Pels Off season thread

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Originally Posted by Silver Nail

Your offer may be good if you change the 3/100 to 2/100. CP has a PO north of 44 mil he is declining. Looking for a 50 mil per yr deal.

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He is not looking for $50 million a year. Reportedly he will sign for 3/$90 with the Suns.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

So what's the backup plan if lowry passes on coming here which is more likely than not

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Brogdon?

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

So what's the backup plan if lowry passes on coming here which is more likely than not

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Ball?

The Pelicans have extended the qualifying offer to both Lonzo Ball and Josh Hart making them restricted free agents, sources tell ESPN.

— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) July 31, 2021

No surprises here. Had to do it.

1) Can't S&T anyone without the QO
2) If we end up needing/wanting to bring either of them back, the QO needs to be out there to match any deal
3) QO Can be withdrawn at any point so it doesn't cost us anything to extend it

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

He is not looking for $50 million a year. Reportedly he will sign for 3/$90 with the Suns.

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Yeah, from what I've heard he's declining the PO because he wants more guaranteed money long term, not because it's not enough yearly.

Why accept a $44m player option now when you could get injured or get hurt, and that's all you'll get, when you could sign a 3/$90 or a 3/$100 deal and get paid less per year but have multiple years of incoming adding up to more than the $44m? It's not about single year salary for CP3, I'm sure.

I am curious as to what Griff's backup plan is if Dallas ends up outbidding him for Lowry.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

So what's the backup plan if lowry passes on coming here which is more likely than not

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Lonzo, but wouldn't be adverse to Goran Dragic (especially if we could sign and trade Lonzo for Robinson or McDermott). Dragic would be ideal mentor for Kira and wouldn't require a whole lot of minutes which would insure that Lewis get ample playing time.

Lonzo QO: 14 million
Hart QO: 5 Million

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The Pelicans have extended the qualifying offer to both Lonzo Ball and Josh Hart making them restricted free agents, sources tell ESPN.

— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) July 31, 2021

No surprises here. Had to do it.

1) Can't S&T anyone without the QO
2) If we end up needing/wanting to bring either of them back, the QO needs to be out there to match any deal
3) QO Can be withdrawn at any point so it doesn't cost us anything to extend it

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Just limits the available money under the cap until the offer is rescinded.

Has to be Brogdon or Dragic. That's the only good vet pgs who would be available through trades right?

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Originally Posted by PELSGIRL

Has to be Brogdon or Dragic. That's the only good vet pgs who would be available through trades right?

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Technically... I think we want to do a sign and trade for Lowry for cap reasons.

Trying to look up better options at point guards. Looking at the per ranking is pretty wild.

You get your usual suspects.

1. Curry
2. Lillard
3. Luka
6.CP3
8. Jrue Holiday
9. Westbrook
10. Conley

Then, it completely falls off the rails

11. Derrick Rose/Ben Simmons
14. Colin Sexton
15. Brogdon
16. Kemba Walker
25. Lowry
26. Haliburton
28. Lonzo Ball


They really aren't that many viable options.

Yeah... I think Brogdon is probably best player that can surge into a top ten PG with Zion and Ingram with good years ahead of him.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Just limits the available money under the cap until the offer is rescinded.

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Pelicans, as of today, are not planning on using cap room on this offseasons moves

Zack Collins? Wealth of talent, but can't get on the court due to injury. Is he worth the league minimum so the Pelicans can kick the tires? Low risk, high reward?

https://hoopshype.com/rumor/1542873/

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Zack Collins? Wealth of talent, but can't get on the court due to injury. Is he worth the league minimum so the Pelicans can kick the tires?

https://hoopshype.com/rumor/1542873/

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Isn't he injured?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

He shot 48% TS this year and had a TOV% almost twice his AST%. He is years away from being a good player, if he ever gets there. Again, there's a reason ATL is prioritising shopping him before his extension comes up and not Huerter.

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The man came back from a long injury hiatus and single handily kept them in the game against the Bucks. Middleton was scorching hot until Reddish came in to defend him. He also shot lights out from three.

Very small sample size, sure. But doing it in the conference finals against a team that was clearly better shows he has the ability and potential to be a true shut down three and D wing, which are difficult to find.

With a change of scenery and a defined role, there's no reason to believe he won't be a regular rotation guy that can help you win games. If the Hawks are willing to part with him for cheap, we should be all over that.

The move is purely a basketball one, but if it happens to appease Zion, then even better. You think Thanasis is actually an NBA player?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The Pelicans have extended the qualifying offer to both Lonzo Ball and Josh Hart making them restricted free agents, sources tell ESPN.

— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) July 31, 2021

No surprises here. Had to do it.

1) Can't S&T anyone without the QO
2) If we end up needing/wanting to bring either of them back, the QO needs to be out there to match any deal
3) QO Can be withdrawn at any point so it doesn't cost us anything to extend it

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I swear this happened yonks ago

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

So what's the backup plan if lowry passes on coming here which is more likely than not

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Probably to work out a sign and trade with Lonzo, bring back Hart, be an over the cap team and use the TPE the Pelicans get from the Memphis deal.

After that it's let everyone go, be an under the cap team. give out a dumb contract or (hopefully) scoop up leftovers that dont get what they're looking for in FA.

Grant Afseth
@GrantAfseth

The Miami Heat currently are viewed as the front-runner to sign veteran point guard Kyle Lowry in free agency, a league source tells
@MavericksSI
.

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Originally Posted by socbe7

The man came back from a long injury hiatus and single handily kept them in the game against the Bucks. Middleton was scorching hot until Reddish came in to defend him. He also shot lights out from three.

Very small sample size, sure. But doing it in the conference finals against a team that was clearly better shows he has the ability and potential to be a true shut down three and D wing, which are difficult to find.

With a change of scenery and a defined role, there's no reason to believe he won't be a regular rotation guy that can help you win games. If the Hawks are willing to part with him for cheap, we should be all over that.

The move is purely a basketball one, but if it happens to appease Zion, then even better. You think Thanasis is actually an NBA player?

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Of course Thanasis isn't an NBA player. He's also not a former top 10 pick who had top 5 pick hype who will probably get large FA offers if we don't extend him to big money early based on exactly the same flashes you're using to endorse him as a worthwhile target. Thanasis is a vanity move for the Bucks, sure, but he's a vanity move that costs that basically nothing, never will cost them anything, and doesn't require any play time.

Getting, attempting to develop, and then eventually retaining Reddish would have a cost in terms of assets of acquisition, playing time for development, and potentially a very large payday to keep him around. Why a large payday? Cause there will be someone like yourself who uses one or two outlier games where a 26% 3PT shooter hits a bunch in order to fool themselves into thinking he's worth $10m+ a year. At that point you either pay him, or lose him for nothing - which means the assets you spent to get him are vanished into the void too.

If you think Cam is going to figure everything out in the next 18 months or so, then fair enough. That's a belief you can have, and then trading for him potentially makes sense. But I do not think that's in the case because his offensive game has so far to go before it is even consistently bad let alone actually being good.

Last year Cam Reddish was 21st percentile in O-EPM. The 397th rated O-EPM in the NBA. I don't care how many shots he hits in one game: good for him. The argument is not ''Cam Reddish has never had a game where he hit shots''. It's not even ''Cam Reddish will never be good'' - though I still have doubts about that. The argument is ''Cam Reddish is so far away from being good that even if he ever gets there, you will have to pay him to retain him and, due to exactly the argument you are making about potential plus his pedigree, that payment is likely to be more than he will be worth''.

Pelicans have declined the team option on Didi Louzada, sources confirm.

However, sources say the team also extended a qualifying offer to Louzada with the hope of keeping him long term.

— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) July 31, 2021

Didi is a RFA. Can be used in a S&T, or retained, as the team sees fit.

Realgm reporting bulls will offer Lonzo 4yr 80mil, maybe take this with a grain of salt. However if this is Zo's biggest offer in FA should we match if we whiff on Lowry?

4yr 80mil would be my absolute limit I would go to re-sign Zo if we miss on any of our other key PG targets.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

Grant Afseth
@GrantAfseth

The Miami Heat currently are viewed as the front-runner to sign veteran point guard Kyle Lowry in free agency, a league source tells
@MavericksSI
.

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Lowry's agent bumping up his price.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Pelicans, as of today, are not planning on using cap room on this offseasons moves

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What does that mean? All sign and trades? Who is the backup plan to Lowry? I sure hope it?s not Dinwiddie. I?d rather re-sign Ball or trade for Brogdon if we can?t get Lowry.

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Originally Posted by Drudkh_

Realgm reporting bulls will offer Lonzo 4yr 80mil, maybe take this with a grain of salt. However if this is Zo's biggest offer in FA should we match if we whiff on Lowry?

4yr 80mil would be my absolute limit I would go to re-sign Zo if we miss on any of our other key PG targets.

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I set my ceiling on Lonzo at $18m per year and I'm happy staying there. If he gets $20m a year elsewhere, good for him.

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Originally Posted by Drudkh_

Realgm reporting bulls will offer Lonzo 4yr 80mil, maybe take this with a grain of salt. However if this is Zo's biggest offer in FA should we match if we whiff on Lowry?

4yr 80mil would be my absolute limit I would go to re-sign Zo if we miss on any of our other key PG targets.

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I don't understand the fit... Of Colby White, Lavine, and Ball...

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Originally Posted by Darkhorse985

What does that mean? All sign and trades? Who is the backup plan to Lowry? I sure hope it?s not Dinwiddie. I?d rather re-sign Ball or trade for Brogdon if we can?t get Lowry.

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He means that any trades will be added to the Memphis trade.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

I don't understand the fit... Of Colby White, Lavine, and Ball...

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Ball fits really well with Lavine actually imo. Ball is at his best used as wing, making connective passes that take advantage of scrambled defenses, and harassing wings off-ball on defense.

Coby White? I mean, he's not very good. Right now, they're clearly trying to be good soon. They cashed in assets on Vucevic, they have LaVine being very good now. They don't want to wait 3 years to find out if Coby White will ever learn to pass on a consistent basis, or sort his shot selection out, or learn how to defend. They want to add pieces of Lavine and Vucevic, I doubt fit with Coby White is top 5 in their priorities.

I haven't seen it discussed much but would Cameron Payne be ready to lead a team. He does have a relationship with Willie. We could bring him in through free agency and still do a S&T with Lonzo for additional help.

This is kind of a bad offseason to actually have cap room. The free agent cupboard has nothing but dust bunnies. I mean, it's so bad that more than one team is courting Lonzo freaking Ball?

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Originally Posted by ragincaucasian

This is kind of a bad offseason to actually have cap room. The free agent cupboard has nothing but dust bunnies. I mean, it's so bad that more than one team is courting Lonzo freaking Ball?

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proceed with caution

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Ball fits really well with Lavine actually imo. Ball is at his best used as wing, making connective passes that take advantage of scrambled defenses, and harassing wings off-ball on defense.

Coby White? I mean, he's not very good. Right now, they're clearly trying to be good soon. They cashed in assets on Vucevic, they have LaVine being very good now. They don't want to wait 3 years to find out if Coby White will ever learn to pass on a consistent basis, or sort his shot selection out, or learn how to defend. They want to add pieces of Lavine and Vucevic, I doubt fit with Coby White is top 5 in their priorities.

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If Lonzo is Chi-Town's first choice, didn't you just make a case for the Pelicans to keep him?

"They don't want to wait 3 years to find out if Coby White will ever learn to pass on a consistent basis, or sort his shot selection out, or learn how to defend".......dae

Therefore you believe that Lonzo DOES pass on a consistent basis...Lonzo DOES have a good shot selection....and, Lonzo DOES know how to defend. If, as you suggest, Lonzo can do those things, remind me, why do you want to let him go?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

If Lonzo is Chi-Town's first choice, didn't you just make a case for the Pelicans to keep him?

"They don't want to wait 3 years to find out if Coby White will ever learn to pass on a consistent basis, or sort his shot selection out, or learn how to defend".......dae

Therefore you believe that Lonzo DOES pass on a consistent basis...Lonzo DOES have a good shot selection....and, Lonzo DOES know how to defend. If, as you suggest, Lonzo can do those things, remind me, why do you want to let him go?

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One thing that I dont see many discuss is the role. Lonzo likes New Orleans and his teammates, but the money isnt the biggest divide. Lonzo wants to be a POINT GUARD. Griff dont see him that way.

Lonzo is underrated by Pels fans, not by other teams in the league. Same thing with Reddish and others. People here state an opinion and then beat the ever living trash out of that opinion with absurd hyperboles until the point they can never change that opinion no matter how much a player improves.

That being said, how he views himself does determine if he fits this team or not. His trajectory of improvement since leaving LAL has him on path to be on the level of the smallest 3 of a big 3. His grit and work ethic indicates he can probably get there......but does he understand that's his ceiling, yet, or does he still have ambitions of being a #1 or #2?

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Lonzo is underrated by Pels fans, not by other teams in the league. Same thing with Reddish and others. People here state an opinion and then beat the ever living trash out of that opinion with absurd hyperboles until the point they can never change that opinion now matter how much a player improves.

That being said, how he views himself does determine if he fits this team or not. His trajectory of improvement since leaving LAL has him on path to be on the level of the smallest 3 of a big 3. His grit and work ethic indicates he can probably get there......but does he understand that's his ceiling, yet, or does he still have ambitions of being a #1 or #2?

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His goal is to be an All Star point guard. He wants to be making the decisions in the half court for a high octane team. He thinks he can be Jason Kidd. And good for him - go ahead and try. But he will fail if that is what he wants to be. And he will get traded during his next contract, then sign for under market value in 2025 and THAT team and its fans will love him. I have said that consistently for years. In his late 20s, once he accepts who he is, he will give his team great value

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

His goal is to be an All Star point guard. He wants to be making the decisions in the half court for a high octane team. He thinks he can be Jason Kidd. And good for him - go ahead and try. But he will fail if that is what he wants to be. And he will get traded during his next contract, then sign for under market value in 2025 and THAT team and its fans will love him. I have said that consistently for years. In his late 20s, once he accepts who he is, he will give his team great value

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And that's one of the few things I have consistently agreed with you on.

Lonzo Ball has some skills. He's a very good connective passer. He's a solid off-ball defender. He has learned to become a pretty good shooter from outside. These are the makings of a very competent complimentary piece. If he can understand that and internalise it, and play that role, I think he can be effective. I just don't believe he is there mentally, and I don't think he will be until he's 27 or 28 years old and has bounced around a bit and been shown that he's just not the star lead guard he currently thinks he is. Unfortunately, he's only 23 and I don't want to pay him for the next 4 or 5 years hoping that he'll figure that out. So if he figures it out, it will be elsewhere.

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Originally Posted by ragincaucasian

This is kind of a bad offseason to actually have cap room. The free agent cupboard has nothing but dust bunnies. I mean, it's so bad that more than one team is courting Lonzo freaking Ball?

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Kind of interesting what Bobby Portis ends up getting... He definitely cashing out this off season.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

One thing that I dont see many discuss is the role. Lonzo likes New Orleans and his teammates, but the money isnt the biggest divide. Lonzo wants to be a POINT GUARD. Griff dont see him that way.

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I agree, Mac. My point is why let him just walk if he truly is a $ 20MM value and has those skills (in his eyes)?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

I agree, Mac. My point is why let him just walk if he truly is a $ 20MM value and has those skills (in his eyes)?

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The plan isnt to let him walk. Its to add guys into this Memphis trade and then sign and trade Lonzo for something of value. I will be disappointed if they use cap space and then just let Lonzo and Hart walk.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The plan isnt to let him walk. Its to add guys into this Memphis trade and then sign and trade Lonzo for something of value. I will be disappointed if they use cap space and then just let Lonzo and Hart walk.

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As would I.

Say we strike out on Lowry. He goes to Miami or Philly
Lonzo doesn't get his $20 million.
Brogdon is on the table for a couple of protected 1st
You try to get at least one FA

What's the plan?

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

The plan isnt to let him walk. Its to add guys into this Memphis trade and then sign and trade Lonzo for something of value. I will be disappointed if they use cap space and then just let Lonzo and Hart walk.

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You think Hart is gone?

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Say we strike out on Lowry. He goes to Miami or Philly
Lonzo doesn't get his $20 million.
Brogdon is on the table for a couple of protected 1st
You try to get at least one FA

What's the plan?

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I think this is the biggest misconception amongst fans. There isnt "a plan" -- in that they are gonna try this, and then that, and then that.

Its gonna be value and opportunity based. And you cant really plan for that because 29 other teams are dictating the market, not to mention the whims of the players themselves. Griff isnt just doing Plan A, and then seeing if Lowry goes elsewhere and moving on to Plan B. Its all being thrown out at the same time and the value and other people who make the decisions will dictate what he goes with and what he doesnt.

Hope that makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Say we strike out on Lowry. He goes to Miami or Philly
Lonzo doesn't get his $20 million.
Brogdon is on the table for a couple of protected 1st
You try to get at least one FA

What's the plan?

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Imo, in that scenario, re-sign Lonzo and go after a 6th man shooter and stretch 4 in FA (Evan Fournier and Olynyk).

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Originally Posted by AUSSIE_PELICAN

You think Hart is gone?

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Again, it depends on the market and the offers. I know people dont like to hear that and it is easier to imagine Griff has a concrete - yes I want Hart back or No I dont - but thats not how he is working. It will come down to so many other dominoes and other teams offers etc.

That said, my money would be on he is signed and traded elsewhere

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I think this is the biggest misconception amongst fans. There isnt "a plan" -- in that they are gonna try this, and then that, and then that.

Its gonna be value and opportunity based. And you cant really plan for that because 29 other teams are dictating the market, not to mention the whims of the players themselves. Griff isnt just doing Plan A, and then seeing if Lowry goes elsewhere and moving on to Plan B. Its all being thrown out at the same time and the value and other people who make the decisions will dictate what he goes with and what he doesnt.

Hope that makes sense.

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I was more implying "What’s your course of action under these circumstances"

I wasn't referring to a plan or the organization.. Just you personally and for anyone else that wants to discuss.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

One thing that I dont see many discuss is the role. Lonzo likes New Orleans and his teammates, but the money isnt the biggest divide. Lonzo wants to be a POINT GUARD. Griff dont see him that way.

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Griff see him as a shooting guard? Am I the only one confused by this ?

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Originally Posted by Pelicans47

Griff see him as a shooting guard? Am I the only one confused by this ?

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David Griffin sees Lonzo as a 3&D wing. Which is what he is most effective at, at least at this point in his career.

It's not that helpful a lot of the time to try and give people secure ''positions''. It's more helpful to think of players as guards, wings, and bigs more generally I find - Lonzo is a wing, not a guard, by this estimation.

In the broadest sense, guards (point guards, traditionally) bear a creation burden. They are shot creators. Lonzo is not that. Lonzo is mostly useful for his utility: he's not Kyle Korver but he can shoot well enough, he's not a shot creator but he can pass well, he's not a lockdown guy but he's fine enough off-ball on D. He fits a lot of roles but none of those roles involve being a primary ball handler, shot creator, on-ball threat, which are traditionally guard based activities.

Yep. Agreed, Dae. I have a more optimistic outlook than you about how high those skills you listed will end up being but I don't see Zo ever being an all-star PG. I can see him being a low end Eastern all-star for his utility purposes at SG or SF. If he would embrace that, I think it would fit so perfectly with BI, Zion, Kira, NAW, and others.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

His goal is to be an All Star point guard. He wants to be making the decisions in the half court for a high octane team. He thinks he can be Jason Kidd. And good for him - go ahead and try. But he will fail if that is what he wants to be. And he will get traded during his next contract, then sign for under market value in 2025 and THAT team and its fans will love him. I have said that consistently for years. In his late 20s, once he accepts who he is, he will give his team great value

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Yeah. I see that, too. He also has Clutch in his ear. I don't necessarily think they are telling him anti-NOLA rhetoric but I absolutely think they are telling him he can be that all-star PG and that he can be that #1 or #2 and to chase that money. I'm very high on Ball and his trajectory but if I had to make a prediction, I don't think he's ready to accept a more off-the-ball role behind Zion and BI.