Thunder vs Pelicans : Game 4 Playoffs! GAMEDAY THREAD!

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

End of the series.

Brandon Ingram averages over 4 games: 14.3pts, 4.5rbds, 3.3asts per game with 2.3TOs and on 45%TS (19/55 FG, 2/8 from 3, 17/19 FT)

God-awful showing. Not one legitimately decent game from him.

$50m a year though.

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People keep saying 50 mil a year and I would like to know if there is any source for this number at all, or are you guys just growing things out there?

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

People keep saying 50 mil a year and I would like to know if there is any source for this number at all, or are you guys just growing things out there?

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He will want a max contract. And he'll get it because that's what players make at his level of play. Whether fans like it or not.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

@Pelicanidae.. I think you get what I'm saying.. but again. Forget about the name Ingram. This is his label. 2B.

A championship contender needs a 1A which is what Zion is. I would say Dame, and AD are 2A types.. Lavine, Siakam, Paul George, are 2B types.. I want Zion 1A with two 2B types, or a 2A, and 2B if lucky. So it's not about an attachment to Ingram. It's about holding on to that kind of talent because the odds of getting it through free agency is slim.

As I said before, Bron said he had trouble getting guys to join him on the Cavs. Some teams just aren't free agent destinations for major talent.

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And I'm saying that I do not care.

If you keep BI, you are not getting anyone else because you are going to be over the second apron and hard capped IMMEDIATELY. That alone makes even trading CJ harder, because we won't be able to take any money back beyond what we send out, which means we'll have to ship out a bunch of picks that we no longer have because Griff wasted the war chest, so we'd have to gut the future draft just to move CJ to get a guy who likely won't be much better than CJ already is.

I've said it time and again and my position has not changed: I do not see any justification to hard-cap this team in order to keep together a squad that has won nothing. Nothing at all. You spend and go into the luxury tax to keep Denver together, or Golden State, not a perennial play-in team that has won zero playoff series in five years.

I don't know how many times I need to tell you that the ''you won't get another guy on his level!'' argument means nothing to me. I don't care. I would rather have 2 guys who are only 80% as good as Ingram but who actually fit and who actually play the offensive scheme.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Ingram isn't a superstar. No one calls him that.

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Well then they (Pels) shouldn't pay him like one and trade him fro whatever they can get.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

That's a you problem. I've seen it, I guarantee you multiple other people on this board have seen it too.

The number of people who have spent the last several years saying we need to trade Zion and build around BI cause he's the real star is absurd. ''I haven't seen it'' doesn't mean it's not real.

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Great post!

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

People keep saying 50 mil a year and I would like to know if there is any source for this number at all, or are you guys just growing things out there?

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His max contract this off-season is the 30% max. At the incoming salary cap, that would make his pay:

Year 1 of the new contract: $49,375,623
Year 2: $53,325,672
Year 3: $57,275,722
Year 4: $61,225,772

Assuming the standard 8% annual increases.

It's the same contract that KAT is on, but starting later and starting with the new salary cap and therefore being even higher.

good call. its not about how good someone is its whether they fit with the 1A.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

He will want a max contract. And he'll get it because that's what players make at his level of play. Whether fans like it or not.

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Name one player who, coming off a contract in which they made zero All-NBA, All-Defense, or All-Star teams, and who have won zero playoff series in their life, got paid the 30% max.

Edit; the closest you can get is Beal, who had gotten 1 All-NBA appearance in the prior few years, and he's widely regarded as one of the worst contracts in basketball.

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Originally Posted by dvdman

Well then they (Pels) shouldn't pay him like one and trade him fro whatever they can get.

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Maybe you aren't up on salaries but non superstars make 50Mil a year in the NBA.

The arena is gonna be real empty if there arent big changes. I'm getting these games for FREE and can barely stand to watch them. I can only imagine paying for overinflated parking, concessions, tickets, etc.

It's pretty simple. If Griff can't see that Zion and Mr Contested ISO Middy are a horrible fit for spacing then he is the wrong man for the job. On top of that, the "player's coach" has zero movement in his offense, can't scheme up any easy shots, has no idea that he needs to develop young players during the year so they will be ready during the playoffs, has no idea how to create mismatches with switches, etc..

It's been a painful 5 years, and if the front office can't learn from their mistakes and cut bait then they will have to deal with the coming fallout.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Name one player who, coming off a contract in which they made zero All-NBA, All-Defense, or All-Star teams, and who have won zero playoff series in their life, got paid the 30% max.

Edit; the closest you can get is Beal, who had gotten 1 All-NBA appearance in the prior few years, and he's widely regarded as one of the worst contracts in basketball.

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Someone already posted a graphic of about 14 guys in another thread. He makes what guys at his level make. No debating that.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

And I'm saying that I do not care.

If you keep BI, you are not getting anyone else because you are going to be over the second apron and hard capped IMMEDIATELY. That alone makes even trading CJ harder, because we won't be able to take any money back beyond what we send out, which means we'll have to ship out a bunch of picks that we no longer have because Griff wasted the war chest, so we'd have to gut the future draft just to move CJ to get a guy who likely won't be much better than CJ already is.

I've said it time and again and my position has not changed: I do not see any justification to hard-cap this team in order to keep together a squad that has won nothing. Nothing at all. You spend and go into the luxury tax to keep Denver together, or Golden State, not a perennial play-in team that has won zero playoff series in five years.

I don't know how many times I need to tell you that the ''you won't get another guy on his level!'' argument means nothing to me. I don't care. I would rather have 2 guys who are only 80% as good as Ingram but who actually fit and who actually play the offensive scheme.

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You don't care and that's fine.. Zion won't care to play for a squad of that make-up. And once he leaves, those two guys you trade Ingram for are leaving as well.

With that being said, we can agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Someone already posted a graphic of about 14 guys in another thread. He makes what guys at his level make. No debating that.

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The answer is that you actually can't, because nobody has ever gotten the 30% max in that scenario. BI currently makes about the same amount as his companions, I'm talking about the proposed next contract.

The only players currently in line to make over $50m per season over the life of their current contract are Steph Curry, AD, Giannis, Jaylen Brown, Lillard, KAT, Booker, Jokic, Embiid, and Beal.

That's 4 MVPs, 6 guys who have played in the finals, 8 guys who have made All-NBA teams in the last few years, and all of them were All-Stars for the last several years in a row.

The one guy who is glaringly out of line with everyone else there is Beal, and even he's made one All-NBA team in his life. And even still he's regarded as a horrible contract.

BI has zero of those accomplishments, he would be the first person to ever get paid a contract which averaged over $50m a year who had never made an All-NBA team, ever.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Maybe you aren't up on salaries but non superstars make 50Mil a year in the NBA.

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i just had a quick look. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings...ort/cash_total

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The answer is that you actually can't, because nobody has ever gotten the 30% max in that scenario. BI currently makes about the same amount as his companions, I'm talking about the proposed next contract.

The only players currently in line to make over $50m per season over the life of their current contract are Steph Curry, AD, Giannis, Jaylen Brown, Lillard, KAT, Booker, Jokic, Embiid, and Beal.

That's 4 MVPs, 6 guys who have played in the finals, 8 guys who have made All-NBA teams in the last few years, and all of them were All-Stars for the last several years in a row.

The one guy who is glaringly out of line with everyone else there is Beal, and even he's made one All-NBA team in his life. And even still he's regarded as a horrible contract.

BI has zero of those accomplishments, he would be the first person to ever get paid a contract which averaged over $50m a year who had never made an All-NBA team, ever.

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Let's not act like, there aren't players down the pike that are going to get the same compensation Ingram is getting. No matter how you shake it, players of Ingrams caliber are going to get max contracts.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Let's not act like, there aren't players down the pike that are going to get the same compensation Ingram is getting. No matter how you shake it, players of Ingrams caliber are going to get max contracts.

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maybe so but lets not be the ones that pay it.

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Originally Posted by AussieHornet

i just had a quick look. https://www.spotrac.com/nba/rankings...ort/cash_total

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Thank you.. So we don't have to act like Ingram is some outlier. That list is about to get bigger.

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Originally Posted by AussieHornet

maybe so but lets not be the ones that pay it.

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That's fine if you dont want to pay it. I get why. But Pelicanidae is acting like it would be something unusual.

Shaq lost his mind, and there was a lot of talk among the professional pundits when Gobert got his big deal. It seemed excessive but that's just what the league pays now.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

That's fine if you dont want to pay it. I get why. But Pelicanidae is acting like it would be something unusual.

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I just explained why it would be unusual. Your defense is ''well, it probably won't be unusual in a couple of years'' to which I say that I don't care. Saying that you should make a mistake now just because someone else is likely to make a similar mistake later is absurd.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Shaq lost his mind, and there was a lot of talk among the professional pundits when Gobert got his big deal. It seemed excessive but that's just what the league pays now.

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To a multiple time All-NBA, All-Defense, DPOY centre.

Not to a guy who has never made an all-league team in his life.

Your logic is flawed, and you're trying to muddle the convo with the technicalities of the contract. Bottomline. Ingram will be making what players of his caliber make yearly. Everyone here sees that. They may not want to pay him that amount, but we all know that's what players in his tier make.

Nichols let another team pay him that after he gets traded

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Originally Posted by Mount_Zion

Nichols let another team pay him that after he gets traded

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That's fine if you feel that way. After this performance I totally get the sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Hey, Jordan Hawkins minutes!

Miracles do happen.

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He played a whopping 4 minutes. Is that what Willie meant about getting more shooting into the lineup?

He allowed one player to break him for an entire series. I don't think I've ever seen that before. Not saying it's never happened, but I can't remember seeing it for an entire series. I've seen guys get locked up for a game or two then figure it out. But Ingram had no answer for Dort.

My biggest problem with him is that he didn't funnel his energy into helping the team in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Maybe you aren't up on salaries but non superstars make 50Mil a year in the NBA.

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Name them. Again, Beal is the only one I can think of and he is borderline untradable.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Your logic is flawed, and you're trying to muddle the convo with the technicalities of the contract. Bottomline. Ingram will be making what players of his caliber make yearly. Everyone here sees that. They may not want to pay him that amount, but we all know that's what players in his tier make.

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I think what people are saying is that IF that is his cost/value, it needs to be somewhere other than New Orleans.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

Your logic is flawed, and you're trying to muddle the convo with the technicalities of the contract. Bottomline. Ingram will be making what players of his caliber make yearly. Everyone here sees that. They may not want to pay him that amount, but we all know that's what players in his tier make.

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No he won't. He'll be earning significantly more. I've listed the players who make that much and their accolades. I asked a simple question: can you name another player, EVER, who has received a 30% max but who has never been, during the length of their previous contract, a member of a single All-NBA, All-Defense, or All-Star team?

It was a simple question. You ducked it multiple times, talking about what other players might get paid a few seasons from now. I'm not talking about cash value. I say $50m a year because it puts it in easier to understand numbers but the important part is the percentage of the cap. 30% max. Can you name another player who has ever been given a 30% max in Ingram's position.

The answer is no. So when you say ''he will be making what players of his calibre make'', you are straight up incorrect. He will be making more of the cap than any other player of his level has ever made.

Your argument is basically that other players WILL get paid that money at some point in the next few years, so it's okay to pay him it now, in these circumstances.

I know you're a Lakers fan originally and pretty new to the Pelicans, so you may not get this reference, but maybe you will. By 2018, 2019 ish, roleplayers getting $15m a year was normal. Does that mean it was okay for us to give Solomon Hill that contract in 2016? After all, the league moved on and players of his calibre did start getting that contract eventually, only a couple of years later.

I guarantee you, anyone who was a Pelicans fan in 2016 and remembers that just had nightmare flashbacks over Solomon Hill's 2016 contract. And they'll remember the trouble that caused. And it wasn't even a 30% max.

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Originally Posted by PELICANSFAN

Name them. Again, Beal is the only one I can think of and he is borderline untradable.

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Two links have been posted boss. There's quite a few guys making what he makes now, that are in the same tier as him production wise. Those same players will continue to make what he makes. He's a 2B player. He will get max contracts. Just like any other 2B player.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

No he won't. He'll be earning significantly more. I've listed the players who make that much and their accolades. I asked a simple question: can you name another player, EVER, who has received a 30% max but who has never been, during the length of their previous contract, a member of a single All-NBA, All-Defense, or All-Star team?

It was a simple question. You ducked it multiple times, talking about what other players might get paid a few seasons from now. I'm not talking about cash value. I say $50m a year because it puts it in easier to understand numbers but the important part is the percentage of the cap. 30% max. Can you name another player who has ever been given a 30% max in Ingram's position.

The answer is no. So when you say ''he will be making what players of his calibre make'', you are straight up incorrect. He will be making more of the cap than any other player of his level has ever made.

Your argument is basically that other players WILL get paid that money at some point in the next few years, so it's okay to pay him it now, in these circumstances.

I know you're a Lakers fan originally and pretty new to the Pelicans, so you may not get this reference, but maybe you will. By 2018, 2019 ish, roleplayers getting $15m a year was normal. Does that mean it was okay for us to give Solomon Hill that contract in 2016? After all, the league moved on and players of his calibre did start getting that contract eventually, only a couple of years later.

I guarantee you, anyone who was a Pelicans fan in 2016 and remembers that just had nightmare flashbacks over Solomon Hill's 2016 contract. And they'll remember the trouble that caused. And it wasn't even a 30% max.

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There are such things as bad contracts. They're handed out every off-season. Regardless of the hit on a prospective teams cap, some players are max players, nothing you have to say will change that. We can talk about this till the return of Christ. Ingram will get max, and any other player with his talent level. Zion hadn't accomplished much, and there was talk about not giving him a max. I was of the same mind at that time. You have to pay him.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

There are such things as bad contracts. They're handed out every off-season. Regardless of the hit on a prospective teams cap, some players are max players, nothing you have to say will change that. We can talk about this till the return of Christ. Ingram will get max, and any other player with his talent level. Zion hadn't accomplished much, and there was talk about not giving him a max. I was of the same mind at that time. You have to pay him.

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We are now at the stage where you're basically just saying yeah, it's a bad contract but you have to give him it anyway because he's a max player.

When he is demonstrably not worth that money.

You're justifying paying him it because you have to pay him it. Well, why do you have to pay him it? Because he's a max player. Is he? Well, he's gonna get paid like it so, sure. Bad contracts are handed out every off-season. Nothing you can do about it. Just gotta give him the max. Cause he's asked for it, players like him always get it.

It's circular logic and it's garbage, and it's not even true because you're asking him to be given an unprecedented contract for a player of his resume. And before you claim that there are others, I have looked at the spotrac link you're referencing when PELICANSFAN asked and it's the same list of the same players I mentioned, all of whom have superior resumes to BI. Perennial all-stars who regularly make All-League teams, multiple champions and Finals MVPs, MVPs and DPOYs, and you're acting like them getting paid that money justifies it going to BI. What a joke.

So we're at the point we're you're straight up relying on circular logic and dishonesty. Ridiculous stuff going on here.

On a positive note, we've probably just seen Naji Marshall's last game as a Pelican. Shout outs to him, he's grown massively, become a real player, and whatever you can say about his limitations as a roleplayer that's a guy who has never once been out-toughed in a game or quit on his team. Absolute legend.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

We are now at the stage where you're basically just saying yeah, it's a bad contract but you have to give him it anyway because he's a max player.

When he is demonstrably not worth that money.

You're justifying paying him it because you have to pay him it. Well, why do you have to pay him it? Because he's a max player. Is he? Well, he's gonna get paid like it so, sure. Bad contracts are handed out every off-season. Nothing you can do about it. Just gotta give him the max. Cause he's asked for it, players like him always get it.

It's circular logic and it's garbage, and it's not even true because you're asking him to be given an unprecedented contract for a player of his resume. And before you claim that there are others, I have looked at the spotrac link you're referencing when PELICANSFAN asked and it's the same list of the same players I mentioned, all of whom have superior resumes to BI. Perennial all-stars who regularly make All-League teams, multiple champions and Finals MVPs, MVPs and DPOYs, and you're acting like them getting paid that money justifies it going to BI. What a joke.

So we're at the point we're you're straight up relying on circular logic and dishonesty. Ridiculous stuff going on here.

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You're saying it's a bad contract. I'm not. I'm saying 2b players get max contracts. Like it or not, that's what they get. And that's an outright lie to say all of those guys on that list have superior resumes.

Odd for you to accuse me of being dishonest while you blatantly lie. Even other posters in this thread who don't want Ingram back don't agree with the lie you just told.

jamal murray just finished the lakers off hobbling with a calf injury . scores over 30. that is fight.

See you fellas next season (really in a month or two). My Dallas Stars have evened up their series so I may have some good sports happening the next month or so. I love the Pelicans but it can be hard to watch the NBA at times when a pure league like the NHL is going on. The NBA is just.....not what it used to be.

But anyway, we're a great team. There isn't a team left in the playoffs that would win another game without their top player. How we fix the health issue, I don't know. But it's the key.

Love you guys!

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Originally Posted by AussieHornet

jamal murray just finished the lakers off hobbling with a calf injury . scores over 30. that is fight.

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A player that doesn't have a really bad shot profile, that can shoot 3's. That also has his superstar 1A on the floor.

Watching his war with Donavan Mitchell while he was with Utah showed me everything I needed to see with him. He's a baller.

It’s really time to modernize this team. Get Zion and 4 defenders and shooters on the floor. I don’t care if the team is less talented on paper, need to get younger and smarter to ever have a chance of winning anything. I’d rather be a lottery team than lock in this core.

Herb’s the only guy on the team I really feel bad for. That guy should be winning titles somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

You're saying it's a bad contract. I'm not. I'm saying 2b players get max contracts. Like it or not, that's what they get. And that's an outright lie to say all of those guys on that list have superior resumes.

Odd for you to accuse me of being dishonest while you blatantly lie. Even other posters in this thread who don't want Ingram back don't agree with the lie you just told.

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Name them. I've asked you again and again. Name them. Name the player who has received a 30% maax with a resume like Ingram's. No all-NBA, no all-defense, no MVP votes, no DPOY votes, no all-star appearances in the life of his current contract, no playoff series wins. Name them.

You can't. You keep referring to that list, but the only people on that list with a 30% max have those things. The closest equivalent is Beal and he has an all-NBA appearance, and he's still considered a bad contract.

That's why I accuse you of being dishonest. I ask a straight up question, you deflect by referring to a list of people as though they answer it when they do not, and then you say I'm lying to claim that Steph Curry, KAT, Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis have better resumes than Brandon Ingram?

Your argument is a joke, but it isn't very funny.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Exactly.

The reality is that BI is more than a player for Griff. He's a symbol. As long as we have BI and he's putting up 20ppg in the regular season, Griff got something for the AD trade. He didn't lose.

The minute we move BI, that's Griff giving away the last tangible asset from that trade, while the Lakers still have AD and are still making moves. It's an ego thing for Griff. He can't concede that defeat.

On top of that, Griff has spent years at this point preaching that he's all about family and good people. He likes BI, pretty much every report has said as much and every insider has confirmed it; they get along. Griff would have to publicly set fire to his entire multi-years long messaging campaign to move BI without BI demanding a trade.

He doesn't have it in him to do that. He spoke extensively when he came to the Pels about how he hated being a cut-throat exec in Cleveland and never wanted to do it again. He's not going to make that move now, cutting BI off, shipping him out, his friend, his symbol of success from the LA trade, when we just won 49 games.

He's got too many excuses. Injuries happened. We didn't have Zion in the playoffs. BI was still injured. We just didn't shoot the ball well. Got unlucky and matched with the 1 seed in the first round.

I hope and hope that Griff realises what has to be done and has the courage to do it. I do not believe he will, at all.

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He can always just trade Ingram to a team desperate to contend. Ingram would probably thank him if he got to go to Philly or Miami. Griff has things out of his control here. You can?t pay everyone so tough choices have to be made regardless. Is paying Ingram to where Griffin can?t pay guys he actually drafted like Trey a better alternative for his ego or culture?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Name them. I've asked you again and again. Name them. Name the player who has received a 30% maax with a resume like Ingram's. No all-NBA, no all-defense, no MVP votes, no DPOY votes, no all-star appearances in the life of his current contract, no playoff series wins. Name them.

You can't. You keep referring to that list, but the only people on that list with a 30% max have those things. The closest equivalent is Beal and he has an all-NBA appearance, and he's still considered a bad contract.

That's why I accuse you of being dishonest. I ask a straight up question, you deflect by referring to a list of people as though they answer it when they do not, and then you say I'm lying to claim that Steph Curry, KAT, Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis have better resumes than Brandon Ingram?

Your argument is a joke, but it isn't very funny.

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You need to ignore the troll. That’s what Nichols is. Ingram is obviously not worth a max contract. Any idiot could see that. That makes him worse than an idiot. Let’s hope the Pels trade BI, so our buddy Nichols can take his man-crush and muck up another team’s message board with his drivel.

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Originally Posted by pr1840

You need to ignore the troll. That’s what Nichols is. Ingram is obviously not worth a max contract. Any idiot could see that. That makes him worse than an idiot. Let’s hope the Pels trade BI, so our buddy Nichols can take his man-crush and muck up another team’s message board with his drivel.

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I don't know who you are, but as you can see everyone else here is having a conversation about the team. I'm doing my best not to make it clear to you just how much of a dimwit you are. How bout you ignore me, and let the rest of us grown ups talk huh?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Name them. I've asked you again and again. Name them. Name the player who has received a 30% maax with a resume like Ingram's. No all-NBA, no all-defense, no MVP votes, no DPOY votes, no all-star appearances in the life of his current contract, no playoff series wins. Name them.

You can't. You keep referring to that list, but the only people on that list with a 30% max have those things. The closest equivalent is Beal and he has an all-NBA appearance, and he's still considered a bad contract.

That's why I accuse you of being dishonest. I ask a straight up question, you deflect by referring to a list of people as though they answer it when they do not, and then you say I'm lying to claim that Steph Curry, KAT, Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis have better resumes than Brandon Ingram?

Your argument is a joke, but it isn't very funny.

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This is why you're a liar, and you frame arguments by creating strawmen. Who in their right mind would say Ingram is better than the guys you mentioned? Did you see others on that list? I know you did. Don't play dumb. I know you've seen them. Just like everyone else. The consensus was there were at least 5 guys that Ingram was better than. I was on the high side with 9. One could argue 9 was a bit generous, and I'd say fine. If we went with only 5, that would still prove my point. Ingram type players get max contracts. Your 30% caveat only serves to make your point. One that doesn't matter because players like Ingram get max contracts. Nothing you say will change that. Everyone here knows this.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

I don't know who you are, but as you can see everyone else here is having a conversation about the team. I'm doing my best not to make it clear to you just how much of a dimwit you are. How bout you ignore me, and let the rest of us grown ups talk huh?

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I’ve already clearly articulated why paying BI a max contract is a horrible idea, as have several other people. In fact, I want you to show me one other person on those forum that is supporting the idiocy that you’re spewing. You chose to ignore the logic and experience of those who have followed this team long before you showed up. Patience is the virtue of the fans of a small market team. So I will patiently wait until both you and BI are gone and we can once again discuss the (realistic) future possibilities of this team without having to scroll through your fanboy posts.

Just say you don't want to pay him a max and leave it there. But you can't make an argument that he shouldn't get a max deal because time and time again, that's what players with his production get.

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Originally Posted by pr1840

I’ve already clearly articulated why paying BI a max contract is a horrible idea, as have several other people. In fact, I want you to show me one other person on those forum that is supporting the idiocy that you’re spewing. You chose to ignore the logic and experience of those who have followed this team long before you showed up. Patience is the virtue of the fans of a small market team. So I will patiently wait until both you and BI are gone and we can once again discuss the (realistic) future possibilities of this team without having to scroll through your fanboy posts.

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I've got great news for you. You don't have to wait. Just ignore my posts. Problem solved.

Even the NBA on TNT crew pointed out how awful Ingram has become right now

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Originally Posted by Pelifan

It’s really time to modernize this team. Get Zion and 4 defenders and shooters on the floor. I don’t care if the team is less talented on paper, need to get younger and smarter to ever have a chance of winning anything. I’d rather be a lottery team than lock in this core.

Herb’s the only guy on the team I really feel bad for. That guy should be winning titles somewhere.

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Or just play your draft picks and know how to rotate them. Working well for OKC. 2nd youngest team in NBA

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Originally Posted by 13 - 3

Even the NBA on TNT crew pointed out how awful Ingram has become right now

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I've said the same. And I agree with all the criticisms of his game. I even take it a step further. He doesn't even make an effort to help his team win when he's not scoring.

For me it's not about Ingram, it's about getting two fringe all-star types to play with Zion. If you can move Ingram, and CJ to do that I'm all for it.

I'm just not interested in surrounding Zion with really good role players. I know he won't stay if that's the case. That team isn't good enough to get past the Wolves, OKC, Clipps, and maybe a few other bottom feeders. It also wouldn't be fair to Zion.

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Originally Posted by Nichols

I've said the same. And I agree with all the criticisms of his game. I even take it a step further. He doesn't even make an effort to help his team win when he's not scoring.

For me it's not about Ingram, it's about getting two fringe all-star types to play with Zion. If you can move Ingram, and CJ to do that I'm all for it.

I'm just not interested in surrounding Zion with really good role players. I know he won't stay if that's the case. That team isn't good enough to get past the Wolves, OKC, Clipps, and maybe a few other bottom feeders. It also wouldn't be fair to Zion.

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Most logical post you’ve made yet. And I wholeheartedly agree. But the difference may be how you view other players that BI could be traded for. I think Dejounte Murray is fairly close to BI and is certainly not a “role player.” Maybe you view him differently. If so, please let us know why.