Omer Asik: No Hands No Athleticism.

Okay so Asik's contract expires this year, and Minnesota is rebuilding with young players and has Pekovic on a longer-term deal...now that would be an interesting trade deadline swap. And we could throw in pretty much any player outside the Pels' top four to make it work. Pekovic would fit much better on this roster, his true low post presence would open a lot of things up for everyone.

Pekovic/ Withey
Davis/ Anderson
Salmons/ Babbitt
Evans/ Miller
Holiday/ Rivers/ Smith

Asik is awesome. I've never been around a site like this before. Very negative.

If Dell can keep Asik for 9mil per it would be great....Pekovic ain't going nowhere.....Asik will be better, once his back heals....SF position is killing this team defensively......rotating on defense with a smaller player kills interior D......

There's no consensus on the board. Let's try to get to the bottom of it.
So when we started the season Monty was "finally getting this coaching thing down pat" but once we started losing we realized he is a bad coach and should be fired.

When we had Rolo he was terrible and a roadblock to Davis' progression, took too many shots, couldn't defend the pick and roll, or rebound. We were excited to see him go but now he was a value player who should have been retained and isbetter than anyone we could have brought in.

Asik was an signed, and hailed as a top center in the league almost immediately. But then after being out a few games, coming back clearly not 100% (look at his movement the last couple games) and now he is probably the problem and we should never have signed him.

Gordon was terrible his entire career here. The last few years of Gordon have been a disaster and one of the worst contracts in the league. He began the season so poorly that his own fans were booing him for shooting so badly but now that he is hurt and we're struggling "he was the linchpin to our offense".

Ryan Anderson was a fan favorite since he's been here. He single-handedly won us games by catching fire. But now he is a terrible offensive player and should be traded for anything.

Jason Smith was a good player for us until last year we didn't like how many shots he was taking. Then he was a bad player and we were glad to see him go but now he would have provided us depth.

We were fine with letting Morrow go to get Asik but now that Gordon is injured (who could have seen that coming) we should have kept him.

Tyreke Evans was amazing at the end of last season, has generated a ton of open looks for his teammates at the start of the year, but now is a cancer who is actively damaging this team. Our losses are probably his fault.

Jrue Holiday was an amazing player. He could defend and hit threes. When we had Vasquez we couldn't contain guards and Jrue allowed us to finally defend. He doesn't jack shots. Now that we're losing he is passive. Now he is also selfish and forces things. It must be his fault we're losing.

Dell Demps was a genius for the Jrue trade. He was great for bringing in Roberts. But now that we're losing EVERY decision he ever made in the past comes into question. Strange that no one was talking about these moves while we were winning.

Anthony Davis is our best player. He is thought to potentially be the best player in the league. Yet it is not his fault we are losing. We like him for now.

It almost sounds like the consensus on the board is that if we win then everyone is good and every decision by the coach, every play by the players, and every choice by the GM is good, yet if we lose, our players are bad, our coach should be fired, and our GM has made the worst decisions in the league. Some people have been consistent about their criticisms but wow, some of you are visceral.

Learn that the process is more important than the results. The logic doesn't change. If you support the process as it happens but the results aren't happening then either A- wait or B- the logic was wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

There's no consensus on the board. Let's try to get to the bottom of it.
So when we started the season Monty was "finally getting this coaching thing down pat" but once we started losing we realized he is a bad coach and should be fired.

When we had Rolo he was terrible and a roadblock to Davis' progression, took too many shots, couldn't defend the pick and roll, or rebound. We were excited to see him go but now he was a value player who should have been retained and isbetter than anyone we could have brought in.

Asik was an signed, and hailed as a top center in the league almost immediately. But then after being out a few games, coming back clearly not 100% (look at his movement the last couple games) and now he is probably the problem and we should never have signed him.

Gordon was terrible his entire career here. The last few years of Gordon have been a disaster and one of the worst contracts in the league. He began the season so poorly that his own fans were booing him for shooting so badly but now that he is hurt and we're struggling "he was the linchpin to our offense".

Ryan Anderson was a fan favorite since he's been here. He single-handedly won us games by catching fire. But now he is a terrible offensive player and should be traded for anything.

Jason Smith was a good player for us until last year we didn't like how many shots he was taking. Then he was a bad player and we were glad to see him go but now he would have provided us depth.

We were fine with letting Morrow go to get Asik but now that Gordon is injured (who could have seen that coming) we should have kept him.

Tyreke Evans was amazing at the end of last season, has generated a ton of open looks for his teammates at the start of the year, but now is a cancer who is actively damaging this team. Our losses are probably his fault.

Jrue Holiday was an amazing player. He could defend and hit threes. When we had Vasquez we couldn't contain guards and Jrue allowed us to finally defend. He doesn't jack shots. Now that we're losing he is passive. Now he is also selfish and forces things. It must be his fault we're losing.

Dell Demps was a genius for the Jrue trade. He was great for bringing in Roberts. But now that we're losing EVERY decision he ever made in the past comes into question. Strange that no one was talking about these moves while we were winning.

Anthony Davis is our best player. He is thought to potentially be the best player in the league. Yet it is not his fault we are losing. We like him for now.

It almost sounds like the consensus on the board is that if we win then everyone is good and every decision by the coach, every play by the players, and every choice by the GM is good, yet if we lose, our players are bad, our coach should be fired, and our GM has made the worst decisions in the league. Some people have been consistent about their criticisms but wow, some of you are visceral.

Learn that the process is more important than the results. The logic doesn't change. If you support the process as it happens but the results aren't happening then either A- wait or B- the logic was wrong.

---

http://media20.giphy.com/media/ENagA...iphy.gif?w=320

http://media20.giphy.com/media/fMuhm...iphy.gif?w=320

The problem with posts like yours Jabber is they conflate the opinions of numerous posters into a singular out-of context, misrepresentative narrative that doesnt accurately reflect any of the individuals you are supposedly lambasting.

It is one of the more annoying argumentative tropes I find on message boards.

To get all annoying-guy-in-philosophy-class on the board, it's essentially a poisoning of the well though a straw man.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

The problem with posts like yours Jabber is they conflate the opinions of numerous posters into a singular out-of context, misrepresentative narrative that doesnt accurately reflect any of the individuals you are supposedly lambasting.

It is one of the more annoying argumentative tropes I find on message boards.

To get all annoying-guy-in-philosophy-class on the board, it's essentially a poisoning of the well though straw men.

---

http://cdn1.smosh.com/sites/default/...nger-games.gif

If you're gonna troll, at least be funny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

If you're gonna troll, at least be funny.

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http://media20.giphy.com/media/cEYFe...iphy.gif?w=320

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

http://media20.giphy.com/media/cEYFe...iphy.gif?w=320

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http://www.totalprosports.com/wp-con...ball-shots.gif

2/10.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

There's no consensus on the board. Let's try to get to the bottom of it.
So when we started the season Monty was "finally getting this coaching thing down pat" but once we started losing we realized he is a bad coach and should be fired.

When we had Rolo he was terrible and a roadblock to Davis' progression, took too many shots, couldn't defend the pick and roll, or rebound. We were excited to see him go but now he was a value player who should have been retained and isbetter than anyone we could have brought in.

Asik was an signed, and hailed as a top center in the league almost immediately. But then after being out a few games, coming back clearly not 100% (look at his movement the last couple games) and now he is probably the problem and we should never have signed him.

Gordon was terrible his entire career here. The last few years of Gordon have been a disaster and one of the worst contracts in the league. He began the season so poorly that his own fans were booing him for shooting so badly but now that he is hurt and we're struggling "he was the linchpin to our offense".

Ryan Anderson was a fan favorite since he's been here. He single-handedly won us games by catching fire. But now he is a terrible offensive player and should be traded for anything.

Jason Smith was a good player for us until last year we didn't like how many shots he was taking. Then he was a bad player and we were glad to see him go but now he would have provided us depth.

We were fine with letting Morrow go to get Asik but now that Gordon is injured (who could have seen that coming) we should have kept him.

Tyreke Evans was amazing at the end of last season, has generated a ton of open looks for his teammates at the start of the year, but now is a cancer who is actively damaging this team. Our losses are probably his fault.

Jrue Holiday was an amazing player. He could defend and hit threes. When we had Vasquez we couldn't contain guards and Jrue allowed us to finally defend. He doesn't jack shots. Now that we're losing he is passive. Now he is also selfish and forces things. It must be his fault we're losing.

Dell Demps was a genius for the Jrue trade. He was great for bringing in Roberts. But now that we're losing EVERY decision he ever made in the past comes into question. Strange that no one was talking about these moves while we were winning.

Anthony Davis is our best player. He is thought to potentially be the best player in the league. Yet it is not his fault we are losing. We like him for now.

It almost sounds like the consensus on the board is that if we win then everyone is good and every decision by the coach, every play by the players, and every choice by the GM is good, yet if we lose, our players are bad, our coach should be fired, and our GM has made the worst decisions in the league. Some people have been consistent about their criticisms but wow, some of you are visceral.

Learn that the process is more important than the results. The logic doesn't change. If you support the process as it happens but the results aren't happening then either A- wait or B- the logic was wrong.

---

This place can get pretty illogically pretty quick. It's the IMO the biggest flaw on this forum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by N.O.Bronco

The problem with posts like yours Jabber is they conflate the opinions of numerous posters into a singular out-of context, misrepresentative narrative that doesnt accurately reflect any of the individuals you are supposedly lambasting.

It is one of the more annoying argumentative tropes I find on message boards.

To get all annoying-guy-in-philosophy-class on the board, it's essentially a poisoning of the well though a straw man.

---

Fair enough. But where were the people clamoring for Rolo when Asik was signed? Of course there are enough people on here with enough differing opinions to agree and disagree with every decision and opinion. However there are very few who complain when we're winning, and many who complain when we're losing. My overall point is that when complaining about a process that has remained constant, complain about it when things are good AND bad. The results shouldn't change that. Instead the board eats itself.

There are very few here who offer criticism when things are good.

For example, if Ryno is jacking shots but making them we won't hear anything about blaming him, but the process was wrong even if we got the result that we wanted.

I don't mean to lump everyone together when it comes to each individual debate, but overall. We really need people to also realize that this is just basketball. Let's have fun win or lose. Otherwise, I'd suggest rethinking why you're watching.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

Fair enough. But where were the people clamoring for Rolo when Asik was signed? Of course there are enough people on here with enough differing opinions to agree and disagree with every decision and opinion. However there are very few who complain when we're winning, and many who complain when we're losing. My overall point is that when complaining about a process that has remained constant, complain about it when things are good AND bad. The results shouldn't change that. Instead the board eats itself.

There are very few here who offer criticism when things are good.

For example, if Ryno is jacking shots but making them we won't hear anything about blaming him, but the process was wrong even if we got the result that we wanted.

I don't mean to lump everyone together when it comes to each individual debate, but overall. We really need people to also realize that this is just basketball. Let's have fun win or lose. Otherwise, I'd suggest rethinking why you're watching.

---

I think what I don't like about your post earlier is you are conflating the emotional reactionary posters getting worked up over a loss - who seem to shift with the winds - with the posters on here that have grounded and well articulated reasoning behind their viewpoints.

When you are winning it is much easier to silence the internal thought processes that may be questioning some of the things you are watching. There were criticisms though. There is also a barrage of "we won, thats all that matters!" attacks on anyone that criticized in a win. I personally took a wait and see approach but have made numerous sporadic comments of concern throughout the season. To an extent I still am[taking a wait and see approach]. I am not ready write Monty's gravestone yet but the small issues I had even during wins begin to get magnified when they are still around and they now seem to be causing problems.

As for individual criticism I think I and handful of others have been very consistent in wins and loses(Do you not remember my wall-of-text posts trying to break down Eric Gordons play or Tyreke Evans performances? or my numerous stat spamming posts LOL). Of course I have shifted as new evidence has presented itself and with arguments that have been compelling. I think a willingness to change your views under new information is a sign of intelligence. Thats not to be conflated with emotional reactionary shifts though.

As for Dell I was one of the most vocal early critics of Dell's moves. In fact I remember several threads arguing the value of getting Evans and the Jrue trade. Questioning the risk/reward of the moves. The Jrue trade I am less against in retrospect then I was initially. I also was never really on the ROLO hate train. I always thought he was a great find on Dell's part and had a great contract and Vasquez would be a great backup PG.

As for Ryno I have explained my thoughts at length in other posts but I think the guy has to learn to pass out from the post and not stop the ball. It basically makes life harder for him when defenses know that once Ryno gets the ball he is going to take a shot. But at the same time Ryno needs a legitimate PG that can get him open looks off the bench. Rivers just isn't the best decision maker or the smoothest of passer so there play together is rather disjointed.

I don't think that the Rolo argument is that he's better than Asik. I think the argument is that Dell traded a serviceable big (a position of need) for a duplicative player in Tyreke and thus creating a hole in 2 positions (C & SF). In theory, we could have saved the Reke money for a SF, kept Rolo, and looked to sure up the C spot at a future date. In Dell's defense, he may have bought in to the AD @ C talk. No one with eyes should have thought that AD was our future C. If he hadn't come out and said that he's a PF, we'd probably still be talking about him as our future C. At any extent, lots of posters, including myself, feel that the Asik signing was a corrective move for letting Rolo go. I like Asik and do feel that he's an upgrade over Rolo but he was an unnecessary upgrade if you look at the big picture. The Tyreke signing didn't address any gaping needs therefore making the Rolo trade superfluous but hindsight is 20/20

http://img.pandawhale.com/post-38275...e-gif-qJC1.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UptownFuz504

I don't think that the Rolo argument is that he's better than Asik. I think the argument is that Dell traded a serviceable big (a position of need) for a duplicative player in Tyreke and thus creating a hole in 2 positions (C & SF). In theory, we could have saved the Reke money for a SF, kept Rolo, and looked to sure up the C spot at a future date. In Dell's defense, he may have bought in to the AD @ C talk. No one with eyes should have thought that AD was our future C. If he hadn't come out and said that he's a PF, we'd probably still be talking about him as our future C. At any extent, lots of posters, including myself, feel that the Asik signing was a corrective move for letting Rolo go. I like Asik and do feel that he's an upgrade over Rolo but he was an unnecessary upgrade if you look at the big picture. The Tyreke signing didn't address any gaping needs therefore making the Rolo trade superfluous but hindsight is 20/20

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Yep. It's simple cost vs benefits. Not only was Tyreke 11 million a year but it cost us a starting Center, a backup PG(that was later a key piece in the Rudy Gay trade FYI), cap room, and forced us to give up a first round draft pick to bring in a replacement. Was he worth that cost? I don't think he was so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

How come these threads never pop up in the mid afternoon on an off day?

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Lack of alcohol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

There's no consensus on the board. Let's try to get to the bottom of it.
So when we started the season Monty was "finally getting this coaching thing down pat" but once we started losing we realized he is a bad coach and should be fired.

When we had Rolo he was terrible and a roadblock to Davis' progression, took too many shots, couldn't defend the pick and roll, or rebound. We were excited to see him go but now he was a value player who should have been retained and isbetter than anyone we could have brought in.

Asik was an signed, and hailed as a top center in the league almost immediately. But then after being out a few games, coming back clearly not 100% (look at his movement the last couple games) and now he is probably the problem and we should never have signed him.

Gordon was terrible his entire career here. The last few years of Gordon have been a disaster and one of the worst contracts in the league. He began the season so poorly that his own fans were booing him for shooting so badly but now that he is hurt and we're struggling "he was the linchpin to our offense".

Ryan Anderson was a fan favorite since he's been here. He single-handedly won us games by catching fire. But now he is a terrible offensive player and should be traded for anything.

Jason Smith was a good player for us until last year we didn't like how many shots he was taking. Then he was a bad player and we were glad to see him go but now he would have provided us depth.

We were fine with letting Morrow go to get Asik but now that Gordon is injured (who could have seen that coming) we should have kept him.

Tyreke Evans was amazing at the end of last season, has generated a ton of open looks for his teammates at the start of the year, but now is a cancer who is actively damaging this team. Our losses are probably his fault.

Jrue Holiday was an amazing player. He could defend and hit threes. When we had Vasquez we couldn't contain guards and Jrue allowed us to finally defend. He doesn't jack shots. Now that we're losing he is passive. Now he is also selfish and forces things. It must be his fault we're losing.

Dell Demps was a genius for the Jrue trade. He was great for bringing in Roberts. But now that we're losing EVERY decision he ever made in the past comes into question. Strange that no one was talking about these moves while we were winning.

Anthony Davis is our best player. He is thought to potentially be the best player in the league. Yet it is not his fault we are losing. We like him for now.

It almost sounds like the consensus on the board is that if we win then everyone is good and every decision by the coach, every play by the players, and every choice by the GM is good, yet if we lose, our players are bad, our coach should be fired, and our GM has made the worst decisions in the league. Some people have been consistent about their criticisms but wow, some of you are visceral.

Learn that the process is more important than the results. The logic doesn't change. If you support the process as it happens but the results aren't happening then either A- wait or B- the logic was wrong.

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Jabber, you are right on the money, my man! Great post!

bump