2021 NBA FINALS THREAD! Bucks vs Suns!

Giannis won them that game

Major carry job

unreal game from giannis considering the knee

Giannis didn’t have to go run to a super team either

Jrue did it the right way. He didn?t ********** his way out of here like his old teammate and Griffin helped him out.

Glad CP “never seen a set of plums he wouldn’t grab” 3 not win it.

Congrats Jrue!

CP3 to the Lakers. Just make it official.

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Originally Posted by AtlPelsFan

Giannis didn’t have to go run to a super team either

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Giannis' postgame comments about superteams made me so happy. I'm so glad there's a superstar in the NBA who is willing to talk like this.

“I could go to a superteam … but this is the hard way to do it and this is the way to do it.”

Giannis spitting bars. �� pic.twitter.com/Hz07RJyxSx

— SLAM (@SLAMonline) July 21, 2021

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Giannis' postgame comments about superteams made me so happy. I'm so glad there's a superstar in the NBA who is willing to talk like this.

“I could go to a superteam … but this is the hard way to do it and this is the way to do it.”

Giannis spitting bars. �� pic.twitter.com/Hz07RJyxSx

— SLAM (@SLAMonline) July 21, 2021

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Much respect to Giannis.

Someone needs to show that to Zion

Side note, Giannis' resume at age 26 is unquestionable. He's not even 27 until December.

- Finals MVP and NBA Champion
- 2x MVP (back to back)
- Defensive Player of the Year
- 5x All Star
- 5x All NBA (3x first team)
- 4x All Defensive team

And he seems to be a really nice guy who built success with the team that drafted him and doesn't like the idea of running to a superteam.

If he retired today, he'd be a first ballot hall of famer, jersey retired, top 5 international player of all time (arguably top 3, depending on if you count Duncan as international), and I think you could make an argument for him being top 25 all time already.

I'd be surprised if he didn't win another MVP at some point, he's young enough that another Finals MVP isn't unrealistic, and he'll probably add another 5 First Team All-NBAs and another handful of All Defensive awards to that list as well by the time he's done. All time great. What a player.

People crapping on the Bucks for their path to the title probably crapped on the Lakers last year, the Raptors the year before, and the Warriors the year before that.

The fact of the matter is that every NBA title winning team catches breaks along the way (injuries, suspensions, fouls, etc). To deny that, and just crap on the Bucks for their title (or the others mentioned) just goes to show who doesn’t follow sports in general.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

People crapping on the Bucks for their path to the title probably crapped on the Lakers last year, the Raptors the year before, and the Warriors the year before that.

The fact of the matter is that every NBA title winning team catches breaks along the way (injuries, suspensions, fouls, etc). To deny that, and just crap on the Bucks for their title (or the others mentioned) just goes to show who doesn’t follow sports in general.

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It’s the fact a team in a smaller market won. These are the things that can happen here.

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Originally Posted by UNO Gracias

People crapping on the Bucks for their path to the title probably crapped on the Lakers last year, the Raptors the year before, and the Warriors the year before that.

The fact of the matter is that every NBA title winning team catches breaks along the way (injuries, suspensions, fouls, etc). To deny that, and just crap on the Bucks for their title (or the others mentioned) just goes to show who doesn’t follow sports in general.

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100%

Warriors first title they didn't play a single healthy starting PG, in any round of the playoffs. Raptors played a thoroughly hobbled Warriors. Lakers beat the Heat with a clearly injured Bam and Dragic, and I think Butler got injured during the series too.

Any title run you can choose has examples of where the winning team has gotten a stroke of luck here, an opponent injury there. It's the reality of the game. That's why no championship has an asterisk.

Didn't read this whole thread so it's probably been said, but it was interesting seeing shades of what is possible with Zion and BI in Giannis and Middleton.

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Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels

Didn't read this whole thread so it's probably been said, but it was interesting seeing shades of what is possible with Zion and BI in Giannis and Middleton.

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Zion and Ingram's defensive play, alone, precludes this from being a realistic comparison. Never mind the truth of the statement, of course, now I'm a troll. LOL

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Originally Posted by SoCal4Pels

Didn't read this whole thread so it's probably been said, but it was interesting seeing shades of what is possible with Zion and BI in Giannis and Middleton.

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There's a huge issue missing from that comparison.

Zion, while I don't think is nearly as big a defensive problem as some people seem to believe, is unlikely to ever read Giannis level on D for a number of reasons.

And Ingram is a nightmare on defense, whereas Middleton is one of the best 2 way wings in the league.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

There's a huge issue missing from that comparison.

Zion, while I don't think is nearly as big a defensive problem as some people seem to believe, is unlikely to ever read Giannis level on D for a number of reasons.

And Ingram is a nightmare on defense, whereas Middleton is one of the best 2 way wings in the league.

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Oh, my...a rare consensus!!! Are you a troll, too? LOL

I didn’t pay attention to Giannis until he grew into his body. Has he always been a plus defender?

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Originally Posted by Eman5805

I didn’t pay attention to Giannis until he grew into his body. Has he always been a plus defender?

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I think every year but his Rookie year. And his rookie year he was more of a net zero than a negative

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Originally Posted by Taker597

I think every year but his Rookie year. And his rookie year he was more of a net zero than a negative

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Nah, I think he was pretty poor his rookie year. At basically everything - but that was to be expected given his frame and his rawness.

He wasn't very good on D his second year either, though he was improving at a rapid rate.

By his third year, yeah he was damn good on defense and has only gotten better.

I think the biggest advantage Giannis has on defense - and a huge part of why I think Zion will never quite reach that level, even with significant growth - is just the frame. He's 6'11 with a 7'3 wingspan and he has that weird combo of broad shoulders and narrow hips that really helps him absorb a ton of contact while still being very mobile.

Zion, on the other hand, is 6'6 with a 6'10 wingspan and is built like a tank. I think he's shown enough flashes (particularly in college but increasingly in the NBA) to think that he can be a solid defender, even perhaps a good one during his prime years, but I very much doubt he ever glimpses the DPOY level that Giannis is at.

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Nah, I think he was pretty poor his rookie year. At basically everything - but that was to be expected given his frame and his rawness.

He wasn't very good on D his second year either, though he was improving at a rapid rate.

By his third year, yeah he was damn good on defense and has only gotten better.

I think the biggest advantage Giannis has on defense - and a huge part of why I think Zion will never quite reach that level, even with significant growth - is just the frame. He's 6'11 with a 7'3 wingspan and he has that weird combo of broad shoulders and narrow hips that really helps him absorb a ton of contact while still being very mobile.

Zion, on the other hand, is 6'6 with a 6'10 wingspan and is built like a tank. I think he's shown enough flashes (particularly in college but increasingly in the NBA) to think that he can be a solid defender, even perhaps a good one during his prime years, but I very much doubt he ever glimpses the DPOY level that Giannis is at.

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I was only thinking more along his peers in his draft class. I can't really remember a real defensive juggernaut coming into the league as a rookie anymore. Everyone gets burned as expected, but I remember thinking he had some fundamental qualities that jump out to me once he grows into his frame. He was like 190 lbs on draft day. So, he really couldn't do much and he was so raw too. Every time I watch him. He just keeps getting better and better. It's been a wild ride. One of the most enjoyable franchise player coming of age ascension in quite some time.

As you said, the resume speaks for itself and he quietly built it up for a while jealous fans took every chance to trash or tear him down for every bit of adversity he faced.


Like it's his fault for having to carry Eric Bledsoe or something.

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Originally Posted by Taker597

I was only thinking more along his peers in his draft class. I can't really remember a real defensive juggernaut coming into the league as a rookie anymore. Everyone gets burned as expected, but I remember thinking he had some fundamental qualities that jump out to me once he grows into his frame. He was like 190 lbs on draft day. So, he really couldn't do much and he was so raw too. Every time I watch him. He just keeps getting better and better. It's been a wild ride. One of the most enjoyable franchise player coming of age ascension in quite some time.

As you said, the resume speaks for itself and he quietly built it up for a while jealous fans took every chance to trash or tear him down for every bit of adversity he faced.


Like it's his fault for having to carry Eric Bledsoe or something.

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Yeah it's pretty incredible. His growth curve has been spectacular, I honestly can't remember anyone else coming into the league so raw and becoming so incredibly dominant so quickly. People like to point to Luka being a top 10 player in his second year and sure, that's true, but he was already a league MVP playing pro overseas before coming to the NBA: Giannis was not that :hihi:

I think the last player to be immediately incredible on defense was Thybulle. As a rookie he had a 3.5%STL and 3.1%BLK and was a +3.1 DBPM. There has literally never been a rookie log STL and BLK% that high before. At least, none that played any significant time: Thybulle played over 1200 minutes that season.

If you remove the rookie tag and just look for people who have logged that level of defensive event creation in a season regardless of age or experience, you get the following:

- Gerald Wallace (x1)
- Kawhi Leonard (x1)
- Matisse Thybulle (x2)

That's the entire list, ever - again, with at least 1000 minutes played.

Thybulle has been staggeringly good on defense immediately. His problem is that his offense is so awkward that lineups that feature him have to be very carefully calculated.

That's just cause we haven't given Didi the minutes yet. ;)

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Originally Posted by Pelicanidae

Yeah it's pretty incredible. His growth curve has been spectacular, I honestly can't remember anyone else coming into the league so raw and becoming so incredibly dominant so quickly. People like to point to Luka being a top 10 player in his second year and sure, that's true, but he was already a league MVP playing pro overseas before coming to the NBA: Giannis was not that :hihi:

I think the last player to be immediately incredible on defense was Thybulle. As a rookie he had a 3.5%STL and 3.1%BLK and was a +3.1 DBPM. There has literally never been a rookie log STL and BLK% that high before. At least, none that played any significant time: Thybulle played over 1200 minutes that season.

If you remove the rookie tag and just look for people who have logged that level of defensive event creation in a season regardless of age or experience, you get the following:

- Gerald Wallace (x1)
- Kawhi Leonard (x1)
- Matisse Thybulle (x2)

That's the entire list, ever - again, with at least 1000 minutes played.

Thybulle has been staggeringly good on defense immediately. His problem is that his offense is so awkward that lineups that feature him have to be very carefully calculated.

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That’s really cool man. Love these historical stat analysis. You always on the fly with some awesome stats.

Just realized that PJ Tucker won a ring too and was a starter.

More than just PJ Tucker winning a ring, if you look at who the Bucks played, see who he had to beat to get that ring.

First round: Played the Miami Heat who started Trevor Ariza, who played with Tucker on the 2017-18 Rockets
Second Round: Played the Nets, who started James Harden, who played with Tucker on that same 2017-18 Rockets team
Third Round: Played the Atlanta Hawks, who started Clint Capela, who played with Tucker on that same Rockets team
Finals: Played the Phoenix Suns, who started Chris Paul who also played with Tucker on that same Rockets team

Not only did PJ win a ring as a starter, he did it running the gauntlet of former Rockets team mates who are still struggling for that same result. Icy.

Whether or not Zion/BI ever reach Giannis/Middleton's defensive abilities (unlikely due to Zion's height and BI's weight), Zion and BI still have the potential to MASSIVELY improve on the defensive end of the floor. Zion even stated it as a prime goal when he said he saw himself as a 'turbocharged Draymond' (tall order, of course, but it bodes well that he even said those words.)

The upside is that even at Zion's tender age, some of his skills already surpass Giannis's, and BI has the potential to be a far superior offensive player to Middleton.

I simply think Giannis/Middleton is the most similar duo STYLE-WISE to Zion/BI in the league, and with some gameplay and team-building tweaks to play to Zion/BI's strengths and hide their weaknesses, they offer a solid paradigm in many respects even if they never approach their defensive prowess.