AD trade scenarios...

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

I agree in a starting lineup of 5 there is room at most for two non shooters. Zion will be one. You have to assume whatever center he gets paired with will be the other. We simply cannot run a lineup with Zion, Ball, and any regular center. It's far easier to get an above average shooting guard than a center which is why I think for the good things Ball does, he's about 10 years too late for the current NBA.

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Ball, plus free throw shooting, would have been a top 20 player in 1975.

I agree, by the way, that the starting 5 can't really afford to have more than 2 complete non shooters in it. Zion's shot has shown some promise but it's FAR from being a frequently usable tool, so yep, he can't really be relied on to shoot. Whatever centre he ends up playing with, whether that's Okafor or Robinson or Jarrett Allen or Montrezl Harrell or whoever probably won't be particularly able to shoot other. So the other three guys need to be at least decent shooters. Jrue is that: a decent shooter. Not great, but not horrendous. That means the other 2 guys NEED to be able to shoot. It's pretty much a requirement.

Brown and Tatum fit that, they can both shoot. Shamet and SGA would fit that from LAC. Brooklyn could give one, in Joe Harris (47.4% from 3). Knicks could offer one in Allonzo Trier (39.4% from three).

Who can LA offer that's a real sharp shooter? Ball shoots 31% from 3. Kuzma, 30%. Ingram, about 32%.

Think about this: of all Lakers players this year who played at least 41 games (half the season) the two best three point shooters were Lance Stephenson and Rajon Rondo.

I agree with your entire post except the premise that the FO is out to find that this offseason. I bet they have the mindset of forming the outside of the puzzle this year and filling in the pieces over the next two seasons. Have a complete contender in three years. So it wouldn't surprise me to see us going into this season with gaping holes.

But that's only if the FO sees Ball as one of the centerpieces they want to build around.....same with Robinson. I don't really believe that but there are the old quotes of Griffin and Gentry praising Ball. Just saying there is a small chance.

This is all just playing Devil's Advocate. I really like Tatum and Brown as the best fit like you guys say. God, this next week and change will be sloooooooow.

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Originally Posted by Zombiewoof

OK, I have one I think I like.

Three team trade with the Knicks and Wizards. AD goes to the Knicks, Beal to the Pelicans and most of the Knicks' assets go to the Wizards. I don't know if this would be enough going to the Wizards, but most of the projected deals I have seen for Beal have been less than expected.

Knicks get AD and two second rounds from the Pelicans (2019 and 2020). The picks might need to go to the Wizards though.

Wizards get Knox, Ntilinka, Thomas and a 2023 1st from the Knicks and Hill from the Pelicans. (I tried to give them Moore too, but it didn't work).

Pelicans get Beal from the Wizards and DSJ, Robinson, 2019 #3 overall and both 2021 firsts from the Knicks.

Again, I don't know if the Wizards would go for something like this and some of the picks might have to be moved around, but I think I like this one. Certainly the Knicks and Pelicans should be happy with it, since the Knicks get AD and the Pelicans get Beal plus probably Barrett and two picks in the 2021 draft. The Pelicans could then re-sign Payton and would still have some money available for some targeted free agents.

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Of all the convuleted 3 team trades I like this one.. Wizard are probably gonna be hard tanking for cheap talent or draft picks till Wall Supermax is off the books.

We may have to give up a 1st to Wizards to take most of Knicks trash assets.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

John Wall's entire game is based around his speed and athleticism, and his ankle just exploded. Put that with the size of his salary at basically $40m per until 2023, and I'm not interested in him at all.

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Like I said....what do I know. Didn't even know Wall was injured. Yeah, why get saddled with another SH-type contract. I'll just sit on the sidelines and see what the Master eventually comes up with. Exciting times for sure.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

Of all the convuleted 3 team trades I like this one.. Wizard are probably gonna be hard tanking for cheap talent or draft picks till Wall Supermax is off the books.

We may have to give up a 1st to Wizards to take most of Knicks trash assets.

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Yeah, I was trying to avoid giving up either of the 2021 picks to the Wizards. Maybe it would work moving the two seconds to them, but I sent them to the Knicks assuming they would need to fill out the bench cheaply if they had AD and a couple of max guys. This trade would surround Zion with Beal and Jrue (plus DSJ) at guard, Robinson and Barrett. Add a shooting guard with next year's pick and the Pelicans would go into that 2021 draft with three first to fill out that championship roster. :)

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Originally Posted by WildlifeAirGrp

Like I said....what do I know. Didn't even know Wall was injured. Yeah, why get saddled with another SH-type contract. I'll just sit on the sidelines and see what the Master eventually comes up with. Exciting times for sure.

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Yeah, he ruptured his Achilles last season, that was when Beal really took off for them and went Super Saiyan.

No idea... I was told half the league has logged interest and that griff and company are sifting through their options. https://t.co/1Zf0bqC2YG

— Steve Kyler (@stevekylerNBA) June 9, 2019

Obviously I've spoken about how much I do not really trust Kyler before, so I'm not putting this here to say ''here is a concrete source''. I'm just putting it here in case anyone is interested, as a piece of ongoing commentary.

Let's have a fight over which half of the league didn't submit a deal!!!

Kidding. Let's not do that.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

Let's have a fight over which half of the league didn't submit a deal!!!

Kidding. Let's not do that.

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Here's my arbitrary boundary: Detroit, NYC, Brooklyn, LAC, LA, Orlando, Atlanta, San Antonio, Houston, Miami, OKC, Denver, Philadelphia, Phoenix, and Charlotte all submitted a proposal.

Nobody else did.

Source: Me, making it up, just now.

AD must have made it clear he's not coming back. Glad to hear there's interest from a good portion of the NBA, assuming that's accurate. Of course I think most of us could have said the same thing without hearing anything from sources. AD is a hot commodity in today's NBA.

Hopefully we get a haul for him.

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Originally Posted by Zombiewoof

OK, I have one I think I like.

Three team trade with the Knicks and Wizards. AD goes to the Knicks, Beal to the Pelicans and most of the Knicks' assets go to the Wizards. I don't know if this would be enough going to the Wizards, but most of the projected deals I have seen for Beal have been less than expected.

Knicks get AD and two second rounds from the Pelicans (2019 and 2020). The picks might need to go to the Wizards though.

Wizards get Knox, Ntilinka, Thomas and a 2023 1st from the Knicks and Hill from the Pelicans. (I tried to give them Moore too, but it didn't work).

Pelicans get Beal from the Wizards and DSJ, Robinson, 2019 #3 overall and both 2021 firsts from the Knicks.

Again, I don't know if the Wizards would go for something like this and some of the picks might have to be moved around, but I think I like this one. Certainly the Knicks and Pelicans should be happy with it, since the Knicks get AD and the Pelicans get Beal plus probably Barrett and two picks in the 2021 draft. The Pelicans could then re-sign Payton and would still have some money available for some targeted free agents.

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I don't think that is close to enough to get Beal. I think Beal is a fantasy anyway. He is their only player and they have no GM.

This is more in reference to free agency than to trades, but I think it still holds a lot of relevance.

If you’re the Lakers you should not longer think of yourselves as choosers. You are beggars and need to be happy with whatever you get. You get Tobias Harris, you just be grateful. https://t.co/GmAIlbqmpC

— Hardwood Paroxysm (@HPbasketball) June 9, 2019

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Ball, plus free throw shooting, would have been a top 20 player in 1975.

I agree, by the way, that the starting 5 can't really afford to have more than 2 complete non shooters in it. Zion's shot has shown some promise but it's FAR from being a frequently usable tool, so yep, he can't really be relied on to shoot. Whatever centre he ends up playing with, whether that's Okafor or Robinson or Jarrett Allen or Montrezl Harrell or whoever probably won't be particularly able to shoot other. So the other three guys need to be at least decent shooters. Jrue is that: a decent shooter. Not great, but not horrendous. That means the other 2 guys NEED to be able to shoot. It's pretty much a requirement.

Brown and Tatum fit that, they can both shoot. Shamet and SGA would fit that from LAC. Brooklyn could give one, in Joe Harris (47.4% from 3). Knicks could offer one in Allonzo Trier (39.4% from three).

Who can LA offer that's a real sharp shooter? Ball shoots 31% from 3. Kuzma, 30%. Ingram, about 32%.

Think about this: of all Lakers players this year who played at least 41 games (half the season) the two best three point shooters were Lance Stephenson and Rajon Rondo.

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Are we sure Alonzo Trier cracks an 8 man rotation? Or that his shooting is real, based on 2 attempts per game?

Josh Hart, who could be in the Lakers deal, put up very similar numbers his rookie year. If we're being fair and you're giving the Knicks credit for being able to offer Trier to be that sharp shooter you say we need, wouldn't it only be fair to give the Lakers credit for being able to offer Hart?

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Are we sure Alonzo Trier cracks an 8 man rotation? Or that his shooting is real, based on 2 attempts per game?

Josh Hart, who could be in the Lakers deal, put up very similar numbers his rookie year. If we're being fair and you're giving the Knicks credit for being able to offer Trier to be that sharp shooter you say we need, wouldn't it only be fair to give the Lakers credit for being able to offer Hart?

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Josh Hart shot 33.4% from three this year. No idea if Allonzo Trier cracks an 8 man rotation in future, but we're not trying to set up ''The Team''. What we have after this trade should be some key pieces that we want to keep long term, sure, but a lot of the peripherals are stop-gap solutions and filler names. It doesn't matter if Allonzo Trier cracks an 8 man rotation on a serious contending team, because we won't BE a serious contending team, and when we are one in three years and we're still trying to play Trier, then we have bigger problems.

Part of the reason I feel slightly more confident with Trier moving forward than Hart is FT shooting. All other things equal, good shooter are usually pretty good FT shooters. Hart shot 70% from the line his rookie season, and 68% this season. Trier shot 80.3% from the line this season, which isn't elite but is much better. Obviously different number of attempts, still, but the FT stroke is the one which is usually the most consistent throughout a career.

I like Josh Hart. He did shoot well in his rookie season, and I've generally considered him pretty much vital for any Lakers offer that wants to be taken seriously, but the regression is still unpleasant to see.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Josh Hart shot 33.4% from three this year. No idea if Allonzo Trier cracks an 8 man rotation in future, but we're not trying to set up ''The Team''. What we have after this trade should be some key pieces that we want to keep long term, sure, but a lot of the peripherals are stop-gap solutions and filler names. It doesn't matter if Allonzo Trier cracks an 8 man rotation on a serious contending team, because we won't BE a serious contending team, and when we are one in three years and we're still trying to play Trier, then we have bigger problems.

Part of the reason I feel slightly more confident with Trier moving forward than Hart is FT shooting. All other things equal, good shooter are usually pretty good FT shooters. Hart shot 70% from the line his rookie season, and 68% this season. Trier shot 80.3% from the line this season, which isn't elite but is much better. Obviously different number of attempts, still, but the FT stroke is the one which is usually the most consistent throughout a career.

I like Josh Hart. He did shoot well in his rookie season, and I've generally considered him pretty much vital for any Lakers offer that wants to be taken seriously, but the regression is still unpleasant to see.

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Josh Hart's only in his second year. He's only one year older than Trier. His rookie year he shot more 3s and at a higher percentage than Trier. We also have a pretty good sample size of Josh Hart from playing 4 years in the Big East. Trier meanwhile, goes undrafted because of off the court issues, including a PED suspension while at Arizona. I''m still trying to figure out how you throw Trier in to make the point that the Knicks could give you a shooter in your previous post, and completely forget about Hart?

Trier and Hart are that meme of the two spidermen pointing at each other, only Hart won a lot in college and doesn't have the questionable character concerns.

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Josh Hart's only in his second year. He's only one year older than Trier. His rookie year he shot more 3s and at a higher percentage than Trier. We also have a pretty good sample size of Josh Hart from playing 4 years in the Big East. Trier meanwhile, goes undrafted because of off the court issues, including a PED suspension while at Arizona. I''m still trying to figure out how you throw Trier in to make the point that the Knicks could give you a shooter in your previous post, and completely forget about Hart?

Trier and Hart are that meme of the two spidermen pointing at each other, only Hart won a lot in college and doesn't have the questionable character concerns.

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I had Hart on my fantasy team this year. So how do the Pelicans go about getting Hart without having to take any of the rest of that stuff from the Lakers? :hihi: :D

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Originally Posted by NMThreeMVP

Josh Hart's only in his second year. He's only one year older than Trier. His rookie year he shot more 3s and at a higher percentage than Trier. We also have a pretty good sample size of Josh Hart from playing 4 years in the Big East. Trier meanwhile, goes undrafted because of off the court issues, including a PED suspension while at Arizona. I''m still trying to figure out how you throw Trier in to make the point that the Knicks could give you a shooter in your previous post, and completely forget about Hart?

Trier and Hart are that meme of the two spidermen pointing at each other, only Hart won a lot in college and doesn't have the questionable character concerns.

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You're being silly again, NM. ''a higher percentage than Trier''. He shot 39.6% in comparison to Trier's 39.4%. It's a higher percentage by the tiniest, of tiniest, of tiny margins. They both shot within 0.2% of each other, I wouldn't be throwing around superlatives.

I don't care who got drafted or at which spot. Once you're in the NBA, what matters is your NBA production, and Hart and Trier have produced at very similar levels as rookies, and then Hart declined in basically all categories in his second year.

I mentioned Trier to make a point about the Knicks because he shot 39% this year. I DIDN'T mention Hart because I was looking at their roster (to make sure I didn't miss any players, like Caruso, for example, who shot much better but played too few games to hit the 50% mark) and Hart only shot (like I said) 33.6% this year. So I left him off, cause I was looking at THIS YEAR'S production, and he DIDN'T PRODUCE.

Not really sure how this is a shocking ''gotcha'' for you.

"Ball, plus free throw shooting, would have been a top 20 player in 1975."



^ That is just a throwaway line but he'd be nowhere near top 20 in 1975. There were a lot of great players in those years. Here's the 1974 and 1975 all star game rosters. Just in these groups there are over 25 players far better than Lonzo regardless of ft%. There were many other guys who didn't make the game who were also better.


https://www.basketball-reference.com.../NBA_1974.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../NBA_1975.html


Then add a lot of these guys: https://www.basketball-reference.com.../ABA_1975.html

If we get ball we should just trade him to phoenix for the #6 pick and draft Darius Garland or Coby White. PG situation handled.

What about AD to the ROCKETS? 3 team trade

PELS receive: Clint Cappela, PJ Tucker, Aaron Holiday

PACERS receive Eric Gordon

ROCKETS receive: AD and 2 future 2nd round picks from the PELS.

The trade would have to be adjusted for Indiana to take Gordon’s salary. I think this is a realistic trade.




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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

If we get ball we should just trade him to phoenix for the #6 pick and draft Darius Garland or Coby White. PG situation handled.

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Not a big fan of either.

Garland shot fantastically at a college level, but he doesn't play a lick of defense, he only played a handful of games before getting injured, and his actual shot release is pretty suspect. His guide hand does very little.

Coby White's wingspan is pretty negligible although he does have good height. Not as good a shooter as Garland, and not a great defender either: has a weirdly thin torso and narrow shoulders that will limit him on that side of the ball.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

What about AD to the ROCKETS? 3 team trade

PELS receive: Clint Cappela, PJ Tucker, Aaron Holiday

PACERS receive Eric Gordon

ROCKETS receive: AD and 2 future 2nd round picks from the PELS.

The trade would have to be adjusted for Indiana to take Gordon’s salary. I think this is a realistic trade.




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So you basically want to trade AD and two picks for Clint Capella. With all due respect, hate it.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

What about AD to the ROCKETS? 3 team trade

PELS receive: Clint Cappela, PJ Tucker, Aaron Holiday

PACERS receive Eric Gordon

ROCKETS receive: AD and 2 future 2nd round picks from the PELS.

The trade would have to be adjusted for Indiana to take Gordon’s salary. I think this is a realistic trade.




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This a joke?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Not a big fan of either.

Garland shot fantastically at a college level, but he doesn't play a lick of defense, he only played a handful of games before getting injured, and his actual shot release is pretty suspect. His guide hand does very little.

Coby White's wingspan is pretty negligible although he does have good height. Not as good a shooter as Garland, and not a great defender either: has a weirdly thin torso and narrow shoulders that will limit him on that side of the ball.

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Who you think @ #6 if that trade happened?

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

If we get ball we should just trade him to phoenix for the #6 pick and draft Darius Garland or Coby White. PG situation handled.

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There are reasons why Phoenix would do that, and it’s because there are real doubts about those guys too.

I like Garland better than most, but he had a negative assist-to-turnover ratio, lacks point guard skills and feel, there are real finishing concerns, he has a small frame and is going to struggle on D.

White has many of the same concerns (is taller, but slight and doesn’t play his listed height) but lacks Garland’s special qualities as a shooter and is less impressive as a ball-handler. He is bigger and faster.

I don’t hate either guy as a prospect, but I wouldn’t expect either to be a winning basketball player until late in their rookie deal.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

What about AD to the ROCKETS? 3 team trade

PELS receive: Clint Cappela, PJ Tucker, Aaron Holiday

PACERS receive Eric Gordon

ROCKETS receive: AD and 2 future 2nd round picks from the PELS.

The trade would have to be adjusted for Indiana to take Gordon’s salary. I think this is a realistic trade.




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Single worst AD trade I’ve seen. Why are the Pels giving up picks here?

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Originally Posted by Pels4Life

Who you think @ #6 if that trade happened?

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If you're desperate for a good guard, there isn't really one better than Garland or White, which is really depressing. Part of the reason Morant's stock is so high is that there are very, VERY, few good guards in this draft class.

If you're going to just draft for talent, and ignore position, then there's a few decent names.

Kevin Porter Jr, could be a decent shout. He's 6'5, probably the third best athlete in the draft class after Zion and Brandon Clarke, pretty good steal percentage which projects well as a defender. He definitely has the frame for it, with his 6'10 wingspan. At 41.2% from three, there's some promise in his three point shot. The scary part on that is that he's only a 55% FT shooter, which is very very risky. Poor FT abilities usually translate to poor 3pt shooting, so there's some contradiction in his game there.

If Brandon Clarke doesn't go at #5, he could be a good pick too. Has absolutely no shooting range, which is super scary. Negative wingspan is ugly too. He's very high IQ and he's a skilled defender, has great bounce, but I don't think he'd work too well for our team. Would make for great lobs though.

I'm a big fan of Grant Williams. He's a little older, at 21, but he's 6'6 with a 6'10 wingspan, is a fantastic passer for a big man. Always makes the right pocket pass, and he'd pair well with Zion since they both make great interior passing look easy. He's a very solid defender. Draws fouls very well, and is an excellent free throw shooter: not very good from deep though. Like, 31% bad.

Again, if we're chasing a big to pair with Zion, I wouldn't mind Jaxson Hayes too much. 7'0, 7'3 wingspan, moves like a wing. And that's a positive and a negative: the positive is that he's extremely fluid, will make a fantastic rim runner and rim protector. Pair him with Zion and nobody scores on us inside. He has good hip movement too which could translate to decent perimeter defense. The downside is this: as a big, he's extremely raw. Hasn't mastered that passing on the roll that's so valuable from bigs at an NBA level, and he's awkward as a shooter. He had a big growth spurt and it's clear he's using the mechanics of a smaller man when he tries to shoot, it looks unpleasant. Not a great rebounder either. Still, he's very young and because of his growth spurt he also hasn't had time to get bad habits so he could go well there.

It's a real bad draft for guards. You either luck out with Morant, or you take Garland, White, or Ponds, bite your tongue, and pray.

One thing some of you are not considering. Some young players with talent improve in their NBA careers.

I understand the concerns, there are many, about Ball and Ingram. Ingram’s numbers suffered when he played with Lebron. He had to make an awkward adjustment. If he improves, he’s 21 years old, he could be worth the risk. He will bring plenty of offense and if he can improve 3 point shooting and defense the PELS get a young SF that will be a star. He didn’t have a few great games by accident. He consistently showed improvement in his ability to score against elite defenders. The kid is 21. I bet some of you will be eating your words if we get him and he does well. There’s a ton of potential for him to be a very good player. There’s a risk but I think it’s worth it. So many people on here bashed Jrue for years. Then out of nowhere you jump on the bandwagon when he’s healthy and playing great ball. Get Ingram out of LA and I bet he’s in a much better environment with his Duke brothers Zion, Okafor, Frank Jackson. Plus you got a great humble leader in Jrue Holiday and a coaching staff that would probably be a better fit for him.
Gentry > Walton. In fact Gentry > Vogel and Kidd.

You can move Lonzo if you don’t want him. I’d consider this trade: Ingram, Ball, Kuzma and the 4th pick. Keep Ball and let us see how the team does. Draft Hunter or Culver. One or 2 of these players will work out. We can move Kuzma and/or Ball for a different player.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/3/...ghts-breakdown


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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

One thing some of you are not considering. Some young players with talent improve in their NBA careers.

I understand the concerns, there are many, about Ball and Ingram. Ingram’s numbers suffered when he played with Lebron. He had to make an awkward adjustment. If he improves, he’s 21 years old, he could be worth the risk. He will bring plenty of offense and if he can improve 3 point shooting and defense the PELS get a young SF that will be a star. He didn’t have a few great games by accident. He consistently showed improvement in his ability to score against elite defenders. The kid is 21. I bet some of you will be eating your words if we get him and he does well. There’s a ton of potential for him to be a very good player. There’s a risk but I think it’s worth it. So many people on here bashed Jrue for years. Then out of nowhere you jump on the bandwagon when he’s healthy and playing great ball. Get Ingram out of LA and I bet he’s in a much better environment with his Duke brothers Zion, Okafor, Frank Jackson. Plus you got a great humble leader in Jrue Holiday and a coaching staff that would probably be a better fit for him.
Gentry > Walton. In fact Gentry > Vogel and Kidd.

You can move Lonzo if you don’t want him. I’d consider this trade: Ingram, Ball, Kuzma and the 4th pick. Keep Ball and let us see how the team does. Draft Hunter or Culver. One or 2 of these players will work out. We can move Kuzma and/or Ball for a different player.

https://www.sbnation.com/nba/2019/3/...ghts-breakdown


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You're totally right and you have convinced me.

We should trade our top 5, 26 year old player for a couple of guys who COULD potentially be good IF they gain multiple new skills and completely re-work at least half of their game, IF they get healthy, IF they learn to play winning basketball, and a couple of mediocre picks in a bad draft.

How could I have been so blind?

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Originally Posted by HornetGuru

This a joke?

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Clinton Cappella is a VERY good player. He’d fit great with our team. He’s young and on a 5 year contract. He can play defense, rebound and score. He’s very athletic. He’s a star level big man and can have a big impact on the game. He’s on a good contract for 5 years.

PJ Tucker is a vet SF who plays elite defense and is a very good 3 point shooter. Can’t complain.

Aaron Holiday is likely to be a good pg very young Jrue’s brother and could be the icing on the cake if it works out....,

Remember, there would have to be some adjustments for Indy to take Gordon. We would get another player/players to make it work.




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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

You're totally right and you have convinced me.

We should trade our top 5, 26 year old player for a couple of guys who COULD potentially be good IF they gain multiple new skills and completely re-work at least half of their game, IF they get healthy, IF they learn to play winning basketball, and a couple of mediocre picks in a bad draft.

How could I have been so blind?

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Actually, I think you are blind and unrealistic. That’s ok. Boston isn’t going to give us what you think they will. No way. Sorry.


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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

You're totally right and you have convinced me.

We should trade our top 5, 26 year old player for a couple of guys who COULD potentially be good IF they gain multiple new skills and completely re-work at least half of their game, IF they get healthy, IF they learn to play winning basketball, and a couple of mediocre picks in a bad draft.

How could I have been so blind?

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The 4th pick in this draft, if the PELS scouting is excellent, could be a star player. It’s not far fetched at all. Getting Ball and moving him to PHX is very realistic. 4th and 6th picks plus Kuzma and Ingram might not excite you but there are so many possible moves we can make if we did this trade. Add Hart and 2 future 1st and there’s no way I’d turn that down.


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geezus Christ the trades keep getting worse and worse huh?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

You're totally right and you have convinced me.

We should trade our top 5, 26 year old player for a couple of guys who COULD potentially be good IF they gain multiple new skills and completely re-work at least half of their game, IF they get healthy, IF they learn to play winning basketball, and a couple of mediocre picks in a bad draft.

How could I have been so blind?

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Ingram isn’t far from being a potential future star. Put a little more weight on him and improve shooting. Those 2 things often occur for YOUNG players as they develop in this league. You think 2 years in the league is enough to determine a player’s limitations?




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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

The 4th pick in this draft, if the PELS scouting is excellent, could be a star player. It’s not far fetched at all. Getting Ball and moving him to PHX is very realistic. 4th and 6th picks plus Kuzma and Ingram might not excite you but there are so many possible moves we can make if we did this trade. Add Hart and 2 future 1st and there’s no way I’d turn that down.


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Any pick in any draft COULD be a star player if the scouting is good enough. That doesn't change the fact that the odds of getting a good player decrease considerably as you work your way down the the numbers, and this draft is notoriously poor. Now, I personally quite like Culver at 4, so I'm not saying that getting #4 would guarantee a bad player. It wouldn't. I'm just saying if you can trade for #3 (which is obviously on the table from NY) then you take #3 over #4 every day of the week.

You have no idea how realistic getting Ball and moving him to Phoenix is. We've heard rumours that Phoenix loves him, and we've also heard rumours that neither Phoenix nor Chicago would move their picks for him. Which is true? Neither of us knows. Let's say we make your trade and then neither Phoenix nor Chicago want him. Then what? We move him to Minnesota for 11? Or to Brooklyn for #17?

Add Hart, who is AT BEST the 4th most valuable asset in an AD trade, to Kuzma (who is 23 years old, shoots 30% from three and plays no defense) and Ingram (who can't shoot either, can't shoot free throws, can't play defense, and isn't a very good passer) and sure, you can be as happy as you like, but I don't like it and I'd be stunned if David Griffin did.

How good are the future firsts going to be from LA which has Lebron and AD, and could possibly acquire someone like Jimmy Butler this summer? Bad, is the answer. They'll be like, in the #18-#23 range.

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Originally Posted by bahmamamba

geezus Christ the trades keep getting worse and worse huh?

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Tomorrow someone's going to come in and suggest trading AD and the #1 pick straight up to the Spurs for Jakob Poeltl, the corpse of Lamarcus Aldridge and #19

Y’all are gonna probably eat your words. Lol Teams can easily say: “AD is a one year rental and could bolt after the 2019/2020 season. Plus he’s injury prone. We live AD and he’s the best there is in this league right now but we can’t give up everything you expect us to give.”

Teams will have leverage. Y’all think we will get whatever we want just because AD is a superstar. It’s just not the case. In fact, another point they’ll use against us is “he’s going to walk and this is our best offer.”


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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Tomorrow someone's going to come in and suggest trading AD and the #1 pick straight up to the Spurs for Jakob Poeltl, the corpse of Lamarcus Aldridge and #19

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you're joking but I can see it happening lol

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Y’all are gonna probably eat your words. Lol Teams can easily say: “AD is a one year rental and could bolt after the 2019/2020 season. Plus he’s injury prone. We live AD and he’s the best there is in this league right now but we can’t give up everything you expect us to give.”

Teams will have leverage. Y’all think we will get whatever we want just because AD is a superstar. It’s just not the case. In fact, another point they’ll use against us is “he’s going to walk and this is our best offer.”


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you're right bc the few teams that do want him Def won't put together their best packages to beat the other teams I mean that's just unheard of [emoji849]

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Y’all are gonna probably eat your words. Lol Teams can easily say: “AD is a one year rental and could bolt after the 2019/2020 season. Plus he’s injury prone. We live AD and he’s the best there is in this league right now but we can’t give up everything you expect us to give.”

Teams will have leverage. Y’all think we will get whatever we want just because AD is a superstar. It’s just not the case. In fact, another point they’ll use against us is “he’s going to walk and this is our best offer.”

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If teams say to us ''AD is a one year rental and could bolt, and he's also injury prone.''

We say ''AD hasn't had a serious injury in legitimately years. Kawhi Leonard just came back from missing a YEAR due to injury and has taken Toronto to the finals. That's why you trade for a superstar. You don't want a finals trip? Fine, someone else will.''

Imagine thinking that you should accept half a tube of pringles and some cold coffee in exchange for AD just because someone might throw a hissy fit and not offer it to you tomorrow. Get your standards up. Get some self respect here. We hold the leverage: we have the hot commodity, we have him under contract, we get to choose who takes him, and there are MULTIPLE teams interested (at least 3, potentially as many as half the league if we're going to believe Kyler (I know, spurious)).

If you're selling your car and someone comes up and says ''here, I've got $20. You might as well take it, maybe you won't get any other offers at all.'' Then you don't take the $20, you tell them to hit the road.

We are starting to hit some rediculous levels here...

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

We are starting to hit some rediculous levels here...

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The desperation has apparently set in, for some.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Any pick in any draft COULD be a star player if the scouting is good enough. That doesn't change the fact that the odds of getting a good player decrease considerably as you work your way down the the numbers, and this draft is notoriously poor. Now, I personally quite like Culver at 4, so I'm not saying that getting #4 would guarantee a bad player. It wouldn't. I'm just saying if you can trade for #3 (which is obviously on the table from NY) then you take #3 over #4 every day of the week.

You have no idea how realistic getting Ball and moving him to Phoenix is. We've heard rumours that Phoenix loves him, and we've also heard rumours that neither Phoenix nor Chicago would move their picks for him. Which is true? Neither of us knows. Let's say we make your trade and then neither Phoenix nor Chicago want him. Then what? We move him to Minnesota for 11? Or to Brooklyn for #17?

Add Hart, who is AT BEST the 4th most valuable asset in an AD trade, to Kuzma (who is 23 years old, shoots 30% from three and plays no defense) and Ingram (who can't shoot either, can't shoot free throws, can't play defense, and isn't a very good passer) and sure, you can be as happy as you like, but I don't like it and I'd be stunned if David Griffin did.

How good are the future firsts going to be from LA which has Lebron and AD, and could possibly acquire someone like Jimmy Butler this summer? Bad, is the answer. They'll be like, in the #18-#23 range.

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You have no idea what the 4th pick might actually do for the PELS. Seriously. It’s a coveted pick. RJ could be way better than Culver but I wouldn’t be surprised if Culver was the best player in this draft. Definitely has proven himself to be worth taken at 4. Also, building a team with through the draft is a very smart thing to do especially if you have good scouting and a little bit of luck.

You mention the 18-23 range for future firsts. You actually think that’s not so valuable? Again, your arguments are not as strong as you think. You have little confidence in the PELS staff to evaluate talent and develop players.

Look at teams that have done well. They DRAFT well. GSW drafted Curry, Thompson and Draymond.

Denver drafted Murray and Jokic...

OKC drafted Harden, Westbrook, Durant, Ibaka etc

Getting young players that clearly have talent, Ingram and Ball, plus draft picks is not irrational.

You must hate the LAKERS. Btw, PHX would certainly consider trading the 6th pick for Lonzo. Lonzo is elite in transition offense, his defense is way above average compared to other guards with 2 years in league. His athleticism and his passing skills are undeniable. He’s able to hit 3s. Also, he’s got very high bbiq. How often does he go to the FT line? I don’t like his stat 42% at FT line but he was 60 something percent in college. Stay healthy and he’s a damn good pg.

I think you are overconfident. Maybe you think we will get the 14th pick, Tatum, Brown, and Smart plus the 20th and 22nd picks. If that’s on the table then obviously it’s a much better deal.


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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

You have no idea what the 4th pick might actually do for the PELS. Seriously. It’s a coveted pick. RJ could be way better than Culver but I wouldn’t be surprised if Culver was the best player in this draft. Definitely has proven himself to be worth taken at 4. Also, building a team with through the draft is a very smart thing to do especially if you have good scouting and a little bit of luck.

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I'd be pretty damned surprised if Culver was the best player in this draft. Shocked, to be honest. It would knock my socks off.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

You mention the 18-23 range for future firsts. You actually think that’s not so valuable? Again, your arguments are not as strong as you think. You have little confidence in the PELS staff to evaluate talent and develop players.

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I agree that building through the draft is a good thing. That's the method I've been proposing since February. That's why to me, getting the best prospective draft picks matters: because it doesn't matter how much you yell about scouting, the fact remains that having a higher pick is always better. There's a reason that the #1 pick spot has produced more MVPs and champions than any other draft position, and it's because when you're picking #1, you get first choice. The second best pick after #1 is obviously #2. Therefore, YES, I think it matters if we get pick the #12 in a few years rather than pick #22. That's why I prefer the future Memphis pick, for example, or the Dallas picks NY has, over the Lakers pick: because PICKS MATTER.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

You must hate the LAKERS. Btw, PHX would certainly consider trading the 6th pick for Lonzo.

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How do you know that? Where's your source? The leaks have been contradictory and mixed. Unless you have some special access to info that the rest of us don't, you have NO IDEA whether the Suns would trade #6 for Lonzo, and you're just guessing.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

He’s able to hit 3s.

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No he isn't, next point.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

How often does he go to the FT line? I don’t like his stat 42% at FT line but he was 60 something percent in college. Stay healthy and he’s a damn good pg.

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I'm not going over this again. Read the last few pages of the thread if you want more talk about how Lonzo Ball is one of the worst free throw shooters of all time. He doesn't go to the FT line often cause he's scared to drive and he's so terrible at threes nobody bothers to defend him. There are multiple clips from this year of Lonzo toeing up at the FT line and his defender just walks away from him. There's video of Jrue switching onto Lonzo and then legit just turning around and walking away. In fact, here's the video:

We need to talk about how the Pelicans totally disregarded Lonzo ball as a shooting threat last night. They flat out refused to even make attempts to contest most of his shots. Look at Jrue just turning his back. pic.twitter.com/KcmwEzA3I8

— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) March 23, 2018

Just disgusting.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

The 4th pick in this draft, if the PELS scouting is excellent, could be a star player. It’s not far fetched at all. Getting Ball and moving him to PHX is very realistic. 4th and 6th picks plus Kuzma and Ingram might not excite you but there are so many possible moves we can make if we did this trade. Add Hart and 2 future 1st and there’s no way I’d turn that down.


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yea #1, #4, and #6 is a home run. Granted i still like the #3 with knicks but throwing phoenix in with that ball trade is swaying me. It does seem a very realistic trade as phoenix is in need for it and it seems ball would like to go there so win win maybe.

If the KNICKS offered the 3rd pick and Robinson, Knox and Dennis Smith Jr plus two future 1sts I think that would be the best deal long term.

I love this.

https://youtu.be/nmTuSeREVqo


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Just while I'm posting Lonzo getting ignored by the defense clips:

I mean the Pelicans don't even PRETEND to care about Lonzo. Down right disrespectful pic.twitter.com/0vsEu7J8a5

— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) March 23, 2018

This is one of my favourites. He's at the top of the key, with the ball, wide open. No defenders around for 15 feet in ANY direction.

Brick.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

You have no idea what the 4th pick might actually do for the PELS. Seriously. It’s a coveted pick. RJ could be way better than Culver but I wouldn’t be surprised if Culver was the best player in this draft. Definitely has proven himself to be worth taken at 4. Also, building a team with through the draft is a very smart thing to do especially if you have good scouting and a little bit of luck.

You mention the 18-23 range for future firsts. You actually think that’s not so valuable? Again, your arguments are not as strong as you think. You have little confidence in the PELS staff to evaluate talent and develop players.

Look at teams that have done well. They DRAFT well. GSW drafted Curry, Thompson and Draymond.

Denver drafted Murray and Jokic...

OKC drafted Harden, Westbrook, Durant, Ibaka etc

Getting young players that clearly have talent, Ingram and Ball, plus draft picks is not irrational.

You must hate the LAKERS. Btw, PHX would certainly consider trading the 6th pick for Lonzo. Lonzo is elite in transition offense, his defense is way above average compared to other guards with 2 years in league. His athleticism and his passing skills are undeniable. He’s able to hit 3s. Also, he’s got very high bbiq. How often does he go to the FT line? I don’t like his stat 42% at FT line but he was 60 something percent in college. Stay healthy and he’s a damn good pg.

I think you are overconfident. Maybe you think we will get the 14th pick, Tatum, Brown, and Smart plus the 20th and 22nd picks. If that’s on the table then obviously it’s a much better deal.


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I think you are selling short. That isn't overconfident; it's understanding that AD is a highly desirable commodity and that there will be multiple attractive offers on the table. When there is a bidding war, prices go up, not down because of potentially negative factors. If anything, it means that when Griffin is dealing, he can always give an interested team the impression that another deal is on the table that could be more attractive. If a team wants AD, they KNOW they are going to have to pay a lot.

I agree that the draft is an attractive way to build a team, but it should be considered the prime motivation in building a championship roster. Often players needed to develop that kind of team are only going to become available through trades or free agency.

I do hate the Lakers. But if the Lakers deal blew every other deal out of the water, I would trade AD to the Lakers in spite of my reservations. However, I do not see a scenario in which the Lakers can accrue enough assets prior to the draft in order to craft a deal that would do that. It would need to be at least a three team trade and those are fairly hard to construct. In the end, the chances that the Lakers can create a deal that blows all of the other trades out of the water are incredibly slim. If I am Griffin, I don't want Ball and the Ball family sideshow, so that deal has to me made in advance and bring at least equal value to the deal as Ball would. I also don't want Kuzma and his lack of defense to be my primary sub for when Zion isn't on the court, so they would need to move him for equal value. Even if I liked Ingram enough to be the deal's headliner coming back (and I don't), I would have to be totally convinced that his health issues are behind him and that his lack of development to this point were related to coaching and scheme and not the player. I don't know how Griffin can come to that conclusion without serious reservations. If totally healthy, Ingram would be a nice second or third piece in an AD trade, but not THE guy.

I may very well be overconfident in the type of deal that the Pelicans will be able to extract from a team for AD. But IMHO it takes some serious mental gymnastics to make the Lakers deal into something that the Pelicans should consider the best offer. I have said it before -- even though I don't want to trade AD to a team in the West, if I were Griffin, I would trade him to the Lakers if they were able to trade all of the their assets for players the Pelicans actually want and can use plus enough picks that it hurts.

Looks like there is two players out of all the trades that 100% of the board would be happy about that’s Tatum or Barrett so let’s just narrow it down to those two teams and get a deal done and move on somebody call Griffin and let him know .


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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Just while I'm posting Lonzo getting ignored by the defense clips:

I mean the Pelicans don't even PRETEND to care about Lonzo. Down right disrespectful pic.twitter.com/0vsEu7J8a5

— Shamit Dua (@FearTheBrown) March 23, 2018

This is one of my favourites. He's at the top of the key, with the ball, wide open. No defenders around for 15 feet in ANY direction.

Brick.

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Can someone post this on repeat on r/nba. Everyone keeps downplaying Lonzo shooting... maybe because people haven't seen him play since January. I remember that game since last year. I've never seen an NBA player go from THAT bad to being actually good.