November 25th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Utah Jazz - 9-7

You can’t take these ones for granted. The Jazz are full of snide and specifically take joy in beating us. If you get horribly outworked, you lose these games. Bad teams will try to make you play on their level.

Lost the 4th quarter 37 - 23 to a team missing it's top two scorers.

Then you force BI to play 37 minutes. If Zion plays no starter plays more than 28 minutes and everybody is resting most of the 4th.

The wisdom of this no back-to-backs while still without CJ and Trey is highly questionable. Especially when the NBA's own research says rest does not prevent injury.

Yea this was a pretty embarrassing loss. Can't lie.

again, the jazz showed the pelicans that this is still the NBA, shorthanded or not.......

i dont know why they put dyson in those situations where he has to be force to take a clock ending shot...ingram should have taken the 3 instead of passing it to dyson....team came out not focus and took this game as an easy W thinking the jazz would lay down....

this game remind me of when the t-wolves beat us with about 6 players on their roster, 2 or 3 seasons ago lol

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Lost the 4th quarter 37 - 23 to a team missing it's top two scorers.

Then you force BI to play 37 minutes. If Zion plays no starter plays more than 28 minutes and everybody is resting most of the 4th.

The wisdom of this no back-to-backs while still without CJ and Trey is highly questionable. Especially when the NBA's own research says rest does not prevent injury.

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Sure you could blame Zion because you always do, or you could acknowledge that the Jazz sat their top 2 players, and expect our star to be able to put this away.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Lost the 4th quarter 37 - 23 to a team missing it's top two scorers.

Then you force BI to play 37 minutes. If Zion plays no starter plays more than 28 minutes and everybody is resting most of the 4th.

The wisdom of this no back-to-backs while still without CJ and Trey is highly questionable. Especially when the NBA's own research says rest does not prevent injury.

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I find this we can't let our 23 yr old not play ANY B2B's even though we are stupidly shorthanded the most ridiculous thing I ever heard. Play him this game due to CJ, Trey, Ryan being out. But not being flexible is stupid

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

Sure you could blame Zion because you always do, or you could acknowledge that the Jazz sat their top 2 players, and expect our star to be able to put this away.

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Who blamed Zion? Is it his unilateral decision to not play? Who said that?

Your incessant stupidity following my posts needs to stop. It really does.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Who blamed Zion? Is it his unilateral decision to not play? Who said that?

Your incessant stupidity following my posts needs to stop. It really does.

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I was thinking the same thing.

I put this loss squarely on the shoulders of WG. How he allowed Jose' to dribble out the clock several times in the 4th is baffling. How LNJ is even on the court is unexplainable.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Who blamed Zion? Is it his unilateral decision to not play? Who said that?

Your incessant stupidity following my posts needs to stop. It really does.

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Stop being dishonest. Your ridiculous obsession with cheerleading BI over Zion is absurd. If we need Zion to beat a trash Utah team that sat it’s best two players, then that’s not on Zion and it’s not on the organization trying to prevent an injury to their injury proned star. It’s on the guys that played that game.

AGAIN....Defense wins games. How many layups did we miss in the first half as a result of the Jazz challenging.

Truly, this game should have been put away in the first half. Instead, we let an over-matched opponent hang around and humiliate us.

SIDEBAR: Fred Vinson should have every Pelican at some high school gym in SLC tomorrow morning, working on Free Throws. 61% won't cut it.

Saying the loss is "inexcusable" - while acknowledging several very reasonable and relevant excuses - is puzzling. Yes, they were without 2 top scorers; we were also without Zion, CJ, Trey, and Matt on a west-coast BTB which clearly affected us in the 4th.

I agree it was still a bad loss for many reasons (one being settling for a 3 from Dyson at the end.. we had to find Jordan or BI there, or just drive the paint earlier), but "inexcusable" it wasn't.

I also agree it's puzzling to rest Zion but play BI for nearly 40 minutes. (To me, Ingram is the one we should be more careful with to begin with).

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Originally Posted by As I See It

AGAIN....Defense wins games. SIDEBAR: Fred Vinson should have every Pelican at some high school gym in SLC tomorrow morning, working on Free Throws. 61% won't cut it.

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I'd let them sleep in first, but yeah that's insane for an NBA team. If it keeps up, it'll continue to cost us close games.

If Markhennan and Clarkson are back monday, won't matter if Zion plays. Will be another really tough game.

Good news is CJ's return is imminent and Trey should be back in less than 2 weeks. Those 2 come back you can rest Zion all you want. The timing of healthy scratches now just reeks.

Dyson still isn't ready for this increased load.

Where has it been said Trey will be back in 2 weeks? That would be great.

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Originally Posted by donato

Where has it been said Trey will be back in 2 weeks? That would be great.

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Thats just me basing it off his original timeline. Return to basketball activities was in 10 - 12 weeks. The 10th week mark was Nov 16th and he returned to those activities on schedule.

Also looks like he's already moving laterally. So, 2 weeks or fewer is my guess.

Sitting Zion was pure idiocy. We are not good enough to be sitting healthy young players just because it's a back to back. We put ourselves behind the 8 ball by doing dumb things like this and then we can never catch up at the end of the season. EVERY DAMN SEASON. If it's not actual injury then it is us being scared of an injury. WTF is this team doing. The Jazz are awful.

This is some kind of joke… This game should be over after 3 quarter … Poor efford , that one is players fault…

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Originally Posted by Mrakar

Cant like what i see. They are turning it over(Dyson 6 steals at the half), they can't buy a 3 and we are only up by 10. If they get hot this can get out of hands really quickly.
Herb back-to-back with foul trouble, has to be better than that.
I have bad feeling about these games...

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It is just bull********, every year same ********. We played against G-League team and we allow ourselves to lose it even though it is so important. Classic Pelicans bull********, no other way to say it.
We should have had 20+ at the half, but we fooled around, played like high school team, missed layups, turnovers, poor shot selection, and ofc basketball gods will punish you. They starte hitting shots and its GG...

There is no excuse, our coaching staff should prepare video material of us loosing these games over and over again and show it before the game and ask our players if they want to do it again.
This is how you end up in play-in instead of play-offs. ********!


Funny thing is that next game they will probably have Markkanen and Clarkson back and we will loose that one also and ******** on everything good we did last week.

While we are at good news, Doncic injured his hand and will probably not play against Rockets on Tuesday, so our IST hopes are vanishing....But we deserved it after this preformance...
Also big chance Markkanen and Clarkson are playing tomorrow. Maybe we can use that to get our ******** together, but if i was betting man i would say we are loosing that one bcs of karma...

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Originally Posted by neworleanshoo

Saying the loss is "inexcusable" - while acknowledging several very reasonable and relevant excuses - is puzzling. Yes, they were without 2 top scorers; we were also without Zion, CJ, Trey, and Matt on a west-coast BTB which clearly affected us in the 4th.

I agree it was still a bad loss for many reasons (one being settling for a 3 from Dyson at the end.. we had to find Jordan or BI there, or just drive the paint earlier), but "inexcusable" it wasn't.

I also agree it's puzzling to rest Zion but play BI for nearly 40 minutes. (To me, Ingram is the one we should be more careful with to begin with).

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It’s inexcusable because it was a low IQ loss. Not sure if it’s the fault of the coaching staff or player. But if the issue is this is a travel, back 2 back at a high altitude, how about having and executing a game plan that won’t have us completely gassed in the 2nd half. We tried to run and gun at the beginning, played with a fast pace that was just begging for a 2nd half collapse.

Start the game by getting it to Jonas in the block and playing off of him. Instead Jonas becomes an after thought, and when we finally do get him the ball he’s so out of rhythm he’s out of sorts. Than in the second half BI goes into stat hunting mode, completely ignoring a wide open Hawkins on at least two possessions so he can get his. Then somehow our offense becomes so bogged down that the ball keeps getting into Dyson’s hands where he has to shoot.

If we’re hell bent on treating this like an exhibition game then we should have also rested BI and used this game to further develop Hawkins.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

It’s inexcusable because it was a low IQ loss. Not sure if it’s the fault of the coaching staff or player. But if the issue is this is a travel, back 2 back at a high altitude, how about having and executing a game plan that won’t have us completely gassed in the 2nd half. We tried to run and gun at the beginning, played with a fast pace that was just begging for a 2nd half collapse.

Start the game by getting it to Jonas in the block and playing off of him. Instead Jonas becomes an after thought, and when we finally do get him the ball he’s so out of rhythm he’s out of sorts. Than in the second half BI goes into stat hunting mode, completely ignoring a wide open Hawkins on at least two possessions so he can get his. Then somehow our offense becomes so bogged down that the ball keeps getting into Dyson’s hands where he has to shoot.

If we’re hell bent on treating this like an exhibition game then we should have also rested BI and used this game to further develop Hawkins.

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BI is so selfish!!! Never mind the eight real assists or the other 13 potential assists that went undone, he just doesn't pass the ball enough. I mean, he only led the league (tied w/Tyrese Halliburton) in potential assists in his last game, but as you say, that's not good enough. He needs to learn how to share the ball more but won't because, in his mind, it's all about him.

I whole-heartedly support the trade suggestion of BI and draft consideration to Chicago for Zach LaVine. LMAO!!!

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Originally Posted by As I See It

BI is so selfish!!! Never mind the eight real assists or the other 13 potential assists that went undone, he just doesn't pass the ball enough. I mean, he only led the league (tied w/Tyrese Halliburton) in potential assists in his last game, but as you say, that's not good enough. He needs to learn how to share the ball more but won't because, in his mind, it's all about him.

I whole-heartedly support the trade suggestion of BI and draft consideration to Chicago for Zach LaVine. LMAO!!!

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I keep hearing you propose that trade, but do you think Chicago would want that? They’d probably want a couple of firsts, Trey and Herb. That would be a bit too high.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

I keep hearing you propose that trade, but do you think Chicago would want that? They’d probably want a couple of firsts, Trey and Herb. That would be a bit too high.

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Just do it...anything to get rid of BI, eh? I'd love to get my hands on that black hole, wouldn't you? Life time 20.6 / 4.0 / 3.9. besides we'd have awesome 6'5" forward bookends. Imagine the matchups...I'm salivating.

LMAO!!!

Did anyone actually suggest we trade BI for LaVine?

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Originally Posted by donato

Did anyone actually suggest we trade BI for LaVine?

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YUP!!

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Originally Posted by donato

Did anyone actually suggest we trade BI for LaVine?

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I would rather five away Ingram for nothing then trade him for LaVine.

I was BI hater, still am, but he showed a lot of improvement in shot selection last 6-7 games. I just want to see him keep it for longer time instead of going back to Demar Derozoan type of shots again.

Look at that selfish, stat hunting ************** smdh

Yikes!! Lotta potential assists on this screen. pic.twitter.com/AkVBm0mUAw

— Mike Cyprien (@CoachCyp_NOLA) November 26, 2023

Out of the 17 games that had a player achieve 21+ potential assists this month, only 3 of them resulted in <10 assists.

Chris Paul 23 potential vs 8 assists (game won)
Lamelo Ball 27 potential vs 6 assists (game won)
Brandon Ingram 21 potential vs 8 assists (game lost)

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Originally Posted by neworleanshoo

Saying the loss is "inexcusable" - while acknowledging several very reasonable and relevant excuses - is puzzling. Yes, they were without 2 top scorers; we were also without Zion, CJ, Trey, and Matt on a west-coast BTB which clearly affected us in the 4th.

I agree it was still a bad loss for many reasons (one being settling for a 3 from Dyson at the end.. we had to find Jordan or BI there, or just drive the paint earlier), but "inexcusable" it wasn't.

I also agree it's puzzling to rest Zion but play BI for nearly 40 minutes. (To me, Ingram is the one we should be more careful with to begin with).

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Why?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Sidebar: Zeller's stats, in limited minutes, are quite impressive.

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So, is passing to a wide open Dyson Daniels considered a “potential assist”? If so, please don’t bother me with this ridiculous stat.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

So, is passing to a wide open Dyson Daniels considered a “potential assist”? If so, please don’t bother me with this ridiculous stat.

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Any idea how silly you are making yourself look. Just say it....

"I will take every opportunity to point out flaws in BI's game; even if I have to make shiot up."

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Any idea how silly you are making yourself look. Just say it....

"I will take every opportunity to point out flaws in BI's game; even if I have to make shiot up."

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Sigh. There is a reason why you can’t just look at statistics (especially these type of stats) and decide if someone had a good game or a bad game. You have to look at how these “stats” were generated.

So, early in the game, passing the ball to an open Dyson Daniels with plenty of time on the shot clock is a good basketball play. Late in the game, passing the ball to a wide open Dyson Daniels with little time on the shot clock, forcing a guy who has bricked every outside shot he took into taking an outside shot is a bad basketball play. If both of these generate the same stat, then that is a worthless statistic. And the simple fact is this stat would have been generated with help from the opposing team who was inviting us to pass the ball to Dyson Daniels because they knew he wouldn’t hit the shot.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

Sigh. There is a reason why you can’t just look at statistics (especially these type of stats) and decide if someone had a good game or a bad game. You have to look at how these “stats” were generated.

So, early in the game, passing the ball to an open Dyson Daniels with plenty of time on the shot clock is a good basketball play. Late in the game, passing the ball to a wide open Dyson Daniels with little time on the shot clock, forcing a guy who has bricked every outside shot he took into taking an outside shot is a bad basketball play. If both of these generate the same stat, then that is a worthless statistic. And the simple fact is this stat would have been generated with help from the opposing team who was inviting us to pass the ball to Dyson Daniels because they knew he wouldn’t hit the shot.

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i understand what you are saying........i said in the game thread that i dont like that they put dyson in those positions where he has to shoot a last min/game winning shot......ingram should have shot the 3 instead of passing to dyson....

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

i understand what you are saying........i said in the game thread that i dont like that they put dyson in those positions where he has to shoot a last min/game winning shot......ingram should have shot the 3 instead of passing to dyson....

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Apparently the NBA defines a potential assist as a pass where the recipient takes a shot without dribbling the ball more than once. So technically, if you had Cody Zeller wide open outside the three point line and kept passing him the ball for three point shots that had no chance of going in, each of those would be potential assists. So it’s not exactly a good statistic to measure whether someone had a good or even unselfish game.
After all, I can always pass the ball to someone at the end of the shot clock who has to take a bad shot. And even if my motivation was to avoid taking the bad shot myself, that would still be a potential assist.

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Originally Posted by Freyfamilyreuni

Apparently the NBA defines a potential assist as a pass where the recipient takes a shot without dribbling the ball more than once. So technically, if you had Cody Zeller wide open outside the three point line and kept passing him the ball for three point shots that had no chance of going in, each of those would be potential assists. So it’s not exactly a good statistic to measure whether someone had a good or even unselfish game.
After all, I can always pass the ball to someone at the end of the shot clock who has to take a bad shot. And even if my motivation was to avoid taking the bad shot myself, that would still be a potential assist.

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It's tricky with stats, because there are a lot of them which imply things, very few that outright say things, and they lack context. I do think that generally speaking, potential assists are a decent way of eyeballing something - if you watch a game and think ''wow, X guy is generating a lot of good looks'' the odds are that the potential assists number will agree, but as you say, it can also be misleading.

Another statistic that I've seen used to try and work out if someone is ball hog or not is passes received VS passes made. I think that can be a helpful metric (to give an extremely hyperbolic example, if someone receives 100 passes in a game and makes 0, that guy is a black hole by definition) but again, it's kind of incomplete because it can give the impression that guys who are exclusively play finishers (run and jump bigs, for example) are selfish which isn't really the case, among other reasons.

A lot of tracking statistics are, I think, more helpful to double check your eye than to use as metrics in and of themselves; if you think you see something, check the numbers and maybe surprise yourself or be confirmed, rather than just looking at those numbers in isolation as ''proof'' of a claim.

Just for reference, over the last 7 games (in which we are 5-2) the following players have passed more times per game than they have received the ball:

- Dyson (+2.5 more made than received)
- Jonas (+9.8)
- Herb (+4.5)
- Naji (+1.5)
- Matt Ryan (+0.3)
- Nance (+6.0)
- Cody Zeller (+5.5)
- JRE (+3.2)

The following have received more passes than made:

- Ingram (+16.6 more passes received than made per game)
- Zion (+8.6)
- Hawkins (+2.4)
- Jose (+3.8)

Ingram is the only player on the team who receives more than 60 passes a game (60.7). Second most is Dyson (49.4).

Ingram also has the longest average possession time on the team (4.4 seconds per touch). Second most is Zion (3.9).

Alvarado currently has the most dribbles per possession during the 5-2 stretch, at 4.88. Second most is Zion at 3.16 - Ingram's third in this stat, at 3.09.

Zion leads the team in points per touch (.399), with Ingram second (.378).

Jonas leads the team in paint touches (6.9) with Zion second (4.2).

Zion and Nance are tied at points per paint touch (1.33), with Jonas second (1.04).

All of these numbers only apply to games played since November 13th, they're all taken from the NBA website, and it's worth noting that obviously not everyone has played the same number of games here. Ingram has played all 7, for example, Zion has played 5, and Larry only 3, for example.

Just interesting numbers imo.