Well, at least we still have the Oct-Dec run. We were a top 4 team then. Now it?s next man up as we head into the postseason.
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Well, at least we still have the Oct-Dec run. We were a top 4 team then. Now it?s next man up as we head into the postseason.
I have to disagree with the idea that we should've expected this. We've been hearing for sometime that he was basically on the cusp of returning, any day now.
On the cusp of the playoffs, with only 2 super important games left, this is a major disappointment that was directly set up by the management team's communication of reasonable expectations.
Hopefully they're just being coy and he'll be back before the postseason.
Well, I do think it's noteworthy they didn't say there was another setback or put another official 2 week thing on it. They just said he's continuing his rehab and conditioning. Shams said a few days ago - I think Monday - that the goal for Zion's return was playoffs. So that is still at least unofficially on the table.
Am I saying I think that's likely? Not really, I think the probable result is that he's done for the year. But if he's back I can easily imagine them saying it's playoffs or not at all. Zion returns if we make a real playoff series. If we don't, they're not risking anything for a singular play-in game.
Yeah, the difference is that in the playoffs it's not do or die in each individual game.
From a fan's perspective of course you want the best players on the court to watch.
From the management's perspective, can you imagine how horrible it would be if Zion came back and got re-injured in a play-in game and then, on top of that, we don't even make the post-season?! You'd basically just be sacrificing him at the altar of fanservice for zero upside in that situation.
Where we're sat it's unlikely but still possible that we make a real seed, not even in the play-ins. Why reactivate Zion now for the game before the game before the game before the game before the playoffs, when you're making the play-in either way, could still make a top 6 seed without him, and guarantee his return in a series that will definitely matter?
I'm not saying it's right or wrong but I can at least put myself in their shoes and try to consider that perspective. I think we should all try that instead of just getting hyperbolic with it.
So next, it'll be off-season surgery announced in June, with a set back in September.
He has played in like 33% of possible games in his career. How long are we going to keep this charade going?
He had knee surgery as a rookie.
He fractured a finger at the end of his second season.
He missed his entire third season after undergoing foot surgery.
This season, it's a hamstring injury. Then reinjuring the hamstring while rehabbing.
The only one of those that we can overlook as a freak injury is the finger. This guy will have lower body injuries for the rest of his career.
His biomechanics are just...off.
https://youtu.be/nPoAaGTGUKE?t=224
I'm not hating on the kid. It sucks for him and it sucks for us as fans.
I don't know, and I don't care.
He's clearly injury prone - nobody is denying it so it's not something you have to convince anyone of.
But the over-abundance of caution of Pelicans players, combined with the poor communication from the front office, is actually a bigger issue than just Zion. Because he's been injured, he's been the face of it, but we're used to this by now and we shouldn't have to be.
Ingram sprains his toe. Or was a jam? Or a contusion? Or turf toe? Jen Hale told us one thing, Willie Green told us another. Then he misses about 2 months from it.
Jose gets a sprain. Misses 6 weeks from it. Or 7 weeks. Or 8 weeks. Still no word on him. It was 2 more weeks 2 weeks ago, no update.
dyson missed a month for an ankle sprain. What grade sprain was it? Who knows, not me.
Yeah of course it's most frustrating with Zion because it happens most with him, but there's a serious issue with this team and its recovery procedures. This isn't normal. If you stub your toe on this team you miss 35 games. This doesn't happen with other teams. The problem is partly with Zion for being injury prone, sure, but we've also heard that he wants to be back, he feels he could play, he was doing 3v3 workouts a week ago and dunking in warmups a week before that. If there's no new set-back, why isn't he playing now, in terms of progress?
Because there are issues beyond the player with how this team deals with injuries. It's screwed up, so I'm more concerned with the FO than I am with any particular player right now - the games will take care of themselves, I'm not worried about the play-in.
Based on hardcore historical truths, it foolhardy to believe he will ever 'earn' that Max Contract he signed. This means the team will be operating with 70% to 75% of the cap dollars that other teams will be operating with over the next five years. So, in all probability, the 'altar of fanservice' has already been compromised until the end of his extension (or until they cut ties).
The injury situation is what it is, but the official team statements on his injury updates are honestly just cringe at this point.
im going to say this again and im holding on to it.....they are saving zion for the play-in. then we win those 2 games . . we beat denver in the 1st round and zion becomes the hero,,the fans love him again then all will be good in the state...
I think they didn't see what they wanted to clear him bur the lack of a timeline means they don't think it will be long until he is cleared. I bet he's cleared in less than a week.
Only when the board is without hope does great PelsThings happen.
What supports this is that the last time there was a set-back they did announce it fairly quickly, and he was doing ''rigorous'' 3v3 stuff about a week ago, according to Haines.
So if there's been no additional problems since then, it would imply he's getting close to return now and that it might be functionally day-to-day.
That said, Green also denied that Zion had done a full practice yet just a few days ago as well, so you can play those two statements off against each other however you like.
In my position, I think it's wise as a Pels fan to take a lesson from the ever-quotable Antonio Gramsci on this issue and have pessimism of the intellect, but optimism of the will.
Like I said earlier in the thread, I legitimately believe that the team has a play-off series or bust in mind. If we make a real series, they'll seriously consider playing him in it. If we don't, they're not going to cart him out for one or two games that could easily be inconsequential.
That, as well as this Shams updates, also fits with the Haines update last week that the playoffs were the target.
With how this zion thing has gone, I expect if they make a real series they will list him day to day and then he won't play in that series
At least some of Zion’s injury issues have to be from karma of New Orleans fans calling AD “street clothes” all these years and yet AD never missed as much time as Zion.
Andrew Lopez @_Andrew_Lopez
David Griffin on Zion Williamson: “I think it’s a matter of all the objective metrics we can have on where he is at and how he feels lining up. And to this point they haven’t.” Until that happens, Griff said, Z won’t be cleared for 5-on-5.
Andrew Lopez @_Andrew_Lopez
Said metrics are based on things they can measure in the weight room in terms of flexibility & court speed. Also Z’s reaction to how he feels after each exercise. “When he feels like him, he’ll tell us he’s ready for the next phase. And to this stage he hasn’t felt like that.”
Well
Andrew Lopez @_Andrew_Lopez
On Z’s potential availability, Griff said they wouldn’t be in a position to get him 5-on-5 work prior to play-in games. “Based on today, our best possible outcome if everything lined up perfectly maybe you’re in a position to practice prior to a 1st round or during a 1st round.”
Doesn't sound like he knows
I really don't care what Griff has to say at this point. It's all snake oil. Zero trust in him at the moment, especially regarding injuries. I'm working on the presumption that, if he can be back for the playoffs he will be but certainly not before. What he's saying here kind of lines up with that, but isn't optimistic sounding.
His entire claim is that Zion is hesitant to play and isn't ready, but all we've been hearing from every other source for the last two weeks is that he really wants to play and his workouts have been ''rigorous''. So am I going to believe that, or am I going to take the word of Griff, who cannot talk straight for ten seconds if his life was on the line?
Zion won't be back until at least the playoffs. That's all I need to know. He can save the rest of it.
Tell me if this sounds like anyone we know:
His new name is David Platitudes.Quote:
Speaking in platitudes means using cliched, vague, or overly general statements that convey little meaningful information or insight. Platitudes are often used when someone wants to sound knowledgeable or comforting without providing any real substance or specific guidance. They may be well-intentioned but can come across as insincere, superficial, or unhelpful due to their lack of depth or originality. Examples of platitudes include phrases like "Everything happens for a reason," "Time heals all wounds," or "Hard work always pays off."
so what i take from this is that zion is taking the same approach with his injury that BI did with his toe.........if thats true then i cant blame him for taking that approach since he has had set backs from other injuries in his past....plus he is seeing that BI did it his way and didnt have a set back and is tearing the league up right now because he was confident that he was fully healthy.....
so im guessing that zion is feeling confident that the team can win the play-in and he will feel/be healthy our first home playoff game.....
Still cannot get a single clear, unambiguous piece of info on Zion.
Two weeks ago, we get clips of him dunking in pre-game.
Then a week ago, we hear he's doing 3v3.
Then Willie Green tells us, actually, no he's not been in practice at all.
Then Shams tells us that things are progressing okay and the aim is return for playoffs.
Then Griff tells us that Zion's fine and it's just that he doesn't feel 100% ready - he's reluctant.
Then today, Shams is on the Pat McAfee show telling us that the problem is that Zion is ''not close'' in terms of conditioning.
What the hell is going on, man. Why can't we get a single clear piece of news that isn't in mass conflict. We've heard everything now.
So the problem is EITHER his conditioning, his injury, or his motivation. One of the three. Or maybe all of the three. Or, hell, at this point maybe none of the three and there's a secret fourth reason.
Optics on this are terrible, team still cannot communicate a clear message for the life of them.
It may not be the fans that the Pelicans are trying to hoodwink, instead it may be the NBA commissioner?s office. Putting on my tin foil hat for a second. If the NBA does try to influence the outcome of games through their refs, then a team might want to give the NBA a reason to prefer the Pelicans to be in the Post season, as opposed to say, the Timberwolves.
So if you put it out there that Zion is close to coming back, then perhaps the NBA decides that if they are going to put their thumb on the scale, they should do it for the team that has a marketable star, that people would tune in to see.
The man was an 'anomaly' from the beginning. His norm is, indeed, very different from the rest. At least, that's the claim of his advocates about his jaw-dropping, on-the-court performances and, from his detractors regarding the unending avalanche of "off-the-court" infirmities and disappointments he has put this team through (through no fault of his own....or is it?).
Now here we are in Year Four and both, he and the franchise we love so much, are pretty much 'tied at the hip' for the immediate future thanks to that Max Contract he was, literally, 'gifted' with (it certainly wasn't earned) last summer. A disproportionate amount management's time, effort, energy, and money is now being spent on one, non-contributing player compared to all the others combined. At some point (if not already) this imbalance will destroy this team.
Everyone thinks I hate Zion Williamson; I don't. But, I will admit that I love this team considerably more. Candidly, I wish the man would do the seemingly impossible...get on the court...and shut me up permanently. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Most recent update says Zion wont be available for the 1st round (if we make it). Hate to say it but thats a wrap for our playoff run this year. We can only overcome so much without our best player on the court. Making it past an elimination game, and then winning on the road in the play in, and then facing a top seed, its just too much to ask.
Zion Williamson says the main thing holding him back right now is getting over the mental hurdle of his injury. Says there are times when he still feels a hesitation when he makes certain moves.
— Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) April 11, 2023
He doesn't wanna play until he "feels like Zion"
When asked if he'll be ready to play in the first round, Williamson said:
— Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) April 11, 2023
"If I feel like Zion again"Zion:
— Will Guillory (@WillGuillory) April 11, 2023
“The ******** sucks. I don’t know how else to say it. The ******** sucks. I love this game. ... For those people who think I just want to sit on the sideline just to sit over there, I don’t know why people think that. Nah, it sucks. I just want to be playing basketball.”
Well finally, we've heard from Zion. And he confirms that actually, Griff wasn't completely full of garbage: it is a reluctance issue, but it's a reluctance that's related to physical sensation, whether it's a phantom sensation or not.
My one concern is this: sitting out longer until you feel right is fine, in general. BI did the same with his toe bruise - he took two months off for that and part of the reason was that he said he just didn't feel like himself on that foot yet. But surely in the playoffs you should be willing to dig a little deeper on this, right? Slightly more willing to brave some adversity.
I guess we'll find out, Zion himself is now saying the playoffs aren't out of the question, depending on how he feels, but personally, I just don't know how he could not allow himself to play in the post-season. If I knew I was physically ready, I don't think I could handle not playing.
That said, I do think this is a half-truth statement, prepared and cleared with the organisation, and that there might still be conditioning concerns.
He's spoken so many times about how much he hated not being able to play last post-season and being sidelined for it, I struggle to believe he legitimately would allow himself to miss it again if there was no push-back from the org.
Full Zion quote: "When I go to make certain moves, there is that hesitation. Sometimes there's not and sometimes there is. And I understand the magnitude of these games coming up and I don't want to be out there hesitating or doing something that may affect my team in a bad way."
— Andrew Lopez (@_Andrew_Lopez) April 11, 2023
I promise you Zion, even at 30% you would give the team more than Nance does right now.
“It’s tough… from my perspective I just want to play basketball. I want to play the game I love. Reality of it is, when I check my phone, when I’m just watching TV, no matter what it is I can’t escape what the world thinks.” pic.twitter.com/7DVcmevHjC
— Pro Pels Talk (@ProPelsTalk) April 11, 2023
I say this with zero judgment to Zion, full support of him, and as someone who has mental health issues myself and gets regular psychiatric support.
This man needs a sports psychologist. This offseason that needs to be a priority.
So many of these comments sound like someone who has so much pressure and expectation on them, they're letting it overwhelm them. He sounds scared to fail, scared to disappoint the fans, scared to fail his teammates, scared to not be able to give what people want from him. That's a difficult situation to be in and I have immense sympathy for it.
Get this man some help, please.
Zion's full interview from after today's practice ️#OneNOLA | #Pelicans pic.twitter.com/BEDYk8Xq2M
— New Orleans Pelicans (@PelicansNBA) April 11, 2023
He says he's physically fine, that he can do ''pretty much everything'' but that he needs to ''feel like Zion'' before anything else and that it's a ''collective decision'' on when he returns, it's not solely up to him.
Zion's comments sound almost exactly like BI's comments when he took so long to come back from the toe injury. I wonder if the training staff is putting these ideas in their heads about when they should try to push it. Very odd that both had similar comments and took (what appears to be) excessively long to come back.
While I don't agree with many things he has done, in this case, I think a lot of folks owe David Griffin (and the organization) an apology. Straight from the 'horse's mouth' he says he's not ready so, Griff was exonerated from lying to the public.
Now I wonder if we can discuss the game in which our season hangs in the balance. I'll start....
-- Who is CJ going to guard and will he win that matchup? SGA? Giddey? Dort? One of the William's?
-- After being benched in the season finale, will DD again be part of the rotation?
-- Will Green utilize our size advantage and make JV a focal point of the team's game plan, or will he succumb to his instincts and opt for an injured LNJ?
I don’t buy it
I think griffin needs to step down
We can never get concise info
Don’t put it passed the team to get him to say this to take pressure of him and everyone else
I have a dog that regularly poops on my floor. Today there was poop on my floor so I thought it was the dog's. Turns out it was a different dog. Do I apologize to the dog or is it expected because he craps on my floor?
No need for anyone to feel bad about Griff when they suspect he's being deceitful when he's been shady in the past about this exact scenario IMO.
And everyone can go hog wild with analyzing the game, and god bless you, but this post season is only about getting guys reps in games that matter and hopefully fuel them to get right for the next season.
The "I don't feel like Zion/BI" is a bad look. I get that behind that is "there's a higher risk of injury if I go out right now" but man.....just say that. Because that is like "ok, cool, man. Yeah. Take it easy. Don't risk any long term career stuff" whereas the "I just don't feel like me" sounds more like "I'm not 100% but there's no big risk....I just won't play unless I'm 100%" and there's a huge problem with that last one. I get it.....or at least I think I do....but it's a bad look.
Sounds to me like a kid who's hearing from those around him to protect himself and his long-term future in spite of what he wants in the short-term. His quotes were discouraging, but if you dig down it's understandable and makes sense from all angles.
I'd love to see him come back this postseason but I'm not ready to throw in the towel on him if it doesn't happen.
My opinion on Zion is very simple, and in line with yours here.
The fact is that in the small sample size we have of him since drafting, Zion is one of the three most impactful players in Pelicans history. This season alone proves it - when he plays, we're a top 3 seed, when he doesn't, we're scrabbling for a play-in spot. When he plays, our offense is top 8. When he doesn't, it's bottom 5.
Now, if another team comes along and offers you Luka for him then you have to take that very seriously but since we know that's not going to happen, the fact of his impact when he plays remains, and we can't un offer him the contract he signed. So I'm on board the Zion train until he either retires early due to injury or gets moved.
As long as he's a Pelican, I'm behind him, because I know what he can do when he plays is special.
Not looking to war with you, but truly the most poignant phase in your post is your...
"when he plays"
Problem is, dae, for four years running, he has sat more than he has played. That's not me hating on him....that's an unfortunate truth. You're the analytics guy, I'm not, but the numbers support this, right?
I pray that next year he plays 70+ games without debilitating injury and shuts me up. If Vegas put odds on it even they will probably say, "AISI will still be yapping unless the good Lord calls him home."
Sure, but the thing is - we're all aware of that.
People get irritated by the constant reminder of it because they usually even include it in their own posts and then someone comes along to tell them that he misses games as if they were born yesterday and didn't know.
Yes, I know that Zion's games missed are an important factor in the calculation I was outlining. Which is why I mentioned it in my own post three times. So if the primary point of your post is to remind me that he misses games, then it just starts to feel like hate.
Imagine how quick you'd accuse me of hate if someone pointed out that Ingram misses 30-40% of games every season and I instantly replied to it saying ''Yes, you see, this is truly the most poignant point about Ingram's game - no matter how good he is, he misses 40% of the season every year! I would love to imagine next year he plays 82 and proves me wrong, but alas! That's not me hating . . . [dramatic pause] . . . that's the unfortunate truth.''
Starts to feel less like a sad reflection on reality and more like I'm just gloating, no?
I would also note that as much as I would also love Zion to be a 75 game a year guy, that's not the norm for superstars in the NBA anymore anyway.
If we're worried about Zion's injury risk (which is a fair concern, for obvious reasons) and want to mitigate it, I'd just put him on the Kawhi Leonard plan.
Kawhi has a degenerative muscle issue in his hamstring, it's been a problem for years and by some estimations it's part of why he wanted out from the Spurs. Since leaving San Antonio, he has missed 1 full season and at least 22 games in every single other season. He's played 60 games once since 2016-17. He is assumed out of all back to backs by default.
Just put Zion on that. If he can give me a stable 55 games a year, I'll take it. Give him b2bs off, rest him every now and again by default, etc. Just do what needs to be done to keep him healthy for the playoffs each year.
Edit:
For supporting my point that superstars don't generally play 75+ games a year anymore anyway, here's the games played for top stars this year:
Kawhi: 52
Lebron: 55
Curry: 56
Luka: 66
Embiid: 66
Jokic: 69 (though he's unusual, he's played at least 70 games every other season of his career)
SGA: 68
Butler: 64
Harden: 58
Lillard: 58
So yeah, just give me 55.
Yes absolutely.
Because the only thing I would disagree with (nitpicking) from an earlier post you made is that we're scrambling for the playin spot also because of those BI missed games. So I would say we're a top 3 team with Zion and BI. A top 6 team without Zion. A lottery team without Zion and BI.
Tbf, I think most great teams fit this mindset missing their top two guys.