April 9th - New Orleans Pelicans @ Minnesota Timberwolves - 42-39

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

BI was our best player in the first half and CJ was our best player in the 2nd half.

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that's just not true. The opposing team keeps double teaming BI and refusing to let Trey shoot from 3, which opens up everything for CJ. He took advantage somewhat in the 2nd half, but his stats were still awful and he was not nearly good enough. He NEEDS to distribute the ball and find the best shot. He is simply not productive driving to the hoop forcing his own shot - it's been proven out all season long. If he's injured, that's even MORE important.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

Cj problem is that he has to cover for zion

If zion could actually suit up he would be the third option

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Yeah, except when Zion was on the floor CJ was still doing this.

Of course you could then say it's because Ingram was out - which is fair.

CJ has had a tough position in a lot of ways this season. But the fact is that he is making a lot of his own problems for himself, and the choices he is making on the court are worsening the factors beyond his control.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Wtf are you talking about he had two steals. You have a blind hatred agenda and Im tired of seeing it. Keep that crap to yourself.

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You are entitled to your opinion on here as am I. I say he sucks...especially defensively and ISO-CJ is a joke. If # 1 ever comes back...he should hit the pines.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

Cj problem is that he has to cover for zion

If zion could actually suit up he would be the third option

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And he is the only guy other than BI who can create his own shot

We just blew a game against a team that lost 2 starters mid-game, one for getting into a fight with a teammate, the other for punching a wall. That’s just embarrassing.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

You are entitled to your opinion on here as am I. I say he sucks...especially defensively and ISO-CJ is a joke. If # 1 ever comes back...he should hit the pines.

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Yeah he had two steal in the last couple minutes of the game so if you want to talk about his defense you should probably mention the plays that he made on defense.

Welp. I honestly hope they lose to OKC. Could use another lottery pick.

When your two main guys are unreliable to play for most of the season, you need as much talent as you can get. Because you're so often having to play without one of them, or both.

CJ is a pure sidekick and nothing more.

This season had no business coming down to this.

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Originally Posted by Speakthetruth

Cj problem is that he has to cover for zion

If zion could actually suit up he would be the third option

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Totally agree. If CJ is the 3rd option (or a deadly 6th man), he would be awesome.

We have the talent to win 2 play-in games, but I wouldn't be upset if we lose and end up in the lottery.

I don’t see it’s making it the lakers almost always beat us

we gave up i think 6 points on layups all because we didnt block out on miss free throws....

naji had a bad foul at the end of the half that gave them 2 points.....

trey was fouled shooting the 3 that could have tied the game or gave trey 3 free throws or an and one but the ref didnt call Edwards for the hands on trey.....

imo could have play jax some mins on kat because nance was hurt and katt was not playing in the paint against our bigs.....

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Originally Posted by neworleanshoo

that's just not true. The opposing team keeps double teaming BI and refusing to let Trey shoot from 3, which opens up everything for CJ. He took advantage somewhat in the 2nd half, but his stats were still awful and he was not nearly good enough. He NEEDS to distribute the ball and find the best shot. He is simply not productive driving to the hoop forcing his own shot - it's been proven out all season long. If he's injured, that's even MORE important.

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This is what I keep saying, but it is not being heard at all.

If CJ is injured - which I believe, I'm not challenging that - then he needs to adjust his approach. He isn't. So either he's playing selfish basketball, or he's a moron. Now, I've heard him speak and he's not a moron. So he's playing selfish basketball.

That's a fair thing to critique. Falling back on ''but he's injured!'' only begs the question.

And that has only become clearer over the last 6 weeks as Trey has proven himself a legitimate 20 point per night threat.

Obviously no game can be boiled down to box score traits, but if someone asked me the most glaring problem from tonight's box score it's this.

CJ took 14 more shots than Trey and only scored 3 additional points. If you can't see an issue with that, you need to think again.

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Originally Posted by 6warddude

we gave up i think 6 points on layups all because we didnt block out on miss free throws....

naji had a bad foul at the end of the half that gave them 2 points.....

trey was fouled shooting the 3 that could have tied the game or gave trey 3 free throws or an and one but the ref didnt call Edwards for the hands on trey.....

imo could have play jax some mins on kat because nance was hurt and katt was not playing in the paint against our bigs.....

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Yeah I do not understand why Jax couldn’t get on the floor against KAT

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Originally Posted by neworleanshoo

that's just not true. The opposing team keeps double teaming BI and refusing to let Trey shoot from 3, which opens up everything for CJ. He took advantage somewhat in the 2nd half, but his stats were still awful and he was not nearly good enough. He NEEDS to distribute the ball and find the best shot. He is simply not productive driving to the hoop forcing his own shot - it's been proven out all season long. If he's injured, that's even MORE important.

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It just is true. CJ was our best player in the 2nd half.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

And that has only become clearer over the last 6 weeks as Trey has proven himself a legitimate 20 point per night threat.

Obviously no game can be boiled down to box score traits, but if someone asked me the most glaring problem from tonight's box score it's this.

CJ took 14 more shots than Trey and only scored 3 additional points. If you can't see an issue with that, you need to think again.

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Yeah, because Trey can’t create his own shots well enough yet. If he could create his shot anywhere near as good as CJ (and BI) then he would have more shots.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Yeah, because Trey can’t make his own shot yet. If Trek could create his shot anywhere, nearly as good as CJ, then he would have more shots.

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Yep, that's the only problem with our offense.

CJ can make his own shots really well (can't hit any of them right now, but he can make them so we'll just let him do that endlessly) and if you don't have a 25 piece dribble package, the team is banned from running a play that might create something for you.

Come on, man, I know you know better than this. You've just gone into defense mode for CJ so you're not willing to accept that sometimes he makes mistakes.

I think the season would have went better if we had just kept Josh Hart.

CJ sucks

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

BI was our best player in the first half and CJ was our best player in the 2nd half.

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If you believe this, try this on....

One Minute of CJ in Crunch Time

47.6 Seconds....CJ misses two free throws (Pels down by 5)
57.3 Seconds....CJ fouls Edwards on made basket; leads to an one (Pels down by 2)
58.3 Seconds....Conley steals ball from CJ (Pels down by 2)
1:08 Minutes....CJ Dunk Attempt blocked (Pels down by 2)
1:30 Minutes....CJ fouls Conley who shoots two (Pel down by 2)
1:43 Minutes....CJ misses three pointer (Pels down by 1)

I don't dislike CJ personally He simply is not clutch in basketball and has repeatedly let this team down. He is definitely this team's weak link in starting five.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Yeah I do not understand why Jax couldn’t get on the floor against KAT

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katt was shooting 3s and in foul trouble so he was not being aggressive on offense going in the paint so at least jax could have challenge his outside shooting more than nance was doing....,

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Originally Posted by Pierre Pelican

I think the season would have went better if we had just kept Josh Hart.

CJ sucks

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YEP, and JAX would be playing (barring another transaction)

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

It just is true. CJ was our best player in the 2nd half.

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I'd like to see any objective data that supports this argument? He did start scoring (and I gave him props for it!) but as I said, he was getting easier looks and lanes to the hoops as the T-Wolves double-teamed BI and tried to limit outside looks from Trey. Even with that, he still had major gaffes that killed us.

I want to emphasize that I truly like CJ, just not as the primary scoring option. I really think adding Zion back (with Trey's growth) should solve the "iso-CJ" situation. But let's not act like he hasn't been a problem. He has.

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Originally Posted by As I See It

If you believe this, try this on....

One Minute of CJ in Crunch Time

47.6 Seconds....CJ misses two free throws (Pels down by 5)
57.3 Seconds....CJ fouls Edwards on made basket; leads to an one (Pels down by 2)
58.3 Seconds....Conley steals ball from CJ (Pels down by 2)
1:08 Minutes....CJ Dunk Attempt blocked (Pels down by 2)
1:30 Minutes....CJ fouls Conley who shoots two (Pel down by 2)
1:43 Minutes....CJ misses three pointer (Pels down by 1)

I don't dislike CJ personally He simply is not clutch in basketball and has repeatedly let this team down. He is definitely this team's weak link in starting five.

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Why are you leaving off the positive things that he does? Within that same timeframe he had a rebound and 2 steals and you arent mentioning them. That?s why I called you out because you only ******** on him when he does something bad and never recognize when he does anything good. That?s what makes you a hater.

This team will ALWAYS find a way to lose important games. Pathetic efford in the second half. Without Z We are so Soft….

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Originally Posted by neworleanshoo

I'd like to see any objective data that supports this argument? He did start scoring (and I gave him props for it!) but as I said, he was getting easier looks and lanes to the hoops as the T-Wolves double-teamed BI and tried to limit outside looks from Trey. Even with that, he still had major gaffes that killed us.

I want to emphasize that I truly like CJ, just not as the primary scoring option. I really think adding Zion back (with Trey's growth) should solve the "iso-CJ" situation. But let's not act like he hasn't been a problem. He has.

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Points scored is a pretty objective data point wouldn’t you say?

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Points scored is a pretty objective data point wouldn’t you say?

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So are turnovers, missed shots, fouls, etc, and you seem fairly content to ignore those right now.

I'm going to go against the flow and say that during the last 10 games or so, I think CJ has played well. Has he been at the BI or Trey level, no, but he's been solid for us and I think he took his game to another level than where he was in January/February. The man played through a thumb injury which affected his free throw shooting...not sure how it doesn't affect his jump shot but maybe he's shooting it differently then?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yep, that's the only problem with our offense.

CJ can make his own shots really well (can't hit any of them right now, but he can make them so we'll just let him do that endlessly) and if you don't have a 25 piece dribble package, the team is banned from running a play that might create something for you.

Come on, man, I know you know better than this. You've just gone into defense mode for CJ so you're not willing to accept that sometimes he makes mistakes.

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Don’t come on man to me. I’m telling you the truth. CJ can create his shot much better than Trey. That’s pure facts, I don’t even think a CJ hater can disagree with that statement because it that obvious of a fact. And you wanna talk about who is getting more shots up, well, an important part of that is who can actually create a shot.

We have to get it through JV's head to never bring the ball down...EVER. I don't care if it's off a pass and he wants to dribble or off a rebound. NEVER BRING THE BALL DOWN

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

So are turnovers, missed shots, fouls, etc, and you seem fairly content to ignore those right now.

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I didn’t ignore those. I specifically posted after the first half that CJ had been ice cold. He turned it on in the second half. He didn’t he did not have a good shooting that’s certainly true. Who else was missing all the three-pointers was it only CJ? Who else wasn’t boxing out on free throws and giving up rebounds was that all CJ? Because it seems like you’re ignoring everything, except for CJ, when he actually contributed a lot.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Why are you leaving off the positive things that he does? Within that same timeframe he had a rebound and 2 steals and you arent mentioning them. That?s why I called you out because you only ******** on him when he does something bad and never recognize when he does anything good. That?s what makes you a hater.

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Not true. I have been calling him out as no lead guard since the trade. Truth is, he is a 'shoot first', point guard 'wannbe' who thinks he's a combination of Dame, Steph, and Harden and can't play a lick of defense.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Don’t come on man to me. I’m telling you the truth. CJ can create his shot much better than Trey. That’s pure facts, I don’t even think a CJ hater can disagree with that statement because it that obvious of a fact. And you wanna talk about who is getting more shots up, well, an important part of that is who can actually create a shot.

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He can, I didn't even dispute that CJ can create his own shot better than Trey. I literally said that he could in the post you're responding to.

My point is that basketball is not a competition of who can string together the longest sequences of dribble moves. Obviously CJ is great at that and far more practiced than Trey.

Basketball is a team game where a team of players is supposed to work together to create the best shots for the team offense.

So if Trey - who, by the way, has proven over the last 6 weeks that he's actually better at creating his own shot in certain positions than you are giving him credit for - cannot create his shot as readily as CJ can, but his shots are better once they have been created, then what the team should do is work together to create those shots WITH Trey.

Instead, they just park Trey in a corner and say ''oh cool, let's watch CJ do the dribbles'' and CJ is happy to oblige because - as he told all of us at the beginning of the season about 50 times over, including on his own podcast - he is so happy to finally be able to 'run a team' and be a 'lead guard'.

If these were 1v1 games of 21, then I would absolutely be in favour of CJ dribbling his heart out every possession over Trey getting a catch off a screen or something, but this is the NBA and so I don't really care too much about CJ's and-1 mixtape.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Yeah I do not understand why Jax couldn?t get on the floor against KAT

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Consider early in the season in THAT Laker game. Zion had just made 2 big free throws, but he was taken out late for Dyson. I assume for defensive purposes. A 19 year old rookie. We all know how that ended.

Now consider all season long against teams with talented bigs. Ol coach, all of a sudden, refuses adjustments and will not give Jax minutes. Who has not played bad when given minutes.

He sticks with Larry, who might be dealing with an injury. And whom cannot box out or guard bigs anyway.

It's pure stubbornness on that sideline.

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Originally Posted by HorneyTexan

We have to get it through JV's head to never bring the ball down...EVER. I don't care if it's off a pass and he wants to dribble or off a rebound. NEVER BRING THE BALL DOWN

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this......in the second half when he grabbed the offensive rebound over 3 wolves,,i thought he was just going to go up and try to score but no, he brings the ball down to his legs and then gets stripped.....

i was like, why do he does this crap...

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Originally Posted by luckyman

He sticks with Larry, who might be dealing with an injury. And whom cannot box out or guard bigs anyway.

It's pure stubbornness on that sideline.

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Larry got injured tonight, and Willie's response was Herb at the 5 lmao

I don't even hate the idea of Herb at the 5 in the abstract, certain situations, but why is it the go-to?

Something that also should be criticised and hasn't been so far:

Bench sucked tonight.

8 points in a combined 58 minutes played, on 3/10 shooting. 7 fouls and 3 turnovers.

Shocking stuff.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

He can, I didn't even dispute that CJ can create his own shot better than Trey. I literally said that he could in the post you're responding to.

My point is that basketball is not a competition of who can string together the longest sequences of dribble moves. Obviously CJ is great at that and far more practiced than Trey.

Basketball is a team game where a team of players is supposed to work together to create the best shots for the team offense.

So if Trey - who, by the way, has proven over the last 6 weeks that he's actually better at creating his own shot in certain positions than you are giving him credit for - cannot create his shot as readily as CJ can, but his shots are better once they have been created, then what the team should do is work together to create those shots WITH Trey.

Instead, they just park Trey in a corner and say ''oh cool, let's watch CJ do the dribbles'' and CJ is happy to oblige because - as he told all of us at the beginning of the season about 50 times over, including on his own podcast - he is so happy to finally be able to 'run a team' and be a 'lead guard'.

If these were 1v1 games of 21, then I would absolutely be in favour of CJ dribbling his heart out every possession over Trey getting a catch off a screen or something, but this is the NBA and so I don't really care too much about CJ's and-1 mixtape.

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Sure, but where you go wrong is blaming it on CJ when Trey is standing in the corner motionless. If Trey can’t create his own shot well enough to put up the volume we need from him then he needs to be better at off ball movement. If guys are gonna stand around and watch CJ, what do you expect CJ to do about that?

Zion is not going to play this year, even if they make the playoffs to go play Denver. Another 8th seed this year is not progress and is frankly a huge disappointment.

They need to mulligan this thing on wednesday. I'm serious.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Consider early in the season in THAT Laker game. Zion had just made 2 big free throws, but he was taken out late for Dyson. I assume for defensive purposes. A 19 year old rookie. We all know how that ended.

Now consider all season long against teams with talented bigs. Ol coach, all of a sudden, refuses adjustments and will not give Jax minutes. Who has not played bad when given minutes.

He sticks with Larry, who might be dealing with an injury. And whom cannot box out or guard bigs anyway.

It's pure stubbornness on that sideline.

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i could understand if katt was being physical going into the paint against our bigs then i get not using jax.....katt was playing outside the 3pt line and nance couldnt challenge him shooting so damn try jax to contest those shots.......the only time i saw katt get physical on offense in the paint was when willie put herb on him and that kinda went in our favor because katt should have fouled out when herb got that rebound on him and katt was all on herb but the ref didnt call it....

Three of our Starters had a positive +/-.

Our bench and the other starters all had a negative +/- (any guesses who those other starters were?).

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Welp. I honestly hope they lose to OKC. Could use another lottery pick.

When your two main guys are unreliable to play for most of the season, you need as much talent as you can get. Because you're so often having to play without one of them, or both.

CJ is a pure sidekick and nothing more.

This season had no business coming down to this.

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I mean, even that doesnt guarantee anything. EJ Liddell was a steal, and we could have used him bigtime this season. But Pels life strikes again and boom...out for the season before the season even starts.

Sent from my SM-X200 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Sure, but where you go wrong is blaming it on CJ when Trey is standing in the corner motionless. If Trey can’t create his own shot well enough to put up the volume we need from him then he needs to be better at off ball movement. If guys are gonna stand around and watch CJ, what do you expect CJ to do about that?

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The thing is, even when guys do move around CJ he very very often misses it. He's not like BI who might miss something here and there but looks for the pass. CJ will make the pass only if there is zero route to a shot going up.

I can name a half dozen moments from just the last few games where this has happened. I even posted about some of them at the time, like CJ missing that wide-open lob to Trey the other game in transition.

Now don't get me wrong, everyone misses some passes I'm not even trying to be too hard on CJ for that. He's not a real lead guard facilitator. I'm just not sure if he knows that.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The thing is, even when guys do move around CJ he very very often misses it. He's not like BI who might miss something here and there but looks for the pass. CJ will make the pass only if there is zero route to a shot going up.

I can name a half dozen moments from just the last few games where this has happened. I even posted about some of them at the time, like CJ missing that wide-open lob to Trey the other game in transition.

Now don't get me wrong, everyone misses some passes I'm not even trying to be too hard on CJ for that. He's not a real lead guard facilitator. I'm just not sure if he knows that.

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Do you think you could name half a dozen moments from the same games where CJ made an awesome pass? I bet you could if you thought about it.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

The thing is, even when guys do move around CJ he very very often misses it. He's not like BI who might miss something here and there but looks for the pass. CJ will make the pass only if there is zero route to a shot going up.

I can name a half dozen moments from just the last few games where this has happened. I even posted about some of them at the time, like CJ missing that wide-open lob to Trey the other game in transition.

Now don't get me wrong, everyone misses some passes I'm not even trying to be too hard on CJ for that. He's not a real lead guard facilitator. I'm just not sure if he knows that.

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Thank you, dae!!!

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

Do you think you could name half a dozen moments from the same games where CJ made an awesome pass? I bet you could if you thought about it.

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Sure I could name a few (not a ton of awesome passes, because he's not an awesome passer), because I'm not saying CJ is garbage or that he sucks - I just think he's in a mid-career identity crisis, partly worsened by the team circumstances around him.

Could you acknowledge that he has some responsibility for some of the issues with this team, or are you too committed to his defense right now for that?

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Sure I could name a few (not a ton of awesome passes, because he's not an awesome passer), because I'm not saying CJ is garbage or that he sucks - I just think he's in a mid-career identity crisis, partly worsened by the team circumstances around him.

Could you acknowledge that he has some responsibility for some of the issues with this team, or are you too committed to his defense right now for that?

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I’ve often named the faults that I find with CJ. The reason I’m on here defending him it’s because everyone else seems to have lost all perspective and balance on the situation. Suddenly, y’all have a complete inability to recognize any of the positive things that he does. And it’s combined with the ability to ignore negatives from the rest of the team, everything bad that happens is just because of CJ.

And yes, I’m gonna say it again he had a serious injury that require surgery, ON HIS SHOOTING HAND. He has battled through it and stayed on the floor which is more than can be said for our other star players.

Actually a very accurate observation. Pels finished the season 27th in clutch defensive rebounding percentage, compared to fifth overall (including all situations) in the same stat. Definitely need to clean up some missed box outs under the rim in key spots https://t.co/XJuhpfhPoa

— Jim Eichenhofer (@Jim_Eichenhofer) April 9, 2023

I'm gonna go look at Trayce Jackson-Davis.

The rest of this season can kick rocks.

Hopefully BI and Herb make an all-nba team in some capacity.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

I’ve often named the faults that I find with CJ. The reason I’m on here defending him it’s because everyone else seems to have lost all perspective and balance on the situation. Suddenly, y’all have a complete inability to recognize any of the positive things that he does. And it’s combined with the ability to ignore negatives from the rest of the team, everything bad that happens is just because of CJ.

And yes, I’m gonna say it again he had a serious injury that require surgery, ON HIS SHOOTING HAND. He has battled through it and stayed on the floor which is more than can be said for our other star players.

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I don't think people are ignoring everything bad from elsewhere, it's just that - naturally - shot attempts happen more often than other things for most players. It's normal to average 14 shot attempts in a gaem, very rare to average 14 assists or 14 rebounds. So if someone is taking 14 shots and not hitting them, that sticks out a lot more than someone not getting 14 rebounds, which is just the norm. Therefore, CJ jacking up shots gets a lot of attention.

Especially because shot attempts, as mentioned earlier, are supposed to happen within an offense. It's both easy to see and immediately jarring when someone is forcing shots outside of that offense.

Look, CJ is a good player. Top 100 in the league, no doubt. All star in the past, well deserved. He has won us a handful of games this year.

That does not change the fact that he can be utterly infuriating to watch when he goes into ''me first'' mode. When you are watching a vital game get flushed down the toilet and the most glaring visual is CJ going ''me first'' mode, of course that is going to be what most people talk about first.

There are other issues - Willie's weird aversion to JV, the useless bench, etc - but you cannot act like it's unreasonable that people are mad at CJ right now.

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Originally Posted by luckyman

Actually a very accurate observation. Pels finished the season 27th in clutch defensive rebounding percentage, compared to fifth overall (including all situations) in the same stat. Definitely need to clean up some missed box outs under the rim in key spots https://t.co/XJuhpfhPoa

— Jim Eichenhofer (@Jim_Eichenhofer) April 9, 2023

I'm gonna go look at Trayce Jackson-Davis.

The rest of this season can kick rocks.

Hopefully BI and Herb make an all-nba team in some capacity.

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This can be directly attributed to JV never being on the floor to close games.

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Originally Posted by hornetsrebirth

This can be directly attributed to JV never being on the floor to close games.

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Which is why I said, in the other thread, that if Willie Green is fully committed to not using big bigs to their full potential, we should move JV.