Exactly. See Carmelo and the infamous trade kicker
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It’s a year old article but you get the idea
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2018/07/...in-201819.html
Another interesting article.
https://www.theringer.com/nba/2018/2...ed-kobe-bryant
Pels fans: “trade AD”
— Tyler (@TMDillo5) June 11, 2019
Griff: “I hired Swin Cash”
Pels fans: “That’s great! Trade AD now”
Griff: “I just ordered a bunch of flex tape off of amazon”
Pels fans: “ummmm”
Griff: “I’m learning origami!”
Lakers: AD
Suns: Lonzo, Kuzma
Wizards: 4th pick, 6th pick, Hart, Wagner
Pels: Beal, Ingram, Lakers 2020, 2022 1st rounders unprotected
Who says no?
Me. Don't want any parts of Ingram. Send him to the Wizards, I'll take Hart and the #6 instead.
Edit: still don't really like that deal either, but the Lakers assets suck. Their young guys are either incapable of playing half of the game (Lonzo) or are one bad air-line flight away from retirement (Ingram), so I don't want any of them.
Ok. Then suppose the Wizards take Ingram and we get the 6th pick. Would you do it then?
Lakers: AD
Suns: Lonzo, Kuzma
Wizards: 4th pick, Ingram, Hart, Wagner
Pels: Beal, 6th pick overall, Lakers 2020, 2022 1st rounders unprotected
Edit, I didn't fully read your post.
Starting to get a little antsy with this chatter about how none of the other stars got value. Clippers, Celtics, Knicks wouldn't be interested now, etc. The fact of course remains we don't know what's going to happen. :afreak:
I honestly think the KD injury makes the Knicks more desperate to get AD, not less. I get that their plan was to combine AD and KD together for an instant contender, and a lot of people feel like KD getting hurt completely scuppers that plan, so I understand why some people would think otherwise.
But for me, losing out on KD now makes AD a must-get for them. They have no backup plan. Kyrie's shown strong signs of heading to Brooklyn instead of NY (still no guarantee), and since KD is injured, AD is their last real shot at a legitimate superstar. They miss out on him, they probably have to scrape the bottom of the barrel for someone like Vucevic, who is good but isn't going to ignite playoff hopes for the franchise. Next free agency doesn't really have as many chances at superstars either, it's a lot drier. For NYC, it's this year, or accept another multiple dead-years. AD is their last hope, their last piece that could lure other stars in (Kyrie, Kemba, Butler), and their last chance to sell the fanbase on moving forward.
Add to that the fact that apparently AD's list is now just LA and NY, and NY have to at least think he'd be open to resigning there, since he keeps naming them.
So basically Buddy and Oladipo were better than people thought they would be and so now we’re saying those were good deals? But you’re completely discounting that 3 dudes under 23 who have been playing for a crappy franchise could get better if they’re traded here, along with the #4 pick, and future draft picks?
Y’all are funny.
I agree. The Knicks has been selling the fanbase a star. I think they knew KD was coming. So now they have to come through. Trading for Davis may put them ahead of Brooklyn for Irving services. And KD is still on the table. They could still go into next season with Irving, Davis, and Durant under contract.
Fine, let me rephrase it with all caveats in place.
''The way things went, we got extremely lucky, and ended up with Zion. Any other combination of the ping-pong balls falling in another way would have NOT got us Zion. The odds of us getting Zion in the lottery were extremely small. If we had traded AD in February, there is pretty much no question that us and the other team would have had different records. NY would have still sucked but they wouldn't have been 17 wins. We would have still sucked, but we wouldn't have had the same record we ended up with. Given the extreme unlikelihood of us getting the pick we have under even the circumstances we got it, it seems silly to wish we had done something differently which would have altered our chances, even by only one or two spots, and prevented us from acquiring the single best NBA prospect out of college in over a decade.''
How's that? Pedantic enough?
I'm saying those deals worked out pretty well in the long run.
I've never ''discounted'' the idea that Ball or Ingram could get better. We have had this argument dozens of times on this board. Every single time, whether it's with you, or 13-3, or GA25, or whichever bad-faith arguer decides not to bother actually reading what I've written before flipping their lids, I have to explain YET AGAIN that I totally understand that Ingram, or Ball, or Kuzma, or Josh Hart, or Moe flippin' Wagner, COULD end up improving in the future. In fact, MULTIPLE TIMES I have clarified that I expect certain improvements from certain players (I EXPECT Ingram to improve as a rebounder, for example).
I've also said that IF we were to end up with those players I would desperately hope that they prove me wrong and play well, because I want this team to be good, and I would be HAPPY to be wrong in those circumstances.
Please, please, I am begging you, argue with things I've actually said, or for approaches I've actually taken, rather than just making up stuff to get upset with.
BREAKING NEWS:
— ZIONOLA (@ReasonablePels) June 11, 2019
The New Orleans Pelicans have agreed to trade Anthony Davis and E’Twaun Moore to the Boston Celtics for Jayson Tatum, Marcus Smart, Jaylen Brown, and two future first round picks, per sources.
:hihi: :hihi:
This twitter account has 53 followers.
''per sources''.
Sounds legit.
This is hilarious coming from the person that made this comment...
Saying we wouldn’t have gotten Zion if we traded AD in February is literally unprovable and unknown.
By your same logic and the theories of time travel - you change one thing, you change everything.
If your point is that ultimately it doesn’t matter because we got Zion, I don’t disagree!
Already accepted the fact that I phrased it poorly, and re-clarified. My point was that if you change anything you have to re-run the lottery again, and since the odds of us getting Zion the first time were so miniscule and we lucked out, the odds of us running it all over again and STILL getting Zion are so miniscule as to be considered, for practical purposes, pretty close to 0%.
Buddy? I don't remember. I don't think I was super high on him, but I can't remember whether I thought he was going to settle and improve, or whether I thought he was just gonna stay being kinda meh.
Oladipo though, definitely. I totally believed that he had disappointed due to playing alongside Russ, who was on his triple-double-quest and didn't care about teammates or winning, and I argued that he was a much, MUCH better player than he was being given the chance to show. Then he went to Indiana, and it turns out I was right on that one.
Y'all see Brandon Ingram's Instagram story?
This should not come as a surprise. Very little enthusiasm around the league for Knicks' young prospects. https://t.co/eXSWWZyrW4
— Howard Beck (@HowardBeck) June 11, 2019
I can't believe Alonzo Trier's spacing isn't doing it for them :rolleyes:
Not surprising to anyone. We had the leaks from Woj that pretty much confirmed this when he said that Griff is asking other teams to get a third team involved to sweeten deals.
Knicks have promising young players in Robinson and Trier, but Knox, Ntilikina, and DSJ are not viewed highly around the league. If the Knicks want this deal, they'll have to try and flip Knox and Ntilikina into a decent player, or into a high value pick.
Am I nuts for thinking that maybe Orlando could be a team to consider as a third party in the NYC deal?
They were pretty high on DSJ around draft time from all reports. They were linked to him multiple times earlier this season when he was being shopped by Dallas, and they still desperately need a lead guard (their current full time starting PG is DJ Augustin, who is 31, barely 6'0 tall, and is on the decline).
If that's true, maybe they could be roped in to provide the additional draft capital for an AD trade? Maybe re-rout DSJ and a future pick (possibly a Dallas pick) to Orlando in exchange for #16 and one of their young guys?
Maybe I'm just pipe-dreaming here, they probably wouldn't be that interested and I'm not sure why of the Magic young bigs I'd want. Mo Bamba? Jonathan Isaac?
The Knicks would have to trade DSJ, Knox and trier, for an all star, but who would that all star be? Would the wizards trade Beal for that? Then you draft Barrett and land Mitchell Robinson als, and get the Dallas pick next year
Wonder if we could get oladipo instead of Beal for that, love his defense
Jrue
Beal or oladipo
Barret
Zion
Robinson
Dallas pick next year
That's not necessarily true. Griff was fairly clear that the all-star would become less necessary if the depth of the supporting cast or the quality of the picks increased. Similarly, the quality of the picks becomes less important if there's a legit, full on all-star on the table.
The Knicks could pretty easily, I think, offer the deepest pick-based trade out of anyone. They could, if they wanted, offer their own picks in 2019, 2020, 2022, and the Dallas 2021 and 2023, without even having to make any moves. Only Boston could really come close to that, but they only have one pick from another team for future years (the Memphis 2020/2021 pick). They could also bolster the strength of their player core by packaging one or two of those picks with someone like Knox for another solid roleplayer, or a young player with high upside, while still maintaining probably the best set of picks.
In terms of players, Boston is the clear favourite there: Tatum and Brown are the two best prospects from any of the major teams, so the fact that they don't really have the best draft capital is less of a problem.
LA falls somewhere in the middle. Their players aren't as good as Boston's, but they're better than most of the Knicks guys (Ingram and Ball are better than Knox and Ntilikina, for example), but their array of picks is clearly inferior to New York's as well. So that's a kind of tricky position for them.
How do we know Robinson and Trier have any value around the league? Both had somewhat serious off court red flags coming into the league. Robinson also fouls at a rate that would embarrass Ajinca.
The reason I wanted the Knicks deal back in February was about accumulating the draft pick with the highest probability of getting Zion. Now that we have Zion, I don't really see anything of value in the Knicks package unless you love RJ.
I really find it kind of embarrassing when people bring up Robinson's foul rate as if that's somehow some huge point. He's a 20 year old big. He fouls. So do pretty much all of them.
Per 100, Mitchell Robinson averages 7.7 fouls.
In his rookie year, Draymond Green averaged 7.6 fouls per 100. Rudy Gobert, 6.9. DeAndre Jordan, 6.5.
Rookie Andrew Bynum fouled 8.7 times per 100. Rookie Mark Eaton, 7.5. Rookie Ben Wallace, 7.1.
Rookie bigs with defensive games foul a lot. It's fine.
About Trier? I don't know. I can imagine he'd have some value, since he was a double digit scorer who shot very well from 3, which is pretty much always something people are on the lookout for. Can't guarantee it though, haven't heard anything about him being sought after or about him being disliked.