Top 10 Players (any position) for 2014-15

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

My list is below. I considered putting Harden on there and considered Marc Gasol. Probably could have put Blake Griffin or Kevin Love, Dirk or Duncan. It's not easy to make this list. What's your take? Do you have a top 10?

1. LeBron
2. Durant
3. Davis
4. Paul
5. Kobe
6. Melo
7. Howard
8. Lillard
9. Curry
10. Leonard


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Would replace D12 wit LA, and lillard with Westbrook and Leonard with Jrue YES Jrue Holliday! Im expecting a big year from him

Starting in 2015, men can have babies. That is my respectful opinion based on how I interpret the future of procreation.

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Originally Posted by DefensiveMind

Starting in 2015, men can have babies. That is my respectful opinion based on how I interpret the future of procreation.

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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

You are flat out naive. Davis will be in the top ten at least.







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calm down, did you even read my post? I think he will be a top 10 player, but I wouldn't make a statement like you just made if someone said he wasn't a top 15 player.

Edit: Also your list is terrible. you think Kobe is still a top 5 player? Leonard and Lillard that high? Westbrook not even in your top 16? Hilarious.

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Originally Posted by Pelifan

you think Kobe is still a top 5 player?

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depends how you form these lists. if someone said kobe, tim duncan, and garnett were top 3 you'd know they look at entirety of career. if someone said lebron, durant, AD, they'd be looking at most recent dominance and ability now.

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Originally Posted by ScoutWithoutClout

i ask this because I've been guilty as a scout of what i thinks happening here. are you "sticking with your scouting report?" i didn't buy into the ad hype at 1st, but its hard not to now because of his development. last year, anthony davis was the youngest player to ever average 20 and 10, not to mention he's competitive on defense. plays inside, and surprisingly to everyone he can stretch the court. you could argue he is a top 3 player easier than he's not top 20. my question is, what would AD have to do to vault himself to top 10 on your list?

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Not sure if you have Synergy, but if you do look at Davis. He has 3 basic moves in his repertoire. Pull-up jumper(almost always on one dribble), straight line drive(almost always on one dribble) to his face up game. His post game just has a quick turn move that results in a hook shot/jump shot/floater, or a one dribble and a layup/dunk attempt if he is close enough. His game is not anywhere close to being that of a superstar. His has game has no variation nothing even close to a counter to those moves if he can't get the advantage he's forced to take a bad contested/off balance attempt.

People are judging by stats, but again I'd argue that is equally as subjective when determining overall talent. Greivis Vasquez was atop of the leader board in assist when he was here and we dealt with injuries.

To answer your question I need him to develop at the very least a really good offensives skill set while improving defensively. Scoring and being skilled offensively isn't the same thing.

So what you're saying is with three moves Davis, in his second season, scored 20 points a game on 51.9% from the field. And this is a bad thing because unlike NBA players, coaches, and front offices YOU HAVE SYNERGY so you can really scout?

Lol the fact that he can get 20 points per game with 3 moves is a feat in itself. And that's what makes Davis' potential scary. And apart of the reason he doesn't have any go to moves is because his combination of body control, touch around the basket, and athletiscism makes up for his lack of skill. He seems to do a ton of little things so well that it all collectively accumulates him into being so great. He'll get 30 points in a game and its hard to remember how because he did a little bit of everything in variety of ways. Just because he isn't your prototypical superstar, shouldn't take away from his status being one now or in the future.

one dimensional scoring isn't always a bad thing. jerry west clips are boring to watch because its the same shot over and over.....but....I'm sure AD will develop over time. he's still young, and don't forget he's new to the position. Hopefully, hell have a hakeem olajuwon type development though

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Not sure if you have Synergy, but if you do look at Davis. He has 3 basic moves in his repertoire. Pull-up jumper(almost always on one dribble), straight line drive(almost always on one dribble) to his face up game. His post game just has a quick turn move that results in a hook shot/jump shot/floater, or a one dribble and a layup/dunk attempt if he is close enough. His game is not anywhere close to being that of a superstar. His has game has no variation nothing even close to a counter to those moves if he can't get the advantage he's forced to take a bad contested/off balance attempt.

People are judging by stats, but again I'd argue that is equally as subjective when determining overall talent. Greivis Vasquez was atop of the leader board in assist when he was here and we dealt with injuries.

To answer your question I need him to develop at the very least a really good offensives skill set while improving defensively. Scoring and being skilled offensively isn't the same thing.

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Just wondering how many moves does Andre Drummond have?

I don't get what people want when they debate him on this. Literally every member of the Nat'l Media, scouting departments, and coaching staffs feel one way about Davis and Da Throne feels another. And you think YOU are gonna be able to sway him????

Let the man have his opinion and just ignore it on the rare occasion when he shares it unprovoked.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I don't get what people want when they debate him on this. Literally every member of the Nat'l Media, scouting departments, and coaching staffs feel one way about Davis and Da Throne feels another. And you think YOU are gonna be able to sway him????

Let the man have his opinion and just ignore it on the rare occasion when he shares it unprovoked.

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First off, welcome back from vacation. Secondly, i agree. I think every debate needs a Da Throne or someone to challange a believed notion. I can undestand why conflict will raise based on statistics and analytics, but thats what makes sports fun. Different opinions being challanged or spoken.

i think the guy has a point, we all know he wasn't that great defensively last season, and a descent number of his baskets were assisted or putbacks. He still has a long ways to go on both ends of the floor. The difference is, we think he'll get better, Da throne doesn't. He looked good today using his strength on a couple of drives and finishing through contact, hopefully he learns to be more aggressive going to the basket.

Yeeeeeee M&M is baaaack

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Originally Posted by Pelifan

i think the guy has a point, we all know he wasn't that great defensively last season, and a descent number of his baskets were assisted or putbacks. He still has a long ways to go on both ends of the floor. The difference is, we think he'll get better, Da throne doesn't. He looked good today using his strength on a couple of drives and finishing through contact, hopefully he learns to be more aggressive going to the basket.

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Literally every single person on the planet except one thinks he will get better - and much better at that.

Yet, despite it being clear as day Da Throne will never change his mind, people keep trying. Spend your time elsewhere I say

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

Not sure if you have Synergy, but if you do look at Davis. He has 3 basic moves in his repertoire. Pull-up jumper(almost always on one dribble), straight line drive(almost always on one dribble) to his face up game. His post game just has a quick turn move that results in a hook shot/jump shot/floater, or a one dribble and a layup/dunk attempt if he is close enough. His game is not anywhere close to being that of a superstar. His has game has no variation nothing even close to a counter to those moves if he can't get the advantage he's forced to take a bad contested/off balance attempt.

People are judging by stats, but again I'd argue that is equally as subjective when determining overall talent. Greivis Vasquez was atop of the leader board in assist when he was here and we dealt with injuries.

To answer your question I need him to develop at the very least a really good offensives skill set while improving defensively. Scoring and being skilled offensively isn't the same thing.

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You have Drummond ranked higher and he is 1000x more limited on offense.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

Literally every single person on the planet except one thinks he will get better - and much better at that.

Yet, despite it being clear as day Da Throne will never change his mind, people keep trying. Spend your time elsewhere I say

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1st welcome back.

2nd I never said he won't get better. Not sure where that has ever been stated by me. The question is how much better vs how much better people will scout against him.

Lastly I take exception to the fact that you(and many other) are trying to portray me as someone that's being bullishly stubborn or lacking an ability to accept when I'm wrong. As if I'm moving the goal post. My case against Davis has always been skill-set related and never about production or efficiency. He was productive and efficient at UK. Which is how he won National Player of the year. Again my opinion has varied a good bit I never thought he'd be a top 50 player yet I have him top 25. To say "it's clear as day" that I'll never change my mind is to approach this topic with your own blinders on. Sometimes it pays to look yourself in the mirror when being critical of others.

This thread is dumb.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

1st welcome back.

2nd I never said he won't get better. Not sure where that has ever been stated by me. The question is how much better vs how much better people will scout against him.

Lastly I take exception to the fact that you(and many other) are trying to portray me as someone that's being bullishly stubborn or lacking an ability to accept when I'm wrong. As if I'm moving the goal post. My case against Davis has always been skill-set related and never about production or efficiency. He was productive and efficient at UK. Which is how he won National Player of the year. Again my opinion has varied a good bit I never thought he'd be a top 50 player yet I have him top 25. To say "it's clear as day" that I'll never change my mind is to approach this topic with your own blinders on. Sometimes it pays to look yourself in the mirror when being critical of others.

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But haven't you moved the goal post? During the season you admitted Davis was better than Drummond. Now here we are in the summer and you have Drummond ahead of Davis. You complain Davis only has 3 moves on offense. Drummond has 0. Heck, you even admitted during the season that Davis deserved to be the No. 1 pick based off his current production.

You say you have changed your opinion of him but before the draft you had Drummond ahead and after 2 years still do based on, gut? They are on the same team now. Why hasn't Drummond beat him out? Skillset. But, I thought skillset was the reason Davis was so low?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

1st welcome back.

2nd I never said he won't get better. Not sure where that has ever been stated by me. The question is how much better vs how much better people will scout against him.

Lastly I take exception to the fact that you(and many other) are trying to portray me as someone that's being bullishly stubborn or lacking an ability to accept when I'm wrong. As if I'm moving the goal post. My case against Davis has always been skill-set related and never about production or efficiency. He was productive and efficient at UK. Which is how he won National Player of the year. Again my opinion has varied a good bit I never thought he'd be a top 50 player yet I have him top 25. To say "it's clear as day" that I'll never change my mind is to approach this topic with your own blinders on. Sometimes it pays to look yourself in the mirror when being critical of others.

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If you haven't changed your tune after the guy had the best season as a 20 yr old ever and a better 2nd season than KG and Duncan, my bet is that you never will. You act like there have been other 19 and 20 yr olds who have come into the league with 8-10 ways to score on grown men.

But you aren't gonna suck me in! I am perfectly fine with one person in the world having a counter opinion. And if you view yourself as open minded, thats cool with me too.

It is good to have a da throne to go against the grain and challenge the popular opinion. However, when the only argument being presented is the "eye test" it tends to frustrate the hell out of people.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

But haven't you moved the goal post? During the season you admitted Davis was better than Drummond. Now here we are in the summer and you have Drummond ahead of Davis. You complain Davis only has 3 moves on offense. Drummond has 0. Heck, you even admitted during the season that Davis deserved to be the No. 1 pick based off his current production.

You say you have changed your opinion of him but before the draft you had Drummond ahead and after 2 years still do based on, gut? They are on the same team now. Why hasn't Drummond beat him out? Skillset. But, I thought skillset was the reason Davis was so low?

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First Drummond is limited in range not ability. He in my opinion has more skills in his wheel house than Davis. The only skill Davis has that Drummond doesn't center around shooting the ball. Drummond has both the quick turning hook and the ability to beat people with a quick 1st step(unlike Davis he can also attack laterally and usually with more than one dribble). He also has a quick spin both directions, with a counter quick turn into a hook, a drop step which either leads to a power dip, or quick turning hook. Saying Drummond has 0 moves is just a lazy defense mechanism.

Again production factors in so most of the credit Davis gets for last year is link to his production. This list isn't about 2013-14 it's about projection for 2014-15.

Who's a more offensively skilled big than Cousins IMO nobody and he's behind Davis and Faried. Do many people think Plumlee has a brighter future than Drummond probably not yet he's playing ahead of Drummond. Team USA depth chart has little to do with guys individual talent nice try though.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

First Drummond is limited in range not ability. He in my opinion has more skills in his wheel house than Davis. The only skill Davis has that Drummond doesn't center around shooting the ball. Drummond has both the quick turning hook and the ability to beat people with a quick 1st step(unlike Davis he can also attack laterally and usually with more than one dribble). He also has a quick spin both directions, with a counter quick turn into a hook, a drop step which either leads to a power dip, or quick turning hook. Saying Drummond has 0 moves is just a lazy defense mechanism.

Again production factors in so most of the credit Davis gets for last year is link to his production. This list isn't about 2013-14 it's about projection for 2014-15.

Who's a more offensively skilled big than Cousins IMO nobody and he's behind Davis and Faried. Do many people think Plumlee has a brighter future than Drummond probably not yet he's playing ahead of Drummond. Team USA depth chart has little to do with guys individual talent nice try though.

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Cool story bro.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

If you haven't changed your tune after the guy had the best season as a 20 yr old ever and a better 2nd season than KG and Duncan, my bet is that you never will. You act like there have been other 19 and 20 yr olds who have come into the league with 8-10 ways to score on grown men.

But you aren't gonna suck me in! I am perfectly fine with one person in the world having a counter opinion. And if you view yourself as open minded, thats cool with me too.

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You are skating around the issue once again. If you are going to interject yourself into this discussion calling me out own up to your comments. When have I ever said Davis won't get better? What about my statement dealing with my issue being with skill set not just production. You are just going to ignore the topic at hand because you know you are wrong. So if you are going to say something be a man and own it, but if you aren't going to allow me to "suck you in" then stay out.

Also better 2nd year how did you come up with that? Duncan won a title while averaging 21 and 11 his 2nd year.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

Cool story bro.

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If you aren't going to add anything to discussion why bother. People poke and poke at me trying to understand my view point, but really are as closed minded as they accuse me of being. I explain myself a every time and when I do it's usually leads to comments like this.

We have already established production in player elevation takes a back seat to skill set for me. I've explain with some detail why I view Davis the way I do same with Drummond. Neither has changed thus far. If you aren't picking my brain to potentially learn something why keep asking? If it so obvious and y'all are all clearly right then there's no need to engage me. Agreed?

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

If you aren't going to add anything to discussion why bother. People poke and poke at me trying to understand my view point, but really are as closed minded as they accuse me of being. I explain myself a every time and when I do it's usually leads to comments like this.

We have already established production in player elevation takes a back seat to skill set for me. I've explain with some detail why I view Davis the way I do same with Drummond. Neither has changed thus far. If you aren't picking my brain to potentially learn something why keep asking? If it so obvious and y'all are all clearly right then there's no need to engage me. Agreed?

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You misunderstood. I don't care what you think. I thought that was obvious? You act like a troll so I treat you like one. You just tried to argue that Drummond has more offensive skill than Davis.

At this point I don't even understand why you are a Pels fan, you hate nearly every move we have made including drafting our franchise player. I hope you know once we start winning you are going to get roasted hard and constantly if you're even still around.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

First Drummond is limited in range not ability. He in my opinion has more skills in his wheel house than Davis. The only skill Davis has that Drummond doesn't center around shooting the ball. Drummond has both the quick turning hook and the ability to beat people with a quick 1st step(unlike Davis he can also attack laterally and usually with more than one dribble). He also has a quick spin both directions, with a counter quick turn into a hook, a drop step which either leads to a power dip, or quick turning hook. Saying Drummond has 0 moves is just a lazy defense mechanism.

Again production factors in so most of the credit Davis gets for last year is link to his production. This list isn't about 2013-14 it's about projection for 2014-15.

Who's a more offensively skilled big than Cousins IMO nobody and he's behind Davis and Faried. Do many people think Plumlee has a brighter future than Drummond probably not yet he's playing ahead of Drummond. Team USA depth chart has little to do with guys individual talent nice try though.

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I was one of those who was and I guess so am a bit wary of ADs claim to becoming the next superstar, I think it's because I've never seen a player like that before so it takes you out of your comfort zone.

I think Drummond is more explosive than Davis, just with his first and second jump, Davis I feel is more length, and I even feel that Drummond could be more effective than Davis in this world cup against certain teams with large front courts like Spain and Lithuania. I don't have the same uneasiness with Drummond because his play as a big is what I'm used to, he could probably have the shaq affect on smaller teams as well. Davis definitely had better guard skills though, and his timing on blocks is unmatched. Honestly I'm not that impressed by his guard skills on offense, like drives and dribble pull ups,(and honestly I wish he'd take less mid range is),I just know that it's relatively better than your typical big.

I trust the experts and believe that he should ends up becoming a top 3 player, I'm just not sure what that's going to look like. That said I think his defensive potential is awesome, and would be estatic if he played a similar role to that at Kentucky, defensive anchor with a moderate level of offensive load

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

You misunderstood. I don't care what you think. I thought that was obvious? You act like a troll so I treat you like one. You just tried to argue that Drummond has more offensive skill than Davis.

At this point I don't even understand why you are a Pels fan, you hate nearly every move we have made including drafting our franchise player. I hope you know once we start winning you are going to get roasted hard and constantly if you're even still around.

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You clearly don't understand the term not caring. Otherwise the discussion would not have progressed.

If/when we start winning if people want to roast me have it. Not sure if you notice, but that process has already started and we aren't winning. Yet I'm still here. Again that just goes to show the pettiness of some individual. If I'm correct I won't be here looking to "roast" anyone because that type of behavior does nothing for me now that I'm an adult.

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Originally Posted by da ThRONe

You clearly don't understand the term not caring. Otherwise the discussion would not have progressed.

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It's progressed? Lol.

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Originally Posted by Mythrol

It's progressed? Lol.

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Yes, but with no help from you.:hihi:

Coach K, needs to sit AD. Two alley oops in a row. His lack of offensive versatility is appalling.

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Originally Posted by DefensiveMind

Coach K, needs to sit AD. Two alley oops in a row. His lack of offensive versatility is appalling.

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Drummond would have NBA Jam dunked them. I don't know I'd you know this but when Drummond makes 3 shots in a row the rim catches fire.

Almost every person I know believes Davis will be a top 10 player this year. Coaches and players talk about Davis like he's already elite and Durant calls him absolutely unbelievable. Davis has never disappointed me. He's the superstar of our team and I'm really excited. He's evolving into something some of us don't even understand yet. Who's better than him at PF? He's better than Griffin, Love, Garnett, Duncan, and Aldridge and Dirk..... You honestly think Portland would get depressed trading LA for AD? What about the clippers? They'd be ok taking Davis over griffin. You think I'm wrong? No way. David is going to be a top 5 by 2015-2016.


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Originally Posted by pelicanchamp

Almost every person I know believes Davis will be a top 10 player this year. Coaches and players talk about Davis like he's already elite and Durant calls him absolutely unbelievable. Davis has never disappointed me. He's the superstar of our team and I'm really excited. He's evolving into something some of us don't even understand yet. Who's better than him at PF? He's better than Griffin, Love, Garnett, Duncan, and Aldridge and Dirk..... You honestly think Portland would get depressed trading LA for AD? What about the clippers? They'd be ok taking Davis over griffin. You think I'm wrong? No way. David is going to be a top 5 by 2015-2016.


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Stop with the hyporbole. He can't be top five if Trey Burke and Steven Adams reach their enormous potential. Besides, superstars can't be judged off of potential, even if they are 21 and doing things not seen in 20 years and adding something new to their game each year. Only young guys who pass my trademarked (c) eye test are allowed to be judged via potential. Get with my program.

I do not know why anyone cares what da throne says at this point. It is obvious how he feels and not relative to any positive discussion. Let the man say whatever he feels and simply ignore it. This happens on darn near every thread. Clearly there is a pattern here. He hates every move we make hates the teams best player whom even Kevin Durant said to look out for. This is the most obvious troll I've ever seen in pelicans disguise.

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Originally Posted by tthier2

I do not know why anyone cares what da throne says at this point. It is obvious how he feels and not relative to any positive discussion. Let the man say whatever he feels and simply ignore it. This happens on darn near every thread. Clearly there is a pattern here. He hates every move we make hates the teams best player whom even Kevin Durant said to look out for. This is the most obvious troll I've ever seen in pelicans disguise.

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What makes it worse is that people know how he feels yet they continue to allow themselves to be riled up by him.

What blows my mind is that we can't just accept a difference of opinion.
It reminds me of when people from different religions argue over who's is more correct. When you negate the other's belief people get very defensive. Only usually it's over something (supposedly) more meaningful than a sport where men throw a ball through a rim.

Also, if I had no idea who any players were and just stumbled into this conversation and was trying to judge who was right and wrong I'd probably agree with daThrone because he is using actual arguments. Everyone else uses some kind of conjecture. Saying "everyone agrees with us" doesn't make you right. saying "If you don't agree by now you never will" doesn't support your claim or refute his. Every time this argument comes up people counter with stats first, which daThrone immediately reminds people that he doesn't put much value into. Nor should anyone. We've seen 'fake stats' before. Who cares if you get great stats if your team loses. Did the Spurs have a single player who averaged more than 16 ppg last season? Stats don't immediately translate to success. They then say "everyone knows how good he is/will be" as if that is a helpful argument. The vast majority who agrees with itself because it is the vast majority does nothing but serve it's own proliferation.

No one aside from Tin_Food even tried to have a conversation but moved toward badgering daThrone for having a difference of opinion. Why? What does it matter to you if he thinks AD isn't as good/going to be as good as you? He brings some valid points that we can look for in AD's development. That's great.

And to the point that he doesn't like the moves we made so he shouldn't be a fan, don't be ridiculous. So we should only be fans of teams who's GMs we like and when the GM changes we should then change the team we root for? I can hate every single move the Pels ever make and root for them. DaThrone isn't rooting for us to lose, he wants us to win but thinks we are going about it incorrectly. Maybe we should listen to him instead of getting upset that he might wake us from our dreamworld.

And what's so silly is that I disagree with DaThrone. Everything I've seen from AD tells me he is a very skilled offensive player. Admittedly I haven't watched a whole lot of Pistons so I can't speak to the comparison between the two but I think if AD gets better at defense this year he will be a great player for our team.

Oh, and just wanted to give a quick kudos to Tin_food for being so awesome to actually have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you. It's easy to get swept up in the overreaction undertow when everyone who agrees with you is so gung-ho on belittling someone.

Religions is a bad, baaaad comparison. You can't prove in any way whatsoever that there is a god (or this or that god or whatever you please), it's a flawed argument that relies solely on faith. Either you have it or you don't, that's the short and long of it.

But, considering that davis had one of the BEST seasons ever by a 20 year old player, considering that he had a better second year than players like garnett or duncan (and it's all quantifiable, you don't need faith to believe it true) it's somewhat annoying to have someone saying he's not talented enough and such. If he doesn't become an inch better he's still one of the better 4s out there...NOW, not in 5-6 years.

I think most people are annoyed because he makes every kind of excuse for players who are, right now, busts (like that utah pg, can't recall his name...bork or something like that) or who wants to argue that a player who has a single good quality (rebounding, and that also is quantifiable) is better than davis. I mean, if he said Nah, me, i only like lebron, durant, dirk and duncan, no way davis is better than those; heck, it's perfectly understandable. When someone says that drummond is better than davis or has more talent (nicely enough, when everything else fails, the talent card is always drawn), after a while, well, it starts irking people. Like going to a colts board and saying that matt flynn is more talented than andrew luck. How many people do you expect to argue something like that, especially coming from a guy who is extremely famous for ALWAYS being the contrarian on this board?

I honestly don't see any point in arguing with him. Would you go argue about religion with someone from the IS? Kinda pointless no? I don't even think he's a troll, i simply think he made his bed and now he has to lie in it. If he wants to believe davis is just another player and that drummond is the saviour of the universe, heck, people centuries ago believed the earth was flat. Not that many years ago people thought jawalrus russell would be a franchise changer. I'll just sit back with a bit of pizza and enjoy people still trying to bandy words with him, since there is always someone falling for it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Religions is a bad, baaaad comparison. You can't prove in any way whatsoever that there is a god (or this or that god or whatever you please), it's a flawed argument that relies solely on faith. Either you have it or you don't, that's the short and long of it.

But, considering that davis had one of the BEST seasons ever by a 20 year old player, considering that he had a better second year than players like garnett or duncan (and it's all quantifiable, you don't need faith to believe it true) it's somewhat annoying to have someone saying he's not talented enough and such. If he doesn't become an inch better he's still one of the better 4s out there...NOW, not in 5-6 years.

I think most people are annoyed because he makes every kind of excuse for players who are, right now, busts (like that utah pg, can't recall his name...bork or something like that) or who wants to argue that a player who has a single good quality (rebounding, and that also is quantifiable) is better than davis. I mean, if he said Nah, me, i only like lebron, durant, dirk and duncan, no way davis is better than those; heck, it's perfectly understandable. When someone says that drummond is better than davis or has more talent (nicely enough, when everything else fails, the talent card is always drawn), after a while, well, it starts irking people. Like going to a colts board and saying that matt flynn is more talented than andrew luck. How many people do you expect to argue something like that, especially coming from a guy who is extremely famous for ALWAYS being the contrarian on this board?

I honestly don't see any point in arguing with him. Would you go argue about religion with someone from the IS? Kinda pointless no? I don't even think he's a troll, i simply think he made his bed and now he has to lie in it. If he wants to believe davis is just another player and that drummond is the saviour of the universe, heck, people centuries ago believed the earth was flat. Not that many years ago people thought jawalrus russell would be a franchise changer. I'll just sit back with a bit of pizza and enjoy people still trying to bandy words with him, since there is always someone falling for it anyway.

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Again though, you're saying it as though it is provable. If it is provable then where is the proof? There are only stats, team success, and the eye test. All three can be either deceptive or subjective. There is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. And that's perfectly okay.

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

Again though, you're saying it as though it is provable. If it is provable then where is the proof? There are only stats, team success, and the eye test. All three can be either deceptive or subjective. There is no way to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt. And that's perfectly okay.

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Determinative proof? No. But stats, success, peer opinion, expert opinion, advanced stats and the eye test (general public) are all weighted evidence. Da ThRONe routinely says outlandish things that differ from everyone and loses in each of those categories (usually overwhelmingly) to everyone but him. Point is he offers nothing in the way of anything credible to even weigh in the favor of his opinion, other than just BS he spews. This is the internet, there is nothing wrong with engaging an idiot.

The guy is literally advocating for Drummond's offense over AD's. That should draw a ban in and of itself.

You can't rank multiple guys above AD when he is widely regarded by most everyone as a top player and provide NO support for your position, other than "because that's how I feel," and expect anyone to take you seriously. I asked for the stats in the last two years to justify these rankings....any stats...yet he has NONE and disregards anything he can't address. I understand not being a 'stats guy,' but you have NOTHING?? He focuses only mindless back and forth banter and doesn't truly offer the 'other side' argument because it's all unsupported BS just for the sake of being different. The guy is full of ****. He knows nothing about basketball. Period. End of story.

People say he knows nothing about basketball, yet his opinion riles people up. Thats what I don't get.

If you truly believe that X person knows nothing about Y, then you wouldn't even acknowledge their words when they spoke on Y, right?

Personally, I think Da Throne has solid basketball knowledge, but he took a stand on this a long time ago and now instead of looking at the issue w/o bias, he looks for everything wrong with AD and everything right with others in order to try to get his hypothesis to hold up. Smart people do this all the time in all fields.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

People say he knows nothing about basketball, yet his opinion riles people up. Thats what I don't get.

If you truly believe that X person knows nothing about Y, then you wouldn't even acknowledge their words when they spoke on Y, right?

Personally, I think Da Throne has solid basketball knowledge, but he took a stand on this a long time ago and now instead of looking at the issue w/o bias, he looks for everything wrong with AD and everything right with others in order to try to get his hypothesis to hold up. Smart people do this all the time in all fields.

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It's a message board dude. I think everyone has heard your "if he doesn't know anything then don't let it bother you" stuff; it's not a hard concept that needs to be repeated 100 times. Some people choose to engage, some don't. If you say you don't then that's fine, but I don't really see how you are rising above it when you constantly repeat the above.

He doesn't lay foundation for his opinions in anything that anyone credible uses, it's just what Da Throne thinks with literally no support. Not only no support, but directly contrary to the support others supply, which is why people take issue and call it what it is, and that's BS. If you are truly above it then why let those who choose to address it affect you?

Stats can be deceiving, but rarely at the outlier level. There haven't been many guys with, for instance, a PER above 25 at age 25 or less who weren't ultimately super-elite players. Here's a list of guys from the 3 point era onwards, sorted by win shares:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...t=&order_by=ws
The vast majority of guys on this list (Jordan, James, Durant, Robinson, Barkley, O'Neal, Wade, Moses Malone, Magic Johnson, etc.) are hall of famers and in many cases all-time greats. There are a few who got derailed by injuries (Amare, Grant Hill, McGrady, Yao Ming) but were regarded as elite talents in their primes. There's one odd case who flamed out for a while who is probably still a HOFer (Vince Carter). There are a few guys who are still playing, two of whom were elite talents and likely HOFs (Bosh, Paul), and 3 younger guys who the jury is still out (Love, Cousins, Davis). There are two guys who I don't regard as elite talents on that list, Brook Lopez who was 25 in his season and only played 533 minutes, and Terrell Brandon, who was 25 in his season and was a nice player whose next best PER was 21.5. If you make the age year 21 season or less, it becomes a much shorter list, just O'Neal, James, Durant, Jordan, and Magic, and Davis. Only James and Davis did it in their age 20 season. I just find it unlikely that he's that much of statistical anomaly.

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Originally Posted by tthier2

I do not know why anyone cares what da throne says at this point. It is obvious how he feels and not relative to any positive discussion. Let the man say whatever he feels and simply ignore it. This happens on darn near every thread. Clearly there is a pattern here. He hates every move we make hates the teams best player whom even Kevin Durant said to look out for. This is the most obvious troll I've ever seen in pelicans disguise.

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1st I don't hate anyone. Not sure how anybody got the impression that my opinions are based on anything personal. If there's hate anywhere on this board it certainly isn't coming from me.

People keep saying my opinions aren't fluid, but they have already changed of Davis and more than likely will continue to change one way or the other. The so if there's an unwillingness to be open minded we are all guilty of it, but of course we won't talk about that.

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Originally Posted by Kurgan

Religions is a bad, baaaad comparison. You can't prove in any way whatsoever that there is a god (or this or that god or whatever you please), it's a flawed argument that relies solely on faith. Either you have it or you don't, that's the short and long of it.

But, considering that davis had one of the BEST seasons ever by a 20 year old player, considering that he had a better second year than players like garnett or duncan (and it's all quantifiable, you don't need faith to believe it true) it's somewhat annoying to have someone saying he's not talented enough and such. If he doesn't become an inch better he's still one of the better 4s out there...NOW, not in 5-6 years.

I think most people are annoyed because he makes every kind of excuse for players who are, right now, busts (like that utah pg, can't recall his name...bork or something like that) or who wants to argue that a player who has a single good quality (rebounding, and that also is quantifiable) is better than davis. I mean, if he said Nah, me, i only like lebron, durant, dirk and duncan, no way davis is better than those; heck, it's perfectly understandable. When someone says that drummond is better than davis or has more talent (nicely enough, when everything else fails, the talent card is always drawn), after a while, well, it starts irking people. Like going to a colts board and saying that matt flynn is more talented than andrew luck. How many people do you expect to argue something like that, especially coming from a guy who is extremely famous for ALWAYS being the contrarian on this board?

I honestly don't see any point in arguing with him. Would you go argue about religion with someone from the IS? Kinda pointless no? I don't even think he's a troll, i simply think he made his bed and now he has to lie in it. If he wants to believe davis is just another player and that drummond is the saviour of the universe, heck, people centuries ago believed the earth was flat. Not that many years ago people thought jawalrus russell would be a franchise changer. I'll just sit back with a bit of pizza and enjoy people still trying to bandy words with him, since there is always someone falling for it anyway.

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The players in question that I "make excuses for" aren't being considered as potentially the best player in the game. They are seen as solid to good starters. If we were talking about Davis as a solid to good starter than the criteria wouldn't be so rigorous and neither would be my critique. Like wise if somebody was calling one of my precious "excused players" a superstar or a top 10 player I would be equally as critical based on my what I see.

Again I don't know how a 35 win season is better than Duncan's title winning season, but ok.

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Originally Posted by saintsinNO

It's a message board dude. I think everyone has heard your "if he doesn't know anything then don't let it bother you" stuff; it's not a hard concept that needs to be repeated 100 times. Some people choose to engage, some don't. If you say you don't then that's fine, but I don't really see how you are rising above it when you constantly repeat the above.

He doesn't lay foundation for his opinions in anything that anyone credible uses, it's just what Da Throne thinks with literally no support. Not only no support, but directly contrary to the support others supply, which is why people take issue and call it what it is, and that's BS. If you are truly above it then why let those who choose to address it affect you?

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I take slight issue because good conversations and topics go askew as 12 people try to change one guys' mind - something that will never happen.

Literally every thread he pops into goes off course, and its not because of him. I am not saying to 'Be above it because I am' , I am saying, 'Lets have good discussions without spending pages trying to convince one guy'. I think that is a reasonable and logical request

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Originally Posted by saintsinNO

Determinative proof? No. But stats, success, peer opinion, expert opinion, advanced stats and the eye test (general public) are all weighted evidence. Da ThRONe routinely says outlandish things that differ from everyone and loses in each of those categories (usually overwhelmingly) to everyone but him. Point is he offers nothing in the way of anything credible to even weigh in the favor of his opinion, other than just BS he spews. This is the internet, there is nothing wrong with engaging an idiot.

The guy is literally advocating for Drummond's offense over AD's. That should draw a ban in and of itself.

You can't rank multiple guys above AD when he is widely regarded by most everyone as a top player and provide NO support for your position, other than "because that's how I feel," and expect anyone to take you seriously. I asked for the stats in the last two years to justify these rankings....any stats...yet he has NONE and disregards anything he can't address. I understand not being a 'stats guy,' but you have NOTHING?? He focuses only mindless back and forth banter and doesn't truly offer the 'other side' argument because it's all unsupported BS just for the sake of being different. The guy is full of ****. He knows nothing about basketball. Period. End of story.

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Yet I did. Again if I know nothing that makes you a greater fool for wasting your time. So we still find ourselves in the same boat. You come into this topic not looking to listen, and get an understanding you just want to ridicule because for some reason or another it makes you feel better about yourself. You have added nothing to this discussion and have come off incredibly rude which is the only thing you have accomplished.

Congrats though because according to you you have won! You should be pleased as punch with yourself.

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Originally Posted by MichaelMcNamara

I take slight issue because good conversations and topics go askew as 12 people try to change one guys' mind - something that will never happen.

Literally every thread he pops into goes off course, and its not because of him. I am not saying to 'Be above it because I am' , I am saying, 'Lets have good discussions without spending pages trying to convince one guy'. I think that is a reasonable and logical request

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Hey Michael, not on twitter, but can you talk on the podcast about what you expect the defense to look like this year with Asik? Expectation, scheme changes, etc. I'm also interested in what you think you can infer from international play in terms of Davis's defense. He's anchored a unit, albeit against non-NBA talent, bereft of quality defenders to a 60ish DRTG. To my eyes, his rotations have been on point, and we're playing a scheme not dissimilar from our own defensive scheme. Does that mean anything?

Also, can you see a scenario in which Eric Gordon is a plus this

I think what he is saying is that we overrate AD with all this massive hype going on...

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Originally Posted by Jabberwalker

What blows my mind is that we can't just accept a difference of opinion.
It reminds me of when people from different religions argue over who's is more correct. When you negate the other's belief people get very defensive. Only usually it's over something (supposedly) more meaningful than a sport where men throw a ball through a rim.

Also, if I had no idea who any players were and just stumbled into this conversation and was trying to judge who was right and wrong I'd probably agree with daThrone because he is using actual arguments. Everyone else uses some kind of conjecture. Saying "everyone agrees with us" doesn't make you right. saying "If you don't agree by now you never will" doesn't support your claim or refute his. Every time this argument comes up people counter with stats first, which daThrone immediately reminds people that he doesn't put much value into. Nor should anyone. We've seen 'fake stats' before. Who cares if you get great stats if your team loses. Did the Spurs have a single player who averaged more than 16 ppg last season? Stats don't immediately translate to success. They then say "everyone knows how good he is/will be" as if that is a helpful argument. The vast majority who agrees with itself because it is the vast majority does nothing but serve it's own proliferation.

No one aside from Tin_Food even tried to have a conversation but moved toward badgering daThrone for having a difference of opinion. Why? What does it matter to you if he thinks AD isn't as good/going to be as good as you? He brings some valid points that we can look for in AD's development. That's great.

And to the point that he doesn't like the moves we made so he shouldn't be a fan, don't be ridiculous. So we should only be fans of teams who's GMs we like and when the GM changes we should then change the team we root for? I can hate every single move the Pels ever make and root for them. DaThrone isn't rooting for us to lose, he wants us to win but thinks we are going about it incorrectly. Maybe we should listen to him instead of getting upset that he might wake us from our dreamworld.

And what's so silly is that I disagree with DaThrone. Everything I've seen from AD tells me he is a very skilled offensive player. Admittedly I haven't watched a whole lot of Pistons so I can't speak to the comparison between the two but I think if AD gets better at defense this year he will be a great player for our team.

Oh, and just wanted to give a quick kudos to Tin_food for being so awesome to actually have a conversation with someone who disagrees with you. It's easy to get swept up in the overreaction undertow when everyone who agrees with you is so gung-ho on belittling someone.

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Bravo!!!!