, they just made the playoffs this year. We haven't gotten to that point yet. I'd rather save the space, allow internal improvement, and pick up our Iguodala-type player when we are ready to compete like Houston.

Still OKC didn't really have a "leader." We have Davis, Gordon, Rivers, and Anderson. We aren't as talented, but our guys are older. If the young guys in OKC didn't need a leader, then the older guys in NO shouldn't need a $15 million "leader."

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I think we agree. mostly. I don't think we will be a contender for 4 years or so, which is why I would be okay with signing Iggy in the meantime to make us better and help the young guys. Then, when they are in their prime, he comes off the books and we add the over the top pieces

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Originally Posted by Bee-Fense

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2012/0723...er2_cr_576.jpg

Look who's sitting together :love2:

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HAH! Perfect!

Also, remember the Team USA video? When AD was shooting 3s, who was next to him giving him bro grief? Iggy.

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Originally Posted by wuggie

G
Geesh. His defense and intangibles, that's what I meant lol

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they have stats for defense, lots of them in fact
which ones do you like?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

There are already tons of young vets on this team, thought - Gordon, Anderson, Lopez, Vasquez, Smith, etc. You bring in another Tyreke Evans or Martell Webster or Corey Brewer, and that is nice and all in theory, but who is the leader of that team? Who do the guys look to after a three game losing streak? Who plays the role of buffer between Monty's wrath and the young players?

All that stuff really matters. One day AD will have to be that guy, but how is he going to learn to be that guy without a role model to draw from? Again, I dont think the Pelicans have a chance at being a contender in AD's first contract, and some probably disagree with that. I think these next 3-4 years are about his growth, in multiple areas. He will grow by playing in important games and by being in a culture that expects to win and hates to lose.

Those things will be important in year 6 or 7 when he is a top 3 player in the league, and Iggy will be well off the books by then.

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If it's a 3-year deal I'm on board, even if you nearly max it out. You have to spend your cap somewhere, and he'd be as good a guy as any, with his deal expiring before we have to settle up with AD.

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Originally Posted by cgrand

they have stats for defense, lots of them in fact
which ones do you like?

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He was part of the team that won the most games in franchise history. He also averaged 18/8/5/2 on 50% shooting and 48% 3FG in the playoffs. He might not be a star that you're envisioning and probably not worth what he'll receive this year but he's a very good player who can impact the game in a number of ways.

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Originally Posted by MonsterMash

If it's a 3-year deal I'm on board, even if you nearly max it out. You have to spend your cap somewhere, and he'd be as good a guy as any, with his deal expiring before we have to settle up with AD.

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Exactly my thinking to a 'T'. If it is four years, he would have to take drastically less per year from me to agree to it. But three years makes us a young team with a very vet for the next three years. We win a playoff series or two or three, AD, Rivers, and [insert 2013 draft pick] develop while Gordon either learnds from Iggy and steps his game and attitude up or gets shipped out. Then, in the summer of 2016, we have a ton of cap room with AD, Rivers, and 2013-16 picks still on their rookie deals. Sign one or two guys, then AD's max deal kicks in and we are good to go.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

He was part of the team that won the most games in franchise history. He also averaged 18/8/5/2 on 50% shooting and 48% 3FG. He might not be a star that you're envisioning and probably not worth what he'll receive this year but he's a very good player who can impact the game in a number of ways.

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those are stats (offense stats)
you said stats dont tell the story of iguodala's impact
now you are using stats to tell the story of iguodala's impact
what's worse, the stats you are using to tell the story of his impact are inaccurate

here are his actual stats

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...iguodan01.html

18/8/5/2 @ 50/48 would be max contract stats

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Originally Posted by cgrand

those are stats (offense stats)
you said stats dont tell the story of iguodala's impact
now you are using stats to tell the story of iguodala's impact
what's worse, the stats you are using to tell the story of his impact are inaccurate

here are his actual stats

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...iguodan01.html

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I didn't say anything about his defensive stats. I said he's clearly better than what you claim he is.

sorry got you confused with wuggie, cause you responded to my question to him
your stats are still wrong

why is he better that what i claim he is?
what did i claim he was, by the way?

Iggy second behing only Lebron in APG from the small forward position (5.4 per game)

If the plan is to share the ball and not have any ball dominant guys; let Gordon run the offense at times, Rivers at times, play GV off the ball more, etc. - then Iggy is an ideal fit as a guy who can keep the ball moving and make plays for others.

On the defensive end, he was elite in isolation situations, very good almost everywhere else.

He wouldn't just be a $12-15 million leader, he would be a very nice piece that fits in several ways on the court and in the locker room.

He is not a perfect fit, but again, show me the perfect free agent that will agree to come here for the exact price you want to pay him and we can all stop talking about the less than ideal options.

I think it's important to point out that Iguodala addresses almost all major needs for us

Perimeter defense? Check
Offense playmaking? Check
Veteran leadership? Check
Someone to push the ball on the break? Check
Forcing turnovers on D? Check

Also this is a very good article explaining how significant his impact is on defense. Worth a look.

http://www.denverstiffs.com/2013/2/2...ive-specialist

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Iggy second behing only Lebron in APG from the small forward position (5.4 per game)

If the plan is to share the ball and not have any ball dominant guys; let Gordon run the offense at times, Rivers at times, play GV off the ball more, etc. - then Iggy is an ideal fit as a guy who can keep the ball moving and make plays for others.

On the defensive end, he was elite in isolation situations, very good almost everywhere else.

He wouldn't just be a $12-15 million leader, he would be a very nice piece that fits in several ways on the court and in the locker room.

He is not a perfect fit, but again, show me the perfect free agent that will agree to come here for the exact price you want to pay him and we can all stop talking about the less than ideal options.

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all of that makes him the most desirable of the "available" FA's
he's either going to max years with denver or max dollars somewhere else

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Originally Posted by cgrand

sorry got you confused with wuggie, cause you responded to my question to him
your stats are still wrong

why is he better that what i claim he is?
what did i claim he was, by the way?

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When you brought winshares to the table. DWS is a flawed stat that doesn't realisitically measure a player's defensive impact or capacity.

Iggy's a top 3 perimeter defender in the league. He'd be a pretty massive lift for us.

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Originally Posted by Nola Hornet

When you brought winshares to the table. DWS is a flawed stat that doesn't realisitically measure a player's defensive impact or capacity.

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never mentioned DWS specifically
i mentioned WS & WS/48
you are free to feel that they are flawed

not nearly as flawed as the fact that iguodala didnt really average 18/8/5/2 at 50/48, however

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Originally Posted by MonsterMash

Iggy's a top 3 perimeter defender in the league. He'd be a pretty massive lift for us.

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If I am hearing the detractors correctly, though, that is a fear of theirs. He makes us good enough to be a fringe playoff team, but not a contender. Therefore, "average" draft picks but no real chance to contend.

In theory, it makes sense, but again good franchises with a winning culture can get very good players after 10 in the draft and winning for the next few seasons will be noticed around the league, making us a more desirable destination in the future.

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Originally Posted by cgrand

never mentioned DWS specifically
i mentioned WS & WS/48
you are free to feel that they are flawed

not nearly as flawed as the fact that iguodala didnt really average 18/8/5/2 at 50/48, however

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You clearly have no idea how WS are calculated. And the stat I brought up was his stats for the playoffs this past year. It was never meant to say that's what he'll average. It's meant to give you an idea of what his capacity is at any given time.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If I am hearing the detractors correctly, though, that is a fear of theirs. He makes us good enough to be a fringe playoff team, but not a contender. Therefore, "average" draft picks but no real chance to contend.

In theory, it makes sense, but again good franchises with a winning culture can get very good players after 10 in the draft and winning for the next few seasons will be noticed around the league, making us a more desirable destination in the future.

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exactly, and you don't go from drafting 6 to championship contender immediately..it is a gradual process that takes time by getting better year after year(Pacers, Grizzlies)

as a matter of fact i do know how WS are calculated...never know who you are talking to on the internet
and i see you edited your original post to add that those were playoff stats

i would however characterize your 18/8/5/2 as "small sample size" and point out that years that he did approximate those numbers are now 5 years in the past. do you think he's worth a 4 year max? because that's what he's going to get

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If I am hearing the detractors correctly, though, that is a fear of theirs. He makes us good enough to be a fringe playoff team, but not a contender. Therefore, "average" draft picks but no real chance to contend.

In theory, it makes sense, but again good franchises with a winning culture can get very good players after 10 in the draft and winning for the next few seasons will be noticed around the league, making us a more desirable destination in the future.

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I've often talked about the culture of winning and losing and how it's not some switch your turn on and off. It's not like hey lets keep sucking and as soon as we draft x amount of payers lets stop playing Opossum and win the ship. Winning habits are formed over a long long time.

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Originally Posted by PelicanFever

exactly, and you don't go from drafting 6 to championship contender immediately..it is a gradual process that takes time by getting better year after year(Pacers, Grizzlies)

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But that addition of David West sure seemed to help out their young guys didn't it? And don't you think playing with him for these couple of years will help George and Hibbert, etc. long after he is gone?

If Vasquez is here, that's one leader, Jason Smith is another and I see it in Austin Rivers as a future leader also. Davis I hope he will step up when his game is polished and he makes his mark in this league, same for Rivers. Gordon isn't a leader, but Trey Burke may be one if he's apart of this franchise. So if not being a leader is a reason for not acquiring Iggy, it's a pretty dumb one. Leadership is leadership no matter if its from a veteran or not, which we do have. AI is a beast, not no anyone gets playing time on team USA which is very difficult team to make. And for him "not stepping up when Gallinari went down," I doubt we would be looking for him to be that type of guy, yes he will be getting paid like it but hell Ryan Anderson does too. He's a definite safe player to pick up from free- agency's like Guru would say, a line up of
Vasquez/Rivers/Burke(if drafted)
Gordon/Rivers/Roberts/(draftee)
Iggy/Miller(needs minutes)/(draftee)
AD/Anderson/Thomas
Lopez/draftee/


Sorry for the bad post.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If I am hearing the detractors correctly, though, that is a fear of theirs. He makes us good enough to be a fringe playoff team, but not a contender. Therefore, "average" draft picks but no real chance to contend.

In theory, it makes sense, but again good franchises with a winning culture can get very good players after 10 in the draft and winning for the next few seasons will be noticed around the league, making us a more desirable destination in the future.

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Yeah I mean you'd like to have a team of young guys growing up together, but it would be even better if you've got a team of young dudes learning to win and playing in playoff games. That doesn't mean you cripple yourselves to sign mediocre vets, but going out and getting a very good player on a relatively short term deal seems like a nice way to go.

In a perfect world, you sign a "young" Iggy, but those guys are hard to land and most of the ones you'd get via free agency are gonna be restricted FA's anyway.

Put it this way, in a 29 team team league I think Anderson, Iggy, Davis and a healthy Gordon (if such a thing exists) are all guys who could make an argument as a top 40 level guy next year. And those guys play complimentary roles for the most part - two ball handlers/playmakers (Gordon, Iggy), two shooters (Anderson, Gordon), two projected defensive specialists (Iggy on the wing, Davis in the middle), one guy who can get a lot of his offense without designed plays for him (Davis). Seems like a really nice fit, if they could put it together.

-Editing to add: Perhaps best of all, the fifth beatle of that crew would need to be a point guard, and that's one of the more oversaturated positions in the league. With Gordon+Iggy handling the ball, you can try to draft a Chalmers type later on and be just fine.

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Originally Posted by cgrand

as a matter of fact i do know how WS are calculated...never know who you are talking to on the internet
and i see you edited your original post to add that those were playoff stats

i would however characterize your 18/8/5/2 as "small sample size" and point out that years that he did approximate those numbers are now 5 years in the past. do you think he's worth a 4 year max? because that's what he's going to get

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You keep harping on those stats like I was implying that he's going to average that. He has put up those type of numbers out side of the percentages plenty of times throughout his entire career on any given night. You act like he's offensively challenged.

If you knew how winshares were calculated then why would you dismiss DWS if it is used to calculate winshares? Makes no sense to me.

$15 million a year for an aging Iguodala? What? Hell no! I like him as a player but not at more than $10 million. I am not sure what winning culture he brings as he played mainly for losing teams most of his career.