BI or Zion: Who do you want the Pelicans to trade for Scoot?

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Originally Posted by As I See It

SURPRISE!!! SURPRISE!!!

Now that the Max Contract is in the bank, his true colors can be displayed.

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Yeah, let's trade BI!!!

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zion is not in position to demand where he want to go...so zion camp will not run his trade like AD camp did us....

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

No actual source here but

#Sources ? Zion Williamson and his camp reportedly prefer a change of scenery, specifically in New York. Pelicans will field trade calls through the NBA Draft, Thursday, June 22. #NBA

? NBATradeReport (@NBATradeReport) June 14, 2023

Its starting to seem real enough that now I am wondering what the trade would look like besides the pick.

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Not a source. Even someone like Jake Madison is laughing at it. That site posts fantasy trade ideas all day long (look at their timeline). Also, it is based out of NY.

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

zion is not in position to demand where he want to go...so zion camp will not run his trade like AD camp did us....

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You are right, and for the time being, the Pels can still get something valuable back from trading Zion. Wait another season or two though, and then it will not be Zion running his trade, but every team that the Pels try trading him to. Know what I mean? Y'all might even have to give up assets to get him off the books then.

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Originally Posted by LAL1947

You are right, and for the time being, the Pels can still get something valuable back from trading Zion. Wait another season or two though, and then it will not be Zion running his trade, but every team that the Pels try trading him to. Know what I mean? Y'all might even have to give up assets to get him off the books then.

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In two seasons, Zion will still have 3 years left on his contract which makes it more valuable if he's playing at all.

If he's not playing at all, there are provisions in Zion's contract that make it far cheaper than it seems - a lot of his money is unguaranteed and relates to games played. We don't know the exact details surrounding that - exactly how many games, exactly how much is unguaranteed - but it's something guys like Shamit have mentioned a lot in the past.

He also has unguaranteed money relating to his weight over the course of the deal.

Part of the reason Zion's contract is so good is that there are so many benefits in it for the team that holds it - he has basically none of the power. There's a ton of unguaranteed money, it's long term, and there are no options.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

It?s starting to seem real because rumors are coming from both sides, we have never seen that before

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You can't say that we're seeing rumours from both sides, because we have no idea where the rumours are coming from, because there's no source. That's what it means when there's no source.

In this case, the rumours appear to be coming from a Knicks fan's imagination.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

You can't say that we're seeing rumours from both sides, because we have no idea where the rumours are coming from, because there's no source. That's what it means when there's no source.

In this case, the rumours appear to be coming from a Knicks fan's imagination.

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Then surely # 1 will come out shortly and deny all this nonsense publicly, huh? I mean there is no reason to put New Orleans fans through this "bull"

Reading the tea leaves of snippets put out by the team over the past few years, I'd wager the FO is not looking to trade BI but would entertain an offer if the value were overwhelming (which Scoot isn't) but are on the fence about Zion so anything decent would be considered.

All we know for sure is that the Pels like Scoot and want to get him. Every other talking point about BI and Zion has been pure speculation. At the end of the day, I bet we end up keeping BI and Zion and not getting Scoot. 2nd most likely is we trade Zion for a package including Scoot. I don't think BI is even being discussed.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

Then surely # 1 will come out shortly and deny all this nonsense publicly, huh?

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Even players who do talk to the media never come out and publicly address rumours about them, let alone rumours with only 2000 likes posted by nobody Twitter accounts :hihi:

There is not a single player in the NBA that would ''come out'' to publicly address that tweet. Except maybe Kd, because he's got that itchy twitter finger.

A very likely scenario is that the Pels have no intentions of trading either Zion or BI for Scoot. They really could just be kicking the tires on a deal for a bunch of picks and some youth....which probably won't get the deal done but it's still a likely scenario.

So then these Zion rumors come out and the Pels PR tells Zion "we're not going to trade you. Just ignore this stuff for a few weeks and it will go away after the draft". It makes more sense to everyone not to address it.

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Originally Posted by msusousaphone

So then these Zion rumors come out and the Pels PR tells Zion "we're not going to trade you. Just ignore this stuff for a few weeks and it will go away after the draft". It makes more sense to everyone not to address it.

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That's the case for every player, not just Zion.

Anyone actually think that if that exact same tweet was made about BI, he'd suddenly be issuing statements? Not a chance. Players usually don't even respond to rumours by Woj and Shams, it would be absurd to expect a response for a semi-successful tweet from a nobody twitter account. Like, legitimately worrying for you to expect that. No connection to reality kind of thing.

I'm not saying you do, I'm just talking generally.

Is it possible to construct a 3 team trade where Zion goes to New York, JV goes to Charlotte with Dyson, and Mitchell Robinson comes to New Orleans. We throw in some draft picks and also get #2 to draft Scoot?

I found a trade that works using Spotrac:

Pels receive:

Mitchell Robinson
Gordon Hayward

Knicks receive:

Zion

Bobcats receive:

JV
Evan Fournier

Of course, there needs to be draft picks involved but you can't do that on Spotrac.

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Originally Posted by HorneyTexan

I found a trade that works using Spotrac:

Pels receive:

Mitchell Robinson
Gordon Hayward

Knicks receive:

Zion

Bobcats receive:

JV
Evan Fournier

Of course, there needs to be draft picks involved but you can't do that on Spotrac.

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Use Fanspo.com It's much better for trades.

My question would be (at least my first major question), why would Charlotte do that?

They'd essentially be trading Scoot for JV, which is not a move that makes any sense for them.

So, talked to a buddy who is a sports writer based in NYC who covers mainly college basketball but is pretty plugged in with the pros as well, especially on the business/management side. His take was that most of the trade chatter was not coming from the Pels at all, but from Charlotte which is trying to bid up offers from several teams for the #2 pick. But he also said a prominent agent told him Charlotte is legitimately interested in a deal for Zion, partly for basketball reasons, partly for team valuation reasons and partly for Nike marketing reasons. Wasn’t sure if serious talks had happened but had heard Michael Jordan was still a believer in Zion’s potential to be an MVP-level player. Take it fwiw…

What I'm telling my kids you said:

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Originally Posted by new city champ

So, talked to a buddy
and IT'S HAPPENING

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Originally Posted by new city champ

So, talked to a buddy who is a sports writer based in NYC who covers mainly college basketball but is pretty plugged in with the pros as well, especially on the business/management side. His take was that most of the trade chatter was not coming from the Pels at all, but from Charlotte which is trying to bid up offers from several teams for the #2 pick. But he also said a prominent agent told him Charlotte is legitimately interested in a deal for Zion, partly for basketball reasons, partly for team valuation reasons and partly for Nike marketing reasons. Wasn’t sure if serious talks had happened but had heard Michael Jordan was still a believer in Zion’s potential to be an MVP-level player. Take it fwiw…

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MJ probably think if Charlotte has Zion that he can drive up the asking price on the Hornets

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Originally Posted by rebelman

MJ probably think if Charlotte has Zion that he can drive up the asking price on the Hornets

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There are legitimate reasons to think Charlotte might be interested in both Zion and BI.

Zion has the MJ/Nike connection, and he's from there, and it might drive up the team value if he's looking to sell.

Ingram was drafted by Kupchak, who is the Hornets GM right now, and who has never stopped praising him whenever asked - and he's also from there, and pairing him with LaMelo would probably make the playoffs in the East, which would also drive up team value potentially.

There are connections for both players, in that sense. It's actually slightly funny, I've seen a bunch of people on Twitter saying that it makes sense to send Zion there because he's from NC, while completely ignoring that Ingram is also from NC :hihi:

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

There are legitimate reasons to think Charlotte might be interested in both Zion and BI.

Zion has the MJ/Nike connection, and he's from there, and it might drive up the team value if he's looking to sell.

Ingram was drafted by Kupchak, who is the Hornets GM right now, and who has never stopped praising him whenever asked - and he's also from there, and pairing him with LaMelo would probably make the playoffs in the East, which would also drive up team value potentially.

There are connections for both players, in that sense. It's actually slightly funny, I've seen a bunch of people on Twitter saying that it makes sense to send Zion there because he's from NC, while completely ignoring that Ingram is also from NC :hihi:

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Zion is from South Carolina

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Originally Posted by rebelman

Zion is from South Carolina

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He was born in Salisbury NC. I know he went to middle school at Marion but idk how much time was spent in NC before the SC began.

BREAKING: Michael Jordan is finalizing a sale of the Charlotte Hornets to a group led by Gabe Plotkin and Rick Schnall, ending his 13-year run as majority owner, league sources told ESPN on Friday. pic.twitter.com/5TonSrIQhF

— Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) June 16, 2023

MJ no longer Hornets owner, the ''MJ connection'' with Zion severed.

So all this much to do about nothing, kinda like being a Pels fan.

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Originally Posted by HorneyTexan

Bobcats receive:

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What year is it

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Originally Posted by luckyman

But BI is still only 25 and still hasn't reached his own peak yet. He is definitely a #1 option on a contender.

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In which world? Put him on the Nuggets, the Lakers, the Suns, the Warriors, the Bucks, the Celtics, the Heat, the Sixers. That's half the teams that made the playoffs this year. He would be the #1 option on NONE of them.

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

In which world? Put him on the Nuggets, the Lakers, the Suns, the Warriors, the Bucks, the Celtics, the Heat, the Sixers. That's half the teams that made the playoffs this year. He would be the #1 option on NONE of them.

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That's a misleading and very illogical way to go about it. In a merry go round, which of those team's #1 option would remain so on a different contender??

Is Jayson Taysom a #1 option on the Nuggets, Bucks, Warriors, Sixers, or Lakers? He'd remain so only on the Heat. But you'd have some folk who'd still prefer Jimmy Butler (not me).

Is Jimmy Butler the #1 option on any of those teams outside of maybe the Celtics? And his team that actually made the finals.

Is Steph the #1 option for the Nuggets, Lakers, Bucks, or 76ers?

Also BI has been in the worst situation of anybody on that list. So that really throws off the comps.

He's the one that's on a team still trying to build through the draft and has had his sidekick not play At ALL the last 2 years. How did that work out for Lebron?

When that was the case for Denver, even with a still better roster, how far did Jokic get?

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Jayson Taysom

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New favourite player, Jayson Taysom

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

New favourite player, Jayson Taysom

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We have a very popular football player named Taysom Hill. Football training season is in high gear.

Sue me.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

That's a misleading and very illogical way to go about it. In a merry go round, which of those team's #1 option would remain so on a different contender??

Is Jayson Taysom a #1 option on the Nuggets, Bucks, Warriors, Sixers, or Lakers? He'd remain so only on the Heat. But you'd have some folk who'd still prefer Jimmy Butler (not me).

Is Jimmy Butler the #1 option on any of those teams outside of maybe the Celtics? And his team that actually made the finals.

Is Steph the #1 option for the Nuggets, Lakers, Bucks, or 76ers?

Also BI has been in the worst situation of anybody on that list. So that really throws off the comps.

He's the one that's on a team still trying to build through the draft and has had his sidekick not play At ALL the last 2 years. How did that work out for Lebron?

When that was the case for Denver, even with a still better roster, how far did Jokic get?

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Comment wasn't about how FAR they would get. The comment was that BI would be the #1 option on those teams. No he wouldn't.

There's a hierarchy. Giannis would probably be the #1 on any team. Jokic would probably be the best player on any of those teams except the Bucks. Tatum may be the best player on any of those teams except the Bucks and Nuggets. As you move each step lower, the player would be the #1 on fewer and fewer of those teams. My point still remains, BI would be the #1 on NONE of them.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

We have a very popular football player named Taysom Hill. Football training season is in high gear.

Sue me.

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I just found it funny, don't take it seriously :hihi:

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

Comment wasn't about how FAR they would get. The comment was that BI would be the #1 option on those teams. No he wouldn't.

There's a hierarchy. Giannis would probably be the #1 on any team. Jokic would probably be the best player on any of those teams except the Bucks. Tatum may be the best player on any of those teams except the Bucks and Nuggets. As you move each step lower, the player would be the #1 on fewer and fewer of those teams. My point still remains, BI would be the #1 on NONE of them.

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Jokic > Giannis imo

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Jokic > Giannis imo

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I'd agree. I didn't pay much attention to who I listed. Was just trying to make the point. BI wouldn't be #1 on any of those teams.

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

I'd agree. I didn't pay much attention to who I listed. Was just trying to make the point. BI wouldn't be #1 on any of those teams.

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Yeah I mean, my opinions on BI are well known at this point so I don't have much to add there, just wanted to go on the record with my ''as of right now, Jokic is the best player alive'' take.

I don't believe for a second that a Scoot Henderson trade is dead. Until the 14th pick is made, all bets remain on the table. There is whole lot of posturing going on and apparently, somebody's read. "The Art of the Deal". Walk away and make them call you back to the table.

Lol

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Originally Posted by As I See It

I don't believe for a second that a Scoot Henderson trade is dead.

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Quoting from Shamit's latest substack post:

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I expect trade chatter to pick up within the next few days. Teams will be wrapping up their pre-draft workouts, if they have not finished already, and front offices will begin finalizing plans for Thursday night. Expect to hear more concrete details from Charlotte soon.

Speaking of Thursday, I do not expect any potential Henderson deal to be made prior to then. In fact, this may end up being a decision made on the clock.

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So yeah, no reason to expect the deal to be dead but also no reason to expect any move to happen for at least a few days. Both sides are probably waiting to see how things play out with other deals, see how other teams are reacting to things like the Beal situation, and both the Portland news and the MJ Hornets sale might change things slightly. Gonna be a few days at least.

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

Comment wasn't about how FAR they would get. The comment was that BI would be the #1 option on those teams. No he wouldn't.

There's a hierarchy. Giannis would probably be the #1 on any team. Jokic would probably be the best player on any of those teams except the Bucks. Tatum may be the best player on any of those teams except the Bucks and Nuggets. As you move each step lower, the player would be the #1 on fewer and fewer of those teams. My point still remains, BI would be the #1 on NONE of them.

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My comment wasn't about haw FAR they would get either. My point on that comment was it's hard to judge when the team you play on has too many issues. Plus BI has barely played himself.

Also, by what logic is the best player not the #1 option?? Not everybody is putting Tatum above players like Steph, Lebron, or Embiid. I'm not. And some may not even put him in front of Butler.

And even if you want to put BI at the back of the list, that still doesn't mean he isn't a #1 option on a contender. It's all relative and today's NBA has many contending worthy teams between each conference.


We just did this a few years ago, and BI has done nothing but prove me right with his play on the court.

All that's going to happen is that will continue.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

My comment wasn't about haw FAR they would get either. My point on that comment was it's hard to judge when the team you play on has too many issues. Plus BI has barely played himself.

Also, by what logic is the best player not the #1 option?? Not everybody is putting Tatum above players like Steph, Lebron, or Embiid. I'm not. And some may not even put him in front of Butler.

And even if you want to put BI at the back of the list, that still doesn't mean he isn't a #1 option on a contender. It's all relative and today's NBA has many contending worthy teams between each conference.


We just did this a few years ago, and BI has done nothing but prove me right with his play on the court.

All that's going to happen is that will continue.

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I listed the top 4 teams in each conference. If you didn't finish in the top four, you WEREN'T a contender. BI would NOT have been the #1 option on any contender this season. To be the #1 option, you're implying that if you replaced that team's CURRENT #1 option with BI, they would be better. That doesn't apply to any of the eight teams.

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

I listed the top 4 teams in each conference. If you didn't finish in the top four, you WEREN'T a contender. BI would NOT have been the #1 option on any contender this season. To be the #1 option, you're implying that if you replaced that team's CURRENT #1 option with BI, they would be better. That doesn't apply to any of the eight teams.

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Finishing in the top 4 has never delegated who's a contender and who's not.

Some teams have injury problems until the playoffs. Some dont get hot until post all-star break. Some years are simply more competitive than others where the top 6 might be considered contenders.

So let's stop making up our own definitions.

And player A doesn't have to be better than player B to remove a team from contention. Most would consider Tatum better than Butler. Make the swap and does Boston suddenly become a non-contender?

Replace Tatum with BI for Boston, are they suddenly a non-contender? He might even be a better fit for their lack of playmaking.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Finishing in the top 4 has never delegated who's a contender and who's not.

Some teams have injury problems until the playoffs. Some dont get hot until post all-star break. Some years are simply more competitive than others where the top 6 might be considered contenders.

So let's stop making up our own definitions.

And player A doesn't have to be better than player B to remove a team from contention. Most would consider Tatum better than Butler. Make the swap and does Boston suddenly become a non-contender?

Replace Tatum with BI for Boston, are they suddenly a non-contender? He might even be a better fit for their lack of playmaking.

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Now you're moving the goalpost with fit. Obviously fit changes thing. We're just talking pure talent. In none of those cases is BI the #1 option on the team. Can he be the #1 option on A team? Yes. If you send him to Charlotte, Houston, Indiana, Chicago, Utah, he's #1.

And when people talk about TRUE contenders in a given season, there's rarely more than 4-5 teams that have a legit shot. This year was actually an outlier where you had 8-9. I gave you the top 4 IN EACH CONFERENCE. Eight total. There's not more than that. Actually, I left out SAC and put GS in instead. Doesn't change the facts.

Even if BI is a low tier 1, the argument is there he's a high tier 2. So if you have two of those (we do) then that's pretty special. I think most would agree, BI/Zion is at least potentially a considerably higher ceiling than Tatum/Brown. I think the two of those should be enough to get a chip. What do you have around them?

That being said, it's hard to win if you don't see the floor and all the other craziness going on. I'm a bit pro on the Scoot trade idea still...

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Originally Posted by RobertM320

Now you're moving the goalpost with fit. Obviously fit changes thing. We're just talking pure talent. In none of those cases is BI the #1 option on the team. Can he be the #1 option on A team? Yes. If you send him to Charlotte, Houston, Indiana, Chicago, Utah, he's #1.

And when people talk about TRUE contenders in a given season, there's rarely more than 4-5 teams that have a legit shot. This year was actually an outlier where you had 8-9. I gave you the top 4 IN EACH CONFERENCE. Eight total. There's not more than that. Actually, I left out SAC and put GS in instead. Doesn't change the facts.

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I'm not moving any goalposts. I'm using your exact same argument nobody asked for.

You put BI on Boston, he's the #1 option and Boston remains a contender. Thats pretty straight forward and simple.

It was also relayed to me, via league sources, that the Pelicans did quietly hold some exploratory trade talks a year ago involving Zion Williamson during the 2022 offseason before agreeing to sign him to a five-year max rookie scale contract extension worth nearly $195 million. 8 hours ago – via Marc Stein @ marcstein.substack.com

We kinda knew this... right?

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Originally Posted by DroopyDawg

It was also relayed to me, via league sources, that the Pelicans did quietly hold some exploratory trade talks a year ago involving Zion Williamson during the 2022 offseason before agreeing to sign him to a five-year max rookie scale contract extension worth nearly $195 million. 8 hours ago – via Marc Stein @ marcstein.substack.com

We kinda knew this... right?

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Yeah, if you recall Zion signed the extension shortly after the Kd trade saga kicked off.

I can easily imagine that Griff made some calls at around that time to see what it would've taken to get durant, and I have no doubt that Zion's name would've come up.

Shamit posted similarly on twitter, I guess in response to Stein.

https://thespun.com/nba/new-orleans-...-with-pelicans

If this report is true, Zion doesn't want to be here and he's just biding time. He's never been a good fit for the culture the team is trying to build, and that's okay. Time to move off of him. Sometimes things just don't work out.

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Originally Posted by Dr. Sting

https://thespun.com/nba/new-orleans-...-with-pelicans

If this report is true, Zion doesn't want to be here and he's just biding time. He's never been a good fit for the culture the team is trying to build, and that's okay. Time to move off of him. Sometimes things just don't work out.

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Old news. It's already been addressed: it's not really true, and it's become increasingly less true recently. Pels sources are reporting that he seems more bought in and closer to the team than ever at the moment - he's one of the few Pels players who have stuck around in NOLA through the offseason so far, and to quote Shamit:

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It was relayed to me by someone close to the situation that Williamson appears more bought into New Orleans than ever before. There seems to be a sense that he genuinely wants to be in New Orleans

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When asked about the Windhorst quote directly, Shamit says:

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I do think the characterization of "no relationship" is inaccurate, but I don't think Windhorst is completely lying either. The truth is likely in the middle. What I do know is that there seems to be a greater effort from Zion's end to be involved lately.

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When there's smoke, there's usually fire.

But folks continue to tell you to not believe your 'lying eyes'.

```

Tell me. other than the Pelicans, is there another team that has dealt with so much 'drama' over the last four years?

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Originally Posted by luckyman

I'm not moving any goalposts. I'm using your exact same argument nobody asked for.

You put BI on Boston, he's the #1 option and Boston remains a contender. Thats pretty straight forward and simple.

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Are you saying replacing Tatum with BI, or BI and Tatum together? With Tatum, BI is not the #1. Replacing Tatum, of course he is.

My take on this whole thing is the law of averages has got to catch up as far as health goes, if we get 55 or better games out of both Zion and BI. If we do we are top 3 in the west. Selling low is always a bad move so I'm for keeping Z for one more yr at least. I like Scoot but, we are a pretty young team but not a big window cap-wise, is it wise to have to count on a rookie to come in and start quickly? Yes we need a PG, one that can come in and start. I would think a vet would be better for this team because it looks like Daniels is at least 2yrs away from that if he ever is

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Originally Posted by djrnno

My take on this whole thing is the law of averages has got to catch up as far as health goes, if we get 55 or better games out of both Zion and BI. If we do we are top 3 in the west. Selling low is always a bad move so I'm for keeping Z for one more yr at least. I like Scoot but, we are a pretty young team but not a big window cap-wise, is it wise to have to count on a rookie to come in and start quickly? Yes we need a PG, one that can come in and start. I would think a vet would be better for this team because it looks like Daniels is at least 2yrs away from that if he ever is

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BI is ascending as a playmaker and "point forward", so I dont see pg as a huge need unless it's one the caliber of Chris Paul. BI also has vastly improved as a clutch player. One of the best in the league last year. That again dampens the need for a pg.

Then you have to expect both Dyson (year 2) and Jose (year 3) to get better at that position.

So 'needs' look like big>>shooter>>pg in my opinion.

And if you still desperately want a pg and want to draft for need, you can go the much more attainable Cason Wallace route.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

When there's smoke, there's usually fire.

But folks continue to tell you to not believe your 'lying eyes'.

```

Tell me. other than the Pelicans, is there another team that has dealt with so much 'drama' over the last four years?

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Generally, where there?s smoke there?s fire. But this is the NBA. The conversation is dominated by pundits whose job is to play fantasy basketball with the 8-10 elite franchises. Zion could buy a plot at the Metairie Cemetery and they?d still be creating stories about him wanting to leave.